In blogs and book reviews, I see reference by therapy professionals to the “disgruntled ex-client.” I assume this label is pejorative and the classification perhaps is to warn therapists to create a strong filter when one hovers nearby.
So here’s my warning label: I’m a disgruntled ex-client. My therapy mostly was harmful. Before I’m tuned out, I hope some therapists may consider listening as I speak my piece, so they might find fewer like me at large.
I entered therapy hoping to broaden my social life and to confirm my suspicion that my typical family—wasn’t. I never was in crisis. My past persona was far too obliging and obeisant to authority, but not unlike a significant population percentage. Pre-therapy I had friends, a job, occasional dates and was reasonably cheerful. My total tally in treatment (I hate that word) was just under three years with different clinicians in different formats.
Once in therapy, I bought the full mystique of the psychotherapist as a god with ex-ray omniscience and magic powers. Therapists reinforced my idealization in subtext: with scornful disapprovals, supporting my unrealistic expectations of treatment, pretending to have “the answers” and contradicting my self-reporting.
The worst, most damaging bout was group therapy led by a disdainful psychologist and a syrupy psychiatric nurse. Clients were encouraged to bring-your-own-whine, though often answered with bruising dismissals. The nurse announced “something about you makes me want to kick you.” They ridiculed my own exploration into cognitive theory via David Burns. When I tried to terminate treatment, the leaders’ simmer turned volcanic as the therapists did their best to retain me through withering diagnoses and threats of a dismal future. They negated my perceptions. Defensive and determined, they fired off interpretations like ammunition. I entered therapy seeking more social interaction; I exited feeling contemptible, isolated and unsure of my sanity.
Another psychotherapist gave me what I wanted—I thought. She comforted me as a poor wounded deer cheated out of a loving upbringing. And I left “feeling better” because now I thought I earned my increasingly frequent self-pity.
A third therapist was insightful and respectful. However my undirected meandering led me toward more self-pity and early-life obsession.
So I’m left to untangle this large knot left by so-called treatments. I feel hoodwinked. I combed professional literature and was dismayed by the denigration of unsuccessful clients and the limited discussion about harmful therapy. We’re labeled resistant, and our dissatisfaction is labeled as transference. Or we’re conflating our internal pain with an external relationship. Or we’re difficult cases who don’t want to change or too unstable to be redeemed. There’s scarce conjecture I reacted sanely to my therapists’ distortions.
As I read how therapists are trained to think, attitudes toward difficult cases, and the defensiveness toward official complaints, it’s clear why therapy left me feeling worse.
It’s entertaining for this alien-from-another-planet, otherwise known as a consumer, to survey the professional literature for a peek at how the profession reduces and codifies its world. The more white-hot and chaotic the human experience, the more detached the exploration. Intuition sometimes is forced through a scientific mold. When “real life” appears in a psychology textbook, discussion can be absurdly robotic in an “I feel anger when you ….” sort of way. The milieu is so artificial, jargonized and removed from life in the living room, no wonder therapists see DSMs rather than human beings. We’re not two people, we’re a dyad; I’m not talking to my doctor; I’m the dysthymic projecting my mother. There is a pervasive bell-jar perspective of the therapeutic relationship. With all this categorizing and theorizing, I’d expect the horse to become the zebra.
I’ve walked into a funhouse of twisted mirrors. My personality quirks are a now a disease. Stone silence—considered the cold shoulder in civilian life—is now a blank slate and a path toward mental health. Sarcasm, intimidation and berating are labeled as treatment. And most damaging—my “no” means “yes” because the therapist sees me as the helpless child incapable of rational observation. The professional texts HAVE transformed me from a functional woman into a patient after all.
Antagonism in professional literature toward “difficult cases” seems prevalent. As I read about these, I see images of frenzied, unanchored souls challenging the psychologist’s full, brute force to tame them. I am amused to juxtapose this trope with the “difficult case” my therapists perceived me to be.
One textbook presents a treatment dialog between a doctor and a “schizoid” client wishing to terminate. The doctor smacks down every client communication with diversions– argument, interpretation and accusations. The doctor’s summary commentary condemns his ex-client as primitive, borderline, paranoid, controlling and unable to read reality. Any sane person might be angry at this doctor’s stonewalling. At least in this snippet, this “schizoid” client read the situation just fine: his doctor was hostile, unhelpful and mechanically unreal.
Therapy failure is frequently blamed on resistance. The swath of literature devoted to resistance gives me images of a full-tilt wrestling ring bout. That’s juxtaposed by another frequent term, non-compliance, which evokes a stern, disapproving super-parent. Literature attributes these resistances to internal devils like fear of facing fears, self-deception, loss of freedom or even desire to manipulate the therapist. I won’t argue with these ideas, at least the first two. But this noncompliance, disobedience perception gives me pause. Literature I sampled predominantly focused on a battle of the consulting room, a bell jar mentality, as if the client lives there full-time. Discussions only grazed upon a client’s larger social system and its obstacles to change. It underappreciated the daunting problem-solving of new behavior (such as losing one’s job or spouse), skill development, the turmoil of role and hierarchy shifts, unpredictable outcomes and the dilemma of compromise (i.e. choosing between the tyrannical boss or a dismal job market), to list a few scenarios. Haven’t psychologists ever observed an animal pack duke it out for dominance? Resolving internal conflicts are only the start of reinventing oneself. I wonder how many theorists have vaulted their own confinements to understand this.
Some resistance articles glaringly omit practitioner errors and misdirected agendas. (I wish I HAD resisted a therapist’s silly solution that caused family distress thereafter.)
However I see the therapist-as-parent as the most misguided treatment model. When I’m a 35-year-old, talking to a 45-year-old, we’re two adults. If the doctor play acts I’m the child and he’s the parent, we both travel to a fantasy land which undermines my autonomy and our authenticity together. He is reinforcing my self-image as powerless – a damaging metaphor for my life but even more harmful when he fails to control his agenda and anger. Also he communicates that he holds some magic secret I’ll never fully receive. “Reparenting” is a flawed concept—adults no longer have a child’s hardwiring, and can’t return back in time. We can only go forward.
Reading professional literature led me to feel I was sold on a subordinating, hired relationship aspiring toward strength and authenticity. With my own tendency toward deference, a game of follow-the-leader-blind-folded undermined my growth. And why should I seek experts, pretending to have answers, in order to understand that experts don’t have answers?
Psychotherapy’s mythology is further inflated by our cultural zeitgeist. The media elevates the practitioner to a near-shaman who can alleviate the pain of break-ups, unemployment, pet deaths and tense holiday dinners. Therapy is promised to raise our lives from weary to celestial, remove unwanted pounds and exorcise our vices. Is your sister trashing your premises or your spouse wasting away on the couch? Send them to a therapist who’ll carry the lugs.
We need this easement. So no wonder we blindly obey, and no wonder therapists fall off the shaman pedestal. But I fear the large holes in the literature of self-critique flag that some clinicians could be roped in by their own legends.
Years later as I’m left with many untruths on top of my own irrational remnants, I have a large job demoting my dubious healers. Reinterpreting harmful therapy is layered and complicated, since I fell into a rigged game. I unload the weight of my therapists’ self-delusions, similar to recovering from a cult. I reframe their unclaimed anger. I regain my selfhood after feeling invalidated by irrational authority. I understand how I suspended my own judgment to surrender my free will to someone else. I awaken to how I was defrauded by fake wizards, realizing wizards don’t exist at all. It’s daunting to face the elements as my own protector and rescuer. I have to relinquish fairy tales that I so needed. But didn’t the therapists corroborate them?
Now that I’ve had my gripes, can I muse what I would do as my own therapist and client?
I would make it clear from early in the process that problems were mine to solve, and psychotherapy, at best, can only provide a few tools.
I would avoid all paternalism, regression, contrived sympathy and learned-dependence in favor of an adult-adult dynamic.
I would balance discussion of weaknesses and pain with discussion of strength, health and optimism.
I would explore and support improvement of my physical health. (I have visible conditions that contribute to fatigue and depression which psychotherapists never bothered to notice.)
I would reinforce a present-life reason for any childhood excavation, so therapy doesn’t become an undirected self-indulgence.
I’d infuse the therapy interaction with a large dollop of real-world common sense. Realizing when I’m driving, as opposed to being driven, is a cornerstone of mastery.
Most importantly, I would create conversation where “no” means “no,” and “I need to leave” is respected. Complaints are regarded as legitimate rather than psychotherapeutic events, and my communications are heard and heeded rather than invalidated via diagnosis.
I challenge more professionals to learn from clients, particularly us treatment failures. Assume most of us are thoughtful beings with credible perceptive powers. Our dissatisfactions aren’t trivial background grumbling. We’re talking about consequences that extend long into our lives.
Further Reading
Bates, Yvonne, editor (2006) Shouldn’t I Be Feeling Better By Now? Client views of Therapy. Houndmills, Basingstoke, Hampshire, UK: Palgrave McMillan. A diverse collection of client essays exploring how subtle and not-so-subtle ways psychotherapy turned harmful, with further discussion for professionals of the many issues the accounts evoke.
Dineen, Dr. Tana (2001) Manufacturing Victims, What the Psychology Industry Is Doing to People. Westmount, Canada : Robert Davies Multimedia Publishing. Dineen critiques the “victim psychology” and pathologizing mindset which creates a detrimental influence on our culture.
Elkind, Sue Nathanson (1992) Resolving Impasses in Therapeutic Relationships. New York: The Guilford Press. A compassionate exploration of stalemates in psychotherapy which narrates how both clinician and client vulnerabilities might contribute to treatment breakdown.
House, Richard (2003) Therapy beyond Modernity. Deconstructing and Transcending Profession Centered Therapy. London: H. Karnac (Books) LTD. House deconstructs widely-held precepts of the psychotherapy profession through questioning what he calls “the regime of truth” in search of a new paradigm. A centerpiece of this book is House’s extensive focus on the literature of actual client experiences.
Sands, Anna (2000) Falling for Therapy, Psychotherapy from a Client’s Point of View. Houndmills, Basingstoke, Hampshire, UK: MacMillan Press LTD. Analyzing two contrasting treatments, a client reflects on the harm and help from therapy.
[…] the profession seems to be to feedback from clients. To that end is my modest entry into the fray: https://disequilibrium1.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/a-disgruntled-ex-psychotherapy-client-speaks-her-pie… Tags: alliance, alliance patterns, Couples, Early Change, Norway, routine alliance […]
Great post. Thanks so much for bringing these unfortunate realities to our attention. Your experience really brings to life the need for routine consumer feedback about benefit and fit of mental health services. I posted a link to our listserv and I linked from my most recent blog.
Thanks, Barry. I can see value to feedback on more than one level. Beyond information for the therapist, it would have granted me power as an active collaborator in my own growth.
Things went astray partly because I had an inaccurate expectation of therapy as something “done to me.”
Hi there,
Enjoyed reading your post.
I am a Counsellor in Auckland, New Zealand, and have met first-hand dozens of people who had previously been to a myriad of different therapists for little or no (or worse) result. I often say to them “while I might from time visit your past, I have no intention of seeting up camp there and moving in”.
The relief on their faces is palatable.
I also say to my clients that if we haven’t had some sort of meaningful progress on the original presenting issue or issues in 8-12 sessions, then they need to fire me, as clearly I am not the right person for them – this time, they look a little gob-smacked, and then laugh, perhaps wishing that such an opportunity had been granted to them with other practitioners.
I utilise a session by session evaluation tool with each client, and when they come back, I assess their progress from the last session to the current one.
If we can’t measure our progress, we can’t ultimately help anyone.
Kind Regards,
Steve Taylor
24-7 Ltd
ww.24-7.org.nz
Steve, I would like that. It would help me toward the direction of standing on my own to feet.
Exactly – the championing of client soveriegnty can be achieved without having to therapeutically abandon the client.
I have an easy to follow rule: I don’t go where I am not invited to go, and I invite my clients to “bounce” me any time they like if I am heading into a cul-de-sac, when where they want me is on their main road.
I have another name for the DSM:
“Damn Stupid Motive”
In Norway, where I live, there isn’t any public talk about the fact that psychotherapy may make clients worse.
But three years ago a book about CDOI was published. And this year the Journal of the Norwegian Psychological Association has printed some articles about user influence in therapy. My general impression is, though, that we have to wait for a long time before this becomes a reality among most of therapists.
About ten years ago I was in therapy. I was so traumatized of that “treatment” that I still suffer because of it. And there is no help program for traumatized clients.
Sigrun, I’m sorry you went through this. Though my harmful therapy was relatively subtle, it is a years-long process distancing from its effects. I’ve found some comforts along the way in reading (Therapist by Ellen Plasil is a book about a recovery from extreme abuse) and talking to others.
This Boston organization facilitates networking. Conversations with others have been of great relief to me: http://www.therapyabuse.org/about_us.htm
This organization has resources and a forum:
http://www.advocateweb.org/
Wishing you well. Friends discussed that there are rewards and discoveries in fighting through the trauma.
Thank you for the information and support.
I’ve met supportive people on the Internet since I began to blog two and a half years ago. This summer I also started a closed blog for people with bad therapy experiences (we link to your blog there, but we only write in the Scandinavian languages).
A journalist in the Journal of the Norwegian Psychological Association, who had read my blog, asked me some time ago if I could write in the journal. I wrote about this topic – when therapy harms. It was published this month, and my former therapist reads the journal.
Here’s a book written by a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst on subtle manipulation in therapy, “Gaslighting, the Double Whammy, Interrogation and Other Methods of Covert Control in Psychotherapy and Analysis”: http://amzn.to/awsLIQ
Thank you for the the book title–I ordered it–and congratulations getting the journal article published. I assume it will be in Norwegian, but if it’s English, I’d hope to read it.
I sent you an email about another discussion that’s beginning.
Yes, it’s in Norwegian.
And thanks for the email.
Autobiographical book about a bad therapy: “When Boundaries Betray Us” http://amzn.to/bnGCIF
When the book was pubished, a therapist called the author, a professor of theology, “the client from hell”.
Although I don’t see the world in the spiritual way as the author does, I think she makes some good observations of the relationship between professionals and clients.
Sigrun, I did read that. I had difficulty reacting to it, because I was never clear what happened to turn the relationship so sour. However the author’s feeling of betrayal signals to me she was led down the garden path in some fashion. The mere fact therapy can feel like an intimate relationship–but isn’t–can make it problematic.
I did start the Dorpat book and think it’s excellent. The phrasing of something, a tone of voice CAN establish a hierarchy that ultimately diminishes the client.
Great post, and I’m sure a lot of ‘disgruntled’ clients will feel relieved to know they’re not alone. You may have seen (if you tracked Barry Duncan’s link) that there are a number of communities of therapists now who are disgruntled by the patriarchal mantel and for-your-own-good attitude that many use as a shield, and the wishy-washy, anything-goes, passivity that others skate by on.
Steam has been building from the inside at the same time that ex-clients are finding each other on the ‘outside’. Research and magazine articles are being published about it. Time for a next wave in therapy, we hope. If you don’t mind, I’d like to quote some of what you’re saying and provide a link to your post from my website. Is that okay with you?
I’d be more than delighted for you to post this link and/or quote from this article. It’s lovely to see the conversation.
Thanks for posting this. People need to know how dangerous bad therapy can be. I’ve got a formal complaint pending against a bad therapist. Once that process is completed, I will blog about it with all the gory details. Ideally I can link to your site too – spread the word!
Margaret, good luck with your complaint. Therapists complained against often use hardball strategies to discredit their clients, painting them as delusional, etc. As has been pointed out, often the client has presented no evidence of this so-called delusion until she files a formal complaint.
I lost my grievance, a failure to refer. He covered two bases accusing me of being delusion AND insisting his actions were for my benefit.
My larger battle has been within my own mind and emotions. I’m determined now not to let this experience scar any more of my life. I’ve found the most clarity talking to others who’ve been through it through this:
TELL:
http://www.therapyabuse.org/index.htm
Sorry for the necessity of it, but please let me know about your blog. If you haven’t found this already, another friend is doing just that.
http://wisdomovertime.wordpress.com/
Best~
Free Web Conference for the Public: “How to Know If You’ve Found the Right Therapist”:
http://www.goodtherapy.org/what-is-a-good-therapist-web-conference.html
Hi. I just found you and glad I did. I have a blog “Multiple Personalities Don’t Exist” from the title, you can surmise that I had a bout with a psychiatrist that believes personalities do exist.
Thanks for your post. I’ve put a link on my blog to your site. You have interesting people following you and I am relieved to read their opinions. It’s easy to feel alone as an ex-disgruntled. Cheers, Jeanette Bartha
http://www.jeanettebartha.wordpress.com
Hi Jeanette, thanks for taking a look. I have come across reading that does agree that multiples have been a concoction of the therapy industry. So many fads, so much damage. We’re not alone. I just started to read your blog and will add a link to my page.
Best
Your thoughtful comment on my blog triggered my unsolicited reading of yours. The wise questioning of what I wrote is reflected in what you have written here. Thank you.
Thank you. I do plead guilty to being a bit provocative, because I did think your blog written with generosity and covers topics not talked about enough. Thanks for your good spirit.
I call it “the aftermath”. The wierd thing is, I forget I function better, feel better, work better when not submitting my every move, inner or outer, to the “interpretation” of another. Then I find myself trawling boards like these and remembering… myself.
I’ve been raped physically, emotionally and spiritually in therapy. I’ve successfully pursued lawsuits, fired therapists who’d galloped into the “transfererence/countertransference woods” much too greedily. I once actually fired a guy who didn’t know he was hitting on me! Yes….and ladies, anyone who’s been out on a Friday or has read one of those 70s pick-up manuals knows exactly what I mean: Laugh too hard at my bad jokes, mirror my body language, make sure mine is the last appointment of the day.
Actually had to fire that boy twice: “Dr. Y, I will not see you in a psychotherapeutic setting nor will I pay you for your services any further as I am uncomfortable with the level of sexual tension in the room after 3 sessions. I am not seeking transference-based therapy and ask that you please refer me to a suitable colleague.” Got a phone call begging me to see him, he had an opening…Friday at 5pm.
Never got a referral.
These days, I look at it this way: Sometimes you still want a second, non-invested opinion on things in your life. When I hire a therapist, I’m hiring someone to SHOW UP. By this I mean: Be 100% present with me and the problem du jour. I do not expect agreement, I expect tactful honesty. I do not expect expertise, I expect someone to know a little more than I do. Like a Himalayan trek guide: I expect you to have been at least halfway further up the designated mountain than I have.
Like when I hire a car mechanic: I’d prefer it if we both drive Hondas. But he (or she) absolutely MUST know more about her Honda than I do about mine. What the blink am I talking about? I want my therapist to know more about their inner weather than I do about mine; because I expect them to be able to SHOW UP when I’m foundering AND to be able to honestly say, if or when it becomes true: “You know what, I’ve reached the end of my ability.”
I used to train horses and I used to tell my clients (the owners): My job is to make myself obsolete. If you still need me in x years, I haven’t done my job and you should not pay me. When I realized the horses were quicker to grasp the concept than the owners, I got out of the business. The owners wanted a dependency to make them feel safe(r). After a point, it was a false safety and I found, at least in the kind of work I did, that I was firing at least one $700/month client each week. Hard to eat on those numbers, but it was the right thing to do.
As a culture, we are primed religiously and politically for “redemptive dependencies” and they can be bugger-all to relinquish. A while ago, in therapeutic circles, there was the idea of the “good enough” mother. We need to put forth the idea of the “good enough” life, the “good enough” solution to the problem. This is not to say that we don’t strive for excellence!
But I have crippling PTSD and I probably always will. My brain has been rewired. I can spend my energy raging against that, trying to fix it. Or I can take a good look at the new new territory, accept that my “inner furniture” has been rearranged, and turn my attention to what I still want to accomplish.
For I have learned that we grow NOT in succeeding, but in striving. As absurdist playwrite said: “Try. Fail. Try again. Fail better.”
In the permission to “fail” we find the freedom to fly. At times, other will fly with us. At others, we fly alone. But we must shatter the bell jar and turn from navel contemplation. Sylvia Plath killed herself, remember.
But if we can find, somewhere, the strength to survey our territory and say, “YES! I see it.” And not turn away, even when it rots, then we become warriors of the soul. We may not win. But we will not regret.
(Sorry. Think I was possessed by Churchill a moment there. Fellow posters, I so deeply know your pain and the temptation to surrender and be pulled under. You need not fight if you are too weary. Sometimes just floating IS enough. Others WILL come: A voice in the wilderness, a book falling off a shelf, and overheard conversation. Even a wild woman posting on an old string like this. These waves and tempests tossing you must have an end. Be sure you do not confuse yourself with thrashing too much.)
Nuf Sed.
Ann, I understand what you’re saying, “wild woman!” Your process as you describe it is similar to mine.
I know this is from some years ago, but thank you. I have a lot of work to do receiving and appreciating a ‘good enough life’ but actually I think this very phrase will be an invaluable tool. I recently found that I have a brain that work in a funny way – my working memory is terrible unless I can compensate with (in my case) usually written or visual instructions. I have done this for myself without being aware of it…but believe me, the fact that I saw and read this is worth 20x someone speaking to me. So keep your fingers crossed that it might go in this time.
ps: YAAAHOOOOO Sigrun. You GO girl. Excellent work.
Wonderful post, Ann. It was refreshing to read a post by someone who is strong in her recovery. You blew me away. My blog stating that Multiple Personalities Don’t Exist attracts people who want to disagree with me and argue that, yes it does because I have it! It is a syrupy-brown mire to swim in and it goes beyond having a difference of opinion. We have a difference in our willingness to decompensate for the attention of a therapist.
Is anyone able to give names of articles, blogs, or anything else? I am learning much about people like me who have been hurt by therapy, but most people want to be anonymous.
And thanks for posting TELL. I didn’t know of it. The essays are very helpful.
Best. JB
p.s. thanks for the link to my blog. I am doing so much reading, writing, and networking that I can’t keep up!
Ann, I wished I’d been more effusive-loved your post too.I can tend to slide into self-pity about how therapy taught me to self-pity, and yes, I’m bolstered by the strong, I’m-gonna-be-OK posts. Bad therapy’s best lesson seems to be teaching clients how to be good victims.
Jeanette, happy to make the link. I highly recommend TELL, and I’ve been thoroughly impressed by the smart, insightful contacts I’ve made through them.
“Bad therapy’s best lesson seems to be teaching clients how to be good victims.”
I know this is an old thread, but I though it important to pull out this quote. Absolutely spot on.
Especially when you consider the etymology of the word “victim”: “person or animal killed as a sacrifice”.
‘Victims’ (the reason we’re in therapy after all) are sacrificed on the alter of ‘the greater good’ – meaning that we keep the predators amongst civil society busy revictimizing previous (and designated) victims so that the ‘normal’ norm aren’t threatened by them, nor inconvenienced by us. “If you’re torn, beaten and bleeding, please scream quietly so you don’t bother anyone.”
Like you disequilibrium, I was overly (stupidly!) “obliging and obeisant to authority”.
“The more white-hot and chaotic the human experience, the more detached the exploration. Intuition sometimes is forced through a scientific mold. When “real life” appears in a psychology textbook, discussion can be absurdly robotic in an “I feel anger when you ….” “
Odd thing is, all the therapists I saw spent all their efforts convincing me my fears were exaggerated. How then to explain that I was later warned (after an incident that once again proved this wasn’t true – by a minister no less) to change my name and never let my mother find me.
In therapy-land there are, apparently, no serial killers nor mass murderers nor sadists nor torturers that we have to learn how to recover from: only the type of people for whom “I feel anger when you …” would be the start of a reasonable discussion.
birdfeeder, your post is powerful, thank you! I really have nothing to add, except a thought that keeps recurring to me. I think therapists/psychoanalysts play down reality, because they are unconsciously afraid of their own parents and their own rage towards them and therefore perpetuate the vicious cycle of denial. Since therapy is built on an authoritarian construct, guess who always wins? The “parents”.
I’m sorry you for what you lived for as well as treatment you received. I think you and 1234nyc are right. It’s easier for therapists to deny everything because they often seem unequipped to deal with their client’s realities. I too had small scale experiences in what you described–therapists brushing off things I needed to deal with.
Yes, the “I feel anger” training I received was insane. I can’t imagine any real life setting that this would be an effective response. It turns us into robots.
I found time, distance, and taking back my life the best healers. I doubt any therapy would have accelerated healing for me because it only enforced the notion of controlling pseudo-authorities. Subordinating myself to these superparents only made things worse. Once I rejected them, and saw what a game it was, I started to feel better. 🙂 .
(This is a replacement of my own earlier post, because I did the “reply” thing wrong.)
I hope you enjoy therapyisacon.wordpress.com 🙂
Congratulations on the launch. I’ll link to you and look forward to your comments. Good reading list.
There is sufficient evidence from professionals, within and beyond psychology, and a growing body of articulate and insightful testimonials by ex-clients, such as your own, to assert unequivocally that psychotherapy is not a science and therefore has no right to pass itself off as in any way related to medical treatment.
Rather therapy is a moralistic religion or, as you say, a kind of cult, that eschews reality — wherein lay most ‘psychological’ problems and solutions — and instead trades in a peculiarly American mythology that idealizes self and relationships (especially therapy itself) and as such fosters the very self-deceptions it claims to remedy.
As a recovering Freudian who spent 16 years as a master’s level ‘helping professional,’ including sojourns in two doctoral programs (psychology and sociology, respectively), I very mich admire the insights you have attained after only a relatively brief involvement as a seeker of therapy.
However it concerns me that you still seem invested in wanting to find the perfect therapist. I invite you to consider that such a God simply does not exist and would not charge you to listen to you if she or he did exist. I further invite you and all other interested parties to come together in solidarity to seek alternatives to therapy.
Therefore please contact me @ jeffreysh@earthlink.net so we can begin to explore ideas, and thank you for your brave and extremely well-thought out and well-written revelations. . . .
Jeff, I’m always interested to hear from someone who invested heavily in the profession and then abandoned it.
Actually, I’m not invested…at all…in finding the perfect therapist, or any therapist. I listed my “ideal” therapy, which is self-care, because I didn’t want to criticize without countering with some kind of constructive alternative.
As I stated in the piece, I do think as individuals we’re seeking someone or something to ease our burdens. This sounds like a rich conversation and I’ll write when I find a little more time.
An article I wrote in the Journal of the Norwegian Psychological Association is now available on the Internet. Unfortunately Google is a bad translator, so I don’t know whether it is possible to understand for non-Scandinavians http://bit.ly/fr7N2Q
Sigrun, congratulations on its publication. I understood the majority of it, with only a small section of it and some titles confusing. (I had the most trouble with the third paragraph, your account of what happened.) However, I did appreciate your point about more conversation needed and agree that it’s extremely difficult to find professionals who understand after harmful therapy.
Even in computer-translation I found it very well written.
I was also interested in the books and authors you mention–is anything available in English?
Praise to you for proposing this conversation with the profession and praise to the editors of the journal for publishing this article.
Did you mean from “I am among those that perform poorly …?”
I write that I’m amongst those clients who function badly in a therapy where the therapist “knows better” than the client herself what’s best for her. I did not get help with the problem that I primarly sought therapy for (childhood abuse). In the fourth year the therapist said that “we” don’t work with abuse in (t)his therapy. I went into a state of emotional numbness because I was shocked. I became cronically ill. I felt I had been deceived.
The books I mention are not translated into English, as far as I know. “The client – the forgotten therapist” is on CDOI, as developed by Barry Duncan and Scott Miller, written by Norwegian contributors.
Tom Andersen was a Norwegian psychiatrist. His “samforskning” literally means co-research – between therapists and former clients. I don’t know whether he wrote on this subject in English. Maybe you could google his name and “co-research”. A Finnish psychologist writes a little bit here: http://www.nfft.no/site/bilder/eija-liisa%20rautiainen%20.pdf
Sigrun
That’s the paragraph. Actually, what I understood was close-but the translation interfered a bit. By and large, the computer “interpreter” was clear and literate, and I was able to read the article. I’ve read another book by Duncan and Miller. This co-research concept is great, and I hope what is learned is shared in other languages.
I’m not aware of any here, but then I have no insider knowledge. But the professional journal articles I have seen, starting at square one, by wondering whether therapy can be harmful at all, are discouraging.
Therapist “knows better.” I could probably write a mountain on that theme. But I reflect back to the excellent Dorpat book you recommended.
Sigrun, thanks for the good article. We need more of them. I wish the books you mention were translated. I will take a read of those that are. We have to keep pressuring publishing houses. I’ve had a book on the market for a year – with a literary agent – hard to sell a memoir about bad therapy. Even with an agent, it’s hard to find a publisher. Could be the subject matter as well. lol The working title is: Remembering Lies: How My Psychiatrist Coerced Me into Believing I had Multiple Personalities.
It’s lonely out here in the debunking multiple personalities movement!
Sigrun I hope you get some thoughtful responses, and Jeanette, I hope you find your publisher.
For some reason, the following was not accepted at the GoodTherapy page on “50 Warning Signs of Questionable Therapy”, so I’m trying here:
Here are some items on the web that seem worthwhile for therapy clients, former clients, and therapists alike to read and think about:
http://www.psychotherapy.net/blog/title/the-lake-wobegon-effect A blog entry about the “lake wobegon effect” from a study where therapists rated their psychotherapy skills.
http://www.42online.org/node/109 An article by a therapist about the conflict between independent therapists’ desire for autonomy and accountability.
Thanks Mary. Those post offer much to think about. I do wonder about these evaluations because I see a gulf of difference between therapy being a temporary salve for life’s pain, and offering some concrete strategies for exploring real improvements. My therapy, unfortunately, only offered the former, and which both my therapists and I failed to realize.
I think “50 Warning Signs” often rejects links. However you’re always welcome to post here.
I should post my own link:
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=43065&cn=91
Thanks for the info that 50 Warning Signs often rejects links. I had previously posted something with a link, so when this one didn’t appear the first time I tried, I thought I had made a mistake and tried again, but with the same non-result. Perhaps different moderators make different judgment calls.
They’ve rejected my links too, only to accept them when I included them in a post as a description rather than a hyperlink. It’s probably a general rule to stem potential shilling or abuse.
Though this article is a slog, it’s an interesting look at, among other things, the foundation of the therapeutic relationship.
http://www.criticalmethods.org/hook.htm
Ummm. make that http://www.therapistabandonment.com
Its new. What can I say…?
Ummm. make that http://www.therapistabandonment.com
oops
Okay, somehow the first comment I left disappeared. Too bad because it was long.
I wanted to thank you for your blog and say that I, too, had a negative therapy experience which has impacted my life. I’ve also filed a formal complaint and am waiting for the results of the ethical investigation.
I won’t re-type my whole story, but anyone who is interested in visiting my brand new site http://www.therapistabandonment (which also deals with other issues or harmful therapy) is just recently up and running. I will post my whole story there soon.
I believe this is an important topic and want to provide a support forum, gain information and hopefully write a book about my experience and the experiences of others — my attempt to heal and promote public awareness and self-advocacy.
My educational and professional background is in the field of psychology and counseling which gives me sort of a unique perspective. I can definitely say that therapy was a deeply damaging experience for me.
Again, thanks for your blog.
Ellery, so sorry you had this experience, and I hope you find solace in what others are saying on this topic.
It’s a long journey, but I believe it’s quite possible to pull away from a deeply wounding experience in therapy. Once I started reading professional literature I realized the destructiveness not only came from the therapist’s lack of judgment, but also that his training was so abstract and theoretical that he lost perspective about the everyday “human” factor between the two of us.
I feel strongly too that therapy is far “oversold,” rarely accomplishing as much as we’re led to believe. I think both professionals and the public are pulled in by this delusion.
I also think therapy can actually REINFORCE depression, with its emphasis on hurts, slights and imperfections, and its creation of artificial relationships that encourage dependence and idolization.
Another article that explores some of this further:
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=482&e=43065
I found great assistance with this organization that facilitates conversations between consumers who’ve been through this. It’s been such a blessing to share experiences:
http://www.therapyabuse.org/
I have to fight hard not to get depressed how therapy trained me to be so depressed. Depending on my mood, it’s a vicious or comical circle.
Best
disequlibrium1
Lots of intelligent thoughtfulness here, which helps me as I’m trying to decide whether or not to leave my psychoanalysis (heavy-duty, five times a week, Kleinian). Three years on, I feel fine but she’s in denial about it. I cut off one day and she practically had a heart attack. I’m going down to three days a week in Sept. so now I’m ‘resistant, deceiving myself’ etc. I’m not. I feel fine, all my friends agree I’m fine, my family life has been transformed and my only worry is a therapist who won’t let me go (or even taper down) gracefully. I don’t want to be the kind of analysand who slams the door and disappears, because that does no justice to all that we had, and all she’s done–but it’s beginning to look as if there’s no alternative. All advice appreciated!! Disheartened
Alice, I can only reply as a friend, not a professional, but from what you describe, it seems that the tables are turned and the therapist now is asking you to take care of her–on your money. As I described in my story, therapists can have their own “resistance” to clients leaving them, and at worst, try all sorts of manipulation to prevent it.
Mine seriously put me down which left me very confused on top of my previous vulnerability. You’ve paid your bills and kept the contract and I don’t think you owe her anything beyond a thank you and goodbye, leaving her to work out her apparent issue.
The “kind of analysand” we are is THEIR label. The bottom line is living life, not the therapy room.The bonds in therapy unfortunately can turn cult-like if the therapist is unchecked.
If you’re looking for more peer support, I found http://www.therapyabuse.org helpful. I understand your current situation as more an entanglement than outright abuse, but it sounds like your therapist has abandoned her professional responsibility in favor of her needs.
I’m happy to read that you were helped in therapy, feel good and ready to move on. Sounds like something to celebrate.
I’ve added a new essay, under the pen name Madeline Aimes, at Mentalhelp.net:
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=482&e=43065
Alice, I say: just bail. You’ve had enough, you are ready to move on. It’s your life, your time, your money. It doesn’t matter what the therapist thinks of your decision.
This is a wonderful and very much needed post. I am saying this both, as a therapist and as a former therapy patient. I know first hand what bad therapy feels like and also what it feels like to be violated by a therapist. I had experiences similar to those that the author is describing here and was insulted and humiliated by being objectified and infantilized by some of my therapists. Having experienced that, I swore to never replicate it with my own patients. My beliefs about how people should not be treated in therapy were not met with enthusiasm by my colleagues, who preferred to remain defensive about their traditional approach to doing therapy work. They were just seeing me as an odd ball.
On the other hand, I don’t see the whole picture exactly how the author sees it. I know, also from experience, that even though we are not helpless children in relationships with our therapists, but a therapist-patient relationship is certainly a power-imbalanced one, where the therapist holds more psychological power because he is in a position of a helper and the patient is in a position of someone who receives help. On top of that, the patient opens up to the therapist, not the other way around. This makes the patient a more vulnerable one in the relationship which, in turn, creates dependency whether the patient likes it or not, so we cannot speak of this relationship as the relationship between equals.
I would like to do a little self-disclosure to illustrate my point. My last therapist engaged in a very close personal relationship with me, and at some point we terminated therapy and started seeing each other outside of therapy settings. I was confused about the nature of our relationship and this confusion resulted in a profound trauma that I am still trying to heal. I did not feel at all that we were equal adults. There were certainly adult parts of me and him that were relating to each other on one level, but on the other level I did feel like a child who was engaged in inappropriate relationship with the parent and this hurt me a lot. This is the reason why the patient is never responsible for sexual or intense emotional involvement with the therapist. It is the therapist’s responsibility to keep professional boundaries intact. Just like it is the parent’s responsibility to keep the boundaries with his or her children.
All of the above is not to say that we become helpless children in relationships with our therapists, as I mentioned before. This is just to note that it is not a black-and-white issue. The adult part of the patient absolutely should be acknowledged and respected by the therapist. At the same time the patient’s vulnerability and dependency on the therapist cannot and should not be denied.
As to the child wiring in our brains, we do have it! If you look at the latest brain research, it proves that our old childhood experiences live with us long into adulthood, in fact, for the rest of our lives. Read the works of Dan Siegal and Alan Shore if you want more information on the subject. Also, get some Peter Levine’s books, who has researched trauma and how it operates within us in great detail. There is a substantial body of research that has proven that our childhood experiences continue to play out in our present life.
By the way, I am in a process of reporting my therapist’s unethical behavior to the licensing board. If someone wants more information on the subject of abuse in therapy and bad therapy you can email me privately at
marina@tonkonogy.com
http://www.mtmft.com
You might also want to visit a couple of websites that have a wealth of information on that.
http://www.therapyabuse.org
http://www.advocateweb.org
I am working on creating my own blog about abuse in therapy and also am going to write books and articles about it. I fully agree with the author of this post that this should be taken out into an open public discussion and that it is time for mental health professionals to drop their defenses and to start exploring what is helpful and not so helpful in the way they work and how it can be changed.
Marina, thanks so much for your post. I’m sorry that you also experienced bad therapy. Clearly you’re processing the good and the bad and using your wisdom to add to the discussion. I look forward to your writings, and certainly hope you’ll check in here with updates.
I’ll try to clarify a couple of my points, for we might not necessarily be “apart” about them. I certainly agree that the therapy relationship has an imbalance of power. As I former client, I felt that imbalance was unnecessarily intensified when therapists played a shaman, authoritarian and parental roles with me. This was harmful 1) because it was fantasy-based 2) encouraged my helplessness. So I hope therapists will ask many more questions about these dynamics.
And I’ll agree completely that our childhood experiences influence our feelings and actions in adulthood. What I challenge, based on my own experience and discussions with others, is this notion that therapists have some magic re-parenting powers to “rewire” our emotional circuitry. And as much as I “revisited” the pains and slights of childhood, nothing was “rewired,” and only left me with the bad habits of victimhood, blaming and feeling awful.
That said, I do think some healing is possible. Over the years I’ve improved my skills both in internal balancing and external coping. I can’t credit therapy, unfortunately.
I wish you well in your complaint (these can be hard to win without concrete evidence of the therapist committing some unarguably egregious action) and wish you great success in opening those discussions we both advocate.
Best.
Thank you for clarification, Madeline. I see that we are not so much “apart” in our views after all. I can perfectly relate to your discontent in regards to disrespectful treatment of therapy clients/patients. I have experienced it many times as a patient in different ways, subtle or not so subtle.
Also, your insight about therapists intentionally intensifying the power imbalance between them and their patients parallels mine. I have been trying to raise this subject with my colleagues to no avail. All I got was blank stares with no clue of what I was talking about..
While the possibility of “re-wiring” some of our neural circuits in therapy is still an open question for me because I have actually experienced some of it, what, I believe, needs to be revisited more than our childhood is the way how therapy has been conducted from the beginning, if this healing modality is to survive at all. Therapists certainly don’t have any magical power to “re-wire” anything and any claim, direct or implicit, that they can do that are based on ignorance and arrogance. I believe (and also know from experience) that we all have innate capacity to heal and can do so when given the right conditions. In this sense, therapists can facilitate our healing if they are able to create those conditions, and those are acceptance and respect of our individual process. If the therapist genuinely wants to understand the client, their needs, goals, desires, their entire world, inner and outer, this could facilitate their healing rapidly. Actually, this idea is not new at all. This is what Carl Rogers advocated but unfortunately his approach was largely discounted by mental health community.
In any case, I think that opening discussions on those subjects is the first step to finding solutions and I am very committed to that.
A friend, who is very against the whole notion of encouraging transference in therapy, also thinks that Rodgers needs more credence.
Sweeping my childhood closet hindered me because it became an isolated exercise in feeling woeful. It left me feeling more powerless and enforced a self-definition of victimhood.
I do think it’s possible to change one’s emotional response to difficult people and situations, Perhaps a therapist could have supported this for me, but the emphasis would have needed to be need to be changes I try outside the therapy room, rather than the therapy itself. I also have found body work, including yoga, calming and helpful.
Bodywork has done wonders for me as well. I didn’t find it calming though, it was rather intense and resulted in a cathartic emotional release almost after each session so I have to pace it very carefully, otherwise it will re-traumatize me just like some of my psychotherapy did. I assume, that we all have different experiences with every kind of healing modality, because we are all different and each one of us heals in our own way. That is why I always try to be careful in evaluating what works and what doesn’t whether in psychotherapy or any other healing method. What works for me may be counter-productive for somebody else, even though I do believe that some things could be generally healing or harmful for almost everyone. I certainly found it harmful when one of my therapists was intentionally trying to intensify my transference by taking on a parental role with me. It resulted in me getting re-traumatized more than healed. But even that particular experience was not all negative. With all the trauma that it caused me, a certain part of this experience was still healing and moved me forward in my personal growth. As I live on and integrate all my life experiences along the way, both wounding and healing, I appreciate the complexity of life and become more accepting of the fact that I may not be able to sort everything out and to find answers to all my questions and solutions to all my problems. Oftentimes, answers and solutions come on their own terms, not on ours..
A most interesting discussion. I too was pretty much tortured by my doctor who used sodium amytal interviews (truth sessions) restraints, sequestration, et al to control me. I was in repressed memory therapy – although didn’t know that when I started.
Nearly seven years later, after I took less drugs, I realized what was happening.
I found it necessary on a personal and a social level to sue him and hold him accountable for his actions which works only in the short run because the psychiatry and psychology industry permits people like this to continue practicing.
I agree, the imbalance of power in a therapeutic relationship can be huge and we need to keep writing about these issues so the public is educated and reminded that: therapy is a business, therapists don’t have magical powers or insight, and that much harm can be inflicted.
To everyone here, thank you for taking the time to share your stories, and for getting your blogs going. Keep writing! My blog is about multiple personalities. If it’s OK, the link is http://www.jeanettebartha.wordpress.com
I think multiple personalities is the ultimate example of therapy screw ups and the biggest catastrophe the psychology business has seen in recent years – and it continues to pick up steam.
Again, the profession, and former patients like us need to keep publishing.
I look forward to more comments about these issues. Jeanette Bartha
p.s. in general, people are not given credit for resiliency.
Jeanette, thank you so much for your post. Stories like yours make me so angry at the ignorance of the mental health profession that I can’t find the right words to describe the shock and disbelief that such ignorance exists!
I can relate to your feelings of holding perpetrators of abuse in therapy accountable. (I consider what happened to you one of the most horrible cases of abuse by mental health professionals). We can take legal and board actions against individual practitioners, but it won’t change the global dynamic within the profession as long as the public is not educated about psychotherapy process, its dynamics and what can go wrong there. That is not to say that legal, civil or board actions against unethical therapists are futile efforts. Even if they don’t always produce desirable results and many perpetrators can get away with what they do, every act of protest against their tyranny is a building block in the process of changing the system. On a global scale though as long as the public is brainwashed by the mainstream information and doesn’t know anything else, ignorance and harm that it produces will not only be tolerated but also sanctioned by the system and accepted by the public.
As to MPD (multiple personalities), I have been always fascinated by this diagnosis because it did not seem real to me, but I did not have any objective information to either believe or disbelieve it. My gut sense refused to believe that such thing existed (yet another prove that our intuition knows better!), but I did not feel confident enough to form my opinion about it, again, for the lack of objective information. Thank you for telling your story because it does give me information on the subject that I was lacking. I think we all have a tendency to disconnect from painful reality when we are in a deeply traumatized state. It’s just a natural protective reaction that our body uses to survive, and it very well may be that we could “zone out” so much that we might not remember events that were traumatic. Forming “alters”, however, seems to be something that some people made up for movies and fiction books because it sounds fascinating and sophisticated:)) I think each one of us has “alters” in the sense that we have a tendency to model those we admire and to act as if we were them because it helps us feel good about ourselves. There is an actor in each one of us and we constantly act out some of the human qualities that we need at the moment, it’s only natural..
By the way, you are absolutely right that no one gives us credit for the resilience! After all, just merely surviving such horrific abuse is an indication of your incredible strength and courage, leave alone turning this experience into something constructive and beneficial to others!
Marina, we’re all coping with different lives, different pasts and no doubt will take different paths to bettering them. That challenges any “one size fits all” type of theory or approach. As the best with your grievance process.
Jeanette, you’re telling a courageous story, and the truth behind the myths perpetuated in tv and movies. I have a minor career writing scripts. When I’m writing I put myself inside the heads of different personae to write characters. I thinks we all have that in us. Different personalities, different parts and roles we’re able to play. It’s all who we are as humans, and not a thing to drug or pathologize. Feel free to link here and give updates on your blog and writings.
I’m a licensed mental health counselor in Boston, MA. I’ll be the first to admit that there are a lot of bad therapists out there. Most of my clients have been in therapy before (some for several years) without success and share “horror stories” about their previous therapists. I feel this is something that’s true in any profession (Don’t get me started on all the bad PCPs I’ve been to!). Part of the problem with mental health is that there is no unifying theory or practice in our profession. Different therapists have different approaches, and finding out which approach works best for you could be the answer. There are approaches that call for the therapist to be more nurturing , more cold and analytical, to focus more on childhood events, or to focus more on present behaviors. There is even an approach that calls for the therapist to actually argue with the client (ie Dr Phil)! Therapist directories like goodtherapy.org and Psychology Today have the therapists mark what their approach is and you can even search using those criteria. The treatment method and theory I use is Rational Emotive Therapy. You’ve probably never heard of it, but I find it to be highly successful for my clients. Something I do that I think all therapists should do is I ask for my client’s feedback at the end of most sessions. I’ve noticed that a lot of the people that go to therapy have timid personalities, are afraid of hurting my feelings, etc, and it takes a lot of coaxing from me to express how they really feel about how therapy is progressing. I think it is really important to give your therapist feedback about what you like and don’t like, and what you need more of and less of in therapy. It might be helpful for you guys to ask a therapist ahead of time what which psychological treatment models they subscribe too. You can even ask them to describe to you what that treatment model is like. Also, you might want to give the bad therapists you have been to a bad review on yelp, so other clients don’t have to go through what you’ve been through. I wrote an article on my website called “warning signs of a bad therapist”. Maybe you guys could contribute to it if I’ve forgotten anything.
http://jpcounseling.com/2011/09/09/warning-signs-of-a-bad-therapist/
Marina, thanks so much for your comments.I very much appreciate your consumer advocacy and education, and your encouragement of consumer feedback. I thought your warning signs list very good and think it’s wonderful you posted it.
I have a couple of responses that I hope will be more “food for thought” rather than contention. One of my problems with therapy is that it’s so wrapped up in theory that human connection and common sense get lost. The bottom line is simply one person trying to help another live a better life, and relationships don’t take on a new definition in the consulting room. Though a therapist might talk about theory to a new client, the client might not always understand its ramifications.
I definitely could raise my hand when you mention timid clients, though I was reasonably competent in other rooms in my life. I see this deference as an inherent problem in the therapy set-up–how we’re preconditioned about therapy, our expectations, and sometimes subtle signals from the therapist. (Sigrun recommended the excellent Dorpat book above.) If we see therapy as a “last resort” to solve problems and ease pain, the therapist can seem quite magical, an image that some therapists feed, unfortunately. Since therapy’s goal is empowerment, one already is starting out with a contradiction. I applaud any therapist who tries to put the relationship on a more realistic footing and imagine this isn’t always easy. There are years of deference to “authority” to unravel here. In fact, its unraveling well might be key to the therapy.
Dr. Phil–don’t get me started on that scold….
Interesting you should mention Yelp. I just ran across this article and response recently which maintained therapy was “too special” for reviews on Yelp. I’m glad to see you advocating for client feedback. Thanks again.
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/03/20/yelp-and-therapist-reviews/
Ran across a request for respondents in a study about termination.
https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2217470730&topic=5708
“Too special” for Yelp. Hahaha. Also “too special” for empirical research, evaluation, criticism, evidence, proof….
Transparency is a scary thing.
The APA needs to see this blog. I hope you will forward them the information ATTN Ethics Offics Look uo American Psychological Assoc
Ellerj, thanks for the support. I wrote this piece believing I covered some thinking I hadn’t found in professional literature. Excepting a handful of books, I’ve found little acknowledging potential harm, particularly non-sexual violations. I’ve found literature little criticizing some fundamental assumption I discuss. And I’ve read little speculation how much “treatment” might be little more than a circular exercise. I’m more than a little discouraged losing my grievance, the fact that everyone I know also lost, and from defensiveness against professional critique. Professionals who brave those waters generally are dismissed or analyzed/diagnosed pejoratively. The harshest dismissals seem aimed at us “malcontent” clients.
I’d love for these issues to be expanded, but feel most action will have to come from inside the profession. I’m fine if someone wants to forward this to the APA; as a member of the “uncredentialed” public, I’ll have no standing with them.
Hope things are OK with you.
I found the following website interesting and very relevant to what we are discussing here
http://www.mindfreedom.org/
Marina, thanks for the link. Those drug stories are indeed scary. I’ve had drugs suggested to me, and found out years later that some other conditions, including hypothyroid are the root of what looked like “depression.”
By the way, speaking of therapists like myself, who dared to go against the mainstream psychotherapy, your observation that they get analyzed/diagnosed by their peers, therapists and supervisors is absolutely correct. In my situation, when I and the therapist, who exploited me, saw other therapists together in order to achieve some resolution, his actions were not even questioned! The fact that he had crossed a professional boundary on many occasions was not even noted, let alone judged. What became a focus of sessions was my reactions to what he did. In other words, it was implied that my “preoccupation” with the abuse was a problem, not the abuse itself (!!), and, therefore, I became the focus of scrutiny, I needed to be analyzed and diagnosed, not my perpetrator!
Marina, what you describe is so painful, and an argument that consultations can redouble the injury rather than serve as a safety net. This attack can be devastating to a consumer who sees therapists as authority figures and can’t reconcile these evasive strategies with the kindly professional only there to heal them.
I misguidedly sought followup solace with the woman who referred me to my damaging therapists. She lightly told me they “goofed up,” but compared it to a store not carrying the dress I hoped to buy. She had me explore what I did to set them off and repeatedly drilled me that they weren’t bad therapists, this was merely a “bad match.” I notice that “bad match” thing is a common therapist mantra.
Therapists also deflect debate by going all “academic” on us. A dissenter has no credibility because the argument isn’t structured as scientific method. As if so much of therapy, from Freud onward, is rooted in real science.
The only way I know to counter these games is to anticipate and get ahead of them. My the first graph of my essay essentially is “they’ll discredit me, but here I go anyway.”
My experience with their way to invalidate you has been their trying to make you crazy by questioning your reality. Usually they do it by saying “So you FELT that So-and-So insulted you..” as if the insult did not really take place but that it was just your perception..Everything becomes about you, especially if problems arise in your relationship with them or their colleagues, as if they were not just human beings with their own limitations and the capacity to hurt like everyone else..
Oh, I experienced something similar. My therapists were acting out, and when I reacted, the guy denied all their behavior to tell me my reaction was a “distortion.” When a therapist’s back feels against the wall, he frequently uses diagnosis as a weapon. Their education is precise training in how to play mind games.
I DON’T regard the consulting room as a well-designed “laboratory” for a relationship. It’s very one-sided, it’s play acting. Anyone who relates to friends, co-workers or bosses like she relates to her therapist would be pretty…well…er…dysfunctional.
I’ve been glancing at this page and various links from it off and on since my last post in May (time flies!), and making mental notes to respond to some things mentioned. So here goes with some – perhaps more to follow later. (In fact, I think I’d better break up what I’ve got so far into more than one post.)
Re Marina’s August 8 post: In some ways I can agree with/appreciate the comment to the effect that to help clients, therapists need to create “the right conditions …, and those are acceptance and respect of our individual process.” My perspective is that what therapists need to provide is an environment that helps the client help her/himself. However, I believe that often more than just acceptance and respect are needed – but precisely what is needed will depend on the client, and their particular strengths and weaknesses. For example, a therapist needs to be patient and refrain from intervening or being too demanding while a client struggles to practice something difficult for that client (even though it might be easy for the therapist or for other clients), and needs to get out of the way to let a client use their strengths.
However, I have some serious concerns with the sentence, “If the therapist genuinely wants to understand the client, their needs, goals, desires, their entire world, inner and outer, this could facilitate their healing rapidly.” One concern is that in the real world, “wants to” does not automatically make one “competent to.” In some cases, the therapist needs to accept that they don’t understand – or that acceptance without understanding may be an important step in understanding. A second is that wanting and trying to understand can sometimes be a form of treating the client as an object. I would urge therapists to try to form the habit of noting when they use the phrase “I want to” in reference to a client, since that may be a sign that they are indeed seeing the client as an object rather than as another human being.
I heartily agree with Marina’s August 9 comment that “What works for me may be counter-productive for somebody else,” and Disequilibrium’s follow-up, “we’re all coping with different lives, different pasts and no doubt will take different paths to bettering them. That challenges any “one size fits all” type of theory or approach.” Unfortunately, many therapists seem to take the easy (but often ineffective because it ignores reality) route of one-size-fits-all approaches. But, more subtly, a therapist may genuinely subscribe to the philosophy described by Marina and Disequilibrium, and apply it well in some aspects of their work, yet be unaware that they are using a one-size-fits-all approach in other aspects of their work. (There will be an example in the next post.)
(Post #2) On September 12, Marina said, “Different therapists have different approaches, and finding out which approach works best for you could be the answer.” This may apply for some people, but the closest I’ve come to finding an existing approach that seems as though it might work for me is the Client Directed approach of Duncan, Hubble, and Miller. However, I have not been able to find anyone in my (moderately large) city who practices this approach.
Marina also said on September 12, “Something I do that I think all therapists should do is I ask for my client’s feedback at the end of most sessions. I’ve noticed that a lot of the people that go to therapy have timid personalities, are afraid of hurting my feelings, etc, and it takes a lot of coaxing from me to express how they really feel about how therapy is progressing.” I agree to the extent that being receptive to feedback is very important for a therapist to do a good job. But “asking for the client’s feedback at the end of most sessions” is an example of the unaware use of a “one-size-fits-all perspective that does not fit al”l that I mentioned in my preceding post. There are other possibilities for getting feedback that may be better for some clients. Some of us find therapy sessions emotionally and mentally draining; for such clients, the end of the session may be the worst time to ask for feedback. Possibly some of the clients you describe as taking a lot of coaxing fall into this category. What I would consider better alternatives for me (and probably also some other clients) include the following:
1. In the first session with a new client, ask them to give you feedback on how you are doing, any time and in whatever way that works for them. Emphasize that that is helpful for both of you. Be sure to put this in writing – some of us don’t take in everything well orally.
2. Develop (or use existing) feedback questionnaires – or at least, give the client the option of a questionnaire rather than being asked orally for feedback. Again, some of us are better with something written than something oral. Also, some of us are better with something that is not so face-to-face as being asked directly. Be sure to tell the client that the questionnaire is not to be taken as written in stone – if they can write their own questionnaire that fits them better than the one you provide, so much the better. Be sure to give the client the option of taking the questionnaire home and filling it out when they have more time to think and articulate their thoughts and feelings.
3. Be pro-active by remembering informed consent as much as possible. Make every effort to give your reasons for interventions; to ask if an intervention might be helpful before engaging in it; to give alternatives (e.g., “would it be better if I did x or y?”). Try to ask, “Does that make sense?” when you propose something to the client, or when you explain something.
4. When you ask a client a question, be sure to give plenty of time for them to respond before coaxing or otherwise intervening. Some of us need time to access our thoughts and/or feelings, and then to figure out how to articulate them. Thirty seconds might seem like a long time to you, but might seem too short for some clients.
All of these would to me be preferable to coaxing or drawing out, which can lead to the client’s feeling treated as an object to be acted on, or feeling pressured, rushed, manipulated, invaded or even violated. But, one size does not fit all; I’m sure some clients find coaxing or drawing out helpful. So this needs to be treated as an informed consent issue: Ask the client if they find coaxing or drawing out helpful; if they say yes, then ask them if they can give any advice on how and when works best for them. If they say no, then don’t do it – but suggest (or ask if they can suggest) other alternatives, such as the above.
(Post #3) Also on September 12, Marina said, “It might be helpful for you guys to ask a therapist ahead of time what psychological treatment models they subscribe to. You can even ask them to describe to you what that treatment model is like.” I realize this is well-intended, but it just seems so disconnected from the reality that I’ve experienced in therapy. When I first tried therapy, over 25 years ago, I tried asking prospective therapists what type of therapy they practiced. But the answers didn’t mean anything to me – and I wasn’t adept enough in oral interaction to ask more questions. The situation is only a little bit better now that we can look things up on the web. First, my experience is that different therapists may interpret or implement the same model in quite different ways. Second, many say they are eclectic, which can mean a whole gamut of things, but which many describe as, “I choose the methods that I think will work best with you.” And informed consent seems to be honored in the breach.
My experience is that most therapists are not very receptive to questions about what they are doing and why. I could give oodles of examples. Here are just a few:
In my first appointment with my first therapist (not counting the one I didn’t go back to because she spent so much time in the first session talking about herself personally), I asked what therapy was. She said, “A safe place to work on your problems.” That sounded good, but wasn’t very informative, so in the second session (I’m one of those timid types who needs time to formulate a response and to psych myself up to ask it) I asked, “What do we do in therapy?’ She said, “We talk.” Period. That level of information was typical of her – I felt treated like an unintelligent child.
The next therapist I tried said things like, “Are you sure you’re not second guessing me?” and “Oh, I love to talk about my theories” when I asked questions about what she was doing and why. More feeling treated like an unintelligent child.
So, after giving up on therapist 2 (and developing considerable deterioration in the process), I asked the third one, over the phone before making an appointment, “Do you let your patients know what you’re doing?” She assured me that she did. But she rarely did; often I got responses like, “I have my reasons” if I asked why she did something, or “I’m not perfect” if I said something was not helpful for me.
A few years later, when I considered trying therapy again, I asked one therapist (who was highly recommended by another therapist I had considered) over the phone what his philosophy of therapy was. (That was before I learned the phrased “theoretical orientation” or “treatment model.”) He said he didn’t understand the question. So I asked, “What beliefs do you base your work on?” He said, “Therapy is not a religion.” I did not make an appointment with him.
The last time I tried therapy (several years ago), I tried a therapist who had a website that said that he fit his approach to the person as well as the problem. That sounded good. I assertively went in with a list of things that were “more likely to be part of the problem than part of the solution,” together with suggestions for more helpful alternatives. He mostly went along with that for a while, and indeed after a while I started seeing improvement in my problem areas. But then he decided that it was not helping me (despite my protestation that it was), and started intervening in ways that were not helpful (and didn’t make sense to me). One was to say that he thought I was harming myself by focusing so much on how I was different than him, and that I should focus more on our similarities. So in the next session, I brought in a list of situations in my experience where focusing on differences was key to understanding. That didn’t make any difference to him – he said that if I cared about evidence, I should work with a cognitive therapist. (I had previously tried two cognitive therapists. One gave the impression, “My mind is made up; don’t confuse me with the facts,” so I gave up on him after two sessions. The other seemed like a very nice, polite, earnest person — which was a refreshing change and of some value in helping me believe that it was possible for a therapist to be humane, but what he had to offer professionally seemed more like a fundamentalist religion than something I could buy into. That, unfortunately, seems to be the case with most theoretical orientations to me)
I hope to post more when I get a chance – maybe in the next couple of days.
Mary, thanks so much for your posts. I’ll essentially add what reading them triggered for me, rather than directly responding to points.
I too never would have understood theoretical approaches meant, particularly what they’d mean to me personally. I had no idea what would be best for me or even what therapy-appropriate goals were.
Though therapy never helped me, I can trace a personal growth that time and experience provides. I’m much less anxious than I was years ago. I’m better able to keep my eye on goals, less trapped by my own ego or someone’s negative emotions. I have different ideas about friendships and relationships. So flipping back now, I reflect whether any therapist could have facilitated reducing anxiety and in improving life skills. I don’t know.
It would have been nice to receive guidance in problem-solving. I wonder if therapy theory is too far removed from what I needed–simply to live life better. All my therapy was on a different planet than my parking myself in the guru’s office led to believe I could be magically transformed.
Hi Mary, I’d like to respond. I thought all of your responses were great and I hope that current or aspiring therapists will get a chance to read it and implement your suggestions. I’m afraid that I simplified my previous response too much and that might have confused some people. When I used the term “feedback” I was referring to all of the examples you used above and more. The only one that I don’t use is the questionaire, although I did used to work for an agency that would have clients fill out a detailed one about every three months. I certainly wouldn’t scold a client if they were not able to think of any response at the moment and of course I give people time to think. I don’t find silence to be “awkward”. I also consider the appropriateness of asking for feedback during a particular session. If someone is crying while talking about how their child died, I’m not going to interrupt “so how am I doing as a therapist?” I also try to wrap up each session in a positive and encouraging way.
I want to assure you that I do a lot of individual tweaking and pride myself on having a “tailor made” treatment plan for each unique client. Just as a small example, each client sees a different side on me. Although this is going to be simplifying it again, if a client is anxious, I’m a very calming and serene presence. If a client is depressed, I’m more energetic. What the client sees is a persona based upon their own individual needs. I also wanted to assure you that psychological theories are different from say, the theory of gravity. They are very detailed but at the same time are just a frame work. If psychology was as easy as “when a client has blank issue, do blank” it would not have taken me 9 years of study. It really is a skill or even a talent. I am constantly reevaluating and changing my approach for each individual.
I had noticed that two of the responders were therapists who have been in therapy. It used to be a requirement and is definitely still encouraged that therapists see a therapist. This is very helpful so therapists can experience first hand the kinds of complaints that you have spoken about. As both a professional and a consumer, I can honestly say that unfortunately I have had bad experiences as well and those bad experiences provided a valuable lesson of the things I do NOT want to do. I have also had good experiences.
Again, I am over simplifying here, but if I provided examples of all the techniques I use and the ways that I use them depending on the appropriateness of the situation, I would have wrote an entire book. I wish everyone the best of luck on their journey towards wellness.
Hi Mary,
I appreciate your detailed posts, especially your comments on my posts.
Before I respond, it is important to note that there is TWO Marinas here. I don’t know if you noticed this, but from your posts I got an impression that you believed that all Marina’s posts came from the same person. I am Marina Tonkonogy and there is also Marina Williams here. All the points that you discussed in regards to asking for clients’ feedback and suggesting that they ask the prospective therapist what approach they practice were not brought up by me. Marina Williams brought them up, and she already responded to your posts with explanations. I can only respond to your comments on the points that I brought up here.
Actually, there is only one point in my posts that you seemed to disagree with, and that is when I said that the therapist’s desire to understand the client could be the major healing factor. You commented that “want to” understand does not automatically translate into “competent to” understand. I fully agree with that, and I did not say or imply in my posts that one translates into the other, so we may not see this differently after all.
The therapist’s desire to understand the client’s experience does not mean that he/she is capable of understanding it. In fact, I don’t believe that it is possible at all for any human being to fully understand the other human being. I, personally, never needed any of my therapists to be able to completely understand my experience, but I did need them to have a desire to understand it. Also, as a therapist, I never pretended or implied that I was able to understand any of my clients’ experiences fully or even as much as they wanted me to. I just let them know that I had a genuine desire to understand them and would make my best effort to do so, but that my understanding will always be limited. I am also not sure what you meant, when you said that by wanting to understand the client the therapist makes them an object.
There is another point that you made about acceptance and respect that was not quite clear to me. If I am not mistaken, your idea was that if my agenda is to respect the client and accept where they are right now, then I will be pushing my agenda on them rather than attuning to their needs. If this is what you meant, then logically this doesn’t make sense, as if I attune to their needs, that is exactly what acceptance and respect is, so there is actually no contradiction between what you and I see as a healing factor.
I’ll go a little off topic here. Just wanted to share the link to my interview/article on yahoo associated content regarding abuse in therapy
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/8269499/how_to_avoid_getting_abused_in_psychotherapy.html?cat=5
I read this article. The problem is that the warnings signs you mentioned would not become apparent until it’s too late, until you ARE being abused, so abuse has not been avoided.
If therapy is so risky an undertaking that articles need to be written about how not to get abused in it, then why go at all? Why not solve one’s problems some other way? Which is what most people do and have done since forever.
therapyisacon: I was abused for more than ten years as a child and am very traumatized. How does one “solve” that on one’s own?
therapyisacon,
I totally agree with your comment. I would say that the reason people still seek out “professionals” is because they still haven’t learned to trust their own abilities. In addition most people unless they have had a bad experience or know someone who has believe the hype, they believe that therapy is a safe place to discuss their issues. Most people have no idea the damage an incompetent therapist can do. Most people have no idea how broken the system is. This entire blog is filled with countless stories of terrible therapy outcomes. I would like to read some stories where someone was actually able to hold their therapist accountable. I want to read a story where a client won a large psychiatric malpractice lawsuit. It’s one thing to SAY people have the ability to sue and to see the criteria listed on the web it’s another to actually read about a case that has happened.
Can I extend warm appreciation to clinicians who’ve read this blog and participate here, because I assume it’s not easy to read us criticizing the profession. Many of us have felt stranded after harmful therapy because the situation was too hot for our subsequent therapists to handle.
However, I hope the criticism, the discussion and even the–venting– will be valuable and maybe help both consumers and professionals synthesize new approaches. If we can be collaborators about therapy’s shortcomings and possibilities, together we might emerge with some new insights.
Marina, terrific article, “How to Avoid Getting Abused in Psychotherapy.” I found it very accurate in my experience and will do a link to it. The another side of the equation is the client. If she is primed to see therapy and the therapist more realistically, she is less likely to be abused.
PS. I wanted to add a nice “comment” on the page, but the software wouldn’t let me.
Thanks for putting the link on your blogroll. Also, it is not hard for me as a clinician to participate in this discussion and read all the criticism of the profession, because I know that there is a real basis for such criticism and truly believe that the methods of psychotherapy have to undergo a major reform, if it is to survive in the future as a healing practice. Besides, having been harmed in my own therapy as much as I was, I am no different in my emotional reactions from all of the disgruntled psychotherapy clients here. I have been on both ends of therapy process, as a client and as a therapist, so I definitely see what is wrong with psychotherapy from a client’s standpoint. On the other hand, having done therapy work myself, I know what challenges this work presents to professionals and how the methods that they are required to use create a trap for them that they often cannot escape.
As a matter of fact, therapists get very much abused by the system during their training years. During this time, most of them don’t get paid at all, and while working for non-profit agencies they are often pressured to do things that are either not therapy related or even questionable from an ethical standpoint. They often don’t feel safe to discuss their cases openly with supervisors and colleagues for the fear of judgment let alone sharing their emotional struggles with certain clients, which means that they can’t always get the help that they need. Unfortunately, many of them prefer to tolerate the current state of affairs instead of trying to change it, which results in them living with the whole array of unresolved insecurities, anger, fear etc that undermines their ability to be effective at best and harms their clients at worst.
Since I have “been” there and “done” that and got profoundly disappointed and disillusioned in the whole profession, I decided not to practice, at least temporarily while I am trying to heal and until I get clarity on how this work can be done differently. I will continue to advocate for changes in the profession and, in a meantime, I am planning to look for a job as a social worker..
I read a book (I’m now unable to find) about how the training process itself can be abusive and how the treatment of trainees might then carry into practice.
Yes, the more I read, the more I’m think the problem more than a minority of therapists going rogue and attributable to an entire theory and system. When my therapist abused me, he was adhering to a training that pathologized me and preempted the possibility real common-sense communication. Meanwhile I attributed therapists with super powers, part my disposition, but also reinforced by our culture and the therapists themselves,
I just skim-read a 1983 book, Shrinking of America: Myths of Psychological Change by Bernard Zilbergeld that explores how too much is expected of therapy. I think the possibility of harm would decrease and therapy would be more beneficial if it were viewed more realistically.
I had a very positive experiences with a geriatrician (case worker) and a social worker. They executed very concrete, specific assistance -helping a disabled family member- and were invaluable.
I am glad you brought up a point of mutuality in psychotherapy process and that clients’ unrealistic expectations often force therapists to adopt a God-like position of all-knowing expert. I can tell you from experience that the majority of therapy clients (at least the majority of my clients) do not have an independent mindset of a free thinker as you and other people who participate in this discussion do. What you and I and others with similar outlook perceive as an attack on our human dignity is perfectly fine with many others, believe it or not. I enjoyed working with clients who had an independent attitude because it allowed me to relax and be more authentic with them. I didn’t have to worry too much about making a mistake and monitoring every word that was coming out of my mouth, as I knew that those people appreciated my candor as long as my intend was to help rather than moralize them.
There is a great book by Merilyn Peterson “At personal risk” that explores how American culture puts professionals, not only therapists, but lawyers, medical doctors and others on a pedestal and gives them an unquestionable authority. I came from a different culture, I am Russian, and when I came to US I was shocked by how much power and authority professionals have here. In Russia we respected their training and experience but never saw them as all-knowing Gods and certainly didn’t have a blind faith in their expertise. I think, the desire to see a professional as an expert, who’s expertise is beyond doubt, comes from people’s unwillingness to think for themselves. It is much easier for many to have a therapist think for them..because then they don’t have to make independent decisions and take responsibility for the choices that they make.
I imagine the burden that client deference puts on you, because you’re then dealing with a fragile eggshell. Unfortunately, many therapists foster the dynamic, stepping right into the wizard role. However, it’s not an easy task to teach there ain’t no tooth fairy with life’s answers, but that would be a valuable process.
I hope the infamous media therapists aren’t the pinnacle of practice (though Dr. Phil was bestowed with an APA Presidential Citation), but these are examples of therapist-as-expert in full flower.
An equally hazardous therapy tradition is literally teaching clients how to be depressed, by dwelling, drawing out and reveling in all the hurts and injustices of life. None of this “freed” me, in fact, quite the contrary.
Believe me, any of my free-thinking is hard-earned.
So interesting what you say about Russia. I assume you’re well-aware of how Americans perceived the USSR and its citizens before the dissolution. Of course, we never were privy to what really happened in Russian households.
Yes, client’s expectation that I know “the secret” to their everlasting happiness and could “fix” whatever didn’t work in their life were a bit unsettling for me, as I was forced to take on the role I didn’t want to take on. Fortunately, those people didn’t stay with me as I was not the type of therapist that they needed.
As to the Soviets, yes, I was well aware of how we were perceived by Americans, and, of course, many perceptions did not reflect the reality, just like my perception of Americans was not accurate before I emigrated. The reality in general, whether here or there or anywhere is more complex than it is presented. We try to simplify everything, create polarities like “good” and “bad”, “light” and “dark”, “God” and “Evil”. It’s easier to live this way when everything is neatly separated, but it robs you off fullness and richness of life..
Marina: It’s interesting to read about diffences in Russian and American culture. And that reminded me of a seminar several years ago. I live in Scandinavia, and we had a visitor from the U.S. He was a lawyer and mental health advocate. Unfortunately I have forgotten his name. He hold a speech about differences in wages and status between Russian and American psychiatrists. In Russia the patients weren’t so much poorer than their psychiatrist, but in the U.S. the difference between psychiatrist and patient was huge, which constituted power imbalance between the parts.
This is a great point, Sigrun. We were all relatively poor in the USSR. Professionals were not well paid, mostly because it was not a free market economy. Doctors, psychiatrists and lawyers did not have private practices, they were employed by state clinics and government organizations, they did not pay anything for their education and training as education was free for everyone. There were also no licensing boards and they didn’t have to go through the process of getting licensed. After getting their degrees and completing practicum requirements they got employed by clinics, hospitals and judicial system. It is also worth to mention that employment was not a problem. Universities, where they received their degrees simply assigned them to a specific work place after graduation, where they had to work for a certain period of time ( I think, it was two or three years) and then they were free to work for any employer. Their salaries were not much higher than those of engineers, economists, computer programmers. This contributed a lot into not seeing them as some kind of higher beings, and so the power imbalance between them and their clients was much less than here. Of course, there was still a psychological power imbalance, since patient’s health and well-being always depends on the doctor’s competence and client’s legal situation depends on the lawyer’s competence, but even psychological imbalance there was less than here, because there the society did not put professionals on a pedestal and, therefore, they were not arrogant as they are here.
(Post #4) On Sept 12, Disequilibrium said: “One of my problems with therapy is that it’s so wrapped up in theory that human connection and common sense get lost.” In my experience (which includes a lot of reading involving a variety of theories, as well as my personal experience as a client), reality also gets lost in the theory. The theories seem to be attempts to make thing simple – but real life is often complex.
Disequilibrium also pointed out the NY Times article on Yelp and therapy and the psychcentral commentary. I agree that the author’s use of “special” seemed inappropriate – but after reading the article and the comments on it, I see that there definitely are problems in using Yelp for therapy reviews. I had previously been concerned about the fact that people often made comments like, “horrible” or “wonderful,” without any specifics to back up what was horrible or wonderful, but reading the comment about how someone can pay Yelp to block bad reviews was really eye-opening. Some way for clients to rate their therapists online is certainly needed, but after reading this article and the comments, I believe that Yelp is not a good way to do that.
(Post #5) On Sept. 19, Disequilibrium, responding to elleryj, expressed discouragement at how little concern there seemed to be about the issues discussed in her blog. There are in fact a few (admittedly not a lot) therapist/researchers who are concerned about harmful therapy (including, of course, the ones who have expressed that concern in the Good Therapy page about warning signs of harmful therapy.) Some of those concerned are active in the APA and publish in APA and other journals. Here are some relevant articles that I am aware of:
Scott Lilienfeld (of Emory University) published an article “Psychological Treatments That Cause Harm,” in Perspectives on Psychological Science, 2007, Vol. 2, Number 1, pp. 53 – 70. I don’t know if it’s available online. However, you can find a discussion of it at the Psychotherapy Brown Bag (PBB) blog; a web search on “Making things worse through treatment: Iatrogenic psychological interventions” will find it. (BTY Jeanette: Lilienfeld does list “Induction of alter personalities” as one type of harm.) The PBB blog is open to reader comments, so leaving a comment is a good way to spread the word that many of us are interested in the subject of harmful therapy, and to suggest to the bloggers that you would like to see more discussion of articles on harmful therapy.
I also don’t know if any of the following are available online; if you are interested but can’t locate them, possibly an email to the author(s) might prompt them to send you a copy.
Michael Lambert (of Brigham Young University) has been concerned with harmful effects in therapy, and has worked on feedback mechanisms that can give therapists early warning of potential harm. He was president of the Society for Psychotherapy Research in 2005 – 2006. In his Presidential Address to that society (published as “Presidential address: What we have learned from a decade of research aimed at improving psychotherapy outcome in routine care,” Psychotherapy Research, 2007,Volume 17, Issue 1), Lambert was upfront about the problem of ineffective and harmful therapy by saying, “In randomized clinical trials (RCTs), in which treatments are offered by carefully selected and closely supervised therapists to carefully screened patients with a specific disorder, about 35% to 40% of patients experience no benefit and a small group of patients, perhaps between 5% and 10%, deteriorate.”
The January, 2010 issue of The American Psychologist contained three articles devoted to the negative effects of psychotherapy:
“Negative Effects from Psychological Treatments” (pp. 13 – 20), by David Barlow (of the Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders, at Boston University) discusses the fact that the study of negative effects of psychotherapy has not had as much attention as the study of positive effects. He points out that the methods used in research to document positive effects often do not look for or record negative effects. He urges more use of what is called “ideographic research” (studying one subject at a time), involving collaboration of clinicians and researchers, to supplement the more usual “nomothetic” research, which looks at average outcomes in a group of subjects.
“How Would We Know if Psychotherapy Were Harmful” (pp. 21 – 33), by Sona Dimidjian (University of Colorado) and Steven Hollon (Vanderbilt University), discusses ways in which treatment and/or decisions made about treatment can harm; factors that complicate attempts to detect harm; and possible ways to detect harm and understand it.
“Training Implications of Harmful Effects of Psychological Treatments” (pp. 34 – 49), by Louis Castonguay (Pennsylvania State University) and three coauthors, recommends that psychotherapy trainees be made aware of possible harm from psychotherapy treatments and discusses possible harmful therapist behaviors (e.g., rigid rather than flexible use of techniques) that need to be addressed in training, as well as monitoring for possible harmful effects.
Mary, I could also cite an additional body of literature written by clinicians on the subject, but having spent a considerable time inside therapeutic community and, particularly, inside psychoanalytic community, I can tell you that all those wonderful articles that they write and studies that they conduct have not so far changed a thing in terms of what is continuing to take place in therapy rooms. I don’t deny the value of the written word, as it still raises awareness of the issue and breaks the silence. However, those who “raise the concern” in writing do not have the courage to take concrete actions like holding their colleagues accountable for unethical behavior. One of my subsequent therapists, whom I told about my ex-therapist’s inappropriate behavior, did not “raise the concern” at the Ethics Committee of the organization, where he and my perpetrator belonged. He knew my perpetrator personally, they were colleagues, but he didn’t approach and confront him about what he had done to me and didn’t raise the question of taking away his professional membership. What he did instead is that he put an article on his website that describes the abuse in therapy in general. This was his way of making a compromise with his consciousness. Also, another subsequent therapist that I saw briefly was honest enough to admit that the Ethics Committee of his professional organization had not investigated any cases yet. He said: “This subject is very unnerving for therapists to talk about.” And yet, since more and more instances of abuse in therapy become known, they can’t deny it any more and have to do something to strike a deal with their consciousness. Creating Ethics Committees that don’t fulfill their roles and writing articles that don’t result in concrete actions is a perfect solution for them. This way they feel like they are doing something to change the status quo, when they are really doing nothing. They get to be “ethical” while staying in good relationships with their colleagues/perpetrators, who continue referring patients to them so they could maintain their practices. My perpetrator also wanted to strike such deal with his consciousness by trying to chair the Ethics Committee in his professional organization.
Marina T and Marina W: Apologies for confusing you. I will try to be more careful in the future.
Marina T: Thank you for pointing out my confusion of the two Marina’s.
Also to Marina T: You said, “I am also not sure what you meant, when you said that by wanting to understand the client the therapist makes them an object.” Actually, what I said is, “wanting and trying to understand can sometimes be a form of treating the client as an object.” I emphasize the “and trying” and the “sometimes.” To elaborate, sometimes a person can want so badly to understand that they become very aggressive in pursuing their want, seeing the other person only as an object of their desire to understand. In therapy, this might sometimes take the form of asking lots of questions that are way out in left field, wasting the client’s time that could better be spent on listening what is most important to the client. I certainly don’t think that this happens all the time, but that it is something (one of many things) to watch out for.
You also said, “There is another point that you made about acceptance and respect that was not quite clear to me. If I am not mistaken, your idea was that if my agenda is to respect the client and accept where they are right now, then I will be pushing my agenda on them rather than attuning to their needs.” This is definitely not what I was trying to say, and I am puzzled how you got this out of what I wrote. If you can give me quotes from what I said that lead to this interpretation, possibly I can give some clarification.
(I haven’t read all the responses to my posts 1-5 yet, but noticed this one pointing out my confusion of the two Marina’s, therefore wanted to respond to it now. I would like to post some more things related to others’ earlier posts, then read over the other responses to my posts and reply as might be appropriate.)
It’s easy to get lost in all our posts..Anyway, I found the quote you were asking for. Here it is
” However, I believe that often more than just acceptance and respect are needed – but precisely what is needed will depend on the client, and their particular strengths and weaknesses.”
I translated this quote as that you believe that attunement to client’s needs has to be added to acceptance and respect. I, however, was saying that when therapist attunes to client’s needs, this is a manifestation of acceptance and respect.
As far as wanting to understand the client, by no means, I was talking about the intrusive curiosity that you are describing. My idea of therapist’s desire to understand is that it should match client’s desire to be understood. Hope this clarifies what I said.
(Post #6) Re Marina T’s Sept 19 post of the Mindfreedom website: One book mentioned in one of the links from that site is Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America, by Robert Whitaker. I definitely recommend it. It is very carefully researched and written, but does present a scary story. (Like Disequilibrium, I had one therapist who urged medication; I am very glad that I firmly said no to that.)
Whitaker also has websites related to his concerns with treatment of mental illness. The page http://robertwhitaker.org/robertwhitaker.org/Anatomy%20of%20an%20Epidemic.html has links to the key studies reviewed in the book.
In his book, Whitaker points out that psychotherapy can in some cases be preferable to medication. But I have reason to believe that he is aware that psychotherapy can also sometimes be harmful. His website http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Home.html has links to blogs, and he invites readers to submit “op ed” blogs to be considered for posting. Disequilibrium or some of those who comment on her blog might be interested in submitting something for Whitaker’s blog page.
Thanks for your comments (was away a few days.) Mary, I’ve looked at some of the literature you mentioned. (That Jan 2010 APA issue is available in some academic data bases.) It struck me as having the usual “scientific” veneer, yet really not digging in to the issue.
I think it’s ridiculous to describe a power struggle or disconnected relationship in scientific terms. Say we have a bad relationship at the office with a boss or co-worker. How is this described? As many labels as therapists slap on it, or interpretations they put it through, a breakdown with a therapist is essentially that stuff, albeit with the further complication of the power and disclosure differential and the professional’s expected role role.
I also think harm can arrive when the therapist crosses no lines per se…inflating a client’s expectations, imposing his values on a client, encouraging deference, dependence, blame or self-pity, to name a few. One very respected therapist seemed to believe I magically would hatch whole and healthy as once I visited truths about my mother. Again, I see nothing “scientific” about this. It’s people deluding themselves.
I know that harmful therapy seems scary topic for many practitioners. If they’re truly interested in harmful therapy, they only have to open the cases of the many complaints filed (and usually lost) with licensing and grievance boards. I’ve yet to read anyone who studied those.
I just want to add to Disequilibrium1’s point that harm could be done without crossing any ethical lines. I’ve had that experience as well in addition to the one where the lines were clearly crossed. So, the phenomena of abuse is much broader than what is described in the professional literature. At this time, we have only sexual abuse of patients/clients acknowledged by professionals as if this is the only way to abuse people. In my particular case, my therapist was emotionally seductive and I developed exactly the same traumatic symptoms as those who were sexually abused in therapy. Victims of sexual abuse from therapists told me that it was not sex itself that harmed them but what led to it which is emotional seduction. However, if nothing overtly sexual took place, the abuse is completely invalidated! My first therapist abused my differently. He was patronizing and disrespectful and liked playing power games. His attitude, probably, harmed me more than the inappropriateness of the last therapist.
Marina, a friend experienced a not-consummated seduction in therapy and described it as extremely painful and the repercussions long-lasting. I recall Susan Penfold in her Sexual Abuse by Health Professionals: a Personal Search for Meaning and Healing talks about events you describe. Yes, there can be arrogance and power games, or the therapy can mishandled in various directions, without the therapist being outright abusive. In many cases a harmful therapist might be outright kindly, as in the example of the therapist as wizard, or creating an infantilzed client. Or therapy can take on myriad distortions as a world in itself, becoming disproportionately dominant in a client’s life.
This reminds me of a great paper by Michelle Webster on emotional abuse in therapy and many various forms it could take. Here is the link
http://www.qca.asn.au/index2.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=40&Itemid=33
It also came to mind that there are so many people that idealize their abusive therapists, even think that they saved their lives! My therapist is one of them. He is Jungian and was abused by his analyst the same way he abused me but refused to see it as abuse. He kept repeating as a broken record “This guy saved my life”. The most interesting is that this “guy” was also abused by his analyst, who in turn was abused by his analyst, famous Carl Meyer, who was analysed and abused by Jung himself:)) I told my therapist that I was honored to be at the end of the chain of this noble Jungian tradition:)) Jung was notorious for abusing his patients. The story of his relationship with Sabina Spielrein is truly heart breaking.
Marina, that is a great paper, and one of the few pieces I’ve read specifically about emotional abuse in therapy. My reaction: I very much appreciate that she travels territory I haven’t seen elsewhere, yet she, like other therapists, make a number of assumptions I think open for question.
I very much liked her recommendations for putting emotional abuse in the forefront. Given that this article is now 20 years old, I ‘m pessimistic it moved professionals to action. But her suggestions sound quite valid to me.
I thought her quite accurate describing the effects of emotional abuse on the client–the self-blame the self-doubts. Those were loud repercussions for me and I’m happy to see the discussion out there.
Her 1991 view of therapy seems quite paternalistic–the cradled client, the parenting metaphor, Alice Miller’s quote about the “correction emotional experience.” I frankly don’t find it corrective to be beckoned back into a childlike state, which I feel sets the stage for likely abuse, by provoking the therapist’s power issues and encouraging the client to suspend judgment. I suspect clients idealize therapists less because of who they are and more because of stated and implied promises they make–they’re the “expert” who will lift the client’s pain.
I think if we look at therapy through a more realistic lens–dynamics that happen in life also extend into therapy–we can move to healthier relationships. As is, if we let ourselves be someone’s sycophant in life, we’re likely to be injured, I don’t see therapy as any different.
I don’t really remember the specifics of the article. I believe I could have missed the particular paternalistic attitude that you mentioned. When I was reading it, I was so excited that someone, particularly a clinician, spoke openly about emotional abuse in therapy that I didn’t pay much attention to anything else. As far as the corrective emotional experience goes, the idea of it is that therapist should be careful not to respond to client in the way that others responded to them in the past, so the client could have a different, hopefully better experience at least with someone. The problem is that therapists often translate this idea into the idea of re-parenting client, which is doomed to fail because no one can re-parent an adult person. This misinterpretation of a corrective emotional experience as re-parenting results in paternalistic “expert”-like attitude on therapist’s part. Besides, if therapist is simply respectful and reasonably attentive to client’s needs, that by itself would provide a corrective emotional experience to many people regardless of their history. I agree that this could happen in any relationship, but whether we like it or not, when client stays in therapy for some time, therapist becomes a significant figure to them, so when f.e a co-worker provides a corrective emotional experience, it won’t have the same impact on us as when therapist does it.
I agree, I’m happy to see someone talk about emotional abuse in therapy. She does talk about the corrective emotional experience and therapist as parent. And though while not paternalistic, but she discusses therapy as a place to re-experience pain with the therapist as witness. All that “reliving” was itself harmful to me, instructing me how to be passive, self-pitying and depressed, rather than an active adult.
Mind you, I seem to find at least some disagreement with almost all professional writing. The Shrinking of America was one of the few books that didn’t get my antenna twitching.
(Post #7) Re Disequlibrium’s Sept 19 reply to Marina:
Comparing your therapist’s “goofing up” to a store not carrying the dress you hoped to buy is, in my opinion, grossly insensitive and off in a fantasy world, as is having you “explore” what you did to set them off. Something “setting off” a therapist would be most appropriately described as countertransference – i.e., something that comes from the therapist, that is the therapist’s responsibility, not the client’s. These incidents remind me in some ways of a couple of things my last therapist said:
When I tried to talk about the counterproductive therapy I had had with previous therapists, he said, “Remember, I’ve had bad therapy, too.” I found it odd that he said, “remember,” since he’d never mentioned his having “bad therapy” before. So in the next session, I asked him if he could tell me (in the subsequent session, since I wanted to give him time to think, rather then pressuring him), if he could give me his definition of “bad therapy” and if he could (if he was willing; I wanted to respect his privacy) give me an example of what had been “bad therapy” for him. So in the subsequent session, he said his definition of bad therapy was therapy where the client does not move forward. In other words, he made no distinction between therapy that didn’t help and therapy that harmed. He also gave as an example of his own “bad therapy” a case of premarital counseling where, after the first session, he and his future wife agreed that the therapist didn’t share their values, so didn’t go back to that therapist.
In a session where I talked about being easily intimidated and having difficulty with being asked questions that put me on the spot (thinking primarily of therapy experiences), he said that people treated me that way because I spoke so precisely; they assumed that anyone who spoke that way was used to the kind of aggressive oral interaction which I in fact am not used to.
I appreciate your comment, “As if so much of therapy, from Freud onward, is rooted in real science.” I am a scientifically oriented person. When I first tried therapy, I naively assumed that psychologists and psychiatrists would also be scientifically oriented. My therapists #1 and 2 both seemed, not just unscientific, but anti-scientific, so I decided to try a psychiatrist after my counterproductive experiences with them. She was initially a tiny bit better, but soon became as capricious, arbitrary, and superficial as the first two.
In subsequent reading about psychiatry, I have learned that psychiatry is typically the last choice for a residency for medical students – and so psychiatry often gets the med students who were rejected by the other residency programs. Caveat emptor.
In subsequent reading about psychology, I have learned that there is quite a bit of animosity between the scientifically-oriented psychologists and the “I can rely on my intuition” types of psychologists – in fact, the more scientifically oriented types formed a separate organization, the Association for Psychological Science, in 1988. Yet, representatives of the American Psychological Association do appear to claim that clinicians use science – for references and discussion, see the Psychology Brown Bag February 2010 Psychotherapy Brown Bag Article “Is There a Research-Practice Gap? Not if You Listen to APA…” (the easiest way to get to it is a web search on “Is There a Research-Practice Gap?”, including the quotes). This is by Scott Lilienfeld, whom I mentioned in a previous post.
Lilienfeld has also recently written an article “Public Skepticism of Psychology: Why Many People Perceive the Study of Human Behavior as Unscientific,” that appeared in the June, 2011 issue of The American Psychologist. In it Lilienfeld said (p. 5), as an illustration of the anti-science perspective of some APA members, “A former president of APA, Ronald Fox (2000), wrote, ‘Psychologists do not have to apologize for their treatments. Nor is there any actual need to prove their effectiveness.’”
This Lilienfeld article is interesting reading, but I suspect that his view of the quality of science in psychology may be inflated. In the past couple of years, I have gotten enough past my feelings of intimidation regarding anything therapy related to actually read some research on therapy. (My education and many years work experience are in a STEM field, so I have quite a lot of experience reading and critiquing scientific papers.) My impression of the ones I have read is that the scientific quality is poor. (I realize that there is poor research in every scientific field, so there is the possibility that I haven’t yet hit on the good research in psychology.)
Taking all this into account, it appears to me that a prospective psychotherapy client seeking a good therapist may be caught between the Scylla of therapists who put their “clinical judgment” on a pedestal, and the Charybdis of the advocates of “empirically supported treatments,” which I am not convinced have as much sound evidence behind them as is claimed. There are some therapists who are not at either extreme, but finding them can be difficult. One therapist/reasearcher who has impressed me more than most is John C. Norcross. His book Clinician’s Guide to Evidence Based Practices (coauthored with Thomas P. Hogan and Gerald P. Koocher seems like a fairly reasonable discussion of the situation. As the title suggests, it is aimed at clinicians, but I think it should be fairly readable for many clients. I suspect, though, that few therapists follow the guidelines proposed in the book.
Disequilibrium: I definitely agree with your September 20 comment, “I DON’T regard the consulting room as a well-designed “laboratory” for a relationship. It’s very one-sided, it’s play acting. Anyone who relates to friends, co-workers or bosses like she relates to her therapist would be pretty…well…er…dysfunctional.” Therapy was so disconnected from the rest of my life; yet, regrettably, it crept into the rest of my life in various ways – and that was a big part of the harm from it.
Marina Williams: Thank you for your reply and clarifications. I am indeed aware that psychotherapy theories are not like physical theories – but the “framework” aspect of them is a big part of what I find problematical about them. The framework typically seems to influence what the therapist hears, how they conceptualize “help” (both ends and means), and the questions they ask. One of the frustrations I have found in therapy is dealing with the frameworks – trying to get the interaction out of them when they don’t fit. That has been a challenge that I have generally been unsuccessful at meeting. Therapy often has seemed like talking into a black hole: The therapist seems to hear only parts of what I say. Often parts that are very important to me (for example, qualifications, uncertainties, or complexities) are left out. It is certainly desirable to tailor the therapy to the client, but this may involve getting outside the therapist’s usual framework. In other words, the therapist may believe they have tailored the approach to the client, but the client may see the approach as not fitting.
I agree with Disequilibrium’s comment, “I hope the criticism, the discussion and even the–venting– will be valuable and maybe help both consumers and professionals synthesize new approaches. If we can be collaborators about therapy’s shortcomings and possibilities, together we might emerge with some new insights.” This seems in line with my comments in the preceding paragraph.
Marina W. (and/or other therapists reading this), one thing that might help us on this path would be if you could describe some things you have learned from clients (providing that their privacy is respected, of course) that have helped you improve your practice.
Disequelibrium1, I know exactly what you are talking about when you described how “re-living” certain past experiences together with the therapist harmed you and undermined your ability to function. It has been a big part of my own debilitating experience in therapy. There is a lot to say about this one. Many aspects are involved in this harmful dynamic, but the major reason why people get harmed this way is because many therapists are ignorant of how trauma functions in our body. Only recently, Peter Levine’s conceptualization of trauma opened our eyes to the dangerousness of forced catharsis. That is not to say that catharsis itself is dangerous. It depends on a person and on a situation. There have been many times in my life when catharsis helped me as it released a lot of inner pain I was unaware that I had. But I can compare it with physical exercises. We all know that being physically active improves our health, but if we constantly push ourselves to go far beyond our limits, our health mostly likely will be damaged. Also, releasing emotional pain, unlike exercises cannot be perfectly controlled. It’s easy to get stuck in that place and then we just dwell and feel miserable rather than release emotional toxins. Therefore, this experience may NEVER be forced on anyone. Besides, the requirement to experience it in a presence of a therapist unnecessary intensifies transference and creates dependency that is also very hard to break.
We are living creatures and, as every living creature, human organism has natural cycles just like everything in nature. There are times for sadness, times for joy, times for creativity and enthusiasm and for every other human experience. There are times when we naturally want to release our pain and there are times when we want to distance ourselves from it. Our body knows better what we need at each given moment than any therapist. This is what I have learned and I have learned it hard way.
Too bad I have to leave this discussion for a week. I’ll be out of town but I am looking forward to coming back.
Marina-It’s nice that I’m not the only one who felt that the forced and prolonged hand-wringing “catharsis” in therapy did not necessarily release a thing. I didn’t feel better. Nothing healed. I just got into very bad emotional habits revisiting so much sadness and misfortune, trying to be a good client. I wish I’d put my emotions into the half-full part of the glass. Have safe travels. I’m enjoying the discussion.
Mary-thanks again for the reading resources. I can’t possibly see how researchers possibly could evaluate anything except perhaps physiological changes (blood pressure, hormones, brain patterns?) But to monitor “improvements,” accurately, it would take a reality-television crew, and even then there might not be agreement, is this person living a better life.
In replying to my complaint, my therapist congratulated himself that I was thriving under his care, when nothing could be further from the truth. I thought a coo-ing, phony therapist was helping me, by becoming my mother substitute. That was fine in the short term, but undermining to lasting changes.
Becoming a more functional, effective adult ultimately is what helps me “feel better.”
I even disagree, to some extent ,with the “boundary setting” that so therapists preach. In some situations, it’s not pragmatically advisable to take a big stand on one’s behalf, and that’s when maturity and skill (which therapy can’t teach) come into play.
I”ll be interested what Norcross has explored. .
Marina T, Thank you for providing the link to the interview with you – and thank you for doing the interview. Here are some comments:
1. I agree to a great extent with your paragraph beginning “Before we explore …” but would like to add some subtleties.
First, sometimes a therapist’s needs and a client’s are compatible. That’s what sometimes makes it so hard to give evidence that a therapist has done something harmful – a therapist may be able to provide evidence of successful therapy with many clients, so might make the case that “something was wrong with this particular client” when they harm rather than help. The key is in your phrases “fulfill his or her needs instead of attending to the needs of the patient” (with emphasis on “instead of”) and “are confident that they act in their patients’ best interests.” Indeed, one thing that has concerned me repeatedly about therapists is that so many of them seem overconfident. Although becoming more self-confident was something I initially hoped for as a result of therapy, instead I become afraid of being overconfident, like the therapists.
Second, I’d like to add the following to the list of possible therapist “needs” that might lead to harmful therapy: The need for intimacy (this is a good example of a need that might be compatible with helping some clients but can lead to harm for others); the need to gratify their curiosity, especially in a titillating way; the need to “prove” their theory right; the need to be appreciated (e.g., for their warmth or for their ability to understand people); the need to confront or argue; the need to show their prowess at one-upmanship; the need to “mold” others (although the latter two might be special cases of the need for power); the need to be seen as an idea person, or to be seen as sophisticated and erudite, etc.; the need to play Sherlock Holmes in diagnosing, etc; the need to get their “fix” when the client “gets it.” (The last actually was something one therapist said to me, although he didn’t use the word “fix” – he said that what keeps him going as a therapist is when the client “gets it”.) I’m sure the list could be extended.
Third, although I agree that in many cases clients “get easily seduced by the special treatment they get” and “misperceive the therapist’s inappropriate behavior as loving and caring,” these do not occur in all cases where therapy harms. The client might just be easily intimidated – and come to therapy in part to learn not to be. This was the case with me. I tended to blame myself and internalize the therapists’ negative comments (e.g., “You expect too much” from one; “I can’t help you if you take everything I take as criticism” from another – even though I wasn’t taking everything she said as criticism.) So one could argue that the problem was me, and that’s what I tended to do. On the other hand, I was aware of the problem, was working on it before therapy, and hoped for help with it in therapy. Catch 22.
2. As you suggest, your list of “common signs of abuse” may not all fit in all cases. In the hope that it may be helpful to other clients who have experienced harmful therapy and/or therapists trying to help such clients, I will use my case as a specific example of one possible variation from the general pattern you give: For me, #1 did not apply. I feared therapy sessions, but kept going to “try to be brave and take the music.” #2 and #3 did apply. So did #4, but not in the way you describe. Instead, I felt more and more ashamed – – because I “needed” therapy and because I wasn’t good at it. This led to avoidance of family and friends. I was afraid I might slip and let someone know my “shameful secret.” Aspects of #5 definitely applied: I felt worse and worse, to some extent lost interest in activities that I previously enjoyed, and felt ashamed – but not of the dependency, but for the reasons mentioned above. I did start feeling suicidal; this is part of what, thankfully, finally convinced me to quit therapist 2. I don’t think #6 applied, at least not as stated. I was very aware of thinking that the therapist behavior was inappropriate, but somehow felt I deserved it – I tended to feel ashamed for complaining, for believing it was inappropriate, or for not being able to do anything about it. It just reinforced the belief, which I had been trying to shake, that I was inherently a second class citizen. I also started seeing myself as hypersensitive. The progress on my problems that I had made in the year preceding therapy mostly deteriorated. #7 did not apply – there weren’t any emotional highs in my therapy experience. The closest was the time therapist 2 slouched down in her chair and said, in a way that sounded very genuine, “I don’t understand you!” There was a momentary hope that finally she realized, and maybe things would turn around. But it was fleeting, since she quickly sat upright and went on with something that seemed like a change of subject.
One reason I may not fit your “prototype” of signs is that I don’t fit the profile your description seems to assume of going to therapy for help dealing with childhood abuse. I did have some gripes about my mother, but after experiences with three really poor therapists, I realized she wasn’t as bad a mother as any of those three would have been.
3. The section “What are the potential dangers of abuse in therapy” again seems to presuppose an experience different from mine. I didn’t admire or idealize any of my therapists; I didn’t feel loved, cared for, or rescued by them. I just felt lost in a whirlpool of behavior that didn’t make sense to me, and tended to feel ashamed for having difficulty coping with it and for thinking that the therapists’ behavior was unreasonable. To some extent, I wanted to trust them, I wanted evidence that they were right. I didn’t know where to turn, especially after three negative experiences.
I gave myself six months to “get over it” after therapist 3. When I hadn’t, I tried another therapist. Although the particulars were different, it was a similar experience in that he seemed to jump to conclusions on the basis of minimal evidence and made assertions that didn’t make sense and weren’t backed up. I tried off and on for several years. About five years later, one therapist did indicate that the original therapists’ behavior was inappropriate, by saying, “That ain’t the way it’s s’posed to be.” I did have a considerable drop in my anxiety level with him, but then he started doing things that didn’t make sense to me. I wouldn’t call them inappropriate in the sense that the previous therapist behaviors had seemed inappropriate and shocking, but they seemed like coming from a belief system that was like a religion to me, so I quit seeing him, but left with kindly feelings toward him. So I can agree with your statement “their mistrust is often reality based.” I’m not entirely sure I agree with your analysis about the power imbalance relationship, although I think there was some element of power imbalance going on. Part of my hesitancy is because the concept of “power” is pretty fuzzy for me. But, I think more than that, there are questions about human differences that need to be addressed in talking about problematical therapy: differences in values, worldview, and customs.
Also, I don’t think it was my intellect that was telling me that the therapist was an expert. My intellect was telling me, “My gosh, this person is really out of it!” but my emotions were saying, “Oh, no, they’re an expert; who are you to question them!” I needed to trust my intellect more than my emotions, but the therapists appealed to my emotions, and (at least for the three initial therapists) dismissed my intellect.
Possibly therapy has changed since the mid-eighties enough that getting a second opinion is more likely to be helpful now that it was then. But I’m not convinced.
Mary, I found myself with the same conflict between my emotions and my intellect. To listen to me talk to the therapist, you’d think I was OK. I told him what he was doing wasn’t therapy and left. Feelings–have taken years to untangle, including a guilt that I somehow was truant in the School of Life somehow. Illogical, I know.
Now I realize that even the extremely “sweet” therapist, while giving me comfort, also was –sweetly–undermining my deep-set need to be a confident, autonomous adult.
All this made my maturation, the process of independence from my parents, far more complicated than it needed to be.
Wow, really interesting discussion in the comments lately!
One of the Marinas wrote:
but having spent a considerable time inside therapeutic community and, particularly, inside psychoanalytic community, I can tell you that all those wonderful articles that they write and studies that they conduct have not so far changed a thing in terms of what is continuing to take place in therapy rooms
That’s where I went wrong – believing that my therapist was a responsible, ethical health care professional who knew she wasn’t supposed to do all those harmful things from the bad old days of therapy. I thought the whole profession was past all that. But no.
I think much of the problem –seriously–is the theory. Human interactions are codified, categorized and abstracted them beyond recognizability. So basic states like arrogance, obstinance, dominance and self-delusion aren’t considered. The consulting room becomes a pseudo-world.
A couple of comments showed up on my dashboard, but not on the actual blog. I don’t know if this is a software glitch or they were deleted.
Hi, just checking to see if it’s ok to air my own therapist grievance here? I’m actually looking for support in making a decision and I’m riddled with fear and guilt.
1234nyc, you’re most welcome. There are a couple of therapists in the discussion–the rest of us will be peers-with-opinions. I know that guilt-fear thing extremely well. This website, with peer networking is another resource.
http://www.therapyabuse.org/
Hey 1234nyc – You’ve got my support. If you’re thinking of quitting therapy, I say: just do it. It’s your time, your money, your life. You don’t have to justify your decision to anyone. You can always find another therapist.
Ok, thanks! My grievance is for the peers-with-opinions only, not the therapists, if that’s possible.
I’ve been with my current therapist for 16 years. I have received a lot of help from him actually and he has helped me navigate through many different love relationships and troubles in my life. My childhood has come up from time to time. I’ve had an ongoing eating disorder that is under control though it plagues me still in times of stress.
Three months ago, I left a cult-like religious organization that I was involved with since 1994 and was very heavily involved. My work in therapy actually guided me to ultimately leave the organization, since it was surpressing the truth of my childhood to such an extent that I was no longer relating to others in a real way. I was superior to all because I was part of this elitist group of advanced souls. Embarrassing to relate, but there it is.
In trying to figure out why I was so attracted to this religious group and would subsume myself like that, I started reading Alice Miller’s books – almost all of them. I was a little shocked by what I found, but it made perfect sense.
Now, eventhough I’m aware that my therapist has helped me, I’m a little upset in thinking that it could be entirely possible that I don’t want to be in any kind of system of thought or any kind of system of therapy at all. In other words, I just want to be on my own and live my life as me, whatever that means. I honestly don’t trust my therapist anymore and I don’t want to do anymore gestalt chair work or do exercises to change me. It feels like I’ve spent a thousand years trying to change myself. Enough with the exercises and manipulation. If I’m angry at someone, I’m angry at someone. If I’m tired, I’m tired. If I don’t trust you, I don’t trust you, etc, etc.
The nitty-gritty of it all is that I’m realy doubting whether gestalt is right for me anymore. After reading Alice Miller’s books, it seems shallow to me now and very simplistic, almost naive.
It’s impossible to give you a complete picture, but this is like a really rough sketch. I guess any reactions or thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks for listening.
I feel very much in the same boat, where I decided enough with the exercises, systems and “self improvement” (that didn’t) already.
I think we’re attracted to powerful therapists, and cults because we NEED to believe in a strong, wise force, much like we once saw our parents. Then a time comes when we see those folks as flawed mortals, just like us. I think it’s part of maturation. I think most people in our society are governed by this “authoritarian structure.” It’s the way we were raised and schooled.
The more I review my therapy, the more convinced I am I bought snake oil and was an agent in my own abuse. It’s embarrassing. I feel guilt and fear for not succeeding at their system. Yet another side of me knows it’s MY life, not their world. I no longer believe that therapy could have offered any miraculous transformations.
That since I left, I’ve since discovered Life, problem solving, and understanding other viewpoints to be much more healing than all the manipulations of therapy. I can hold viewpoints more fearlessly, be more forgiving…sometimes…cope…sometimes…with difficult situations. So growth doesn’t stop leaving therapy. For me, it actually started.
I’m guessing you googled your way here to get support leaving, as opposed to googling your way somewhere else.
You’re going to learn much about your therapist when you tell him you want to leave. If you suspect HE’S so dependent, he’ll freak destructively, you do have the option of just leaving. You might know him well enough to sense his reaction. No matter what he does, it’s your life and your therapy, as someone here said.
One note, the therapists are here because they’ve been abused themselves. If they want to respond, maybe they could do it…with their peer hats on…:-), if that’s OK with you.
It’s ok for the therapists to respond, but I won’t be able to listen to any advice that is therapeutically driven.
I’m still mulling over your response – thank you for that, and wanted to add another question. Has anyone here had any negative reactions to gestalt therapy? I feel a little nuts that I’m so opposed to it now and would like to feel a little less nuts. It seems too formulaic and built on really simplistic principles.
After I left therapy I inadvertently found myself a few times in a situations with its overtones, and stayed removed from it.
I’m not familiar with gestalt therapy, but all my therapy was simplistic, formulaic and unrealistic magical. So yes, I definitely felt I was led down the garden path. As nutty as I felt I remember 1) our culture pushes this therapy mythology 2) the therapists particularly believed their own stories.
I believe several posts above parallel your process, As Ann said,”As a culture, we are primed religiously and politically for “redemptive dependencies” and they can be bugger-all to relinquish.”
Hi 1234 nyc – First – Gestalt therapy. Oh jeez. My ex-therapist was using those techniques on me (in a covert way, i.e. without my prior knowledge and consent) and when I caught on and researched Gestalt, yikes! (I mean to post a lot more about this on my blog.) Gestalt has links to cultic organizations and therapies like est, Scientology, etc. It’s actually really interesting to trace the development of all these therapies. Many of the gurus/originators worked and studied together at various points.
Anyway, YES, enough of the chair work!
But you know what? I think you said something very healthy:
I just want to be on my own and live my life as me, whatever that means.
Honestly I think that is all you need to say to your therapist. Sure, he might freak, he might pressure to you explain your decision or stick around for some termination sessions or whatever, but you don’t have to. You can do the old say-goodbye-on-voicemail move to avoid hassle and drama. Therapists tend to frown on this but so what? This is about YOU. YOU are ready to go.
Still reflecting from these wonderful responses, thank you! Here’s a great quote, imho, from Alice Miller’s web page “FAQ: How to find the right therapist”.
4.I feel guilty because of my mistrust. If I can’t trust I will never find what is good for me.
Your mistrust has a history and your need for SPECIAL understanding too. Your caregiver didn’t deserve your trust and the child felt this very strongly because his body knew the truth. It couldn’t develop trust. Now, trust your body signals, it is the silenced child who is speaking, who starts to talk and needs your truthfulness. If you don’t feel good with a person, take your feelings seriously, don’t push them away, try to understand these feelings. Once you feel truly and deeply understood by someone, your body will let you know this immediately and very clearly, it will be relaxed without any special exercises.
Your process is spurring mine, and my morning thought whirled around how I could have been so slavish–to anyone. My goal is now is more an interdependence rather than putting myself in anyone else’s hands.
I question Miller in that while many people help us along the way, I don’t believe will be anyone that special and completely trustworthy and think that myth is a disservice. At best, I think, some of the people will help us some of the time.
Sometimes I try to wipe the slate clean and imagine my life free of therapy-culture influences. This is nigh to impossible, but I try. My most “healing” steps have been my friendships, my competencies, meeting goals, working through difficult situations, and in some cases, working with abusive people whom I needed in that moment. And instead of more self-understanding it’s helped me to understand- what’s ticking with others who hurt me. Sometimes I can calm someone else’s fears and get him focused.
Therapists so brainwash us to be dependent, it can be difficult to imagine that civilization did progress without them. Columbus discovered America, explorers moved West, long before they arrived.
Contradictory, this process of meditating myself AWAY from my navel.:-) (Hope I’m kinda making sense.)
Marina T, Thank you especially for your first post of Sept. 24 in response to my list of articles on harmful therapy. Several comments:
First, your experience of your therapist perpetrator being on his professional society’s ethics committee was eye-opening for me – not because I couldn’t believe that would happen, but because my therapist #2 (who definitely did not work on an informed consent basis – not even a written agreement as to payment policies) has also taken the “ethics expert” route – e.g. teaching a course in ethics. I had hoped that this was a unique situation, but your comments make me wonder just how common it is. In other words, I wonder how many ethics committees are dominated by such people.
One thing that might be helpful in improving the lack of effective disciplinary action among psychotherapists would be to try to get suitable public interest groups involved. One such is Public Citizen. They have a Health Research Group that includes a project on pushing states to improve physician accountability (see http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=1248), so it might be worthwhile urging them to expand to include non-physician “mental health” services. (Unfortunately, their contact information does not include an email address, just snail mail and phone.) I’ve been thinking of contacting them about this issue in any event, so will put it on my definite to-do list. I encourage others to do so. Does anyone else know of other groups that might be worth trying to urge to move into this field?
But perhaps you are wrong when you refer to your ex-therapist’s involvement with the ethics committee as striking a deal with his conscience. It may be that he has no conscience, and that his involvement on the ethics committee is instead an effort to improve his reputation.
The subsequent therapist’s saying “This subject is very unnerving for therapists to talk about” does seem like an extreme cop-out. Clients often talk in therapy about things that are very unnerving for them. I, for one, would like a therapist who sets a good example. But, in my experience, they so often seem just the opposite of a good example.
But measures in addition to disciplinary actions are important to decrease the incidence of harmful therapy. I am more hopeful than you that some of the articles I mentioned are indeed the beginnings of improvement. For example, Lambert’s work is a concrete effort to reduce the incidence of harm, and Lilienfeld’s efforts to caution against use of specific methods known to cause harm are likely to have some effect. Also, he has shown (in the other article I mentioned by him in a later post) willingness to name names in decrying the lack of caring about accountability by “leaders” in the profession. Although I don’t think the Castonguay et al paper is of the same caliber as the Lambert and Lilienfeld papers, they state the importance of screening potential therapists before and during their training to weed out those who are likely to cause harm. This is one of those “unnerving” things that the profession has avoided discussing in the past. And, of course, efforts such as you are taking to inform consumers of therapy of potential problems are important. I see all of these as complementary signs of progress – all of these are needed, in addition to improvement of the disciplinary process. Two other factors that make the chances better that at least some reforms will be instituted than in the past are the existence of the web, which has made the discussion more public than it was twenty years ago, and the increasing pressure for accountability from insurers. The psychotherapy professions have been pushing for “parity” for mental health (i.e., insurance coverage on terms similar to those for physical health), and as that is becoming more a reality, the professions are coming under more scrutiny.
Unfortunately, it will never be possible to eliminate all unethical practitioners (compare physicians and politicians), but I am hopeful that at least some improvement is beginning.
Interesting, my offending therapist also did a term on his state’s grievance board and I heard of another instance of the offender actually on the board when he committed his offense. Maybe this is like the philandering evangelist, I don’t know.
I’m really challenging here, but there are many levels of offense–outright exploitations that violated therapists’ current ethics–sexual, economic, interest conflicts. Then there are the more subtle emotional abuses we’ve discussed. Beyond that are the more “garden path” transgressions, which treatment is seemingly benign but in its way harmful and ineffectual. I think therapy needs to be examined on all these levels. There is so much grand theory which effectively discounts the end user.
Marina T, Thank you for posting the link to Michelle Webster’s article. Like Disequilibrium, I have mixed feelings about it, although not exactly in the same way she does – but don’t think I’m up to articulating them. I appreciate your comment in your response to her that “if therapist is simply respectful and reasonably attentive to client’s needs, that by itself would provide a corrective emotional experience to many people regardless of their history.” That I can definitely agree with – but it seems so rare.
One thing I noticed when I started reading Webster’s article was the year, 1991, which triggered the memory that in 1991, I tried therapy again, hoping that talking about my previous therapy experiences would help me get past them. The therapist in some ways seemed better than others I had tried – in particular, she sometimes said things that were not as simplistic as other therapists had said, which gave me the impression that she was somewhat more in touch with the real world. But when I talked about my previous experiences in therapy, she commented ,”Well, at least they’re beginning to crack down on therapists getting sexually involved with clients.” That’s nowhere as bad as the therapist comment in Webster’s article about how being abused by the client’s brother wouldn’t be as bad as being abused by her father, but I still think it’s pretty insensitive and unprofessional. I do believe the therapy professions are finally beginning to move a little beyond the 1991 general state of affairs, but it is definitely slow moving. One thing that I take as a sign of progress is the results I found when I tried to look for references to Webster’s article and to Lilienfeld’s article Psychological Treatments that Cause Harm. I found only one journal article referencing Webster’s article, and two pages of hits in a Google search on it. In contrast, I found sixty journal article citations and 19 pages of Google hits for Lilienfeld’s. Some of the articles look interesting, so I’ll try to look them up when I get a chance.
By the way, has anyone else read Bad Therapy: Master Therapists Share Their Worst Failures, by Jeffery A Kottler and Jon Carlson? I wouldn’t go so far as to say I recommend it, but it is telling in a sense. The idea, that “master” therapists should describe their worst failures so that other therapist can learn from their mistakes, seems good. But what I found disappointing are the attitudes that the majority of the therapists involved show toward their mistakes. Some of them are outrageously insensitive toward the clients. Only a few of the therapists came across as really decent people that I might consider trying as a therapist. Also, the editors seemed to have their own agenda of drawing out the contributors about their childhood experiences and how they influenced their practices.
Admittedly I skim-read Kottler’s “Master Therapists….” only because it didn’t touch me personally. What I got, maybe unfairly, was a self-congratulatory sense as opposed to any real humility. I can’t “defend” this impression and since I didn’t read the book carefully, this might be quite skewed.
When I read an interesting decades-old book, I do long for a follow-up that reveals if the author has updated thinking or perspectives about the profession.
Because the malpractices I experienced were more subtle, I connected to the broader critiques, Tana Dineen’s Manufacturing Victims, Yvonne Bate’s Shouldn’t I be Feeling Better by Now, Bernard Zilbergeld’s The Shrinking of America and David Smail. Just reread parts of Masson’s Against Therapy, and wished he’d written another book taking off on this “conclusion” chapter,
I agree with other authors we have a need to “sages” in our lives. I wish the sages were more honest in what they can and can’t provide.
123nyc: If you’re doubting whether gestalt is right for you anymore, then it probably isn’t right for you anymore. You’re not nuts for being so opposed to it now. Sometimes something is helpful until we grow, then we need to – well, grow beyond it. Sounds like you’re ready to do that.
Disequilibrium: Your skepticism (September 27 post) that researchers can’t measure improvement in the sense of ”Is this person living a better life” is indeed warranted. In therapy research, “improvement” is measured by the “instruments” that are used to make the diagnosis for the “disorder” being treated – which begs the question, “Is the diagnosis, (hence the treatment) addressing the client’s concerns?” But my impression is that the question of “deterioration” is often addressed in more than one way: In addition to deterioration as measured by the criteria for the diagnosis, other types of deterioration are sometimes (and should always) be considered as well – for example, questions such as, “Is therapy helpful?” may be used, or signs of developing additional problems.
I definitely agree with your Sept. 28 comments that theory is often the problem – this seems to be the case in Webster’s article. The theory is too one-size-fits-all; real life has a tremendous diversity of human thought, belief, behavior, and their interactions.
Re Sept. 30: So now we have four cases of therapists practicing questionable therapy who have the veneer of “ethics expert”. I agree that therapy needs to be examined on all the levels of offense and transgression that you list. Also that the grand theories (plural added) effectively discount the end user. This fits into my earlier comments that all too often the client is seen as an object for the therapist’s imagination to work on, not as a real person to be helped in a way that makes sense to the client. (That being said, I realize we often don’t see others as they really are – but the therapy theories, I believe, worsen this natural tendency by providing a pre-existing framework that often serves to constrain the therapist’s observation skills: They tend to see what the theory says is there.)
Re Oct. 1: Yes, “self-congratulatory” fits with my impression of most of Kottler and Carlson’s book. I do recall a couple of contributors, however, who seemed to exhibit some humility – but definitely a small minority. Humility (at least, the genuine, “There’s a lot I don’t know” kind, rather than the almost bragging, “In my humble opinion …” type) is something I value, and a quality I’d like to see in a therapist. I was amazed that therapists, on average, seem to have much less of it than most people I encounter.
Yvonne Bates’ book was in fact an important find for me in the difficult, ongoing process of dealing with my negative experiences with therapy. I wrote some things for the newsletter, Ipnosis, that she edits (or did edit), and participated in a web discussion group (on a site that is now defunct) that had summaries in Ipnosis. In contrast to the book, I found both of those unpleasant. Most of the participants in the web discussion group were therapists, and didn’t seem interested in taking my views seriously. For example, one responded to my discussion of things I considered counterproductive for me in therapy by saying that omitting those “would be like asking me to practice with my hands tied behind my back.” The newsletter also contained some distressing articles. Examples include some “theory of everything therapy” articles of the sort that you and I question, and a column by a therapist who was the subject of complaints by several clients for a cult-type practice. Also, Bates herself seemed uncomfortably (to me) fascinated by the “falling in love with the therapist” type of transference. So while I appreciated the book, I found the activities they lead to quite demoralizing.
One thing I did appreciate about Bates’ book was that it was not as strident as some of the other books you mention. Frankly, I have been uncomfortable with much of the use of the word “abuse” in connection with therapy, although I have been getting a little more tolerant of it in participating in this blog, deciding that it is at least in part a difference in values or subcultures that needs to be respected as individual differences. (I certainly have no qualms in using it in some cases, such as when therapists seduce clients sexually.) You might have noticed that I tend not to use it, referring instead to harmful therapy, counterproductive therapy, or iatrogenic therapy. But one thing I did appreciate about Tana Dineen’s writing in particular was her phrase, “The clothes have no emperor.” Often in therapy, the phrase “the emperor has no clothes,” has come to mind, but Dineen’s twist on the phrase might be more apt for the situation.
I don’t know if I’d say we “need” sages in our lives so much as we “want” sages. Unfortunately, there are many un-sage people (especially in the therapy professions) who are ready and willing to adopt the role of sage. When I went to therapy, I was looking in large part for a role model, someone who set a good example. What I found was quite the opposite. I so often thought, “I don’t want to be like this person; they don’t exhibit the values I’d like to live by.” But after the first one, I felt helpless and kept trying to look for help. I didn’t know where else to turn.
Professional literature generally has impressed me as one-sided and self-congratulatory. A practitioner has some brilliant testimony, but we never hear from the recipient of this masterful treatment. I recall David Smail calling the literature condescending if not downright contemptuous, and I agree.
“Results” are extremely difficult to measure for many reasons: participants have tremendous investments, plus what initially might be soothing and reassuring often is not beneficial for the long term. Is the client actually taught to fish or merely provided a meal? I’m sure many of us have known others who are obliviously antagonistic or nonfunctional, yet swearing by some therapist, evidently soothing but failing to provide awareness of fellow beings. (I recently saw a Broadway monologuist, who’d led a privileged life, bitterly wearing her defects like a trophy, and labeling herself as a case that 12 therapists were needed to shore up.)
I’d like to see evaluations, from clients, 5-, 10-, 20-years out as to whether therapy truly provided turning points in their lives. I’d like to see licensing board complaints studied. I’d like to see interventions evaluated from a “real life” yardstick. If it’s condescending and manipulative at the dinner table, it’s similarly so in the consulting room.
That’s ashamed about Bates’ and her circle, since I felt the book at least toward the right direction in that it entertained feedback. I too question the encouragement of transference and generally found it a step toward role play and dependence and away from reality and autonomy. I also dislike the word “abuse,” for its use seems better reserved for more extreme interactions, and prefer the word harmful, yet realize its common use to describe everything from light bullying on.
I’ll assume we all have individual degrees of wanting or needing sages. I was quite deferential as a young adult, and was in the “need” category. We’re raised generally to depend on strong leaders–wise or not– and defer to authority. Based on my experiences, I’m sure many a therapist has reinforced this makeup. We all have pockets of flaws and failures, and it’s easily for a therapist to manipulate them for gratification and profit.
1234nyc; There are critiques of Gestalt, and Perls around the web as well as Jeffrey Masson’s “Against Therapy” book. I had my own bad experience with a traveling teacher from Esalen, pretending to teach writing, then turning the class into an confessional/unlicensed therapy session which clearly delivered her some personal payoff, I’ve been conned, and I can’t swear in my now middle-age I’ll never be conned again. And like Mary said, we also can outgrow something that does help us in one moment.
My goal now is less self-absorption, less quest-for-understanding and more doing and living. When I encounter “difficult” people, I try to work with their pain and fear. It’s worked much better for me than the hours of introspection led by therapists. Seeing through and walking from con artists can be a painful, but great thing ultimately.
Well, today was my last therapy session and my therapist was very respectful and let me go. I said I wanted to live my life on my own and be me.
Thank you all for your support. I don’t think I would have been able to take that step so easily without your encouragement.
I feel already like a babe lost in the woods, but that’s to be expected…
Cheers!
I am still out of town but got a chance to go online and skim-read the latest posts. For now, I just would like to correct some facts about http://www.therapyabuse.org (TELL) website, since I have been corresponding with them and receiving support from them for some time.
TELL website and TELL organization are NOTHING like this blog. They have a very specific purpose of helping those, who have been sexually abused by their therapists. TELL members don’t see their experiences simply as harmful therapy. They define it very precisely as abuse and that is how I define my experience as well. TELL doesn’t have same views on therapy as the participants of this discussion do with may be a couple of exemptions (I know one person there, who would agree with SOME of the ideas discussed here). In fact, TherapyAbuse as a group is quite traditional in their views on therapy and doesn’t believe that the whole therapy profession needs to change. They believe that there are certain therapists, who are unfit to do therapy work and should not be allowed to practice, but they don’t have a problem with the whole profession. That’s what http://www.therapyabuse.org is about:-) So, they might not be the best place to refer to, if the referred individual has suffered from harmful therapy other then sexual abuse from their therapist (which doesn’t have to be a consummated sexual involvement, by the way).
Also, TELL respondents don’t divide themselves into “peers” and “non- peers”. They have both, therapists and non- therapists, among their members and they all see themselves being in the same boat. When I contacted TELL the first time asking for help, no one “warned” me that along with “peer” support I might also get a ” therapeutically- driven” advice. It is clearly said on their website that even though some of their respondents are therapists, TELL does not provide therapy, only emotional support. Frankly, no one who contacts them cares if the responding person will be a therapist or not. When you have gone through the same experience that I and TELL people have gone through, you just desperately need to talk to somebody who have ” been there, done that” because you know that no one else can understand. That being said, it’ll probably be impossible for me to explain here why abuse doesn’t have to be anything extreme or even obviously hurtful and, in fact, believe it or not, could even be enjoyable on some level! One has to live it in order to understand it. It’ll also be impossible for me to explain such a “fuzzy” concept as a power imbalance in therapeutic and many other relationships, as well as to explain why those, who have experienced what I experienced in my last therapy, would always see their experiences precisely as abuses, not ” harmful therapies”.
1234nyc, cheers. So glad that went well and your guy was calm and it was respectful. Whew. Major congratulations. I did feel like a babe in the woods when I was “sprung” and since had concentrated in not defining myself through therapists’ filters. Those events we would-have-discussed-with-our-therapists continue, but happily, we handle ’em.
————
Marina, I assume our experiences at TELL are as individual as those we correspond with there. I was matched with others who’d experienced non-sexual abuse, and my private conversations over the years have gotten around to many things we’ve talked about here. But yes, this depends on whom you’re matched with. My specific correspondent went through training, but then didn’t go into practice.
My bad experiences in therapy ran the gamut from outright manipulation, bullying and invalidation (the most abusive parts) to more subtle subjugation. Because I began therapy as a quite deferential young woman, I think the “powerful sage” figure was the last thing I needed. The worst was the therapist’s out-of-control rage, but the subtle damage was well-meaning professionals practicing bad theories. In my opinion, we each have our experiences, and and its our call how we label them.
Just found a book I was trying to remember in an above discussion about power and abuses in psychotherapy training.
On one hand, I’m happy to see this discussion. On the other hand, I’m amused how professionals express their indignation when the abuse happens to THEM, but complaining clients too often are invalidated and dismissed.
123nyc, I’m very glad to hear that your therapist was respectful of your choice to end therapy. That makes the difficult task of “weaning” yourself from therapy a little less difficult. And it’s just good to hear accounts of therapists who behave in a respectful manner. Also, one thing I forgot to mention earlier is that many therapists consider their job to be getting you to the point where you can go it on your own, without their help.
Marina, thank you for your discussion of the difference between this website and TELL – and Disequilibrium, thank you for contributing your experience with TELL. Those should be helpful for others looking for support for “bad” therapy experiences.
I certainly would use the word “abuse” for some therapist behaviors (including sexual seduction of a client by a therapist, whether or not consummated and whether or not the client enjoyed it at the time). I also consider most “cult” type therapists to be abusive. There are other practices that I consider to be in a gray area – I respect others’ right to call them abuse, but I am not comfortable with that label in all such situations. Depending on the situation, I might call them one or more of unethical (e.g., evading informed consent), insensitive, harmful, counterproductive, incompetent, etc. That is simply a matter of my own personal preferences, one aspect of a general preference for moderation and distinctions in language. Indeed, one problem I had with most therapists I tried was precisely that they tended not to be moderate and to lump lots of things into one label. I was uncomfortable with their (to me) extreme language; it didn’t fit the real world as I see it. In fact, sometimes it gave the effect of distorting what I said.
Also, I do believe that there is usually (but not always) a power imbalance between therapist and client, but would be leery if you did attempt to give an explanation of it, because I believe that just what it is can vary from case to case. In my case, there was a power imbalance because I was there in large part because I am uncomfortable with personal attention, was not very adept with oral communication, and tended to have difficulty dealing with authoritarian and domineering people. I expected an uncomfortable amount of personal attention as inherent in therapy for me, but was totally unprepared for the type of attention (and the lack of informed consent), and the authoritarian and domineering therapists. I am also aware that not all therapists are as domineering and authoritarian as the ones I happened to encounter 1, 2, 3. If I had happened on a different therapist at attempt 1, 2, or 3, things may have proceeded differently. But maybe not – maybe I am just too “different” for therapy, or at least with all but a very unusual therapist. I do agree with Disequilibrium that there are many well-intended but misguided therapists as well. And there are therapists who realize with regret that they have been misguided in at least some cases (for example, that they have bought into what they were taught, when it was not all it was cracked up to be).
Disequilibrium, thanks for mentioning the Power Games book. I’ve looked it up just enough to get the impression that it focuses on psychoanalytic training, but it would be interesting to see what aspects of it might apply to other training as well, and what therapists in other theoretical orientations think about it.
As far as I’m concerned, any handle or label to understand a difficult experience is useful and justified. I personally shy from the word “abuse” because it carries–for me–overtones of some therapy-think which I’m trying to avoid. My worst experiences were derision, bullying and dismissals, which would have a much softer imprint had I not seen my therapist as a guru-savior. The softer damage was their encouraging infantilization and magical thinking.
I’m so averse to the therapy culture, when someone starts pulling out the “my in-law is SO borderline,” or has a ” my ex has Narcissistic Personality Disorder,” I cringe.
Power imbalances: story of my life. I used to whither in the presence of domineering people. I won’t claim to be King Kong, but life has taught me better to hold my own. Astute therapists might have noticed this and done their best to dismantle this dynamic in therapy, but instead they cultivated it. Because of my “subordinate” reflexes, I’ve struggled with power imbalances in many forms both professionally and socially. So I wonder if any therapist could ever help someone with my makeup, given that power always will be imbalanced.
Disequilibrium1, it seems that you just disagreed with Mary S. You said that power always will be imbalanced in therapy and I see it the same way. (By the way, this is why just like you I don’t think I would be in therapy ever again). May S. said that power is not always imbalanced in therapy and that it varies from case to case. Looks like right now it is a discussion between you and Mary S. Since Mary S. would be leery if I attempt to explain why power imbalance always exists in therapy, I certainly will not make such attempts. It has been a major theme of my life-trying to explain my visions to those who were leery of my explanations, and I feel like changing this theme because it kinda doesn’t feel good any more.
The only explanation I would like to give you Mary S. right now is that I never attempt to claim that my visions reflect some kind of universal truth. I myself hate when people make such claims, and I am well aware that life is way too complex to be squeezed into some neat little theories and rules. I think, however, that, our individual experiences give us visions of life that we get very attached to that become our individual truths, and, I believe that there is nothing wrong with it. If I have certain visions on certain subjects (like in my article, f.e) that doesn’t mean that I am claiming that my visions are the only right ones. If you got the impression that I make such claims, I assure you that it has never even crossed my mind. I find it unnecessary to include “I think”, “in my opinion”, “in my view” etc in every single sentence in order to continuously reiterate that my visions are subjective. I believe, it should be clear by default. I appreciate though that you noticed that abuse or harmful therapy (whatever you wish to call it) is a much broader phenomena than what I described in my article. Next time I write something else on this subject, I will include a little disclaimer saying that I am talking about a very specific experience of seduction in therapy. As far as your other observations, I appreciate your thorough review of the article but don’t have anything to say in response because the article was not meant to describe broader range of experiences that you are talking about. You are absolutely right about every single point that you mentioned, but whether you are right or wrong is beside the point, as, once again, it was not my aim to describe every possible case of how abuse/harm may occur in therapy.
As to TELL, I am glad Disequilibrium1 that you received support from them even though the harm that you experienced in therapy was different from what they had experienced. I am a little surprised that there was some matching process that they did in order to find a match for you, because when I contacted them and sent a group message, everybody who received it responded, so by now I have corresponded with 7 people. This is exactly what their website says about how they respond to those who need help. I suppose they found a specific match for you because your case was different from what they usually deal with.
I’m “agnostic” on many subjects: the potential of therapy, can there ever be a power balance, OR can the power balance be minimized to not interfere with mentoring and problem solving. I can only speak from my experience. and my.
Actually, my most low-agenda therapist was a Horneyan analyst, who did say useful things, who didn’t make me feel accountable to her. However, I think the analysis process itself only encouraged harmful self-obsession. She truly believed in it, and I do trust her sincerity in that it made a difference in her life.
I’ll assume I received no special treatment from TELL–I went to them many years ago, when presumably they had a different procedure. I renewed my relationship when I asked for input for this and the other blog post I have on Mentalhelpnet.
I also speak from my experience only and have never claimed otherwise. Besides, as you just noticed, there are people out there, who were helped by the same approach that harmed you.
I just get confused by your posts sometimes because some of them contradict each other. Below are two contradictory quotes:
“I’m “agnostic” on many subjects: the potential of therapy, can there ever be a power balance, OR can the power balance be minimized to not interfere with mentoring and problem solving. I can only speak from my experience.”
and
“I wonder if any therapist could ever help someone with my makeup, given that power always will be imbalanced.”
Those two statements oppose each other or so it seems to me. Also, it seems that there was a therapist in your life, who helped you despite your make up.
Also, thank you for the link to the book. From my experience of having been a member of mental health community I could say that therapists unfortunately often do NOT express indignation about being abused in training and I wish they did. When people don’t rebel against abuses, they tend to displace their anger on others, in therapy they direct it at their clients.
I cannot speak of how TELL operated a long time ago because I contacted them in May this year. In my correspondence with Jan Wohlberg, the founder of TELL, she clearly stated her beliefs on therapy. She doesn’t believe that there is anything wrong with therapy profession as a whole and that the problem is individual therapists, who commit ethical violation. I disagree with her on that and that is why I started participating in this discussion. She and I, however, did not have a chance to discuss what we are discussing here because we were focused on a specific issue of seduction in therapy. There was one person out of those 7 with whom I have been communicating so far, who expressed her views on therapists’ tendency to intensify transference that are similar to mine and yours, but I don’t think that she or anyone, who has experienced seduction in therapy is “agnostic” to the power imbalance issue. For those who suffered the harm that TELL members and I have suffered the assumption that power imbalance doesn’t always exists in therapy equates to assuming that they share responsibility for what happened to them with their perpetrators since the relationship was “equal”, and I doubt that anyone in TELL believes that they hold any responsibility for it and that applies to me as well.
May of us were harmed because our therapists-perpetrators acted as equals in our relationships with them, because they denied that they held a more powerful position in the relationship and we believed them. They became our friends, lovers, colleagues, parent figures, children, who needed our attention while on some level still remaining therapists, who were clumsily trying to attend to us in a therapeutic way, and clients to whom we attended. They claimed that they loved and cared about us and, in fact, in some ways what they did was experienced by us as love and care, and that is what makes this experience so complex and so difficult to those who have never been through it to understand. Victims of seduction in therapy were happy to become “equals” with their therapists only to realize later that the “equality” was only an illusion and that our vulnerabilities were exploited. Then we understood a very simple reality that clients are the ones who are more vulnerable in relationships with their therapists and that is what creates a power imbalance regardless of what therapists do or don’t do. Therapists could INCREASE the imbalance by intensifying transference, but they cannot CREATE imbalance. Imbalance is created by the therapy situation, when one person comes for help and that simple act of coming for help makes him/herself vulnerable to the other person’s influence. This puts the other person in a more powerful position by definition regardless of what they do. Therapist may or may not take advantage and exploit this vulnerability, and if they do exploit it, that by definition constitutes the abuse of power. This is just as simple. Now, I guess, I should say “in my view” or “from my experience” once again so I wouldn’t sound as if I am making universal claims. My experience with power imbalance, however, is similar to that of TELL members and many other people, who have not come “out of closet” yet, because they feel (and their feelings are reality based) that their trauma and abuse of them would be invalidated by many, because it is impossible for many people to understand how two adults, who have “consented” to be either friends or lovers or colleagues or all of the above, could not be equal.
Power imbalance in therapy is TELL’s fundamental concept that they believe and will continue to believe strongly, because to them denying it is equal to denying the reality of their abuse and the reality that their therapists were 100% responsible for it.
All of the above is not my intend to argue about power imbalance in therapy. When people aren’t willing to try to understand you, arguing makes no sense. I just wanted to clarify further what I have learned about TELL from my experience of dealing with them, because I hate when people get misinformed or mislead by the lack of information.
Please understand I’m simply someone with a bachelor’s degree who wrote an essay, would probably survive in graduate school 20 seconds and doesn’t consider my musings any consequence more than just that…batting around thoughts. I wrote the “disgruntled” piece in hopes it might comfort those who shared parallel experiences and challenge clinicians to see their practice more through a recipient viewpoint.
OK, on power, let me see if I can refine a few musings. I agree, the therapy’s foundations are unequal, as you said, one person making him or herself vulnerable to another person’s influence. Worse yet, the entire enterprise built up from based on its founders’ whimsical, intuitive, often arrogant ideas, and ripe with hazards for abuse. Additionally, even much of the profession will admit its tangents have run from simply ridiculous to quite harmful. Not a pretty picture.
There are examples everywhere of harm that comes between “adults.” I’ll assume the barrier to absorbing this is the benign image and expectation of therapy and maybe society’s want/or need for sages..
I’m agnostic in that I can’t visit consulting rooms throughout the world nor ever fully know what goes on with people if I could. I observed some “imbalanced” relationships, be it teacher student, parent-child, employee-employer, where the affect of that imbalance appears less prevalent, creating a stronger, more less constrained participation by the “weaker” party. I’ll assume in the therapy universe, this has occurred and someone somewhere out there received authentic, life-changing help.
Disequilibrium1, thank you for clarifying your thoughts further. First, I dare to assume that you would survive more than 20 seconds in a grad school, and I am not saying this because I am trying to flatter you or anything like that. I am not someone who gives compliments, but I am not afraid to acknowledge someone’s intelligence or perceptive abilities if I see them, and I certainly see those abilities in you as they are expressed in your essays.
I assume that what we are discussing here pushes everyone’s painful spots. It would be also fair to assume that everyone, who participates in this discussion was either traumatized in therapy or mistreated by their therapists in some way up to some extend, some more than others, some could say that it wasn’t really a mistreatment but just ineffective therapy, some would acknowledge that their therapists hurt them unintentionally, but that didn’t make the hurt any less painful, some would recall that their therapists were intentionally sadistic etc. Every case is unique and yet we could still find similarities here and there in terms of what happened externally and in terms of how people processed it internally, what they made out of their experiences, what kind of lessons they learned and what kind of belief systems they constructed as a result of processing what happened to them. This duality-the similarities and the overlaps of many people’s individual experiences on the one hand and the uniqueness of each experience on the other hand- makes the subject of this discussion enormously complex, and our personal wounds and pain make it a “hot topic” that is not easy to discuss. Once we touch the spot that is still raw and hurts, our whole body screams “ouch!”, all objectivity and contemplative mood goes out the window, we fly off the handle thus hurting the other person and ourselves further, and then it just keeps escalating and escalating until nobody understands any more what they are talking about.
I agree that there is no way for any of us to know what goes on in every consulting room in the world, and, yes, I guess, it is fair to assume that there might be cases somewhere, when the power imbalance is minimized to the point that the client doesn’t feel overwhelmingly dependent on the therapist and doesn’t have much difficulty leaving therapy and ending the relationship with the therapist after they received what they needed from this person at that particular time. In fact, I hope that those cases do exist, and, for myself, I am trying to figure out how therapy could be conducted in the way that would minimize the client’s dependency on the therapist and maximize the effectiveness of therapy. I am doing it not only because I was hurt as a consumer (client) but also for a selfish reason as a provider. If therapy was conducted with the idea to minimize client’s dependency, it would make it much easier on therapist as well, as in this case therapist would not be held overwhelmingly responsible for therapy outcome.
I also think that it is important to separate the part of the power imbalance (not “imbalance”) that is created by the reality of therapy (one person is in a more vulnerable position no matter what the other one does), and the other part that is artificially created by therapist through the misuse of theories, or theories themselves, or therapist’s own personal issues with power and control or all of the above. I think when therapists start an open and honest discussion about the validity of certain theories and how they use or misuse them and about the effectiveness of current therapy training, this will minimize the part of the power imbalance in therapy that is artificially created by therapists, and so the total imbalance and the potential harm to clients will be minimized. The other part of imbalance that is naturally created by the situation cannot be minimized as it does not depend on what therapist does or doesn’t do, so that is just something for both, therapists and clients, to accept, be mindful of and make individual decisions on how they want to deal with it.
Marina, Thanks for your kind words.
I agree with your observations that we’re discussing hot spots. Furthermore, likely we’re redefining experiences that someone else –a person in power–inaccurately described for us, now grasping for our own truths. There will be parallels and diversions, and I think one person’s “handle” won’t negate another. And we’ll each have our own paths for recovery, some perhaps venturing back to therapy, others staying far away.
I really like your point about minimizing potential affects of the power imbalance. I have seen some discussion about “informed consent,” but going back to my naive mindset, I don’t know how I could have understood the collision course enough to consent. However, it would have been nice for someone to start with much more undersell i.e. “It’s your life; I’ll never understand much of it; I certainly can’t tell you how to run it; I can’t magically transform you into the prom queen, and I won’t solve your problems. However there are some tools therapy might provide you…”
There are so many other assumptions and methods I consider open for question, but power, the very way the therapist and consumer relate, well could top the list. (Maybe second is therapy’s pseudo world.)
The therapy industry is so entrenched, it clearly isn’t going anywhere. At best I hope for throwing out truthful questions, to encourage therapists to get real feedback (not wishful thinking) whether they’re changing lives, and courageously to take responsibility for failures.
God, I just typed a nice essay and lost all of it because my computer decided to shut down by itself for some reason!! ..Whatever happens is for the best (old Russion proverb)..so may be I’ll say it better this time..
Disequilibrium 1, you grasped the essence of what, I believe, therapy should be based on, when you said you wished that therapists would be able to start the work by saying:
“It’s your life; I’ll never understand much of it; I certainly can’t tell you how to run it; I can’t magically transform you into the prom queen, and I won’t solve your problems. However there are some tools therapy might provide you…”
You may not believe it, but what you said was the main theme of my training in graduate school! We were taught by our instructors that we don’t have the ability to fully understand another human being and, therefore, should suspend our judgments, and that we also don’t have magic solutions for anyone. This, however, was taught in theory. In practice, though, we were pressured to solve, understand, diagnose, “treat” …do something to make people “normal” (according to our standards), adjusted, functional, “acceptable” members of the insane society..
Having been around mental health professionals for the past 10 years, I had a chance to see their human vulnerabilities and human limitations that, unfortunately, they could not accept. If they could accept their humanity and all the limitations that it imposes on them, they would be able to accept their clients’ need to find their own unique ways of living, healing and growing instead of measuring everyone with one yardstick. Many of them don’t do harm intentionally. They are ignorant of how their words or actions affect clients because they are too anxious and too busy to prove to themselves that they are doing a “good job”, because they take on responsibility of making people’s lives better which is not their responsibility at all. They are trying to do the impossible and then get frustrated with themselves and their clients when they don’t see the results they want to see..They struggle with same things every human being struggles: insecurity, the need to know that they are doing something meaningful, that they are worthy of something, the fear of failure, the fear of being judged..all stuff that comes from ego and vulnerability that each one of us has..I have compassion for human limitations as long as people can honestly admit that they have them and accept them. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case..
If any of my colleagues or supervisors saw this blog and saw me participating in this discussion, they would call me a traitor because I am exposing their humanity here, but I don’t care. As much as I am angry about their denial of realities of life and how much therapy can help, I don’t see them as monsters, just as not so strong human beings who, unfortunately, don’t have the courage to face these realities.
By the way, you can take a look at the famous Gloria tape where Rogers demonstrates his method with his client Gloria. His approach to therapy so far has been the closest one to what you wish therapists would do. Here is the link
I believe this doesn’t show the whole session but you can watch the next video to see the whole thing.
Marina, drats about your essay and thanks for reconstituting it.
Wow, something really changes in the indoctrination to transform trainees from inquiring mortals to mountaintop oracles. I learned more from looking at professional literature than anything else. It was so objectifying and polarizing I thought I was spying behind enemy lines doing this reading as a…er…”patient.” Starting with the fact I always functioned and was never a patient. I agree with you completely that therapists are trying to do the impossible.
And worse yet is the corollary, the patient/client/consumer by necessity must diminish in rank, intellect and validity to accommodate the therapist’s overinflated stature.
I could rant on about the complexity of life, the uncertainty of many decisions and values, and the absurdity of therapists’ impositions, but I suspect everyone here knows that already.
I feel I would have been helped had I had a session like Roger’s. Both he and Gloria were honest and respectful. I also liked the honesty and humanness of Rogers reflecting on his journey after the session. Rogers impressed me as asking Gloria if he was correct rather than imposing an interpretation on her. So there was a humbleness and give and take and the “answers” were presumed as Gloria’s domain.
In true nautilus fashion, Gloria herself was struggling with the idea that she wasn’t able to be the perfect parent and live up to her “nice lady” image. (Something I appreciate, remembering the 1950s Mom image.) That’s exactly the issue with most therapy.
Marina, re your Oct. 6 post: I don’t see how the assumption that power imbalance doesn’t always exist in therapy equates to assuming that those who have suffered the harm that you and TELL members have suffered share responsibility for what happened with them. If a therapist seduces a client, then that is prima facie evidence that there was indeed a power imbalance in the therapist/client relationship in that case. In those rare cases in which the power imbalance is not present, the seduction would not occur – the client would both be aware of what the therapist was doing and be able to stop or deflect it before it caused harm – or even make it clear to the therapist that it would be a silly thing to try. A therapist’s seducing a client is grossly unprofessional and unethical; the client does not share any responsibility for the therapist’s behavior.
When I wrote parenthetically that there is not always imbalance in the client/therapist relationship, I was thinking of one specific example; I later thought of another. Here they are, in case this will help you understand what I was thinking about: The first case was someone whose posts I read in an online discussion of therapy. Other therapy clients were talking about problems they had had with therapists. This person commented (in a way that did not appear at all condescending or blaming) that what she found helpful about therapy was just having someone to talk to about what was bothering her. She mentioned that some therapists she had tried had done some really weird things – but they still listened enough to be helpful, and she could easily ignore the extraneous stuff. The second case was someone I knew who said she used therapists because they could help her look at something a different way. She was very aware of possible power issues in therapy, and did deliberate things to prevent or diffuse them – such as sitting in the therapist’s chair so that the therapist had to take what was normally a client seat. Neither of these people seemed to have any sense of dependence on the therapist; they were there for help of a specific type and did not see the therapist as being in charge. But I do think such people are the exception rather than the rule.
Disequilibrium1, I love the same thing about Gloria tape as you do: mutual respectfulness, humbleness and the attitude of open inquiry. Keep in mind though that Gloria was not a typical statistically averaged client, she was much more developed and sophisticated than the majority of people that come to therapy. Roger’s style worked for her because she was not expecting him to give her solutions to her problems but was willing to gradually go deeper and deeper within herself to understand her inner struggles. He only facilitated her self-understanding but did not impose his own understanding of her on her. Also, notice, that she tried a few times to get him give her solutions and he refused to do it. He gently but firmly put the responsibility of finding solutions to her problems back on her whenever she tried to put it on him and she accepted it. Many clients, however, don’t accept Rogerian style. They come to you expecting that you would give them magical tools because they believe that this is your job and this is what they are paying for and get angry when you try to do what Rogers did. They don’t know and don’t want to know the value of self-reflection and self-introspection. They want to be “fixed” as if they were just a car and you were a mechanic. The majority of patients/clients/consumers are nothing like Gloria!:) So, this didactic video shows an ideal therapy session that rarely happens in reality not only because the majority of therapists are not like Rogers but also because the majority of clients are not like Gloria.
Mary S., I am afraid I won’t be able to give you further explanations on power imbalance in therapy, as this topic touches most painful spots in me and when my wounds are touched I am in no way articulate enough to answer questions like yours. I fear that my explanations would increase misunderstanding rather than clear it. You might want to contact TELL about it. There are many intelligent people there, who have learned hard way what power imbalance is in therapy. They might be able to answer your question because their abuses had taken place many years ago, they had time to heal unlike me and aren’t as vulnerable in regards to this subject as I am, so they are in a much better place to answer your question.
Marina, I did see what the transactions you mentioned with the Gloria video. She was so insightful, I half wondered if she was scripted, though Rogers talked about her like she wasn’t.
Based on my experiences and human nature, I’m sure you’re right about most clients expecting magic. I might “blame” some of this on how therapists present their profession in the media– many therapists’ websites even have this implication or outright claims–but also how we’re raised in this society.
However, I feel it’s very important for the therapist to dismantle this expectation of magic rather than take on the wizard’s role. In fact, I think this disillusioning might be the most important thing therapy might actually accomplish. The way we’re raised and taught conditions us toward obedience to even the most foolish authorities, and an important part of maturation is owning our own decisions when to follow and when to question. A difficult challenge for therapists, and I assume they need many tools to avoid the trap of accommodating this guru expectation.
My harm/abuse happened decades ago and I’ve gone through quite an evolution. Initially was raw hurt, helplessness of “trying to be heard,” guilt that I’d flunked therapy and therefore didn’t want to better myself, a conflicts about “disobedience” and doubts about my own sanity. I’ve evolved through the years to under at the therapist’s fear and needs, to thinking I was duped, and now, feeling the episode was more than one therapist–it was their system.
Marina, I appreciate your 10-6 discussion “May of us were harmed because our therapists-perpetrators acted as equals in our relationships with them, because they denied that they held a more powerful position in the relationship and we believed them.”
My personal experience wasn’t seduction, but I’ve read how this plays out, the client can be led toward the notion she is the therapist’s special chosen one.
My therapist did invite me to social events, tried match-making and encouraged me to join a small in-home congregation to which she belonged. I did “feel” like an equal, but indeed was not. I’m unclear if these conflicts were smashingly harmful (they violated ethics at the time) but were at minimal misleading me the therapist was my equal.
I know at least two people who had an erotic, though unconsummated relationships with therapists they felt their doctors provoked and nurtured. Both found this extremely harmful.
Disequilibrium1, thank you for acknowledging and validating the emotional injury that was done to me. You can’t imagine how difficult it is to find those who could understand, whether they are therapists or lay people. My trauma was so recent that I assume I will be going through the motions of anguish, guilt, shame, pain of betrayal, fear of exposing my wounds to others because I may be invalidated and thus re-traumatized..It’s been only six months since the relationship with my therapist-perpetrator ended..so this is still very raw.
You mentioned the isolation that victims of therapy abuse/harm experience. It was clearly your case as well as mine and many others, who are still afraid to come out and talk about what happened to them for the fear of being misunderstood at best and judged at worst. I believe, this isolation (or self-isolation) is the main source of suffering and the main challenge that we encounter while trying not only to cope with our traumas and to continue to function but to make something meaningful out of our experiences such as informing others about what could happen in therapy and trying to change the current state of affairs in therapy industry.
You are absolutely correct that this is a much larger cultural issue that has to do with blind obedience and compliance with authorities. Power is not necessarily destructive by itself, as I suppose that the society needs to have a hierarchical structure in order to function, but power can only be used constructively if its purpose is to serve others rather than to be self-serving. Absolute or unquestionable authority for me is a dangerous non-sense. I think, there might be special situations when authority and expertise has to be unquestionable. I doubt that I would question the actions of airplane pilot while I am on the plane that he is flying:) In that case I would blindly trust his expertise:) but those cases are an entirely different story and they are just a matter of common sense.
I think I mentioned in one of my previous posts the book by Merilyn Peterson “At personal risk”, where she explores the subject of authority and obedience in American culture in a very specific context of boundary violations in professional relationships with therapists, lawyers, medical doctors, clergies etc. This book is the most comprehensive review of the subject I have ever read in terms of its depth and broadness.
Disequilibrium1, I was struck by what you said about how one of your therapists violated professional boundary with you. From your previous descriptions I got an impression that you were harmed in therapy through the bullying, manipulations and crazy making techniques. Apparently, there was also seduction on top of it. My definition of seduction is that it does not have to be erotic. I think seduction occurs whenever the therapist makes you feel “chosen” and special to him/her. I assume that many of us have a long history of mistreatment starting with childhood, and when someone shows kindness and gives us attention we always wanted and never had, it’s like a dream come true! ..Especially when this attention comes from a therapist who is perceived on some level as a surrogate parent figure..Our deepest dreams and hopes that we nurtured from childhood get exploited and manipulated. This, for me, is the worst betrayal ever.
Marina, I’m sorry you lived through this, and thank you for feedback. Unsure if sure my experience is parallel, but I certainly was “sold” a bill of goods which I dove in whole-heartedly.I unsure that “specialness” applied in my instance, save joining the therapist’s congregation, but I promise you, had I been offered it, I would have bought it for reasons you describe.
I’ve had an unfortunate brush with elder abuse and had the privilege/misfortune of seeing con artists in action. They were brilliant figuring out the other person’s needed role, and filling it. Too much like therapy.
My reading about therapeutic seduction, consummated or otherwise, talks about that “chosen” phenomenon. Jan W. recommended Susan Penfold’s book about sexual abuse, telling me the sex wasn’t the most harmful part–it was everything that led to it. http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Abuse-Health-Professionals-Personal/dp/0802081061/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318114327&sr=8-1
I was perversely comforted by Ellen Plasil’s book Therapist,
more of a cult experience really, It was control, sexual and economic exploitation so bad, it made my situation look minor.
I was quite vulnerable to authority before therapy, so utterly shaken and raw after I exited. I had no perspective at all, only guilt, nor any real support. I did take comfort from the Petersen book. On re-read years later, I was bothered by what impressed me as Petersen’s idealism. If I remember correctly, she saw it as a goal for clients to jump back to therapy and trust authority again. This book was written in another time, I wonder if she still feels that way. (Or I read this into it.) But I appreciated her as one of the few takes on the subject. And she does talk wisely as our pre-conditioning to obey authority.
I agree with your take on hierarchy. I assume all or most animals have it as well, and its deep in our conditioning and wiring. Reflexive “rebellion” doesn’t work either, because sometimes compliance is the expedient response. It’s always about choices.
Aftermath: my perspective keeps shifting. But maybe, perversely again, I wager I benefited more from damaging therapy than consumers who merely were reassured and soothed. I’ve had to do much thinking, about my needs, my relationship to authority, about being seduced. I’ve also had to forgive myself for being so fooled. The process has been in waves.
Disequilibrium1, I guess, I did not communicate accurately what I wanted to say. I didn’t mean to suggest that our experiences parallel. I see from your descriptions that in some areas they overlap, in others they are distinctly different, but what seems strikingly similar to me is the ways in which you and I have been processing them. Just like you, I could thank those who harmed me for giving me an opportunity to do much thinking, reflecting and accumulating wisdom from my experiences, even though I wish I could learn same lessons some other way. Just like you, I can describe myself as a middle-aged woman who has come to understand hard way what is truly valuable in this life and what isn’t, who is not willing to spend her precious life energy and the remaining time on this earth on bullsh..t and who can see not only through con-artists but through anyone who is not honest. Just like yours, my process has been in waves, and I think those waves are just a reflection of life as it really is-always fluid and changing. So our experiences might have been different but our ways of learning from them and integrating them in order to heal and grow sound similar.
As far as experiences with authorities, I suspect that our different cultural backgrounds play role here. Authorities in Russia acted differently from authorities here. Their commands and directives were more emotionally rather than religiously or moralistically driven. As you probably know, Soviet Union didn’t have any official religion. We were raised atheists and morality was taught according to cultural traditions, not any religion, whereas here morality is religion based. So, when authorities act from emotions rather than principles, they allow you to disobey them every once in a while, when they are in a good mood:) That is why, as a nation, we are awfully unstructured and disorganized:)
It’s interesting that my therapist-perpetrator felt about authorities the way you do. Please, don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to compare you with him in any way! But the main reason why he tried to behave as “equal” in relationships with his clients was because he had extreme intolerance to anyone who presented him/herself as an expert or an authority and, therefore, he idealized his relationship with his own therapist, who also acted as his “equal” and who seduced and exploited him. He always denied that his therapist abused him, on a contrary, he felt that the guy saved his life, which very well might have been the case. Helping someone and abusing them are not necessarily mutually exclusive actions. My therapist both helped me and abused me, and I am still trying to figure out which part of my experience was bigger: the help or the abuse. This is where the whole struggle is: the curse and the blessing go hand in hand, they perfectly co-exist and that is why this experience is so difficult for others to understand. It is paradoxical just as life itself: the curse carries the blessing in it and the blessing carries the curse..
Marina, it does sound like we’re both experiencing a process, though our experiences were dissimilar. It’s absolutely possible for someone to both help and hurt us, making it very difficult to sort out the emotions from the experience. The therapist who cooed over me comforted me at the time, but conveyed her expectations that my life miraculously would change for being in her care–it didn’t. My analyst had some very wise watchwords–the analysis process only made me self-involved and self-pitying.
I’m also middle-aged, and very thankful for what life has taught me over the years. I’m much calmer, less eager-to-please, more discerning. With the exception of some meditation technique, I doubt much of this could have been taught in therapy.
Interesting what you say about absence of religion. As you’ve probably observed, religion can serve to control and create guilt–for both good and bad effect.
I believe the curse and blessing can exist side-by-side, particularly in relationships. That’s what makes it so difficult.
Article about Raubalt’s Power Games book:
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_powergames.htm
Accessible journal article on iatrogenesis: I’m sure many of us could add to his list!
http://www.arabpsynet.com/Archives/OP/apnJ9NumenGraiba.pdf
Thanks for posting the review of Power Games. Interesting – but sounds like it probably captures most of the book, so I’ll use it as a substitute for reading the book. One thing I particularly appreciate in it is the quote from Paula Fuqua, “In the end, the supervisor’s authority and expertise [are] a double-edged sword. [We] have the potential to foster growth or create pain, harm, and havoc, and we don’t always know which will result.” Her awareness and honesty are refreshing. The therapy professions really need to pay more attention to how to decrease the chances of harm and havoc.
Also thanks for the link to the journal article on iatrogenic therapy. Lilienfeld’s article is more comprehensive in types and causes of iatrogenic therapy than this one, but Ghraiba’s distinction between “adverse effect” (temporary negative effects of therapy, like side effects of drugs) and “iatrogenisis” (chronic or permanent disorders caused by treatment) is a good point. Also, it’s good to see the subject being brought up in a variety of settings.
Another article on iatrogenic therapy that I recently read is “The elephant on the couch: Side-effects of psychotherapy”, by Michael Berk and Gordon Parker, Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 43(9), Sep 2009, 787-794. The authors point out that patients and practitioners alike typically are concerned about possible adverse effects in drug therapy, but rarely express concern about possible adverse effects in psychotherapy. (The authors don’t make the distinction between adverse effect and iatrogenesis made in the preceding article, but use “adverse effect” to encompass both.) They argue that “there is a need for greater awareness and appropriate monitoring of risks” (p. 793) in psychotherapy. I agree!!
Still another article: Christian Jarrett, When therapy causes harm, The Psychologist Vol. 21, 2008, pp. 10 – 12, available online at http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/archive/archive_home.cfm?volumeID=21&editionID=155&ArticleID=1290. It includes discussion of Lilienfeld’s article, criticisms of it, and Lambert’s work.
Mary, thanks for the link. I wish I could access the Berk/Parker article at a reasonable price. What tugs at me in Power Games is the therapists’ frankness in addressing instances when THEY were mistreated in training. I wish this same passion and analysis existed discussing these same games with consumers.
When I read these other scholarly pieces on iatrogenesis an think back to my own experiences, I merely shake my head. The “feedback” Lambert suggests, had it been accepted seriously, might have interrupted my worst therapy. However, I gave verbal feedback numerous times, and the therapists disregarded it. In his response to my grievance, the therapist reported a completely fictional account of my “progress” as he perceived it.
My subtly harmful therapy seemed initially had me enthusiastic, and I would have given glowing feedback at the time. It’s only in retrospect can I see how misdirected that therapy was. I was an agreeable, compliant client, which, turned out the be much of the problem.
“Outcome” impresses me as so abstract to evaluate. I think the bottom line of therapy should be how someone lives life. I don’t see how that can be evaluated really.
I believe many of these scholarly articles are so in therapy-think that they overlook common wisdom. The pitfalls the mentor-protege relationships, power games, bullying, egos, invalidation, and retaining tactics are among the many ever-present dangers in the therapy.
Disequilibrium1, I also have somewhat skeptical outlook on scholarly articles, especially their “outcome” measurements. They remind me of the time when I was working for the agency contracted with the Department of Mental Health. In order to receive funding they, of course, had to comply with DMH “standards of care”. DMH required to document therapy “progress” in quantitative measurements such as “reduction of crying spells from 10 to 7 times a week”:)) and some other non-sense like that. That’s why when I hear about someone trying to measure therapy “outcome”, I want to say to them: “Are you going to count the number of tears one sheds or the number of times one smiles per day or per week to define their “progress”?
On the other hand, I also don’t think that there is such thing as “common wisdom”. I believe everyone develops their own wisdom as they grow over the life time. “Common sense” is also too abstract idea to rely on at all times. Who’s common sense? Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that we continuously have to strive to discover bits and pieces of “common common sense” that could also be defined as “objective reality”, but I also believe that we have to be mindful of our limitations of how much of this reality we could see.
There are certain realities that we all can agree on such as if we hold the hand over a flame long enough, it’ll hurt and if we continue to hold it, it’ll burn or other facts that are obvious to everyone. Everything that goes outside of what is obvious to everyone becomes subjective.
Those therapists that you and I and others see as bullies or abusers or in other ways harmful have their own “common sense” or “common wisdom” that they rely on that is different from yours or mine. They would give you their own logic in response to your and my logic, and we would argue until the proverbial cows come home about who’s logic is more logical and it wouldn’t take anyone anywhere..
Marina, I smiled when you talked about measuring outcome. Maybe a picture might emerge if the client was followed around by camera crews….but even that would produce disagreement about whether a life has improved. There are so many factors, choices, traits, variables in any life, I’m unclear how “progress” can be measured. I personally think I moved my life more forward when I was better able to replace self-analysis with doing and going toward goals.
I ‘ll agree that a consensus “common sense” would be as evasive as as “scientific one, and the more I think about it, the more I go around in circles. The literature I’ve read gives me the strong impression of a pseudo world, where actions and interaction now are filtered through skewed interpretations. There even seems a struggle to describe what we’d call “a constructive relationship” in real life. Everything seems so convoluted.
My therapists used “professional” justifications for being bullies. What they considered interpreting and countering resistance, I would call acting like a domineering, arrogant jerks. It’s a street interpretation vs. what they read in textbooks. I think therapists have a responsibility to be respectful, non-controlling, non-manipulative human beings first, and this should not get pushed aside in the service of therapy.
But yeah, all of us have our concepts of this.
A new film about Sabina Spielrein, the first patient of Jung, who was abused by him, is coming out. Here is the link to the trailer
There is also a documentary about her and her relationship with Jung called “My name was Sabina Spielrein” available on Amazon.
Wow, that looks powerful, and I do hope it starts conversations. I quickly perused a book titled Unauthorized Freud: Doubters Confront a Legend, a scathing anthology criticizing Freud. Among the accusations–Freud never actually cured anyone. I’ll eagerly await this film.
This film is not about Freud, it’s about Jung abusing his patient, and not just one patient. He abused many. He was much worse than Freud in this regard.
I wasn’t clear. I only made that leap because this appears to be discrediting one of the “titans.” Looks like Freud will be in this story. Wonder how he’ll be treated.
Freud will be in this story for sure, but this “titan” is not the main focus of the story. Main characters are Jung and Spielrein. Freud played a disgusting role in this story. He completely supported Jung and invalidated the abuse..that figures. I don’t know how this woman survived at that time. Not only she survived but thrived as a professional. She was also an analyst and she opened her own clinic for children in Moscow. In 1942 she was killed by the Nazis with her two daughters.
I just hope that they don’t portray this relationship as something romantic and beautiful because that would infuriate me and all other survivors of “professional incest”.
There are a handful of reviews already. Anytime I hear about any story of the abuse of a charismatic figure, guru, huckster, therapist, I get angry and my wheels start spinning.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a_dangerous_method/
Same reactions here, especially when I was a victim of it myself and especially because I am personally connected to the characters of this story. My therapist-perpetrator is the third generation of Jung’s followers, who never questioned the behavior of their “guru”. On a contrary, they saw his behavior as a tacit permission for them to do the same and they did! My perpetrator’s analyst was abused by his analyst, who in turn was abused by his analyst, and that guy was abused by Carl Mayer, a former patient and, later, a collaborator of Jung, also a victim of Jung’s abuse. The most amazing thing is that all his victims except Spielrein worshiped and idolized him. She was the only one, who was able to stand her ground and confront him, even though, given the time that she lived in and the general level of awareness, she was not able to see the true extend of this exploitation.
The problem is that this particular kind of abuse is very difficult to recognize as there is a part of this experience that feels very good to the victim. After all, she is in love and transference love in therapy is more intense than in any other relationship, and she feels that she is loved back only to realize later that she was used and that the person, who became the central figure of her life, is just a selfish narcissist and never really cared about her.
An abusive therapy relation gets a boost from the therapist’s credentials appearing to legitimize the behavior. So, to pick an absurd scenario, the therapist could tell the client to get on the floor and jump like a frog–this will be healing–and the client might her judgment in the face of the “authority.” It’s extremely sad.
Additionally, the client often thinks she “needs” the therapist’s expertise to change her life and relieve her pain. As I mentioned in my essay, it’s a rigged power game.
It’s taken me decades to realize that all my therapy was a scam in my experience.
According to what you’ve told, yes, your therapy experience sounds like a total scam. What disturbed me most in your story is that you were abused by the whole team of therapists just because you decided to leave. This NEVER happened in any of my therapy with any therapist, no matter how they exploited me in different ways. This is something that I, thank God, never had to deal with.
My experience and this of others, who were seduced in therapy, is different though. I never got a boost from my therapist’s credentials and never felt that I needed his expertise. I was totally acting out my childish idealistic desire to be loved by an older man, obviously a father figure, and he totally exploited this natural instinctual desire by acting lovingly, by creating intimacy and stirring up the erotic energy instead of helping me work on my stuff that I brought to therapy. This experience causes the same damage as incest, that is why it is called “professional incest” in legal terminology. What makes it more evil, at least in some cases like mine, is that a part of this experience is REALLY healing. Those sick jerks, perpetrators, often have a high level of psychological sophistication, intuition, deep vision, perceptiveness. They are able to see your inner beauty and to reflect it so you could see it. It is so important for us to feel seen and heard that once someone does it, especially in a professional setting, you are hooked. It validates you and gives you confidence at first, but later it becomes a drug that you have to keep taking in order to feel your human value. Then, when you realize that someone who brought you back to life is simply using you to fulfill his own needs, it is devastating. Even in equal relationships it’s traumatic, but in a power-differentiated relationship, where you are the vulnerable party and the therapist is the powerful party, an ideal parent-image, it is crashing. There is no betrayal worse than this one.
I’ve heard at least one other story similar to yours. I’ve been through a few rounds of that in equal relationships, but yes, the inequality does make it extremely devastating. And yes, it’s never 100 percent destructive or we wouldn’t have gotten involved and stayed to begin with.
I’m Sorry you had to go through such pain. It’s a complicated sequence that draws together so many of our needs and currents.
I felt the more “benign” therapy damaging in different ways–encouraging me to feel like a victim, magical thinking, and subordinating myself to “authority.” It was opposite what I needed to do, and simply “living life” has been much more transforming.
I’ve been reading about guru/hucksters recently, Tragedy in Sedona about a self-help guru and people who died while taking one of his seminars and Sham: How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless by Steve Salerno. The latter book eventually wanders into some pretty stretched conclusions, in my opinion, but still is an interesting expose of the transformation “industry.”
Before anyone admonishes me these self-help types usually aren’t licensed professionals, these accounts parallel how I EXPERIENCED licensed professionals.
“A Dangerous Method” was directed by David Cronenberg, so you just know it’s going to be totally freaking weird. And the material is pretty freaky to begin with! But I have my doubts about how historically accurate it will be.
I’m curious about “Martha Marcy May Marlene” (or whatever it’s called), since it involves a young woman’s post-cult recovery. Bad therapy can easily get into cult-ish territory. Anyone seen this one?
No, therapyisacon, I haven’t seen “Martha Marcy May Marlene”, but I just looked at the trailer on youtube..Looks interesting.
As far as “A dangerous method”, that is my fear too. I am afraid that they might have romanticized the whole thing or just simply made it a fascinating “love story”, when the only “fascinating” thing about it, in my view, is Jung’s outrageous narcissism or, in a plain language, selfishness. I happened to have learned a great deal about Sabina, Jung, their relationship, the way he treated his other patients and how he was behaving with his wife Emma and his children, about everything related to this case. It is more than just a history, it’s very personal to me for the reasons I described in my previous post and also because I understand Sabina culturally since she was Russian too. So, I believe that I have a fairly accurate idea of what took place, but the trailer gave me an impression that they were not concerned about historical accuracy. The main thing I didn’t like is their choice of the actress. Keira Knightly, in my opinion, is just as close to who Sabina was as I am close to a giraffe. The way she plays Sabina portrays a sexually aggressive woman and that’s it, and this is so far from who she really was. At least this is what I see in the trailer. From the trailer you can’t see her sharp intellect, her psychological sophistication, her insight, her incredible sensitivity and vulnerability, her deep perceptive ability and unique visions that drew Jung to her in the first place. After all, this woman became a brilliant analyst for God’s sake! She established a clinic for children in Moscow, wrote a book and about 30 articles. Most of all, for the rest of her life, she was trying to persuade those two arrogant egomaniacs, Jung and Freud, to stop acting like children and to start collaborating with each other. She was corresponding with both of them after they split trying to bring them back together, because she understood that their split was hurting the whole field, but their personal egos were more important to them.
Also, I didn’t like how they showed Jung’s wife Emma in the trailer. She makes an impression of a little housewife desperately holding on to Jung because she is threatened by his relationship with Sabina. Firstly, Emma was an incredibly strong woman and also a bright psychoanalyst herself. She did put a big value on her marriage, but her motives were more complex than what the trailer shows. She wanted to establish herself as an analyst, and, living at the time when women were a second class and were not taken seriously, the only way for her to do that was through staying married to Jung. Also, in Swiss culture, the public image of an intact family is more important than what actually goes on in the family, and she was trying to preserve that image at any cost especially when the children were involved. Sabina was not a threat to her. Jung never had any intention of leaving her for Sabina, and if that’s what they are showing in the film, it is simply not true. Later, she faced this threat when Toni Wolff, the other Jung’s patient, came into his life. For that woman Jung was willing to end his marriage, and he made it clear to Emma that if she did not accept Toni as a part of his life, he would leave her. Sadly, she accepted.
Please report back once you have a chance to see the film. The early reviews, I assume based on the film festival screening, seem to imply the film had its share of Hollywood titillation, ahem,but also the potential to create some discussion.
Anything that depicts cults or self-actualization hucksters also provokes my thoughts about therapy. When cable TV ran those Jonestown anniversary shows, my head was spinning.
Frontline ran something years ago called My Doctor, My Lover. I believe it’s available for viewing at the Museum of Television and Radio as well as some libraries.
http://www.worldcat.org/title/my-doctor-my-lover/oclc/26115640
My recent reading was the book Sham: How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless by Steve Salerno, a scathing expose some of the most visible self-improvement gurus and the hucksters they are. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it, but I’m still glad it’s there, and is drawing comments on Amazon. I liked the first part of the book, which talks specifically about the enterprises. However the latter half of the books free- floats into a rant of societal ills, blaming the self-help movement for much of it. I found that discussion too dispersed and unsubstantiated to be taken seriously, though I tended to agree with parts of it.
As imperfect as the book was, it gave me thoughts to chew –how salesmen in our society prey on our needs and self-doubts and our instinctive search for someone to bring us into the light. And while I won’t blame our self-help/therapized culture for ALL our problems, I do think it has contributed to a widely used vocabulary and categorizing that isn’t necessarily helpful. I think the book opens a good discussion.
Hi, I am questioning whether therapy is effective, at least for me. I was in therapy for seven years and realized just last year that my therapist was using me. He infantilized me, used me for his own sexual gratification and made me feel worse than when I’d started therapy. The ONLY thing that has helped me to feel better is to talk to others who have gone through the same thing in therapy. For this reason I have started an online group for survivors who were used, abused, or exploited by their therapists. The link is: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/professional_exploitation/
Thanks for starting this blog. It’s been an interesting read and makes me feel like I’m not so alone with all of the the quesitons I ahve.
pennsylvaniaflutist, you have my deepest sympathy and indignation at what happened to you. Shame on that therapist and the community that supported him!
Hi, I just clicked through to your group–thanks for starting it. I believe the client is the only authority about what is effective in our lives. Like you, I felt infantlized (minus the erotic component) and was helped through reading and comparing notes with others who had gone through it. I have found a silver lining in ditching my gurus, albeit a painful,hard-earned one. In additions to books and resources mentioned in our discussions, here are links with more discussions and possible places to mention your Yahoo group.
Here are some links:
http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/warning-signs-of-bad-therapy/
(This moderators usually “ban” posting direct links but will take descriptions, ie. Yahoo group called,… to enable people to find you.)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/116809651663411/
http://www.therapyabuse.org/
http://www.advocateweb.org/
Thanks so much! I will look into these links and see what I can do to promote the group. Amy
“A Dangerous Method” won’t come out for another couple of weeks, but I’ll probably see it the first weekend, and then will report back. I will have to keep in mind that it is for a mainstream audience who likely knows very little about either Freud or Jung, never mind Spielrein. Also that Cronenburg is probably using the bare bones of the real situation to explore some issues or themes that interest him personally. I.e. it’s not a history lesson or critical work, so I can’t hold it to those standards. However, I find it interesting to consider how pop culture influences our ideas of mental health and therapy, so the film should be interesting from that perspective. But I have a feeling one of the major “takeaways” for many people will be that childhood trauma leads to adult kinkiness that is only harmful if you suppress it, and anyone who doesn’t have weird kinks isn’t being honest with themselves. So, no acknowledged kinks = THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU.
I boil when I think about pop culture’s depiction of the mental health industry. While I believe our histories definitely shape our personalities, I disagree with the popular notion of the instant cure–that if we can only recall that horrible moment when we were in third grade, we’ll forever be freed from influence.
I suspect much in that film is going to get me angry, both in what the story will provoke, and what the filmmaker says about mental health.
Oh jeez, yes, that horrible suppressed memory from third grade that explains it ALL. It’s so stupid. Why is it never the clear-as-day memory from a couple years ago?
I’m looking forward to the juicy discussion we can have about the movie in a few weeks!
And once I’ve discuss these memories, be it from third grade or a couple of years ago, it doesn’t “liberate” me in the slightest. All the discussion only trains me in depression and self-indulgence.
It’s coping with life and accomplishing things, not obsessing in the consulting room, that makes the most positive life changes for me.
Hi, I’m back to post a comment, because I’m feeling lonely and angry with a slowly evolving realization I’ve been having for the past month. As you may remember, I left my therapist of 16 years recently with the support of people on this blog. Now I’m starting to see more clearly how my therapist had it all wrong. He didn’t get some basic obvious connections which I’ve had to come to on my own. I feel very cheated and duped. These connections and paths to healing aren’t minor but major psychological ones. I’m very angry and know that he would deny this. He denied them in one of our last sessions. What pisses me off so much is that it was my life, my intelligence, my perspicacity that was put on hold and supressed. I’m writing this in hopes to find a sympathetic ear. Thanks for reading.r
nyc1234, I’ve felt very much like what I understand what you’re describing–I’ve felt duped. I felt like therapy would offer me some sort of miraculous deliverance, only to discover years later that my therapists were just some guys who were taught a bunch of terminology in gradate school. Like what you describe, I felt I suspended my judgment in deferring to theirs. Duped is the word indeed. If I got anything from therapy it was paradoxical, I no longer believe in wizards.
I know what you mean about lonely and angry. Slowly I’m feeling it’s possible to fill up those holes, just in the living of life.
Anyway, I get that you’ve definitely confirmed your decision to leave. That was big for me.
Oh, and I’m convinced gestalt therapy is for simpletons. Sorry, I’m just angry and I know this is not the place for quick little comments.
Me too! Once I figured out that my therapist had been doing Gestalt on me, I started reading up on it. It’s bloody ridiculous and the originator, Fritz Perls, was obviously a nutjob with major personal problems. He was basically the last person anyone should life advice from.
therapyisacon, what was wrong with me that I didn’t do the research you did? Congrats on seeing through the malarky. See my later post on the issue of rage and the gestalt theory. Took me forever to finally stand up for myself. pooh.
We’ve all been told that this baloney somehow is on the same par with medical services. They’ve been trained and validated by prestigious institutions. Much of what we watch and read tell us these are serious, qualified, responsible people who will improve our lives if we follow their program.
No wonder I was fooled.
It takes a huge amount of critical thinking to see through the hokum. From what I’ve seen too, many of them understandably are terrified of criticism. All but one of my therapists were obtuse shallow phonies who I wouldn’t l relish joining for coffee in real life.
Oh I didn’t see through the malarkey right away. It took me 11 sessions to add up all the red flags, realize something was wrong, and bail. Only later when I was trying to make sense of the situation and looked into the therapist’s “credentials” did I find out that she was doing Gestalt therapy on me.
In that 11 sessions she managed to do quite a bit of damage. I was constantly being negated (she’d say “challenged”). It really did replicate the experience of having an emotionally abusive parent. Everything I said was wrong, I could only be right when she had “fixed” me.
Oh, then there was the confidentiality violation. What a ****.
therapyisacon, wow, sounds terrible what you experienced. I guess different therapists modify the Gestalt techniques to suit their methods, because my therapist was never outright abusive like that. He was much more understanding – up to a point. I’m not a complete masochist; I would never have endured what you endured for 16 years. What I do remember was that whenever I felt close to a breakthrough, the process would lay foul and he left me “sitting” with my painful feelings. I would consider that convert abuse since he was, in fact, abandoning me to my most inner private feelings. I’m assuming he did this because he had not dealt with his own most painful feelings in a complete and healing way. It was either sit with the pain or do chair work. The chair work was like a distraction actually. Even though it would make me feel better, it couldn’t get at the root of the issue. The same problem would then resurface a few days later, unchanged. I wouldn’t call that successful therapy.
I hope I’m not being indulgent by going on and on about Gestalt therapy, but it helps me a lot to write about this to people who may undestand. There is no one else I can talk to now.
The other realization I’ve had is that Gestalt dream work is also shallow. While I’ve been out of therapy this past month, I’ve come to understand two major dreams I’ve had in a way that was never possible in therapy. The understanding I’ve come to is so incredible, I almost can’t understand how my therapist avoided so completely these unrefutable, accurate interpretations – except that he avoided arriving at them simply because he was married to his method. I know my interpretations are accurate, because they are ah-ha moments where I understand fully and compassionately why I act the way I do. It’s not a self-absorbed state or a silly Gestalt psychodrama, but simply the truth, unvarnished and liberating.
I want to thank you guys/gals again for conversing with me. Your openness and attentiveness is very helpful.
[replying to 1234nyc below-system won’t let me reply directly]
That was the crux of the problem with my therapist – my interpretations/thoughts/assessements of my particular situation were bang-on, but my therapist simply could not accept that. She’d just keep picking at me until I finally changed my mind. I think she was using the confusion technique to do so; she kept abruptly changing the subject or asking random questions or attempting chair work. (She never called it chair work, she’d just out of the blue suggest that I pretend someone was sitting in the empty chair blahblahblah, which I never really did because I thought it was stupid.)
When I got copies of her notes on my sessions, I was really disturbed at what I found. Right from the very first session she doubted the basic truth of what I was saying, despite not knowing me at all. It’s right there in the notes. How is therapy possible when the therapist refuses to believe you?
I’m glad you are posting and that we are having this exchange. It’s motivating me to get back to work on my blog. I have heaps more to say!!
Ugh, reading your post makes me so angry. That therapist sounds like she had some real blinders on. What was she hiding from? Her own fear was causing her to hurt her own patients. How convenient for her. What a nice setup for her to placate her own insecurity.
The more I read, the more I wonder if therapists’ training contributes to this unreal world some of them seem to live in. Nothing is straight up, rather it’s all filtered and interpreted for some deeper meaning. So everything is distorted because they have to take what they see and hear to other places. Utterly convoluted.
Thanks for your response. It helps me to feel like a sentient, intelligent person,rather than an ungrateful, misunderstanding, doesn’t-get-it-yet therapy patient.
nyc, comment away; This discussion began with an essay a year ago, so there’s no rules or format.
I assume we’ve all “outgrown” things that have worked for us for a while. And we merely have to turn on the news to know disillusionment with former idols.
You said that you did weather some difficult storms and made changes in your life. It’s hard sometimes to “pat ourselves on the back” for things we’ve accomplished, but sounds like you’ve gotten through stuff.
Disclaimer again: I’m a peer who’s also had bad therapy. Web-based support group of more folks:
http://therapyabuse.org/
NYC (just saw your second comment. Ohh boy, did I feel like a “bad patient.” I felt so guilty, crazy, like I’d “flunked” therapy. Now I feel, like, boy, was I in the cult. But whether it’s breaking up with a shrink, or a partner, it can be one of those forehead …thunk…times. He promised me something I thought I needed.
One of the reasons why I left was that I no longer wanted to have this other person, my therapist, running around in my head guiding my life. Our sessions had reached a point already more than a year ago, where I was mentally struggling during the week to throw him out of my mind. Everything I was doing had to refer back to any guidance or thought he had thrown my way that week. Granted, this is how therapy works, but how does that liberate the patient? One could be dependant on advice forever. Plus, the gestalt chair work was masking my own feelings because it’s based on some simple, but incorrect assumptions on how the mind works.
I remember asking my therapist, what do I do with this rage I feel? I knew it had great significance. I felt intuitively that this rage was a vital part of me, simply because it was so powerful and primal. He really couldn’t answer the question. I then felt ashamed of my rage and reasoned that it was not acceptable since he would not validate it. Instead I heard from him these ideas about good anger and bad anger. Anger that is empowering is good. Anger that comes from a victimized stance is bad. PUHLEEASE! What I’m going to say next may be controversial, but I dare my therapist to say such a thing to the victims of the holocaust. Where does a sex abuse victim put his/her rage? Where does an abused child put his/her rage? Rage doesn’t reason with good and bad, it just is and is completely justifiable. Rage is a defense and protection against further abuse and a healthy, normal human reaction. Any theory, such as Gestalt, that would deny the reality and validity of victimhood and rage, is based on a fundamental lie.
It was exactly at this point of realization about rage that I no longer could trust my therapist. My body would not relax and I was completely incalcitrant. I knew he had done me a disservice. Despite the many times he had helped my navigate through my life, he had also cleverly, without his knowing, guided me away from myself. Had he guided me to myself, I would have left many, many years ago. I would not have needed him, because I would have had myself as a guide.
1234nyc, I’ve been reading your posts and it makes me think of something my therapist used to regularly say: “It is the job of a therapist to work himself out of a job.” YET he kept me there seven years! Interesting. 😦
It’s sad, because obviously if we felt the therapy had helped us, we wouldn’t be regretting the length of time spent.
I think a large issue for many people is dependence vs. interdependence. When I was younger and in therapy, I presumed any forceful personality wiser than me. Therapy only reinforced this, because of the THERAPIST’s needs. We have to look at what therapists are taught-a bunch of theory, terminology, how to diagnosis people–which is questionable since categories all are so arbitrary.
They aren’t taught wisdom. There’s nothing they learn in grad school that qualifies them to run someone else’s life, and if they pretend this ,I think they
overreach.
In retrospective,I’m angry they pretended to advise me on my life, I’m angry they encouraged me to stew in my sorrows, and I’m angry at the entire psychobabble framework they disseminate which is a convolution of life, in my opinion.
I assume if there ever was a large central discussion about “what is a healthy life” there wouldn’t be a consensus. Maybe that’s the first problem with therapy. Because if we ever started a gritty discussion comparing goals if our ex-therapists, I wonder if there would be an agreement.
But one thing I believe, is that a healthy life includes loosening of the authoritarian constructive, the reflex we had as children to defer to the instruction and wisdom of a stronger elder. I believe as adults we can ask others for an opinion, but ultimately make our own choices and be responsible for them. However, I believe therapy keeps us in a “holding pattern,” keeping that authority figure still present, as opposed to setting us free to steer our on destinies.
And maybe that’s why it’s so scary to make this break. There’s no Santa, there’s no wiser elder, though there are always people around us to lend us opinions we might keep or discard. The weight of responsibility for our own lives can be scary when we’re emerging for the cradle, even if that cradle was of unsound construction.
I see many therapists not understanding this. Look at therapy in the media or interactions on the internet. The therapist is The Authority.
(Half-joking, but only half…) The discipline of psychoanalysis started in Germany/Austria….what does that tell you 😉
NYC–That thought has crossed my mind as well. Not exactly an era and place of humanism and enlightenment.
Rats. “A Dangerous Method” will not open in Canada until mid-January. I really want to see this film! Have any of you seen it yet?
I saw it last week here in New York. It didn’t spare Jung or Freud, especially Jung, portraying them both with their flaws. Spielrein was also not made a heroine, but the film was definitely in her favor. The film also showed these psychoanalysts groping in the dark for their theories, which is was accurate and fair. All in all, I though it was a good film, but wasn’t clear what the ultimate message was, except that Jung slept with his two of his patients and that Freud was an insecure tyrant.
The film doesn’t open here until closer to Christmas. I hope it starts discussions. There aren’t many works that discuss therapeutic seduction as a narrative rather than a theory. For those in NYC, or within striking distance, the Museum of Television and Radio there lists a 1991 PBS Frontline documentary “My Doctor, My Lover” as available for viewing. I hope everyone is well. Paradoxically, my continual “critical” look at therapy has helped me understand and maybe somewhat immunize me from other manipulations.
I really enjoyed this guy’s essays which read like the product of hard-won knowledge. I edited this to reflect the link’s new address.
Click to access therapy_short.pdf
I’m a very opinionated lay person, though we’ve had people in this discussion with professional credentials.
Sooo, I finally saw “A Dangerous Method” this afternoon. It didn’t say a lot about psychoanalysis. The characters had some theoretical discussions but it didn’t seem to amount to much. Mostly the film is concerned with the relationship between the three people, though primarily Spielrein and Jung. If these people hadn’t become famous and influential, I’m doubt anyone would find them interesting enough to make a movie about them. Considering who directed it, I thought it would be more… edgy, weird, intense. But it wasn’t. It was just OK.
However, I’m a sucker for period films so I enjoyed the costumes, sets, etc. The fabrics of the olden times always seem so luxurious in movies. I wonder if they really were?
Danger Method came and went quickly at our local arthouse, so unless it returns, I might have to wait for the video. Imagine I”ll have a strong reaction. I’ve had the same thought as you about those luxurious costume films. I do wonder if people really were that decked out–particularly considering bathing facilities were more primitive.
I appreciate you creating this blog and giving people a place to voice their concerns. Often times I think when something happens to us we think we are unique and that we are the only person experiencing that thing. Clearly I was so wrong. While each person has their own unique story and flavor to add there is still a common thread. We each went to a “professional” seeking help of some kind and ended up worse for it. After my most recent negative experience I am questioning the entire therapy model itself. I am still shocked and amazed that my former therapist was essentially able to get away with violating the ethical rules that govern her profession. I myself have been in weekly or bi-monthly therapy for about 15 years with what I feel has been little to no benefit from these so-called professionals. I do feel I have gained some insight from books I have read, people I have met and our discussions. I believe there may be more incompetent, harmful therapists than good ones and one of the biggest challenges I see to that is the lack of information surrounding complaints and disciplinary actions being filed. I think it would be helpful to have a national database that clients could search. Everyone claims they are afraid of being sued, what they fail to mention is that it is not always so easy to find a lawyer who will take a case. Lawyers generally only pursue cases of sexual misconduct, they find cases of emotional abuse hard to pursue because it’s the client’s word against the therapist. So after spending more than a year trying to get justice I now have to realize the system is broken and justice will not happen on this side of heaven. All I can do is try to help someone else make different choices than I did.
Phoenix, not sure what compels me to write this, but you have my real sympathy for having suffered emotional abuse at the hands of someone who was suppose help you heal. Instead you received further wounding. This sympathetic feelings goes out to everyone here on this blog. There is definitely something criminal about these horrifying scenarios.
Phoenix, you have expressed very well the core problem that brings us to blogs like these. Good on you for speaking out.
Hi, Phoenix, love your id. I know well that feeling of feeling alone, stranded and “gaslighted” by the therapist who did everything in his power to convince me I was crazy instead of blaming himself. As I stood back years later and reflected on my therapy, I felt thoroughly conned, as much so if I’d given my money to some hotel-room self-improvement huckster. And that was the “non-abusive” therapy. And the “abusive” therapy was not seen that way by the therapists’ peers, but hey, the American Psychological Association gave that exploitative bully Dr. Phil a Presidential Citation.
Blogging, reading, talking to others who went through it was more helpful than therapy ever was. I just found essays by another former client, that muse about the erroneous assumptions of the therapy model.http://www.justinwyllie.net/psychotherapy
I’d love access to a database like you describe.
Phoenix upthread you asked about who has held therapists accountable. In my reading, and talking a a newspaper reporter who researched this,I understand therapy abuse cases are very difficult to win unless the offense is blatant and provable. I’ve thought the job is disciplining therapists is left mainly to peers (someone correct me if I’m wrong about licensing board composition). Outright sexual abuse cases have been won. But I’ve yet to “meet” someone wining a t complaints about more subtle abuse, or simply raising our hopes and taking our money..
I’ve read a few critiques of the system, notably Tana Dineen’s Manufacturing Victims, Shrinking of America: Myths of Psychological Change by Bernard Zilbergeld, and the 40-year-old Psychotherapy, The Hazardous Cure by Dorothy Tennov. I’m unaware of these books, thoughtful as they are, affecting the juggernaut.
This woman, for instance won her case and saw the therapist’s license suspended, and even then not even revoked. http://www.survivingtherapistabuse.com/my-story/
Here is an additional resource on therapy
http://therapyconsumerguide.com/
This website has just been uploaded and will be constantly changing and growing. Many other posts on many important topics related to therapy are coming.
2duraka, as a consumer, I’m so happy to see the discussion you’ve begun in your blog. I’ll link to it from here and look forward to your explorations. I’ve found, as I tried to explain above,that therapy doesn’t have to be blatantly unethical to be harmful. I think the first step is to get the relationship on a more realistic footing. Thanks.
Readers of this blog might be interested in a thread on the Psychology Today blogs. It started with an article by psychiatrist David M. Allen, titled “The Limits of Cognitive Therapy.” Allen subscribes to the “integrationist” school of therapy. Robert Leahy, a psychologist of the Cognitive Behavioral school, wrote a response article (in which he mistakenly called Allen a psychoanalyst). Both articles generated a lot of reader comments. Leahy’s article is at http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anxiety-files/201111/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-proven-effectiveness. It has a link to Allen’s article. The articles give an idea of the conflicts between the different schools of psychotherapy. But I was impressed by the fact that Allen responded to comments; Leahy didn’t. (I actually had a fairly extended dialogue with Allen, under the name Skeptical Mary.)
Mary, you’re a formidable skeptic. Brava for questioning the articles, and your strong, informed substantiation of your assertions.
I write from untrained observation, but I’m struck by a few parts of this discussion. I’m dubious how outcomes can be measured because of the complexity of human distress and the wishful thinking and investment that consumers put into therapy even before researcher bias. I personally seen therapists completely inaccurate in their outcome assessments.
I’ve no doubt some clients enter therapy and “feel” better, even quite quickly. Therapy often inflates us with hope and makes feel understood, maybe for the first time. However, quick relief is far different than making substantial long-term changes.
I read some of Karen Horney’s writings years ago, found them enjoyable and helpful. My simplistic understanding: she explains our irrational parts in talking about conflicts, the conflicting relationships with those closest to us that are internalized as we mature. These conflicts lead to the creation of false selves in order to cope. In other words, the irrational parts of the human personality are large entanglements that are strongly “protected” and difficult to address as giant knots.
It’s interesting to read “have you read” one-upmanship that mental health professionals play with one another, It certainly doesn’t increase my respect for them.
Yes, measuring “outcomes” is a very dubious part of any attempt to be scientific or substantiate the effectiveness of psychotherapy. The “measures” that researchers and therapists use often seem pretty arbitrary. The ones I’ve seen often have questions that I don’t understand, and things that seem irrelevant, and miss things that seem very relevant. And if the therapist is doing the evaluating, the results could be very different than if the client responded to the same evaluation questions.
I would have a very different report about my outcome when I was in it, as opposed to some time later. Like most clients, I’d invested a great amount of hope, time, and money and convinced myself that the ridiculous exercises were somehow worthwhile. As time passed, I realized it made not a bit of difference in my life. Now decades later, I see the detrimental effect of it.
I received an email today about another Psychology Today fisticuffs, this one over a research study of long-term therapy. As an unschooled consumer who wonders how the quality of a human life ever can be measured (save –perhaps –once-institutionalized patients) I maintain a “pass the popcorn” attitude about this.
The first is a link to comments from Michael D. Anestis, Ph.D. who sent the email:
http://www.psychotherapybrownbag.com/psychotherapy_brown_bag_a/2012/01/long-term-psychodynamic-psychotherapy-discussing-the-evidence.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PsychotherapyBrownBag+%28Psychotherapy+Brown+Bag%29
I’ll link to his links on Psychology Today as well.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-shrink-tank/201201/oops-another-flawed-report-long-term-psychodynamic-psychotherapy
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-skeptical-sleuth/201201/is-long-term-psychodynamic-psychotherapy-worthwhile
Funny, just yesterday I got into an online debate (on quite a different forum, it was a post on “life coaching” that set it all off) with someone about the effectiveness of therapy. Of course – considering my screenname – I said that therapy has not been proven to be effective. Another poster replied that yes, it has, for decades now, and then got into the usual logical fallacies (it’s just a few bad apples, other professions aren’t perfect either, etc). I replied with some links and search terms so she could find the info for herself, and left it at that. (I’m fine with people writing me off as an internet nutjob, but it’s much harder to write off the likes of Bernie Zilbergeld and David Smail.)
So what I find so amusing and affirming about the Psychology Today debate is that even amongst the experts, the true believers, there is no agreement on 1) how to properly evaluate therapy, 2) what evaluation results mean, 3) whether therapy should even be evaluated because each real-world case is too unique. Even they haven’t got a clue about the true worth of what they are doing – but they still presume to advise us laypeople. That is what galls me the most: that the therapy industry KNOWINGLY misleads the public that therapy “works”. And they charge a lot for this useless activity.
Just a thought: I think therapists should only practice if they’ve done the necessary “work” and have proven in their own lives what they profess to offer to others. Many therapists have not done the work. Since I’m a singer, it would be the same as a voice teacher promising to teach you how to sing a high C, when they can’t do it themselves – no good.
Can you imagine, say, being able to reference-check a therapist by speaking to their ex-clients, ex-lovers/spouses, neighbours, their therapists, etc? Getting info on their financial well-being and credit history?
“Oh hey, this therapist owes their ex thousands in child support. But I’m sure that has nothing to do with their recommendation that I do long-term therapy.”
“Oh hey, this therapist has been arrested twice for domestic violence. I should totally follow their advice on my marital problems.”
Heh.
Hehe, yes, those would be big alarm bells! But, a therapist doesn’t have to a perfect person, that would be unfair. I do think they need to be some sort of HONEST living proof of what they say they can do for you. Patients enter blindly with trust in something they know absolutely nothing about and therefore have no yard stick to measure the “doctor”. It’s real taboo to ask the therapist too many questions about them. If you do, they just reflect the questions back on you. The therapist is like a closed closet where all the light is shined on the poor patient. How can a patient make an informed decision with no personal info about the therapist? Sounds simple, right? But, the deck is stacked against the unaware and uninformed.
The “script” is structured to lead us to believe we’re the one with problems and that somehow if we travel through the therapist’s dark, mysterious chamber, we’ll emerge into some sort of happy land (cue the Disney chirping bluebirds) on the side.
At least that’s how I bought the myth. Now, I see a therapist argue these were my projections. (Client’s fault! Client’s fault!) But as I reflect on the stagecraft, it’s designed to make us feel like “patients” in the presence of the knowing and powerful. The professionals need make their entrance with their “authority” cloak even in a casual web discussion.
So given the therapist’s life is as messy as anyone’s can therapy transact on a realistic footing?
I’m too amused by the debates. I think the professionals fight with so much acrimony because somewhere in the recesses in their minds they fear the truth.
I’m continue learning from you, and I’m bettering myself. I really enjoy reading everything that’s written on your blog. Keep the posts coming. Really enjoy it!
Otis. Thank you so much for “listening” and for your feedback. I feel I’m providing questions rather than answers. Though it might create an productive synthesis if professionals had more conversations with their critics.
Followers of this blog might be interested in psychologist Bruce Levine’s February 26 blog “Why Anti-Authoritarians are Diagnosed as Mentally Ill” on the Mad in America website. Levine’s post has generated a considerable number of comments.
Mary, that is an interesting article and sets my thoughts in several directions–how normal childhood can be “diagnosed,” and why a large body of counselors seem to threatened when therapeutic tenets are questioned.
Mary, I very much enjoyed what I assume was your post at the end which talks about the ramifications the authoritarian model in psychotherapy.
http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/02/why-anti-authoritarians-are-diagnosed-as-mentally-ill/
This article is excellent and so rare! Thank you for posting this!
I agree! Great article.
I remember bitterly an experience with my ex-therapist. I read to him an angry letter I had written to the religious organization I belonged to at the time, a letter that criticized the organization for how they treated their gay/lesbian members. My therapist responded so blandly and offered very little support. At the next session I brought it up complaining that he had not congratulated me on a job well done. He responded by apologizing that he was not in tune with me and that he did know I had problems with authority. Kind of like an apology with a one-two slap. The other odd thing is that my therapist is a gay man, too.
oops, “my therapist is a gay man” should read “my ex-therapist is a gay man”
1234nyc: The more I look into the therapy model, the more I understand its flaws. When it’s presented as one person, processed and perfected, beaming his beneficence on another frail and flawed. it’s utterly bogus and likely to cause harm. Yeah, you’re describing what seems like a thudding dismissal of a complex and contradicting (and I presume heartbreaking) situation. I can only begin to imagine the conflicts of it.
As Levine alludes to in his article, strategizing our relationships with “authority” can be a lifeline art. At my ripe “middle” age, I constantly assess when to blend in, when to leave, when to speak up, as well as the price of compromise.
The article presents interesting ideas why so many counselors, who present themselves as truth-seekers, seem to slow to deconstruct their own profession.
Could I return to my birth and chose my disposition, I suspect I’d still opt for a skeptical, “anti-authoritarian” one. Painful, yes, but much more interesting.
Thanks for the support, dis. I think my therapist was afraid of direct expression of anger in general, especially towards authority. He did say previous to writing the letter that he found the organization’s stance on homosexuality confusing. But, once I started expressing emotion around it, he’d get kind of quiet. Weird.
nyc: That sounds likely. And If your therapist’s faith was important to him, I wonder if he had his own conflicts around the issues you discussed too.
I have to imagine that disillusionment around a religious institution or group is every bit as heartbreaking and conflicting as distancing from a loved one, maybe more . After all, these institutions are lifelong harbors of strength and support, like a family.
I’m in pain when I learn the dishonor of some religious leaders and institutions toward the LGBT community, (I assume) it forces some people to choose between their own truths and their community.
There are many moments I can’t do anything but just sit down and be confused.
You rock. 🙂
So do you, nyc.:-)
Hi everyone,
There is an article on Psychology Today on “love” in therapy that I am sure all of you will find outrageous. Here is the link to the second part of it http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201110/secrets-psychotherapy-whats-love-got-do-it-part-two
I don’t know where the first part is. I am sure it can be easily found there. I couldn’t even read this one part, it was too much. I just glanced at it, got the idea and posted a comment to it. I don’t know if any one of you would want to comment as well, but I just wanted to send you the link anyway because I find it outrageous that such ideas are being promoted and sold to the lay public.
Thanks Marina. I read of nothing but pain from clients who were lured into “loving” their therapists. The emotion alone dominated sessions and impeded any benefits they might have received. The article sounds like a justification for a therapist currying his ego. This is what I submitted, though it’s yet to appear:
This article reminds me of two characters–the strutting, grandiose Lothario, deluded that his conquests are lucky to receive his attentions AND the patriarch-knows-best who sees “patients” as “needing structure, limits, firmness, guidance, encouragement, confrontation….”
I agree with “Amused Reader” that the article demonstrates no concept of a consumer viewpoint. Purchased “love,”stoked by counselor role-playing, can be far more damaging than the real-life version which at least provides the unrequited soul with authentic feedback. The client ultimately feels duped that she was charmed into surrendering her defenses for an artificial performance.
Real healing is the ability to live more competently–often the result of time and experience. That “love” in 50-minute compartments is like fairy dust is indeed magical thinking.
Let me propose that therapists take their noses out of their theory books and consider common sense. I see not one dab of “love” in this article. It reads as utter condescension.
Great response, disequilibrium1. I couldn’t be even half as articulate as you were in your comment because the pain is still raw and as long as it’s raw it’d be hard for me to put my experience into words. That’s the reason why authors of those articles are very bold presenting their dangerous ideas to the public and those like me and others who were “loved” by their therapists have trouble speaking up. I’ve gotten so much invalidation of my trauma from both, the practitioners and the lay persons, that every time I see an article or a viewpoint in the media that not only justifies but glorifies abuse, it hurts like hell. I know that the ordinary reader is very susceptible to brainwashing and is prone to believe those with impressive credentials. After all, the word “love” by definition creates a positive image in our both conscious and unconscious minds. We are brainwashed by the culture to romanticize love, and any romantic version of love is a dangerous illusion, especially in therapy, where a therapy situation by itself makes real mutual love and intimacy impossible. On the one hand, the practitioners’ desire to brainwash people is very disturbing and, on the other hand, the clients’ desire to be brainwashed and their commitment to live in a dream is even more disturbing and doesn’t fail to amaze me every time I see it. I know so many therapy clients who believe that “loving” their therapists and being “loved” by them is very healing. Every time I tried to give them an alternative look at the reality of their situation I got blasted! They were ready to take a bullet for their beloved therapists! By the way, I started an article on a perceived “intimacy” in therapy on my website. I am only done with the first part of it but more is coming. Here is the link
http://therapyconsumerguide.com/intimacy-in-therapy-reality-or-a-dangerous-illusion/ There will be more posts on laws and ethics soon. I also want to recommend the blog that I found very impressive http://www.beyondmeds.com Anyone who wants can also follow me on Twitter @TherapyCG.
Marina, Thanks for your words. I think your “reality vs. dangerous illusion” piece is lovely, both your ideas and their articulation. (Maybe a book developing?)
My damaging therapy is not fresh, and stems from a mutual dislike, so I wrote more from my reaction to the overall arrogance.
I agree with all your points–intimacy in therapy isn’t reciprocal, so is far from “lessons” about love, assuming there is such a thing. Can I add more exploration? One point is raised by an article respondent about how therapist “love” can horribly sabotage a real-life relationship. A married woman fantasizing about her therapist with her spouse in the living room? If a client is single, then she’s beaming her fantasies toward a relationship that will never be realized. Then generally, if therapy assumes disproportional energy in a client’s life, that is equally sabotaging.
An important issue is how “love,” idolization, creates a fertile ground for extensive damage when (note I don’t say if) a therapist drops professional demeanor and says something miscalculated or inaccurate. The client has suspended her judgment making it much more difficult to sort out reality. And If a client diverges from her idolizing or deferential role, this easily can provoke retribution from the unconsciously spurned therapist.
Then there is the issue of the therapist’s hubris. That article reminds me of the lounge lizard –let’s give him a green poly leisure suit. “Hey babe, one night with me, I’m taking you to heaven, and your life will be forever changed.”
A little grandiose, perhaps? 🙂
Marina…your wonderful statement “I hate to intellectualize about human experiences because this sucks life out of them” is in such truthful contrast to Diamond’s assertions in his article. His theories feel so formulaic, like a cookbook: hole in soul+therapist’s love =miraculous healing.
An important source of my pain when I was younger was feeling incompetent–I felt in childhood long past its expiration date. So that last thing needed was a Wizard to idolize. Over the years as I racked up a professional resume and threaded through difficult problems, I felt ready for my driver’s license. (OK, I exaggerate; I did drive a car on schedule.)
I’m confident there is an array of reasons people find themselves in therapy, and a spectrum of “needs.” Diamond’s formulaic certitude is so presumptive.
I’m writing from a smartphone, so I have to be brief. First, your comments, Marina and Dis, are spot on, imo. I’m more a little concerned that Psychology Today published this. Therapists sleeping with their patients is sexual abuse plain and simple. Any other explanation serves only to gratify the therapists prurient interests and issues of power. This is not to be taken lightly.
Uh oh, I spoke too soon. Sorry, guys. It’s been a rough week. The author doesn’t advocate sex between therapist and patient, as you know. I think his take on love in therapy is naif and off the mark, though. I really enjoyed reading your comments. (*sheepishly signs off*)
Hi nyc. Hope it’s a good, if rainy day. As I understand the article, the author, Stephen Diamond, is firm that sleeping with a patient is taboo. However, he seems to applaud a patient’s eroticized love, which he deems as transference and magically transforming. A therapist having the hots for a patient too is just dandy as long as it’s “handled properly.”
Marina and I strongly disagree. In my short-track experience talking to other women, an emotional affair or unrequited (or perhaps encouraged? ) crush can be devastatingly damaging for a host of reasons.
I’ll paste some excerpts from the article.
“The psychotherapist’s offering of non-physical or platonic love to the patient is what encourages, stimulates and enables the patient to gradually reciprocate in kind. To open up to love…..
“To relinquish control and be more receptive to love….This libidinal energy is daimonic, which is to say that it is uncannily powerful, and can be both destructive and creative. If the erotic transference can be handled properly, without dismissing, denigrating or rejecting it, while at the same time firmly maintaining clear and consistent boundaries, this newly liberated libidinal energy or love from the patient can be redirected out into his or her life beyond the therapist’s office.For now, the patient has once again experienced love, at least to some degree, albeit in the relative safety and security of the sacred container or temenos of psychotherapy. “
NYC, if you knew how many typos I’ve posted to the universe, you’d know I deserve the sheepish prize. Good to hear from you.
Disequilibrium1, thank you for understanding. It doesn’t happen too often that my ideas are understood exactly for what they are, so every time it happens I appreciate it very much.
You know, I am trying to get a feeling of what Diamond’s article really was-just an expression of his stunning ignorance and way too common professional arrogance or a perpetrator’s attempt to justify his own and his unethical colleagues’ misdeeds. My gut tells me that it’s the latter. Actually, the reason why I think Diamond is a perpetrator himself is because this kind of an article can be only written by someone who is emotionally invested in the issue discussed. And why would you be emotionally invested in it if it hasn’t been your personal experience? He is certainly not someone who has been victimized by “love” in therapy, so the conclusion is that he is a perpetrator. Actually, I am wrong. He could be both, a victim and a perpetrator of “love” in therapy, who has never acknowledged his own victimization and therefore can’t or doesn’t want to see “love” in therapy as damaging and destructive. My therapist who “loved” me was also “loved” by his own therapist but was never able to see it as abuse in spite of all my attempts to open his eyes to it. He idolized his therapist, constantly kept telling me that the guy “saved” his life.
Disequilibrium1, one of my major life issues has been the same as yours-feeling incompetent. Since I remember myself, my father never failed to communicate to me that I could do nothing and would never amount to anything and made sure that I always remember it. At best, I was treated like a piece of furniture that has nothing valuable to say. At worst moments, I was told to learn my place and not to discuss his orders. Later, in my adult years, I realized that he put me down because he felt threatened by me. I was a smart kid and developed my own views on things that were more insightful and made more sense than his and this threatened his ego very much. Needless to say, the way he treated me made me insecure about my abilities and capacities and this issue has become permanent in my life despite my intellectual understanding that I am a quite capable person.
Now, imagine someone like me or you (since you have the same issue) seeing a therapist who constantly tells you that you are fantastic, gifted, that you have a unique vision of life that others don’t have and that he admires your talents very much. He also tells you how much he cares about you and how important you are to him. He encourages you to put your talents into a good use, tells you that you’ve got all you need to conquer the world. He basically tells you “you rock!” Also, imagine that his admiration and acknowledgment of your talents are spiced up with erotic energy that comes through his voice, facial expressions, gestures, questionable statements that contain enough to communicate attraction but not enough to get himself in trouble. How would all of the above affect someone who has been put down, belittled and criticized for her entire life by many people starting with her father? Of course, she would be in love with this guy pretty soon and her love would take on a very obsessive and addictive quality. And it’s mostly the fact that this man is her therapist and is, by definition, less vulnerable and, therefore, more powerful one in the relationship that makes her love for him so destructively obsessive and addictive. This experience becomes a living hell on earth. This man becomes everything for her-a symbolic “loving” father she’s always wanted to have so badly, a symbolic lover who penetrates her energetically (both roles together “father+lover” make this whole thing similar to incest), a compassionate caring “doctor” and a best friend. At the same time, she knows that they will never become partners nor will he ever care about her as a real father would nor will they ever hang out as friends do. She doesn’t understand what kind of a relationship this is and that drives her crazy. When she tries to clarify it and confronts him, all she hears from him is either empty abstract words about intimacy and significance of their connection or, all of a sudden, he remembers that he is her therapist and uses a convenient trick that therapists often use when they get defensive. He turns tables and starts wondering why she is asking all these “suspicious” questions implying that what she is experiencing has nothing to do with his behavior. I don’t think I need to elaborate on this tactic as we all know it too well.
Anyway, all of the above is just to say that no sex is needed in order to qualify the above therapist’s behavior as unethical. Sex with one’s therapist is not the cause of emotional damage, it’s just a manifestation of it. The damage is done long before the sexual part comes into play and it’s very frustrating that not only therapists but our society as a whole doesn’t understand this. The so-called “intimacy” with therapists or what I call an “emotional intercourse” is what harms clients. Sex may or may not be a part of it and it doesn’t really matter whether it’s a part of it because the trauma is always emotional. I don’t want to diminish the sufferings of those who have been sexually exploited by their therapists on top of being exploited emotionally, but I do think that they have a better opportunity to heal than others because they get validation from the society at least up to some extend. Of course, we all are stigmatized in our culture as “troubled women”, but those who have been sexually abused are, at least, validated by the legal system (if they can present the evidence).
Last but not least, I want to say Disequilibrium1 that I am SO GLAD that you brought up a good point that encouraging erotic energy in therapy messes up with clients’ relationships with other people. I just wanted to yell YES! As I read it because it amazes me how people are not able to understand such trivial fundamental truth! Of course, when the woman-client is married, the emotional “intimacy” with her therapist does not help her marriage in any way, and, of course, if she is single, this “intimacy” distracts her from finding a partner and being available to some decent man who, unlike her therapist, will be available to her. It’s blows my mind that many people don’t get this and it enrages me that professionals who are supposed to be more enlightened than others encourage this emotional infidelity and destructiveness in a name of “healing”!
Marina, I share your outrage at this article which I consider simultaneously naive (thanks nyc) and arrogant. This guy has his nose so deeply in grand theory that he doesn’t understand the simple idea of verbal footsie.
I’ll join you in your theory that Diamond wrote this article to justify his own behavior. More quotes:
“Paradoxically, as psychoanalyst Erich Fromm points out, the patient has commonly come to psychotherapy, consciously or unconsciously, precisely because of problems concerning love.” ….””How to provide such therapeutic love without overstepping the physical or romantic boundaries is part of the art of psychotherapy”….”So erotic love can and sometimes does interfere with treatment. Especially when it takes possession of the psychotherapist and won’t let go. But, more often than not, when properly handled, love provides the basic curative power in therapy.”
This certainly hints of attractions to patients that he justifies because this “love” is healing and was handling masterfully. Oye.
And yes, your point about addictiveness is yet another argument about this stuff being encouraged/allowed to happen in therapy. And don’t get me started 😐 on counselors who duck tough “here and now” discussions by turning it into something to “interpret.”
A feeling of competence, yes, that’s very much what I needed when I was younger. But even if a therapist reassured for months on end, this is a feeling I could only get through using my resources in the big wide world. Another thing I needed: realistic view and expectations of other people. The distortions of a therapy relationship didn’t support this either.
If I ran the circus, the second rule after “do no harm” is “is this common sense?” I refuse to see the consulting room as a sacred place where the customs of human interaction don’t apply.
Another musing. When I meet these mind scrambles, I think of them as “lion’s mouth moments,” kind of gauges where I can react, think about my reactions, maybe reframe the person and the experience in a new way. It becomes chance to see that lion’s mouth is really the character of a backstage puppeteer.
I’m 4 years late, but I want to thank you and Marina for these comments in particular and I hope you don’t mind my verbally processing my current situation here.
I entered therapy a year and a few months ago after a sour relationship turned into a devastating breakup and I needed something just to stay alive at the time, and I realized through that experience I did have some long-standing emotional issues to work through.
I also promised myself after that that I’d never allow myself to stay in a relationship with anyone who had that sort of emotional leverage over me, where I depended on them intensely, but they didn’t seem to need me anywhere near as much.
Fast forward to right now. I absolutely adore my therapist. She feels like a kindred spirit, and a friend, and yeah, there is an attraction on my part, but for the most part my issue is how much the illusion, the lack of realization that this is, supposedly, a professional relationship, took over for the past several months of therapy.
Thing is, I really don’t know what I was picking up on from her. I’m hard-pressed to believe it was intentional–I don’t even know what her orientation is (I’m female), so I don’t feel good about calling abuse or manipulation here, but there was something I was picking up on. One or two incredibly innocent (seemingly? I’m not good at being able to tell anyway; I’m so prone to reading too deeply) comments that nevertheless pulled me in, and a really playful way of communicating. But also, some people are like that with everyone, so I really don’t know what to think, and I feel a certain way about myself and my appeal to others that I assume any such interpretation must be my own wishful thinking. And I have felt that she’s an ethical person who does care and wants to help. I don’t know. But at this point, even the level of familiarity that makes her feel like a close platonic friend and not a therapist (though really, what should a therapist feel like? we have no evolutionary precedence for such a relationship) is messing with me.
But I don’t hesitate to acknowledge that the profession as a whole is set up precisely for problems like these.
It was through studying types of therapy for a research project that reality hit me over the head. I couldn’t relate more to your reactions towards the way therapy describes human emotions and experiences alone, let alone clients– or “patients”. It reminded me that what I was feeling didn’t match reality. And yet, the feelings were so real, definitely for me and on some level for her (I could never interpret her as pretending to care, there’s no question it’s genuine, but that almost makes the matter worse). But ultimately, even though I feel so special a few days a week in that office, I’m just another client. A job. She wouldn’t even know I existed if I (or, well, medicare) didn’t cover it. Forgive me for being political, but I can think of no better an example of the level of absurdity capitalism has currently reached than the concept of “commodified compassion”. And this profession has compassion as its sole purpose, rather than just as a consequence like other professions– nurses, doctors, teachers etc.
The face that therapists are meant to put on… “unconditional positive regard”, as well as their almost complete opacity (my T isn’t strict about self disclosure, but that doesn’t = vulnerability, absolutely not at the level I’m experiencing it). It’s illusory. It’s a promise that no human being can live up to, and when combined with the meager limitations inherent to therapy, it all seems like a cruel joke when I step back and look at it.
I put just a few of these concerns forth in the session I had this morning, but I couldn’t manage to voice them until about 15 minutes or so before the session ended. After which I had to leave. Because the next client was waiting. I’m just one of many. She has real people in her real life that matter to her on a personal level, vs a level of people you work for.
I don’t want to make any rash decisions as I’ve only been in this space for a few days, so I’ll bring it up again at the next appointment. But I find myself hoping she’ll convince me to stay. And yet, when I told her that part of me felt like bolting, she didn’t seem to be terribly opposed. And I think a lot of people would be glad about that, but to me it just felt like another piece of evidence of my being unwanted. I’m kind of messed up in that sense, but those are the reasons they tell you to go to therapy, right?
I still believe relationships can heal, in a mutual way– not a “fixing” way. And upon stopping to think critically for 5 minutes, I am baffled at how someone whose true feelings you’ll never know other than “unconditional positive regard” can help you heal and function better. I need someone who will get angry at me, but doesn’t threaten me, so I can learn not to fear abandonment or violence. I need someone who will exchange vulnerability with me, not just passively observe mine and reassure me. Ultimately I need a friend, or a partner, a healthy relationship that’s real. It’s when I don’t know what’s under the non-judgmental surface that I can’t entirely feel safe– because one thing I DO know is that not even therapists are perfect. Maybe, especially not therapists. And maybe counseling has its role, but proper Therapy is so invasive, stepping into someone’s psychological landscape with the goal of achieving a certain end is as invasive as surgery with none of the prerequisite knowledge for the mind that we have for the physical body.
As an aside, I just want to say that when I learned about the concept of transference (which I’ve known of for a while now), I was absolutely horrified. Horrified by the idea that it was something that needed to be discussed, and worked through. I can’t think of anything more retraumatizing, honestly, than making myself even MORE vulnerable when I know for a fact that my feelings were running down an impossible path, and that I WILL with 100% certainty face rejection, which, no matter how compassionately expressed, would crush me and send me into a shame spiral that would be horrific to recover from. I already feel worthless, gross, unappealing, unlovable in that particular area of life (though thankfully, it’s not as bad these days in other areas of life). I don’t think something that I would experience as traumatic would help me work through anything. It sounds an awful lot like desensitization, rather than corrective experience in this particular case.
In any case, I’m sorry this is so long, and thank you so much for putting this essay, and your comments, out there. It’s an incredible relief to realize that I’m not the only one who’s struggled with the “therapeutic relationship”, and I’m not the only one to feel that it’s not just an uncomfortable necessity of healing, but an unhealthy dynamic of its own. How do you mix intimacy and professionalism? It makes no sense.
I’m tired and hurting. I don’t want to quit. It feels excruciating, like dying, very close to the level of pain that brought me to therapy in the first place. My heart is breaking at the thought of quitting– I honestly am not entirely sure I can go through with it. I’ve been feeling like I’ve been stabbed in the gut all day. I can’t imagine life without her– especially considering that at this point my social anxiety has wreaked enough havoc that I have nobody nearby except her. At the same time, though, I know I should not break my promise to myself to leave any situation where I was being emotionally hurt by a power imbalance. This is no different, except this time I’m recognizing it before any actual physical abandonment… and now I know rationally that I am capable of living through heartbreak, at least. I hope this time, if I have the courage to try at all, I can do so alone.
It is not the same as what happened to either of you as I don’t feel manipulation was intended in my case, but on some level I understand the pain of the confused nature of the relationship. I hate that I’m going through exactly what I came to therapy to recover from. I hate that my world and my understanding of it are breaking down again. But maybe claiming my own agency this time is the healing I was led here for.
I just really don’t want to.
Foxes, I well identify with your questions and that examining therapy itself feels “close to the level of pain that brought me to therapy in the first place.”
I appreciate your explorations like “How do you mix intimacy and professionalism? It makes no sense.” }
So many provoking thoughts: “… this profession has compassion as its sole purpose, rather than just as a consequence like other professions– nurses, doctors, teachers etc.” ” And maybe counseling has its role, but proper Therapy is so invasive, stepping into someone’s psychological landscape with the goal of achieving a certain end is as invasive as surgery with none of the prerequisite knowledge for the mind that we have for the physical body.”
I’ve asked myself: how can contrived, engineered nonmutual relationships cultivate more authentic relationships and lives? How does one person making all the rules guide another’s empowerment?
I only began my own paradigm shift long after I was out of therapy, not during it. I didn’t have the extra complication of an attraction, though I saw my therapists as “authorities.” It was extremely painful to dismantle that I’d purchased performances.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t see but a couple of practitioners write about these common sense questions.Given how a few providers have reacted on this blog, some of them seem resistant to the topics.
I wouldn’t begin to offer an opinion where you’d go from here, except that I’ve shared some version of the pain of burst illusion. I ultimately learned from that than from supposedly “good” therapy. And there was something paradoxically liberating in realizing the pain, hopeless dilemmas and devastating problems would be part of the texture of my life–rather than futilely waiting for a therapist to address or fix them.
Wishing you silver linings.
Foxes, lot of great insights and things I can relate to.
This I relate to a lot:
“The face that therapists are meant to put on… “unconditional positive regard”, as well as their almost complete opacity (my T isn’t strict about self disclosure, but that doesn’t = vulnerability, absolutely not at the level I’m experiencing it). It’s illusory. It’s a promise that no human being can live up to, and when combined with the meager limitations inherent to therapy, it all seems like a cruel joke when I step back and look at it.”
————
One of the main things I’ve struggled with is the basic confusion of just trying to understand what in the hell WAS that? Because of the opacity and the evasions and the heavy filtering, i was perpetually disoriented. There were elements of a romantic relationship, friendship, parent-child, disciple-guru. But it was none of those things. A bizarre laboratory version of a human relationship, with artificial boundaries that are considered sensible in the world of therapy, but end up being totally incongruent with the feelings and impulses that are exposed.
The unconditional positive regard persona is not only illusory, I think it lures vulnerable clients into dangerous idealizing. The T presents as fault-free, perfectly attuned, compassionate, there for you. Brings out dependency and neediness. Finally, says the wounded client, somebody that gets me and cares about me. But not really.
As AdamP said, “what the hell was that?”
It’s appears human, while being absolutely engineered robotics. The performance therapists deliver to clients is nearly opposite of the remote pathological specimen they seem to see us as in their literature. It’s oh so intense and oh so bogus.
Thank you for your response and the well-wishes, Disequilibrium–I definitely appreciate those right now 🙂
“I’ve asked myself: how can contrived, engineered nonmutual relationships cultivate more authentic relationships and lives? How does one person making all the rules guide another’s empowerment?”
Thank you for wording this line of thought so well, because that’s where the question leads for me too. Sure, on some level I feel nurtured (or did, I’m not so sure about that after all this dismantling), but even if reparenting were valid, parents are, ideally, increasingly honest with their kids before they send them off on their own. Kids start being asked to consider their parents’ feelings, how their actions affect the parent, as well as vice-versa. “Reparenting” in therapy is essentially, “I’ll treat you with the same patience I would a 6-year-old until you can grow up”, and the internal logic alone there is so sloppy that I wonder why I accepted it as valid in the first place.
I really enjoy the work of Brené Brown, who talks a lot about vulnerability and its place in healing. A lot of therapists like her work too, and mine has been using some of those ideas with me (though I brought them to therapy on my own, and my therapist is only familiar with them through me). But a key component of her work is that showing vulnerability with someone in your life close to you whom you really, truly trust, is healing *because* the response you get from them, if they are supportive (she also makes a point of being very selective with the people you form such a relationship with), also shows their own vulnerability, and reassures you that you’re still worthy despite whatever’s triggering your shame. It makes sense; that’s how we forge connection. But it’s also, I’m realizing, kind of impossible in a therapy setting, and I think the parts of me that could most benefit from healing, the ones I have so much shame around discussing, are ones that would be damaging to expose to someone who is not equally vulnerable. That’s why Brené Brown suggests being selective– because a lack of mutual response can be damaging.
Having “purchased performances” is an excellent way of putting it. My therapist comes across as very authentic– I believe that what she chooses to express is real. But what I question is whether filtering your personality to the level required by therapy techniques can really be called authentic– lies of omission in every other circumstance are still considered dishonest.
I’d be interested to hear an intellectually honest reflection on questions like these from a therapist too, honestly. And I think, just for closure’s sake, before I go–if I ultimately decide to go, I’m so emotionally torn for one, she’s an emotional crutch in a situation of isolation and toxic living conditions, and I know my current quiet acceptance won’t be so quiet or accepting the next time I’m actually in her office–I want to try to bring up a few of these questions. I did in my last session, but not very articulately. Maybe her response… or deflection, possibly, would help me clarify what I need to do.
I think a lot of them parrot what they’ve been told, and don’t question beyond that. If you’d have asked me a few months ago I would’ve too. And I can understand, because even the nicest person doesn’t want to hear that the premise they’ve built an entire career on and invested so much time and money into is wrong and even harmful. I’m honestly glad I had to face this now, because I had every intention of going into the deep kind of therapy as a profession too (my dear therapist told me I’d be good at it, too, before I even told her I was considering it, which I was. That makes me a bit sad, not sure why). I still want to do something to help, if I can find an avenue that my conscience doesn’t object to, but none of that emotionally invasive, reparenting, “i’ll fix you” stuff. Even if you approach it as an alliance, and try to reduce the power dynamic, the entire concept of working through transference has the air of wanting to be the one to “fix” someone.
I realize now too, that I was drawn to that stuff, yes, partly out of pure compassion and empathy for everyone who’s experienced what I have or worse, but partly out of ego–the need to “save” others. I feel it with my therapist, too… the way she says things sometimes has an air of satisfaction over being the only one who IS there, and there no matter what, who won’t leave me. I’m not mad or resentful really, and I’m not sure I could be given that I have the same inclination. I just recognize it. And admittedly, there’s something comfortable about it, until I remember the reality of the context. I think most of us want to feel like we personally have made a difference, but I want something I can take my ego out of a bit more– I have no right to take someone’s money only to get all codependent and weird on them, while also maintaining this weird “professional” setup of.. scheduled caring.
The argument I hear about the “commodified compassion” or “being paid to care” objection is that, people can still care even if they get paid. It sounds right for a while, but like I was saying before, comparing therapy to any other helping profession falls apart once you realize that with many types of therapy, the job isn’t getting paid to do a task and happening to care about those around you spontaneously, as much as it is JUST to show compassion, and accept, and “love”. That doesn’t always completely impede someone’s ability to care, but it both limits and informs it.
And plenty argue that this setup allows for a sort of “pure”, idealized, “Agape” love, and as such more perfect and more healing. But I don’t think the Greeks ever considered compensation part of the definition of Agape, nor do I think they considered it something that could be limited to a specific 50 minute window once (or even three times, as in my case) per week. And let me tell you, when you’re extremely upset, nowhere close to the rational part of your mind, feeling like you’ve stepped out of your own body and trying to reign in your crying–hearing that time is up right in the middle of that really doesn’t feel like a pure, healing love.
“I’ve shared some version of the pain of burst illusion. I ultimately learned from that than from supposedly “good” therapy. And there was something paradoxically liberating in realizing the pain, hopeless dilemmas and devastating problems would be part of the texture of my life–rather than futilely waiting for a therapist to address or fix them.”
I really like this point you made, as it’s along similar lines as to what I’ve been thinking about lately. I have a few diagnoses, one of them BPD, and part of what the research for university that I mentioned was about is essentially, what recovery means, and whether someone can “fully” recover from such a disorder, considering I do consider it a collection of coping mechanisms that helped us survive but hurt us in adulthood. (Regrettably, I feel my ability to write this paper is now compromised and I’m locked in now, but maybe I can find a spin on it that’s still mostly authentic.)
I’ve been thinking about a “wounded healer” archetype lately– I like archetypes; I think stories teach us a lot about our experience as humans. The healer tries to heal in others the wound that he can never heal in himself. And thinking about wounds that don’t heal… I never really liked or wanted to accept that idea, and much less the idea that you can’t recover from something like what I’m experiencing. And I’ve come to something like– I’m very optimistic, so I think full recovery is possible in that you can get a LOT better. Not-disordered. But you can’t measure it, really, because nobody is ever “done” working through things; it lasts your whole life. Most mood, anxiety, or personality disorders are, for the most part, amplifications of the wounds, fears, and tendencies everyone has to some degree. I like to think they can be healed to a degree where the pain doesn’t diminish your quality of life; I would like to eventually not have a debilitating, panic-inducing fear of abandonment for example. But it will never be like not having experienced those things. Even if all that’s left is being sensitive to those struggling with the same thing, just the memory of how much it can hurt changes you. And that reality doesn’t have to be miserable, I’m finding. It just /is/. And it is, for everyone.
Nobody welcomes abandonment, nobody has an easy time losing somebody who meant something to them. I can’t expect to be immune to any of that, anyway, no matter how much therapy I do, and no matter how much I heal through that or anything else. Most people don’t feel suicidal after, and I think it’s also healthy not to feel like you’ve LOST your very self once it happens, but the devastation part happens to everyone. It’s a part of life. And maybe enough lessons teaching me that I can live through it– because I’m sure more will come– will be enough to begin to quell some of the attachment and fears of abandonment that I struggle with.
What’s funny is, I’m realizing as I write this that I know stopping therapy WOULD devastate me. I’ve shed tears every day since last Wednesday thinking about the possibility. I’m probably more afraid of doing so than is “normal”, if you could somehow pinpoint that. But in spite of that, I realize that now I wouldn’t entirely lose myself, and that my life would not be over. Maybe if I were being abandoned and had no control over the situation, I’d still feel those things. I’m not really sure. But I DID learn from last time, in the sense that I’m even consciously considering leaving someone I’m extremely attached to for my own well-being (or even being able to fathom my well-being as something besides being around whoever I’m attached to most at the time) instead of staying where I know that the most likely outcome is that I’ll be hurt without even allowing my doubts into my consciousness.
Something that makes it even harder is that– some people have bad therapists. Honest-to-god, careless, ill-intentioned, manipulative therapists. And that’s not my case because, while staying in therapy might not be good for me, I also can’t deny that she HAS helped me grow, and has done what she could to avoid hurting me and to make up for any instances where I pointed out that she had. I’m thinking I’m just reaching a point of diminishing returns, which isn’t too far off, and past that things could easily start deteriorating. Maybe I’m at that point right now. But as far as I can tell (and this is one instance where I am pretty sure it’s my gut telling me, rather than my mind rationalizing it) about the person behind the therapist mask, she IS good in the sense of being well-intentioned. And her mask is thinner than most–she HAS related to me with authentic parts of herself, which is part of why I’m hurting, and part of why I think therapy (at least the “deep” kind) is kind of… impossible to do well. Either you’re cold and impersonal, or you act like a person and can’t live up to what that brings up in someone (people want to relate to other people in a mutual way), because the framework doesn’t allow for it.
It’s actually pretty hard for me to accept complexities like that I suppose; that being around good people, who I really get along with and am on the same wavelength as, might in some contexts be bad for me. “Black and white thinking” is a “BPD symptom” and I’ve always been better than that at grey, but I’m spotting more and more the places where I’m not, and learning why grey can be so hard to accept. It’s easier to leave if you can vilify someone or make yourself hate them, because then there would be no choice left to make.
I can absolutely understand how learning from the pain you experienced in therapy taught you more about living than therapy itself, given all of that. I have to wonder if this isn’t the last stage of a healing cycle, and the real “test” of what this cycle has taught me about life since that breakup–since I believe in stuff like that and all 🙂
(I go into every comment convinced I’ll only write a couple paragraphs, and unfortunately, it seldom works that way, haha. My mind works a million miles an hour even when I’m not working through hard stuff. Thank you for reading.)
Foxes, many thoughts, any loud and clear ones.
Again, I take everything in therapy as a speculative theory, including the idea of re-parenting. When we go to therapy as adults, we no longer have a child’s small vulnerable size or a child’s forming brain. We likely have responsibilities majority of hours we’re not in therapy. This regressive play-acting was detrimental to my functioning outside the room.
Also, as cold and harsh as my parents were in many ways, they still ensured my survival, kept me fed, clothed, sheltered and educated. And they were REAL. We have common memories and people. For better or worse, they did know me when. A therapist putting on an act can’t possibly fool me she’s authentic.
The word –healing–often used in therapy, personally doesn’t settle for me. (Maybe again this is part of my rebellion against therapy.) Emotions, memory and responses are so different than a broken arm or a cavity. I’m nearly 65, and I’ve calmed and centered considerably from the timid young woman I was. Part is needing to placate others less, part of proving my own competence, part is better understanding other’s power displays. Rather than being more “vulnerable,” I needed to be sturdier and more effective, skills I had to accumulate in life, not therapy. Many people who knew me in real life gave me food for thought.
I’m a lay person, and I try to stay neutral whether anyone stays in therapy. There are many alternatives, for calm, for enrichment if that’s ultimately your choice. I’ll link to this blog, not as an “argument,” but rather another person’s thoughts.
Thank you for the excellent link– it parallels so many of my objections with therapy in a nice, concise way and I can wrap my mind around them better. I appreciate your neutrality as well, as I’m not asking for advice so much as verbally trying to organize what I’m thinking in a space where other people have similar perspectives (which I guess is part of what drew me to therapy in the first place, though I’m paying deeply for this particular sounding board, even with the physical expense being covered by insurance, which, thank god). It’s definitely something I have to sort out and come to terms with whatever I decide on my own.
I guess for me personally there is a lot I feel “wounded” by, still, and this sudden wave of cynicism I have concerning therapy hasn’t extended to the idea of emotional healing in general, though a lot of that looks like the effectiveness you describe, so maybe we don’t differ on that as much as our choice of words would imply 🙂 When I say vulnerability I don’t mean it in the sense of accepting a victim identity– For me it looks like something as simple as talking to someone where I’d otherwise be horribly anxious and avoid it, or being otherwise authentic and disagreeing with someone (my therapist, even). Being in partnership with someone. Generally doing “life stuff”. “Risking” fits my concept of it equally well, I think, but those things are risky because they expose vulnerable parts of oneself. Hiding away and agonizing over what’s holding you back at the expense of actually doing those things seems the opposite, since there’s no risk there; though for myself, understanding has been a path to push me in a certain direction. I don’t think I would have found this blog or any of the others that have helped me solidify my thinking without some degree of inclination towards self-observation and finding patterns of behaviour and thought (“why is this therapy feeling wrong even though everyone says it’s the Thing To Do?”), at the same time, I am often guilty of prioritizing the thinking over the actual doing-what-needs-to-be-done.
Reparenting is just an odd idea. I’ve had friends tell me about how healthy relationships have helped them grow and undo some of the damage a difficult upbringing has done, but these were relationships between two adults behaving like two adults, who were friends or partners, mutually supportive. Somehow therapy is the one thing exempt from that definition of “health” and now that I’ve put words to that thought it’s so strange to me how it’s accepted as a given, though I guess it shouldn’t be given the amount of weird stuff people have ascribed to over the course of history.
And come to think of it, my unhealthy relationships and their consequences have helped me grow, too.
I’m inclined to care about pretty much anyone, except for rare circumstances regarding those lack caring or have shown me none themselves, so I don’t have trouble believing that some therapists (definitely not all, though) do care– such that there is education for therapists on how to NOT to attach or care so much, to detach to avoid compassion fatigue. I think that alone is telling of how unnatural this setup is; humans instinctively connect and trying to control and moderate the exact right amount of caring is just weirdly *inhuman* and I don’t know how so many caring people DO become therapists in light of all this.
…though on second thought, it might not be bad to have had my own class for clients on how not to attach to a therapist.
Your next to last paragraph about therapists’ compassion fatigue and moderating just the right amount of caring is very telling for me. It’s yet another example that the normal “flow” between two people is distorted at every turn in therapy.
In contrast to what seems encouraged in therapy, I’ve worked hard since in being less open and private. I have a way of confessing everything and it’s a struggle to tell someone that parts of my life are none of their business. I think part of the privilege of adult-hood is that our rooms are no longer open to inspection and we’re not accountable to every adult in our path. Nothing seems to escape inspection in therapy, even one’s stream of consciousness. (And please tell me that everyone’s stream of consciousness is as crazy as mine.) My younger self had difficulty owning my reality and making decisions; I thought I needed that “strong” person to do that for me. I needed to function more as an adult; therapy took me backwards.
I found this paradigm shift very painful. Seems like you’re exploring many tough questions.
This was a good post, thanks for stopping by my blog and leading me back here. Therapy can work, I am a therapist and I see a wonderful therapist. But I’m a bit of a maverick or unorthodox in my style – so while I may be client-friendly, my stance makes me an outsider amongst other therapists who buy the DSM medical model. I try not to think about it. I’m so sorry you suffered what you did. It’s good you know what you would want if you ever decide to try it again.
Hi Patrice,
I just googled what the DSM medical model is, because I remember my ex-therapist asking me if I had looked up what my code stood for, the code that appeared on his invoices that I would submit for healthcare insurance. I was kind of shocked when he asked me this, especially since he asked with a twinkle in his eye, as if it were something I was curious about and burning to know or something. I thought to myself, “Why would I want to know what my label is? Why would I want to think of myself as a diagnosis?” He finally did give me the diagnosis and it has fucked with my head ever since.Btw, this was after 12 years of therapy. Odd.
This is the link to Patrice’s blog post:
http://patricemj.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/why-psychotherapy-doesnt-work-for-you/
Patrice, I’ve run across a few questioning writers. David Smail, a former therapist, who steers readers from therapy entirely, but writes a great deal how class and societal conditions contribute a to a personal make-up. There are some expensive-to-get books by British therapist Richard House that discuss the “regime of truth” and search for new paradigms.
But yes, I believe an important step is to stop pretending that art is medicine. And lowered expectations…absolutely yes. Had I started with that idea, perhaps the experience would have been more real and beneficial. Likewise, had I never been imbued with the idea the therapist was some sort of shaman.
On the social class you discuss: I actually grew up comfortably, but I saw that inside some of those large houses there still remained the panic and desperation of earlier generations in politically dangerous situations or struggling for survival.
I’m among some reading this blog who won’t return to therapy–“life” was a much better lesson book. At late middle age, I decided the last thing I needed was any institution hinted at my being one-down or parent metaphors. But I’m happy that professionals are reading and searching.
Just a follow up comment on the exchange with Patrice. I am happy too that professionals are searching and have started questioning at least some of the established standards of practice. I am seeing this more and more so it looks like things have shifted at least a little bit. I know from experience though that changes come to people very slow. They come to some faster than to others. While some are ready to question and re-evaluate the status-quo of the profession as a whole, some may only be ready just to start reflecting on some of the rules and ideas they are supposed to follow but are still not willing to let go of many others..But this is just one of life’s realities..
I can appreciate the difficulties of changing ideas and a culture. Anyone who has been through the training has a large investment in doing things a certain way, and cutting loose from that is difficult for many reasons.
I found even the basic “setting” of therapy, the counselor’s “authority,” the power differential, ultimately regressive even when the therapist was kind. No one recognized the too-cooperative client might not be a good thing.
I fully agree that the very foundation of therapy structure with its basic premises of what is healing and what isn’t needs to be questioned and explored in terms of its usefulness. I’ve noticed though that when I just simply pose a question about one therapy standard or another trying to invite a respectful and exploratory discussion, this often gets perceived as my attempt to annihilate everything that has existed in the system until today with all the good and the bad parts of it, which has never been my intend. For a long time I’ve been struggling to understand why it’s so difficult for many people, lay persons and professionals alike, to understand that life is complex and that every issue has many layers and dimensions to it that need to be brought to the surface and explored before the road to solving it can be seen. Sometimes just seeing certain realities becomes a solution in and of itself. But being able to see and accept reality for what it is requires a certain degree of detachment from our beliefs of what it should be that each one of us has. That’s not to say that we should suspend our core values because if we do that we’d loose our authenticity. We just simply need to ask ourselves if understanding the issue being discussed (whatever it may be) is more important to us than being stuck in a comfortable familiar self-righteous posture. I think, people on both sides, practitioners and consumers alike, could get stuck in their comfortable places, which is perfectly understandable from a human standpoint, but change by definition is uncomfortable, and if we want to see some positive changes in the system, each one of us who has concerns about its status quo and who wants changes, whether they are professional or not, has to be willing to get a little uncomfortable.
Marina, I’ve seen of what you describe in my internet discussions –professionals who seem downright afraid to question the long-held beliefs. Witness there’s so little written about harm in therapy, including listening to client voices.
I found many common practices utterly harmful. I’ve likewise read other accounts of interactions clients found extremely harmful but not legally unethical. I can look at many accepted ideas against a yardstick of common sense and think, “huh.”
I appreciate the obstacles facing those who challenge beliefs. I’ve seen professionals go after one another with nasty ad hominem attacks and “analysis.” It’s even more frustrating that therapy is supposed to be about truth-seeking.
Hi Disequilibrium1,
I wanted to thank you for your links to further information. It’s helpful to me, particularly the Richard House book, I found it for cheap online so am ordering it and can’t wait to read it. I found an interview of he did and was able to learn of his views through that and found them validating. I couldn’t find the David Small information, but tried.
Thanks again. Patrice
Patrice, I’ll be interested if House offers some useful ideas. I understand parts of his writings: that he listens carefully to client voices, summarizing what he considers the best of them and favors a reconstruction. From there, though, I wasn’t as clear about his proposals moving forward, but that wasn’t as relevant in my life. 🙂
One of House’s books is now electronic on Google books
http://books.google.com/books/about/Therapy_Beyond_Modernity.html?id=9L0qyJ0yzq0C
David is David Smail (like snail with an M) is a UK therapist-turned skeptic. He might be a painful read, for he’s definitely a critic and has taken heat for it. He feels t that the source of many human sorrows is the individual’s unyielding social environment and that therapy has limited applications. I think he’s thoughtful, though don’t know how relevant he’ll be for your explorations.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=David+Smail
My essay above was reprinted on Mentalhelpnet where it was linked to and discussed sympathetically by a group of Canadian therapists. I otherwise haven’t read their posts, but perhaps they’ll be of interest.
http://forum.psychlinks.ca/therapy-and-therapists/index3.html
Up the thread you’ll see a few other professionals who have “dropped in.”
Thanks again for listening to us.
Yes, Patrice, thank you for listening to us here and on your blog. I couldn’t get on your blog today for some reason, so I don’t know if my last response was published there, but in any case, I am sure you have read it and it’s all I need:)
As far as professionals attacking each other, I think it’s a tendency that all humans share, not only professionals. I do agree though that therapists’ attacks might get especially nasty because of their love for “analysis” :). It amazes me that people who talk so much about relational boundaries with clients and make all this “boundary” talk a major issue in therapy, have no clue about relational boundaries when they talk to each other! They have no idea that analyzing anyone who is not their client and who hasn’t given their permission to analyze them is an invasion of that person’s private space and is a major boundary crossing but they do it left and right with each other..
And, yes, disequilibrium1, just like you I found many established and widely accepted therapy methods utterly harmful, but when I was talking about getting detached from our views and beliefs, I meant that I could be perfectly content with anyone, whether a professional or a lay person, not agreeing with me and seeing things differently as long as they are willing to listen to me and to try to understand me, not shut me up whether implicitly or explicitly. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect everyone’s right to express it whether I like it or not. But discussing any controversial topic of any kind whether it’s therapy or conflict in the Middle East or pro-life/pro-choice controversy only makes sense when both sides despite of all disagreements genuinely try to understand each other. Otherwise their “discussion” is nothing but an exchange of verbal punches or hidden pokes that are usually done in a “civil” way with a “nice” face so no one could see what I am really doing. These verbal fights might give one an immediate relief, but it doesn’t serve any long-term constructive purpose, it doesn’t convince anyone and it doesn’t solve anything. I might get feisty when I have to withstand an attack, but after I defend myself I usually leave that situation entirely as it’s clear to me that the other party is not interested in having a mindful and meaningful conversation.
We all tend to operate in a reactive rather than reflective mode, and I think we all need to be mindful of that if we really want our discussions to be constructive and to bring about some positive changes.
Marina, you raise some very good points. I agee that being reactive is a human tendency, and therapists have been trained with some “weapons” the average person doesn’t necessarily possess. I’ve been guilty myself of analyzing behavior that annoyed me as in “she flips between being a bully and playing victim,” and far from stoppiing the person in her tracks, it just adds fuel to the fire.
I enjoyed Pyschotherapy: The Hazardous Cure by Dorothy Tennov, copyright 1975, which was intertwined with the emerging feminist current at its writing. She argues against pscychodynamic explorations and toward more immediate behavioral approach. One of the book’s quotes from Meiitta Schmideberg: “Analysts of all countries tend to deprecate the opponent’s point of view as ‘not really analytic’ or accuse him of ‘not having been analyzed deeply enough’ or of ‘suffering from resistance.’ Such arguments are, or course unanswerable.”
Just found it on Amazon. Thanks. I’ll look into it.
I’ll link to Tennov’s book, which unlike those UK textbooks, is easy-to-find and very inexpensive. A well-written book that questions many firmly-held “truths,” Though its discussion of women was a product of its time, I think much still applies.http://www.amazon.com/Psychotherapy-Hazardous-Cure-Dorothy-Tennov/dp/0385116578/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1334006062&sr=8-3
Yep, that’s the one I found! Thanks again!
More on the subject of love–I love this quote from David Smail: “I would certainly not want to argue that people cannot be transformed by love (though neither am I sure that they can), but I would, without claiming it to be impossible, want to urge caution over extending such a possibility to therapeutic ‘love’, which is but a pale imitation of the kind of committed love which may transform, and, coming too little and often too late in the client’s life, may simply prove addictive.”
http://www.davidsmail.info/ethcon.htm
I also ran across this article and discussion, with over 500 comments. I won’t say I read them all, but some were OK with the event, more seemed to find love in therapy particularly hellish. While therapists consider it therapeutic, I don’t know how it differs from any other crush except it’s the result of the stagecraft of therapy, sort of like falling in love with an onstage rock star, but the stage in this case is within the confines of an office.
http://psychcentral.com/blog/discuss/2084/page/11/#comments
Thanks for the links. Since this is such a pain triggering issue for me, I will read the articles and the comments slowly. I’ve noticed that with all written material on this subject I have to read a little, take a break, let it digest and settle and then read another portion..I am mostly triggered by the polarized visions of this whole therapy subject that people have and many people’s inability to see and appreciate the bigger picture that includes many different dimensions.
As far as “love” in therapy, I know by now that it is a toxic and destructive illusion that people take for a real thing because they are fooled by their therapists and also because people usually love illusions more than reality. I actually think that this kind of “love” is much more dangerous than a crash on a rock star. We don’t have a relationship with that rock star that we have a crash on and he or she can’t exploit our feelings since they haven’t even met us. Besides, when a teenager has a crash on their favorite celebrity, I don’t see it as necessarily pathological unless this disturbs their daily life. We all havel had our “heroes” when we were young, this is just a stage in our human development that passes with age (hopefully!). Therapist is someone we open up to while he is not required to do the same thing. We need his help while he doesn’t need ours. So, we are vulnerable in the relationship and he is not which gives him a tremendous power to influence us, which he usually does and this is where the potential for abuse resides.
I mentioned the rock star crush because I don’t think there’s anything transforming about it. I eventually realize my fantasy won’t come true and abandon it, but it’s not a spiritual or psychological experience that bestows health or freedom from the next delusion.
I agree that “love” in therapy much more dangerous than a crush on a rock star or even an unrequited love in our everyday lives. The therapist performs the role of a caring person, so there’s great confusion just how real this bond is. The rock star or the unrequited love, after all, give us authentic feedback–not any or much encouragement– while the therapist continues his intense focus and interaction with us.
The “theory” as I understand it, is the “transference” is supposed to the “worked through” as a means to a mature, mutual relationship.
“Then, having understood the profound difference between desire and love, and having worked through the unconscious illusions (i.e., psychological defenses) behind your intense desire for one person, you can proceed to offer genuine love to everyone.”
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/erotic_transference.htm
I’ve read therapists on the web extolling the virtues of dependency, idealization and childlike activations, implying these reactions are some enchanted, fairy-tale pathway toward emotional health. I don’t agree that going backwards brings us forward. This certainly wasn’t my experience.
I didn’t say that falling in love with a rock star is a transforming experience. I said that it is just a normal developmental experience that each one of us had at some point in our lives, usually when we were young, and then we outgrew it as we matured.
With therapy, yes, the premise that transference can be “worked though” in the way that psychoanalytic theory prescribes is fundamentally false and is a dangerous illusion that does much damage to clients and also doesn’t serve practitioners well.
Disequilibrium1, I had very similar experience in my first therapy as you had and my reaction to it was also similar to yours, so I am not arguing your take on it. I never have. You seem to repeat your point over and over again as if I am arguing with you but I am not. I may just see some other dimensions of this issue that you might have never thought of, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t see what you see. If I try to bring attention to A, B and C elements of one situation, that doesn’t mean that I am rejecting or disagreeing with D, E and F. In my experience, every life situation has many elements to it that are connected with each other and influence each other all the time, and so one single element cannot be taken outside of the context,in which it exists and understood on its own without its relationships with all other elements. Therapy is not an exemption and what applies to life in general also applies to therapy as it is just a part of life, nothing more and nothing less than that.
Marina, I apologize if I appeared to disagree in any way. In fact I was agreeing with you, and if I appeared argumentative, it was against the articles we’ve posted and conventional wisdom held by therapists. My posts were attempts to add my thoughts to yours.
I agree completely that therapy is not an “exemption,” and what applies to life applies to therapy. That’s exactly the way I see it. I also experienced that transference was not “worked through.” It didn’t happen in my life or therapy. AND when therapy fostered my regression, I worked through nothing, so therapy only left me with pain and bad emotional habits.
I brought up the rock star crush as a real life example. Crushes were not “transforming” in my life, and I don’t believe anything magic happens in therapy to make them so. Furthermore I feel that dependency, idealizing or regression aren’t healthy or transforming either as some therapists believe. Therapy only led me into a one-way tunnel. And there I remained after therapy with new delusions and regression.
I did analysis for close to two years. Though my therapist said some wise things, analysis itself was an exercise in complete madness. I went into what I now understand as meditation psychosis–things were heightened like a bad LSD trip. I was weird and new agey, and I lost a few good friends because I was so nutty. (A Jungian analysand added to the delusions!) Friends eventually convinced me my mind was playing tricks on me and I returned to earth. This experience wasn’t “transforming” either.
If there are any readers from the UK, there is a call for participants in a research study about harmful therapy.
http://www.psychforums.com/surveys-studies/topic86201.html#p761268
I have followed a great deal of this discussion with interest. I am currently a student on a counselling course. The attitude of the tutors leaves a lot to be desired. I have also had a bad experience with a counsellor – a lot of what has been written about on here resonates with me. Thankfully, I ‘escaped’ after about eight sessions as it all felt so wrong. Now I reflect back on the sessions, I nearly always left feeling confused, doubting my perceptions and generally feeling ‘belittled’. Once the initial ‘honeymoon’ phase was over, she became increasingly confrontational, almost ‘attacking’ in her style. She too would ask questions that were impossible to answer and would also change the subject quickly, leaving me feeling ‘fragmented’. In the end I took a month long break. I was going to go back for a final session and let her know why I wanted to stop, but she did a last minute cancellation on me, changing her story as she did so which felt like (yet another) power game so I just told her I wasn’t coming back. I have absolutely no regrets, I think she would have continued to undermine me. She knew what my vulnerabilities were and was more than happy to play a cat and mouse game with them. Quite a few times I saw her literally smirking and she would make comments (in a nasty patronising voice) like ‘ohhhh – listen to youuuu! – but without any further elaboration.
God, what a cow!
jorobs, You were insightful to see the situation for what it was, and exit quickly. Many of us learned too late that an individual counselor might be no more evolved than the schoolyard bully. The more some of us feel we “need the therapist” or believe a performance that the therapist is safe, the more difficult and damaging the separate can be.
You might be interested in the October 5, 2011 link to a book on power games in psychotherapy training and the October 9, 2011 link to an article discussing it. Best to you.
Thank you for your comments – I did look at that link and very helpful it was too. I suppose the message that comes out of all this is one of ‘buyer beware!’. It holds in other fields of life, so no reason why it would not hold in this particularly complex field. I suppose, with the benefit of hindsight, I went into this with a great deal of naivety – isn’t it amazing how hope really does triumph over experience? I think with my experience the writing was on the wall from the very first session. When I outlined my reasons for going into therapy (a bullying type of situation at work) her very first question to me was: ‘How do you know I won’t do the same?’
Now, it may be that there is some merit in that type of challenge further down the line when a trusting and supportive relationship has been established (with emphasis on ‘may be’). But to be so directly confrontational in the very first instance when I had made it clear that the workplace bullying had lead to a breakdown is just plain – vicious. I suppose at the time I was unable to accept the implications of such a provocative question so found myself fudging an answer to the question along the lines of ‘ethical guidelines’. However, again on refelction, surely it was not my role to point out to her that as a member of a professional body she is bound by ethics?!
Having reflected on the later sessions, her provocative stance continued and had the effect of undermining my perceptions. The few times I came up with assertive statements, she would challenge them, as though they held no validity. It did feel like ‘crazy making’. She seemed quite keen to establish what my value system was and then do her best to attack it. Instinctively, I found myself withholding any personal details about my children, for instance, as I intuitively felt that she was dying to ‘lay the boot in’ with regards to my parenting. I also felt she had already made up her mind about the nature of my relationship with my partner – yet she knew next to nothing about it.
Again, it may well be that there were and are aspects of my relationship with my partner and children that could be explored but at that particular time they were not what were causing my difficulties. She seemed very keen for me to to fully ‘own’ my part in how I had ‘co-created’ this stressful workplace bullying situation. Believe me, it was something that I had spent months if not years exploring. The reality was that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time – there was a huge power imbalance and I didn’t stand a chance against someone who I (and others) would describe as a sociopath. The only way I could have avoided the (sociopath) situation was not to be there in the first place – it was the equivalent of being held at gun-point in a dark alley. The counsellor did not seem to be able to comprehend this and wanted me to ‘take ownership’ and accept responsibility for my part in this. When you are mugged in a dark alley, the only real ownership you can take is that you shouldn’t have gone down the alley in the first place!
What might have been helpful, for instance, would have been to explore ways of asserting myself with (sociopathic) authority figures. However, as anyone who has ever encountered this type of personality disorder is aware, these are incredibly difficult situations to deal with and often the only way to deal with them is to leave the toxic person/environment – which is what I did. Why not just accept my explanation at face value, at least in the first instance, and explore what other approaches I might have been able to take? In the longer term, it may be there are aspects of my personality/behaviour that could have made me vulnerable to this type of person but, again, that would be something to explore further down the line within a safe therapeutic relationship. However, her mind was made up by session two when she nonchalently observed: ‘You are a bit of a victim!’
Gee – thanks! That’s me nicely labelled and thrown down the garbage shoot then! I suppose after that, having confidently made her diagnosis, she then proceeded to ‘play devil’s advocate’ and provoke her ‘victim’! What arrogance.
I can only draw the conclusion that the counsellor I saw was using the sessions with me to pursue her own agenda, using me as the ‘whipping boy’. You know what – I can get that kind of aggrevation for free in a pub brawl so why pay £60 for it?
‘How do you know I won’t do the same?’ Wow, that’s bold! She gave you a gift by letting you know upfront who she was.
It’s been my observation over the years that, for the most part, the people who come out of truly abusive families are either trained abusers or trained victims. They both go on – in their own ways – to bend society into believing the false (and harmful) notion that “There is good in everyone. If someone is being unkind to you it’s because they are victims, and the solution is to be kinder to them.” That way the abusers can create a greater pool of compliant victims by shaming ‘normal’ people into believing this, and thus prevent them from developing skills to detect and defend against predatory people (skills which include – as you pointed out – getting away from them).
It’s another observation that the majority of people who go into the mental ‘health’ profession come from either that pool of abusive families, or the neighbouring pool of dysfunctional families. Some are attracted to the profession as a way of working out their own stuff. But a good number of the trained abusers also go into the mental health profession, mainly because it has a steady supply of vulnerable people (after all, why else would someone go into therapy?). They are the ones who few authors write about, the ones who get their jollies from f***ing with people’s heads.
It suspect that your ‘therapist’ comes from the latter category. I wouldn’t be surprised if she herself is somewhere on the psychopathic spectrum. In that case, there is no point discussing professional ethics, best practice, treatment modalities, etc.., cause that’s not what she’s there for. She’s there to manufacture victims, at best.
I don’t know if your previous therapist was a parent, but if not I imagine she’s using her practice to produce the next generation of victims and abusers. Good for you that you had the presence of mind to escape.
Not sure if my other (rather long) reply was successful. However, thanks for your comments. I would urge anyone seeking therapy to go with their instincts – it is not supposed to be a boot camp or training session for the SAS. I think the problem is that many people seeking therapy are already beating themselves up quite badly and have probably taken on a rather masochistic attitude of ‘it must get worse before it gets better/no pain – no gain’. To my mind, that is not what therapy is about. Surely the goal is to help a person better understand themselves? Once a person has gained increased self-awareness then they can better understand how and why they are where they are. Only then can they start exploring ways of behaving differently or making changes or whatever. It seems to me that there are just too many therapists out there with massive agendas which don’t have much to do with helping the client but more to do with control/money/power/psychological manipulation etc.
Birdfeeder – just read your response – yes, I think you are spot on – I think she is somewhere on the psychopathic spectrum and (thankfully) childless.
In my (ahem) worldview 🙂 we all have pockets of fear and irrationality, including therapists, and we all have times that our irrational side overtakes us. I assume the same applies to most childhoods–that most of us have times when we’re misunderstood, mistreated, isolated and have our abilities stifled rather than nurtured. And wee can always look around and find others whose lives appear easier and luckier than ours.
In other words, I think vulnerability, pain, failure and deficiency are part of being human, and given the right circumstance, someone else can stoke or even exploit this.
So many therapists market themselves implying we ought drop all these normal human problems at their doorsteps. I do believe that we can grow as people and self-sabotage less (I’m agnostic how much therapy can help with that) but life will always present pain, failure and problems, both for clients and therapists. I think it would be so much “healthier” if therapists presented themselves and their process more realistically.
Jorobs, I join you in taking issue with the “‘it must get worse before it gets better” precept. Dwelling in MY pain gave me no insight or transcendence–only the bad habit of dwelling in more pain. It not only taught a depression habit, but my “self-pity” made me dreary company. Don’t get me started on my analysis when I thought everything was magical.
I so strongly disagree that the “confrontational” approach on the theory it is healing. It sounds like a sick abusive spouse….knocking em around makes em feel better. I don’t think so. I’ve heard consumers describe Gestalt therapy particularly in these terms.
Jorobs, I know savvy sophisticated people faced with workplace bullies, and it’s always a challenge to figure a strategy. I think that those people are often at jobs. Sometimes they can be contained somewhat, sometimes not. There are books devoted to this topic. When I was more *naive* I asked two therapists about a boss who sexually harassed all the women. One said “Is he so bad; he hired YOU.” Another said, “Oh, he has boundary disturbances.” What I needed was advice I eventually got from a friend “No one has to put up with this.” Common sense–so easily missed in therapy.
I do think therapists well-meaning, but their interpretations can muddy the situation instead of help. They’re not in our skins or even first-hand witnesses to anything in our lives. They haven’t lived with our problems. It’s really up to us to find the answers. Like you said, “buyer beware.”
It’s interesting that you mention Gestalt as the counsellor I saw had been trained in Gestalt. In the past I think it was a particularly confrontational approach but I think there are practitioners who are incorporating some aspects of the approach into a much less abrasive style of therapy. However, old habits die hard. Fritz Perls who founded Gestalt was a very nasty piece of work so it is quite curious that he became so famous. If you look at the Gloria tapes (which are still pretty much part of the curriculum for trainee counsellors/analysists) you can see his style in action – confrontational, abrasive. I do not think he succeeds in helping her at all but I don’t think that was his objective – I think he wanted a good fight and he admits as much during the session! (he actually says: but we had a good fight didn’t we!’)
I suppose if you consider his approach in the context of the times (fifties and sixties) it makes a bit more sense as he was attempting to cut through all the social niceties that governed behaviour. But society has changed so dramatically since then that watching him in action now he just looks like a screwed-up dirty old man. Extraordinary that he became something of a guru as his personal value system was highly dubious (totally neglectful father, horrible to his wife) . But I think Gestalt was a bit of a cult – it emerged from the 60s human consciousness movements and in fact was one of the inspirations behind NLP, One of the guys who founded NLPhas a pretty shady past too but I guess that is often the case with cults.
Talking of cults, I think that therapy is a bit of a cult too – there is this mystique and intellectualism surrounding it but really if you look at its roots there is no real science behind it. Freud, Klein etc – all theories but no real proof that they actually work more than a placebo – or more than talking to your grandma/milkman/cat/goldfish etc.
There are so many cults out there you can’t even avoid them – religion, medicine, education, to name but a few. I am finding a lot of parallels between the counsellor training and other training I have done in the past. It’s the power and control stuff – I guess people who want power and control are attracted to institutions (have a look at at the bullyonline website to see how common bullying is in institutions like education, health, the so-called ‘caring professions etc.) As birdfeeder wrote, the caring professions are great for a continuing supply of fresh victims!
BUYER BEWARE! Think that will be my new mantra. Or maybe – don’t be naive, how to spot a psychopath.
This is one of the best pieces I have read about being ambushed by misguided cult leaders – very funny and makes me want to take up meditation.
Sadistic Teachers: http://www.lorinroche.com/dangers/dangers/sadism.html
Great article! Thank you for that link!
And as sadism was the title of that piece, now I think about it there was more than a whiff of S and M in my counsellor’s approach (the sniggering reactions, her bringing up the subject of sex when I had not mentioned it and then more sniggering – perhaps she was a pervert :).
Reading that piece about sadistic teachers again makes me wonder about therapists and their own sexual agendas. Although they are not supposed to have sex with their patients the whole issue of sex cannot just be dumped outside the front door so it is somewhere swirling around in the therapy room. A lot of the early therapists were at it with their clients – Freud for instance. Fritz Perls was incredibly promiscuous.
Thank you for starting this blog – I have found it fascinating!
I read the Roche piece and was delighted he was able to “see through” those teachers’ take-down so quickly. This no doubt was hard-earned knowledge.
Yeah, wholesale spiritual systems, the self-improvement industry and psychotherapy seem related franchises, though the latter has the legitimization of credentials –in the US anyway– and the endorsement of the medical community. (Let’s see, how many people did I offend in that sentence.:-)).
I’ve found a huge parallel between my therapy experience and cult conditioning.
A few others here and I participated in a thread on another site which began as a discussion of harmful therapy. Eventually therapists jumped in to oppose our criticisms, and it has been fascinating to see their strategies. The first was an outright scold about is being disgruntled and complainers, as if we were the unhappy kids at summer camp. Later came the smug “it only works if you want to change” and “you have to do the work.” Finally a couple of the therapists sidetracked our attempts to discuss issues by putting words in our mouths, mischaracterizing questions and labeling us: ie.”seeing conspiracy,” “black and white thinking.” They brushed aside our discussion of authoritarianism by being authoritarian. I can speculate they also use these tactics to subjugate their unfortunate clients.
Client accounts of therapists who seduced them have been truly nightmarish. And yes, there’s a strong sadistic component to many of the stories, including Grace Towers’ Fish in a Barrel.
Blogger http://therapyisacon.wordpress.com/author/therapyisacon/
has a detailed account of her attempts to file a grievance of a Gestalt-oriented counselor. It’s revealing that psychotherapy seems so ill-defined that accreditation bodies (in the US) welcome the most outrageous methodologies under their tents.
PS. I took a writing seminar about 1985 with a respectful guest teacher at Naropa which was fine. However I suffered a subtly sadistic, manipulative wanna-be therapist writing teacher –from Esalen Institute–at the NY Open Center.
I just want to use this web space to post my personal experience now having been away from therapy for 6 months. I feel very sad. I still feel duped and let down and I also feel angry, but mostly very sad. I was in a Gestalt theory inspired therapy for 16 years and I am still processing the growing awareness of bullsh*t.and blindness inherent in the practice of Gestalt. Thanks for listening. I’m really enjoying these posts by very astute, intelligent people.
Ironic how the word “awareness”, a buzzword for Gestalt practitioners, doesn’t lead to an awareness of the bs being dished out. 😉
NYC-I’m sorry you have to deal with this passage. I was absolutely paralyzed six months after bad therapy, and from this distance, it seems like you’re extremely astute in untangling the deceptions you suffered.
If it’s any compensation, you’re on a far faster track than me. It’s taken me a couple of decades to move from intimidated> investigative>angry>guilty>sad >more guilty and finally >duped/suckered. I still have the resist the depression habits that therapy installed or the notion that I might provoke anyone else in the therapy community to explore questions we have about harmful therapy. (To the therapists who do explore them–thank you.)
I do feel my experience has given me some unusual equipment to recognize other charlatans on one hand, and maybe even have compassion for human weaknesses. Therapy turned out to be a “growth” experience, only the opposite of the way the therapists promised.
I too appreciate this discussion. You guys are a formidable, thoughtful, articulate community of skeptics. 🙂
Gestalt therapy is on Lilienfeld’s list of “Psychological Treatments that Cause Harm.”
Link to pdf article: http://tinyurl.com/cf7lsx3
Personally I find this list is only a start.
An interesting article. There has been criticism of Gestalt in the past and I think the type of therapy as practised by Fritz Perls and his disciples had the potential to be extremely harmful. I think there are some valuable theories and methods but they need to be employed in very safe hands. And thereby lies the crux of the problem, if you ask me. I would agree with the author of the article (Jeffrey Schaler) below who states that the most important qualities of a therapist are good charater and emotional stability.
http://www.schaler.net/fifth/badtherapy.html
This is what worries me about the training providers – I do not think they are discriminating enough about the students that they accept on the courses. Of the students on the course I am doing there is not a single one I would employ as my therapist. None of them is a sociopath or a psychopath/narcissist (as far as I can tell – not that I am an expert!) but they are all still very much struggling with their own issues. No doubt I am too, but I realise that my background is far less traumatic. A few of them have had very traumatic childhoods to the extent that I think they find it difficult to recognise less overtly abusive behaviour. This is not intended in any way to be critical or judgemental but I sometimes think they lack the type of intuition and insight into human behaviour that someone less emotionally scarred would have refined over the years.
There is also a curiously deferential attitude by most of the students towards the course leaders which in my opinion is not deserved. I have been quite shocked by their lack of respect and empathy towards students and there is definitely an attitude of ‘them and us’ which is not particularly conducive to learning or developing. I question their value system, or lack of it. They seem more interested in gaining a sort of brutish power over the students and manipulating some fairly base emotions than actually facilitating healthy learning. The few times I have remonstrated I have been very firmly put in my place and I know that at least one of the leaders resorts to verbal intimidation tactics (behind closed doors) when a student shows too much spirit of independence. While we all know this has happened, what is shocking is that he is refusing to allow students to record any one to one sessions with him! So much for empathy, respect, accountability and all those other rather important qualities.
This is a good critique of Fritz Perl’s ‘interview’ of Gloria in which the author demonstrates that Perls fails to achieve what he purported to set out to do (although, in my opinion, he did achieve his unstated goal which was to control, dominate and belittle her.)
Click to access humanismo_1.pdf
Your posts about Gestalt, particularly the elephant ride, paint it as a chamber of horrors. This video is of institute teacher Joseph Zinker, training a new generation of therapists to evoke a client’s fear and nervousness.
Your observations of your training course must indeed be eye-opening. How can anyone certify anyone else as emotionally fit, when we all have our fears, blind spots and deficiencies?
It’s highly damaging when one gets entangled with an outrageously unstable therapist. But even when therapy is superficially “benevolent,” I found most therapy imparts of a message of powerless client at the knee of the guru, beseeching wisdom in eyedropper dosages. So while the therapist might be seemingly “supportive,” the here-and-now dynamic often is subordinating.
In any event, I didn’t find the laboratory room of therapy in any way accelerating the acquisition of life wisdom.
Thank you for your response. I suppose I would equate some kind of emotional fitness with – the therapist putting the emotional needs of the client above his or her own needs or agenda. Yes – I totally agree that each person has their own vulnerabilies – but perhaps that could be celebrtated (in or out of a therapeutic relationship). Thank you for including that clip from Zinker – I had always thought he was one of the more benevolent gestalt therapists but from what I see in that clip he was just another dirty old man trying to get it on with (far too obliging) female victms.
Maybe that interpretation was a bit harsh – but I think he did try to disarm the woman with an approach which was definitely crossing boundaries. She as the eager ‘student’ wanted to please him so in a way it was like a microcosm of what could happen in a therapy session.
What I have a problem with, is adopting this kind of approach WITHOUT fully explaining exactly what is being done and why and with the full permisssion of the client.
So, for instance, with a client who has difficulty with boundaries, the therapist could explore this and then, with full permission and having properly explaned what was going on, could try out an experiment in which the client was ‘allowed’ to tell the therapist to ‘fuck off’ or whatever. In safe hands, I think that could be beneficial.
Looking at what happened in that clip, Zinker could have said to her: ‘I notice that you are being quite aquiescent’ or something like that. ‘Are you trying not to offend me?’ To my mind that could be quite helpful as it would explore her attitude towards power/gender/age/authority figures etc. Obviously there was a huge power imbalance going on there and he could have explored all that. Instead, I think he was enjoying being the wise guru in front of an adoring audience – his ego seemed very much on display there and there were some sexual politics going on which again I think could have been explored if his ego would have let him.
What seems to happen, and what happened to me when I saw a Gestalt therapist, is that they do the experiments, without explainiing what they are doing to the client. To my mind that is unethical. The therapist I saw played a huge amount of games with me but thankfully I saw through her quite quickly – guess she wasn’t a skilled enough predator!
I think a lot of people (myself included) have a very complex relationship with authority figures (which I imagine goes back to their relationship with their parents) and so the relationship with the therapist will in many respects be an indication of their attitude towards authority.
In our society generally we seem to be in awe of people with professional qualifications, thinking they can ‘fix’ us when in reality they are just – people, with lots of frailities etc. I think what is the key, though, is good will, a conscience, a genuine desire to help. Carl Rogers is an example of this, in my opinion. If you read his books, he seems genuinely to want to heal people and it’s not all about ego, power and domination. I think he was a real inspiration.
So – on reflection – yes, you are right – he is demonstrating to the student how to evoke a feeling of discomfort in the client but without also demonstraing how to explain to the client that this is an experiment designed to help her react and respond in a healthy way when someone crosses a boundary.
Guess they don’t want to give away all the tricks for free – after all people spend a lot of money on those training courses……..
I have no first-hand experience with Gestalt therapy. But conversations with a few ex-clients have been about therapists who were consistently hostile, confrontational and undermining.
I’ll confess to being intimidated as well by authority figures the period I was in therapy. Most of us were conditioned to that from birth and through school. However, this intimidation was collaborated by the therapists themselves pretending some knowledge of life, particularly another person’s. They also control the conversation and narrative and withhold pertinent information.
I had many reactions to the Zinker clip above. He did impressed me too as posing as a guru. That he gave his students a strategy for ALL clients forward–don’t back off–seemed foolish to me. I was in group therapy briefly with a guy so socially intimidated he couldn’t get his chin off his chest. Zinker would have his students pummel the guy. Conversely, a pugnacious client might feed on the brawl without understanding the message.
And to actually instill “fear and nervousness” in clients–without telling them the purpose of the strategy, seems like taking the exercise far off track.
Funny thing about boundaries. If start we telling everyone to Eff! -off, we’re going to lose jobs and get thrown out of stores. In fact, I don’t think it necessarily wise to “defend” boundaries in every instance. Sometime it’s better to swallow our pride in service of larger goal. Often times we’re taking a huge risks changing boundaries. Sometimes force might be more effective, sometimes tact. We often can’t predict the outcome the creating limits with someone else. A therapist has no way of knowing this. Awareness of boundaries is at most a starting place, and I think it a mistake to teach boundary defense as a mandate.
The class itself was curious in other ways. Students on the floor. I personally found his profanity presumptuous for a group of people. Zinker is in other videos, sounding like quite the authority on human change. He’s a hypnotist. People can change in a few minute. If you click the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XQP-Z1WpVI Ugh.
Here’s a slew of training videos, should you have the stomach for it. http://www.youtube.com/user/Lifematrex
I hear you – or rather I read you! I agree that the whole boundary thing is VERY complicated but, to my mind, it does lie at the heart of some of the problems inherent in human relationships. I am not suggesting for one minute that telling someone to f—off is an effective strategy – on the contrary. But, I suppose what was being demonstrated in that clip was that Zinker had pushed a boundary – a sexual /physical boundary as what he was saying to the female student was provocative, suggestive and also did not respect her physical boundaries.
There are some people, in that type of situation (men or women) who would remonstrate quite vocally. So a therapist can tell, quite early on, with a few little ‘boundary violations’ what a client might or might not put up with. My personal view is that if someone is violating my personal boundaries – man or woman it doesn’t matter – in a way that feels demeaning or belittling or disrespectful then – I will not tolerate it. I won’t be aggressive about though.
I am not sure about the ‘swallowing pride’ thing – that is different to defending your boundaries. Telling another person what you may or may not put up with is not to do with pride, necessarily. Also the ‘wider goal’ – again I really do understand where you are coming from here because I am a person who will constantly be considering my children, partner, siblings, family, peers, neighbours while completely forgetting that I exist at all!
My view is that one should always defend one’s own personal boundaries – no-one else will do it for you . But, having said that, I am also acutely aware of other people around me and how my behaviour/actions might impact on them. I would always feel bad if they way that I had behaved or acted had impacted negatively on someone. It would never have been my intention but we can alll make mistakes.
Once again, thank you so much for providing this forum – an amazing resource. (Just so you know, I have incredilby mixed feelings towards the training insitute I am with – there is so much that feels wrong to me….)
Zinker introduced the F***-off suggestion, telling the student that he could tell him that. I think many students will give teachers a great deal of leeway entering their personal and psychological spaces, because of long conditioning. Teachers are closely related to parents, who have “rights” to be in our spaces.
I agree that boundaries have very large bearing in our lives, and as we talk about them, we’re no doubt referring back to our own personal examples.I think each “boundary crossing” presents a choice of how we might respond, and found sometimes it’s best only to draw the boundary in my own mind, and not interact with the person.
One time, long story, I literally “needed” the assistance of a particular neighbor in helping a dear friend. The neighbor regularly took digs at me. I said something once or twice, and succeeded better by befriending her, so we developed an affection for one another.
I’m frequently involved in short-term creative projects. If I have one of those impossible collaborators, sometimes I have to choose between tolerating an unpleasant situation short term, or saying something and risk endangering the project. I’ve arrived at different solutions. Boundary setting can be risk-taking and a few times I have said something, and even at my most tactful I’ve miscalculated–badly.
Drawing boundaries with co-workers, bosses, etc. can be a calculated risk sometimes has to be done after considering all the options. Or say there’s an enraged large, drunk man in a business establishment, who’s annoying us, but we’re going to leave in a minute. Or in a different circumstance, how do we handle an otherwise a dear friend who’s chronically late? I find it always a calculation to decide what to tolerate, what to overlook. If I recall under the influence of therapy I’ve dropped “imperfect” friends that I’ve later regretted.
I’ve found “needing to win” creates its own gremlins, and I best consider all options. If can get too crazy about boundaries, trying to control everything. That said, I do stand up when needed.
Thanks for your kind words about this blog. Every good wish in finding your own truths in your training.
“I think many students will give teachers a great deal of leeway entering their personal and psychological spaces, because of long conditioning. Teachers are closely related to parents, who have “rights” to be in our spaces.”
How very perceptive of you…..this is precisely the situation I am struggling with on the course that I am doing – a lot!
Some of the students have had such terrible early life experiences in terms of unpredictable (and worse) parenting that I sometimes think they do not have sufficient resources to spot when authority figures are being manipulative and not working in their best interests.
My parents weren’t perfect (who is?) but the more I hear of others experiences, the more they are starting to look like saints!
The Zinker clip is actually highly instructive. I think it speaks volumes about how the younger, female student allows the older male guru type figure to enter into her personal boundary space, in a quite provocative way. She fudges her words in order not to confront him or maybe ‘hurt his feeling’ or not challenge his authority or….something….again, to my mind there are sexual and authoritarian politics going on here and it would have been very interesting to have explored that with all the students.
Notice how the student avoids any direct challenge but states: ‘you are very close…’ Her choice of words, and the manner in which she says them, speak volumes – in their own way. He then acknowledges that he has crossed a boundary with her by saying to her: ‘you could tell me to fuck off’. Again, this is highly provocative and confrontational – rather than allowing her to tell him how she is feeling about his having crossed into her personal boundary space, he suggests to her that she could swear at him.
Most people in that type of situation would be feeling uncomfortable, at best, but rather than going with ‘her process’ and exploring her feelings he further manipulates the situation by suggesting a fairly extreme response – one that would in all probability cause the student more stress. In general, telling your course tutor to ‘fuck off’ is not a good career move. Telling authority figures in general to ‘fuck off’ can be a dangerous move and of course Zinker was playing with all this. It would have been so much more instructive if he had allowed the students a full discussion around all these issues (maybe he did later….).
This is all highly relevant to the counselling relationship as the counsellor is the ‘authority figure’ and the client will have his or her own thoughts and behaviours around authority that will be very much part of the process.
That is why I believe it is so important for the counsellor to be someone who is fundamentally a ‘caring’ person and geniunely wants to help people (eg: Carl Rogers). I do believe there must be many counsellors who are like that. However, unfortunately, the ‘caring’ industries will also attract the type of person who, while purporting to ‘care’ are actually pursuing their other, somewhat darker, agendas.
The Roche article explains this quite well – he acknowledges that a lot of cults (and I do think psychotherapy is a bit of a cult, in its own way) are not essentially malevolent but they are often to do with money, power, ego and sex, as are many things! When it gets a bit darker is when you have someone with a personality disorder like a sociopath or narcissist or psychopath or whatever running the show. There are quite a few around – in medicine, the law, education, running corporations. There must be a few in psychotherapy too. Anywhere where people may be slightly vulnerable and looking for help and support. That is what I find worrying. Good people do not want to believe that someone might be so malevolent so they tend to go undetected for a surprisingly long time. Plus, as posters on here have found, it is incredibly difficult to go through the complaints systems when you are in a vulnerable place and the systems are often heavily rigged in favour of the ‘institution’.
Just my two cents: therapists can do horrible things (like Mr. Zinker) in an effort to take care of their own unfulfilled childhood needs. And patients can do the same by believing in the illusion of the healer parent therapist.It is an ultimately destructive relationship where both parties collude unconsciously to take care of needs whose end date has expired.
I’ve found that the person that can help me most is me. I know my history, my childhood, and I’m still making connections between what happened to me and how it has affected me as an adult. These are very real things. What isn’t real is this supposed concern and help that therapists profess to give. Mr Zinker is simply a power hungry man who gets his jollies by “changing” others. There is no regard whatsoever for the individual’s truth and history. I don’t call this therapy. I call it discipleship and subjugation of the individual cloaked in the disguise of “liberation”.
1234nyc, I see the situation that way as well and certainly fell into the trap. So much of therapy theory seems like grandiose speculation without the benefit of a breathing being on the receiving end. It’s all just theory. Zinker shows great evidence of this by knowing what’s best for every and all unseen clients, as he’s instructing his students.
Other videos are more disturbing. Here he compares his results –in just a few minutes–to Rodin:
Here –later in the video–he talks about his own session with a therapist where, as a highly “mature” “accomplished,” “plenty of esteem.” being, he asks his therapist for what he wants–to curl up in his lap and have the therapist read him “The Little Prince.”
Take a look at bullyonline to see how common it is for people with sociopathic tendendies to wreak havoc in organisations. It’s a huge problem.
jorobs, I’ve taken many workshops and classes as an adult learner and observe the political obstacles of students not in line with what authorities are preaching. I’ve yet to be in a class, or maybe a group, where the members are invited to disagree with the leader. And when someone does, the larger body often sides with the leader, particularly a bully. We’re human, but we’re sheep.
I’ve drawn boundaries with teachers–mind you, these are non-credit courses–and even at my most tactful, I often received a resistant or antagonistic response. A few younger teachers eventually did get around to appreciating my feedback, which I tried to deliver VERY carefully.
You have an astute point, that Zinker crossed a boundary in telling the student how to defend her boundary. Though eff!# off is the normal vernacular in some groups of aspiring thugs, it violates the protocol of professional instruction. The teacher wasn’t at all observant of the student’s response–as you were.
Had this been a real situation, a man in a woman’s space, she’d probably be better off simply excusing herself and walking away. And her response might vary: is the guy was making an advance, oblivious to social cues etc? The “witnesses” likely would have a variety of opinions. And if she were describing the dilemma to a therapist who WASN’T there, he would have no way of knowing all the variables, egos and the politics at stake. I venture “eff!# off” is the worst alternative response.
I doubt anyone dare criticize Zinker OUTSIDE the confines of that exercise. In another video, he compares his outcomes with that of sculptor Rodin!
Yes bullies can throw any group into chaos. It takes an extraordinary leader too to be fair-minded and respectful, yet strong enough to “control” group members who might want to domineer.
I’ll throw out more to ponder here. Even when a counselor can be kind, self-aware and low agenda, I see huge challenges in helping clients enter and use therapy realistically and dismantling the whole “authoritarian” construct of it. To borrow a phrase in the film “An American President,” the therapist has a huge “home court advantage” in the very set-up of therapy, which conveys authority if not oracle magic.
I’ve enjoyed some writings from the UK questioning the authoritarian model, Yvonne Bates and Richard House, and the client book by Anna Sands, Falling for Therapy.
And this video, where ZInker talks about the wondrous transformation of almost choking Perls.
Insane.
And he was training a younger generation of students—how to facilitate emotional health.
Ludicrous! – in response to “how to facilitate emotional health”. This ability to “change” others is equally ridiculous. I know from Gestalt and any change one experiences is short-lived and superficial. What Zinger is doing is not profound or effective. The only thing it does is confuse people and take them farther away from themselves, creating followers of a psychological movement based on manipulation and abuse.
I experienced psychotherapy exactly that way–as an exercise in self-deception both of my part and the therapist’s. Zinker’s video about near choking his teacher as mental health could be an absurd comedy except for the fact I think the guy is serious.
Oh gosh! Thank you for that last Zinker clip – I would argue that he became far less of a man. I find the attitude of my course tutors just – horrible. They have had 20/30 years at the coal-face of human mystery and they are just – completely immune to it all. Probably just thinking about their pensions/dinner etc. In a way, I don’t have a problem with that (although they are incredibly boring) but it is the total disrespect they have for other people – I find that curious. They must have ‘checked out’ somewhere along the line in terms of ethics/morality/creativity whatever. I think that the problem is, they are still in some sort of 1970s or 1980s paradigm, whereas, the caravan has passed – ages ago.
I remember the 60s….(old joke). I entered college in 1969 when the free-wheeling, do-your-own-thing culture and rebellion felt like a new invention–though certainly it wasn’t. I even attended an encounter group. But as I look at the Zinker clips, that stuff seems like formula schtick, leftovers sold long past its prime. By the time I get to Zinker’s choking story, the do-your-own-thing culture appears its own descent into madness.
jorobs, I’m curious, in what ways are your course tutors disrespectful of others? How does this disrespect manifest?
I will answer that one more fully when I have a bit more time, 123. One thing that has struck me is that, as the course is recognised by professional bodies, they are supposed to be upholding principles and codes of professional conduct. These apply to a counsellor who is a member of those bodies, it also applies to the training providers. Training in counselling is supposed to model standards and practice consistent with those expected of practitioners in the role for which the training is being provided.
I do not see that happening on the course that I am doing.
“I’ve yet to be in a class, or maybe a group, where the members are invited to disagree with the leader. And when someone does, the larger body often sides with the leader, particularly a bully. We’re human, but we’re sheep.”
Yes, indeed, it’s almost like a type of Stockholm Syndrome. I see this happenening on the course all the time. It would be so much more interesting if students were encouraged to really challenge – not in a nasty way but just ‘think outside the box’.
“I doubt anyone dare criticize Zinker OUTSIDE the confines of that exercise. In another video, he compares his outcomes with that of sculptor Rodin!”
Haha, yes, hilarious – how grandiose! But in a way, that analogy speaks volumes – chipping away at a person’s self identity until he gets an image of that person as he wants them to be, rather than allowing them to develop into whatever THEY want to be. Hmmmm.
This links in with some of the criticisms made of gestalt/cults in the links I gave above – Schaler and Roche both puncture the sadistic grandiosity of the ‘cult leader’.
“Just my two cents: therapists can do horrible things (like Mr. Zinker) in an effort to take care of their own unfulfilled childhood needs. And patients can do the same by believing in the illusion of the healer parent therapist.It is an ultimately destructive relationship where both parties collude unconsciously to take care of needs whose end date has expired.
I’ve found that the person that can help me most is me. I know my history, my childhood, and I’m still making connections between what happened to me and how it has affected me as an adult. These are very real things. What isn’t real is this supposed concern and help that therapists profess to give. Mr Zinker is simply a power hungry man who gets his jollies by “changing” others. There is no regard whatsoever for the individual’s truth and history. I don’t call this therapy. I call it discipleship and subjugation of the individual cloaked in the disguise of “liberation”.”
Yes – I would agree with all of that. What you are saying links in quite closely with some of Carl Rogers beliefs that unconditional positive regard for a client is the key to a healing relationship.
As for therapists taking care of unfulfilled childhood needs – I could not agree more. They are not SUPPOSED to be doing this, however I see evidence of it on the course I am doing and I have found evidence of it from my own experiences as a client.
Perhaps what I am seeing in terms of the attitude of the course leaders is evidence of what Roche observed in the ‘tibet-oholics’ that tried to enlist him in their bogus ‘meditation’ scam – their own self-hatred is manifested in their attitude towards the students.
In my real-life experiences with therapists, as well as conversations around the internet, it is the rare one that welcomes his methodology, interpretations or his dominance questioned, and most typically get quite nasty when confronted with challenge. This is identical to the dysfunctional parent from which they purport to deliver us.
1234nyc writes: “I’ve found that the person that can help me most is me. I know my history, my childhood, and I’m still making connections between what happened to me and how it has affected me as an adult. ”
I find that true is well. And one would think that the goal of therapy. But instead much of it replaces the fairytale illusion of the happy childhood and with a new fairytale–the therapist as rescuer, sage and savior.
Like many I suspect, I entered therapy hoping my therapist to be a parent substitute. Rather than setting me straight, their contributions only were to reinforce that myth.
I found that childhood exploration, beyond the discovery that my parents weren’t omniscient and omnipotent, only led me to self-absorption and self-pity. Yes, it certainly helps to “catch myself” thinking or living based on irrational fears. But revisting the source of those fears never provided “healing.” That was achieved by moving forward, succeeding sometimes, and living. I did find Karen Horney’s writing, particularly Our Inner Conflicts and Neurosis and Human Growth, good explanations of sources and manifestations of irrational thought.
Considering that psychotherapy was built on a speculative foundation, and that outrageous inhumanity has been committed in guise of healing, the absolutism you describe in your institution is disappointing.
I’ve run across a few that are questioning the theories. I’m uncertain of the replacements.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Therapy_beyond_modernity.html?id=2Tiu9F6YxPoC
Hi disequilibrium1, just to clarify, that was me you were quoting (not jorobs), when you wrote “I’ve found that the person that can help me most is me…” 😉 Cheers.
Whoops, I’ll edit it. 🙂 Good quote.
I am pretty shocked by what I am seeing on the course. I will post more when I have more information and have decided on my involvement (or not) witht the course provider.
jorobs, I admire your integrity. I suspect that many have so many years and dollars invested in their training and careers that they won’t ask these questions.
Thankfully, my investment so far financially is not too much – although I do think the course is expensive compared to some others, especially considering the calibre of the tutors. As for my time investment – again, so far not too much. Emotionalolly/psychologically the investment has been too much which is why it is the right time to leave. I have learnt a lot but, as Roche wrote in that piece on sadistic teachers, it is important to recognise when to leave a cult.
I know of one person who made a huge investment in psychotherapy training – worked incredibly hard, borrowed thousands and thousands of pounds, spent many hours in counselling herself, only to find herself failed at the end of the training by a sadistic course leader. I listened to her story and it resonated with me for a number of reasons.
I think this course leader had it in for her from the very beginning. And of course, when she tried to complain, the complaints system was all ‘in house’ so pretty much rigged from the beginning. And, guess what, the course leader was not only a fully paid up member of the therapy cult but also a member of a religious cult (a priest no less). I think misogyny had a lot to do with it, in her particular case, plus he probably likes to have one or two people on the course who had can ‘victimise’.
I’m 61 and still find it difficult to weigh the pluses and minuses of less-than-ideal groups, jobs, etc. and decide if the compromises and diminishment can ever be worth it. It’s so difficult feeling when a minority when others are silent. When I have choices, I do opt for finding respectful teachers and groups. While no place is perfect, I have found some talented teachers and leaders, who nourish and teach me on many levels.
jorobs, you sound clear-eyed about your situation–not easy being in the middle of it.
Yes – it is very difficult to weigh up the pros and cons of any situation but in essence I am not an unhappy person – I went throught a very difficult situation at work which, somewhat ironically, seems to be repeating itself during therapy training. I have quite a low tolerance for psychological game-playing – which can happen in all sorts of situations – at work, study, leisure, realtionships, group situations and so on. I guess the challenge is not to get caught up in it al, take what you can from it, l and just be faintly amused rather than infuriated – easier said than done.
Having said that, I do think that gut instincts are very under-rated and my gut instincts are speaking loud and clear at the moment. I will post again soon.
Respectful, talented, nourishing – yes those are all things to be cherished…
I can see “jousting for rank” in many situations, and it’s taken me quite a while to find that “amusement” you’re talking about. Sometimes I try to speak up about a bully. That works better in a small temporary group, but has bought me grief when a culture is a large and entrenched. Sometimes I stay if I need something from the situation and the torment is brief.
Jorobs, I’m glad you’ve found clarity and wish you well in exploring options.
Kristi’s blog specifically covers filing a complaint in the case of sexual abuse. In the process, I think she does an outstanding job of explaining the distortions often planted in the therapeutic relationship and the many layers of ambiguity in recovering from them.
http://www.survivingtherapistabuse.com/2012/05/taking-action-against-your-therapist-whatever-your-feelings-are/comment-page-1/#comment-15304
Article (in pdf form) on how practitioner beliefs discard research:
http://tinyurl.com/756zvet
Thought I would update on my training journey which has now come to an end, at least with that particular training institute. There were several major factors involved in my decision making.
The most important one was that I did not have confidence in the course leaders who I felt lacked compassion, integrity or empathy. On top of that, I found them inauthentic and seriously lacking in any capacity to reflect on their own behaviour and how it might impact students. There was a curious attitude that anything untoward that happened would always be the ‘fault’ of the student. So, if their administration was sloppy (which it often was) leading to confusion about dates and times, that would not be anything to do with them (??). They simply could not, ever, take responsibility for anything which ended up being infuriating as well as making them look incredibly immature. It really was extraordinary. However, conversely, they were more than happy to approtion ‘blame’ onto a student even when it was not warranted. Worse, they would wrongly apportion blame onto students for something petty, and then encourage other students to join in the ‘witch-hunt’. I found the whole thing utterly infantile – I’ve worked as a teacher and I have seen more mature behaviour in seven year olds!
The other factor was that one of the conditions of the training was that you were in weekly therapy for the entire duration of the course – that means 2+ years depending on the level of qualification. Two/three/four years of weekly therapy is a hell of a long time and is also very expensive. Add on to that the cost of supervision plus, of course, the training costs which are high, and you find yourself quite heavily in debt (although not everyone on the course was paying for themselves – in one of two cases the costs were funded by work/a charitable organsation for instance). I was happy to undergo some therapy but 2+ years just seemed to be too much! I was interesting in probably working in shorter-term counselling (hence I was doing a counselling as opposed to psychotherapy course) with a clear focus on specific issues and results.
The other factor for me was the terrible experience I had with the second counsellor that I saw. I was determined to give it a reasonable shot but – yikes! She was just awful. Again, infantile behaviour I presume in an attempt to ‘rile’ me and bring out my ‘inner child’ or something. In the event it just irritated me. Talking to me as though as was a child, using a patronising tone of voice, provoking me with irrelevant questions and other ‘crazy-making’ techniques. A horrible experience. I DID learn from it – because it was so awful I decided to trust me own intuition more and not look to other people for validation or answers.
This has turned into a bit of a rant – but I hope I had provided a perspective from someone who has been on both sides of the field and has now chosen to get out of the field altogether. To me, it just seemed like a self-serving ‘industry’ – hooking prople into long term therapy. The course leaders become your supervisiors (for a fee) the institute rents out rooms when you qualify (for a fee). It’s all a bit of a gravy-train, which is fine if it works for people but…..
And I am left wondering if my experience of the behaviour and attitude of the training providers (who are, or at least were, therapists themselves) in some way reflects the attitude and behaviour of (some) therapists towards their clients? Certainly, from my own experience as a client, I would say that it does and from what I have read on here, others have had experiences of feeling patronised, belittled and so on.
jorobs, I hope it brings you satisfaction making this decision and emerging from the other side clear-headed. I have reactions in two directions. Where can those like you, who ask questions, go from here? On the other hand are all those you left behind in your training who aren’t asking those questions. What you describe seems an entire culture which eventually will be delivered as mental health services.
(Pardon me if I don’t respond in the next few days when I’m mostly off-line. ),
“I have reactions in two directions. Where can those like you, who ask questions, go from here? On the other hand are all those you left behind in your training who aren’t asking those questions. What you describe seems an entire culture which eventually will be delivered as mental health services. ”
Thank you for your response and also once again thank you for starting this blog which has turned out to be an amazing resource!
I am asking those two questions myself! The main reason I became interested in counselling in the first place was because of a work-place bullying situation. I was subjected to an unprovoked and unforseen barrage of verbal/psychologicaal abuse which (I now realise having researched this whole subject) left me in a state of ‘dissociation’. I suppose you could call it a form of nervous breakdown. As someone who had never experienced anything like this before, I wanted to know what had happened and why. I was certainly left in a very vulnerable and confused state, doubting my sense of self. What made the whole incident so shocking was that the abuse came from someone who was supposed to be mentoring me, yet it was clearly planned and deliberate. I couldn’t get my head around why anyone would behave so vindictively.
Anyway, the reason I mention this is that I think I went into counselling and counselling training with a different background to many of the students who have come from abusive family backgrounds. Many are familiar with the process of ‘dissociation’ but in their cases it has been due to verbal/physical or sexual abuse from family members. Not all come from such traumatic backgrounds but I would say around two thirds of the students have had at least one parent who was abusive/had a serious personality disorder or mental illness. As I think I may have posted up-thread somewhere, I think many are still very much working through all the issues that this type of childhood abuse brings. My personal view is that (some) of the students put too much trust in the hands of authority figures without carefully evaluating whether it is appropriate to do so. If you lay your soul open to someone you want to be pretty sure that you are in safe hands. I had got to the stage where I was not comfortable placing any more trust in the training provider. I was not confident that the trust was warranted and I felt a lack of discernment by (some) of the other students. To be fair, they have already invested quite a bit or time and money in the course so in many ways it is easier for them to ignore the red flags and plough on, rather than admit defeat, and I do understand that.
I am sure that many do have concerns and doubts about the training, but are probably taking the view that they will get the qualification and then practice in the way that they see fit – which may indeed be very different to the ethos that pervades at the training establishment. You can learn a lot about how NOT to be and I imagine that some of the students will be taking that view, especially once they have qualified and have got some experience
For me – I am not sure what my path will be. IF I was to consider some more counselling training, it would be integrative and probably more focused on short-term counselling or specific issues, for instance. I think it can be helpful if you are going throught a difficult period – bereavement, redundancy etc.
Not sure I have really answered your question, though. I think what is standing out for me is that it is vital that someone working in the mental health sector has worked through their own issues and is doing the job because they have a genuine desire to help people, rather than other, less altruistic, motives. The counsellor I saw was not such a person and it is disturbing that, despite impressive-sounding qualifications, she seems to be peddling her own agenda. Once again, I find myself referring back to that article that I linked up-thread that the two most important qualities for a counsellor are good character and emotional stablity. Difficult to assess, admittedly.
I so appreciate you and others like you who ask these basic questions about the counseling process. I’m more comfortable with the general concept of short-term or situational counseling.Perhaps it’s not quite the same, but I’ve hired caseworkers to help long-distance disabled family members, and they were extremely helpful.
I’m less comfortable with the idea that anyone puts himself in anyone else’s “hands.” Even if there could be such a thing as the completely aware, altruistic counseling, I wouldn’t and didn’t find this kind of surrender beneficial, for a variety of reasons. When I was in counseling, I really needed to grow up more, as opposed to finding an imaginary parent. Now that I’m far away from counseling, I’m enjoy that a privilege of adulthood are my choices to whom I’m accountable and what I disclose.
I’m very sorry about your workplace bullying. I believe people act destructively out of their own fears, pains and imbalances. Two Karen Horney books, Our Inner Conflicts and Neurosis and Human Growth are an interesting explanations of human conflicts, compensations and self-deceptions. She believed that everyone has an “idealized” self, a self-definition if you will, which often is not in synch with reality.
Thanks for your reponse which has lead me to a further insight – that many of the students are doing what you are describing – idealising the tutors as ‘imaginary parents’. What is ironic is how unlike a caring parent they are (or at least my idea of a caring parent!) I will look at that book – it sounds fascinating. A further insight for me is that perhaps I was so affected by the workplace bullying because I had been, unconsciously, placing my mentor (who was much older than me) in a parent-style role (the word ‘mentor’ has some parenting associations I think) and that it was such a slap in the face to be so humiliated and degraded when I had worked so hard. Guess I had been placing too much emphasis on her role as an authority figure and cared too much about what she said rather than trusting my gut instincts which were telling me (if I had chosen to follow them) that she was trouble. She must have been close to retirement age and I imagine had been causing trouble for a long time – perhaps I was her swan-song? Who knows. (I did speak to other people who had encountered her and their stories were similar which was reassuring in terms of my own perceptions being reasonably accurate…)
What I do know is that this incident got thrown back into my face not only during the counselling course (I swear the tutors knew how to press everyone’s buttons) but also during the counselling session. It was at that point that I thought: enough!
As I understand Karen Horney, she believed that our relationships to authorities and our conflicts between being protected and parented and our autonomy is pivotal in how our personalities are formed. And the trouble starts when those authorities fail to provide what we want our need. So we want independence from them-yet we don’t, and so invent all sorts of cover stories for ourselves–an “idealized self” is her phrase. (Any Horney readers feel free to correct my pocket summary.)
I find her books valuable, because finding this autonomy, or to use therapyspeak, “interdepedence,” has been a lifelong struggle. As I’m more successful, I find that compliance with others becomes a choice rather than an enslavement. The more can see my allegiances as voluntary, the less beholden, the more powerful I feel.
That’s why therapy left me feeling ultimately exploited. It manipulated that part of me who needed the strong parent/elder to guide me and make decisions, but returned no benefits.
Jorobs, I’ve long withered under the rage of bullies, and I notice many/most people equally intimidated. I could find them quite overwhelming and debilitating. Then my creative work, which is collaborative, forced me seeking new ways to minimize and withstand them. Slowly I’ve started to view them as tantrum-throwing children, full of their own pain and vulnerability. If I can’t get away from them, or the situation mandates I deal with them, I find that a calming presence and some assertiveness, some “turn the other cheek” sometimes works. Note that is a different strategy than the “defending our boundaries” that therapists often instruct. Sometimes the internal boundaries have to be different than the actual interaction.
Yes that is interesting. For me what is now helpful is disengaging slightly in situations where before I would have been 110% engaged and commited. It gives you a bit more breathing space. I gained some insight by reading ‘A New Earth’ by Eckhart Tolle. I like his concept of ‘pain bodies’. My understanding is that the ‘pain body’ is a bit like the ego – it gets in the way of just being and enjoying the now. By becoming aware of what triggers the ‘pain body’ you can become more aware of what has been triggered and why and you can chose how to respond, or not. It’s about accepting what is happening without judging or ‘shoulds’ which is how many of us respond to any kind of challening encounter.
For instance, one of the reasons I felt reluctant to leave the course early, was because I felt that in some ways this would repeat the previous pattern (where I had dropped out of the work-place training due to the bullying). I suppose by embarking on another training course, I was on some level testing myself to see whether I would stick the course this time, or again ‘drop out’ (and so confirm my worst suspicions about myself!).
It took me some time to feel comfortable with the idea that, even if I was ‘dropping out’ again, that was okay! As far as I was concerned, I was exiting another toxic environment.
I think in our very ‘performance driven’ culture, it is so easy to become self-critical – constantly trying to obtain yet another qualification, the very higest marks, be the cleverest, fittest or whatever it is. In a way, contemporary western society is founded upon this kind of competitive model. Yet, ultimately, despite all the trappings of success – money, power, straight As or whatever – some people are still not satisfied or happy. And I think this might tie in with what you were saying about doing things that are creative. It also ties in with what Eckhart Tolle writes about – letting go of the eternal quest for more. Easier said than done of course!
I’ve struggled a number of times with whether to try to right a difficult situation, leave, or in some cases, take a vacation. Over the years I’ve gotten studier –through experience and reading, not therapy! I assume we all encounter dilemmas and choices along the way and can continue to explore our responses. It also shows me the limits of how someone else in a remote room can help us–because it’s impossible to predict many outcomes as we change our strategies. The labels of therapy or thinking we owe an undeserving person an accounting–can get in our way.
I can sense your relief. I also get from your posts, you’re a probing, thinking person and I hope you find a place where your perception and talents are appreciated.
Have just read a link that someone posted further upthread and another lightbulb has gone one for me.
http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/02/why-anti-authoritarians-are-diagnosed-as-mentally-ill/
“Gaining acceptance into graduate school or medical school and achieving a PhD or MD and becoming a psychologist or psychiatrist means jumping through many hoops, all of which require much behavioral and attentional compliance to authorities, even to those authorities that one lacks respect for. The selection and socialization of mental health professionals tends to breed out many anti-authoritarians. Having steered the higher-education terrain for a decade of my life, I know that degrees and credentials are primarily badges of compliance. Those with extended schooling have lived for many years in a world where one routinely conforms to the demands of authorities.”
This is sooooooo true. And this is where I have come unstuck in the past few years. I have refused to jump through the hoops of authority figures that I have had no respect for. I refused to jump though the hoops of the work-place sociopathic ‘mentor’ who was playing all sorts of sadistic games with me.
Then I refused to jump through the hoops of the counselling training provider. I know for a fact that the training provider I was with specifically targetted people who who were compliant towards authority figures, or who were in a position where they now really needed validation from authority figures in order to get their lives back on track. In my opinion, they abused their position of trust that’s why I had to get out. And in fact I think that is their strategy – anyone who is too independent-minded is not welcome there so they find a way to make sure they leave.
I think independent thinking is lifeblood of our culture. It is the pioneers who who move knowledge forward, who innovate. Yet so many valuable spirits are stilled in the service of institutions and systems. Maybe this is the gist of life.
I too tend to be an independent minded person, and paid the price more than once. I began my adulthood with no “political” skills. I’ve left places because I was bullied–or regarded as the forever underling. I left an important and yet-to-be-replaced opportunity because of how I was treated.
I’m now in a field when many projects are short-term and sometimes withstand a certain amount of punishment to serve a goal, or I continue to look for ways to tell another person, gracefully, to treat me better. Sometimes it’s a matter of shifting the focus off the power struggle and on to the subject at hand.
I try to visit the other person’s viewpoint and can see them in some cases. In the workplace, my boss had a task to accomplish or in school, lessons to be taught. The teacher might not have questioned enough himself and be threatened. Sometimes people act as they do because they’re over their heads. When I’m presenting an opposing view, sometimes I’m able to frame it as the advantage to the other person.
Maybe I’m saying, that was time passes, I see these difficulties less about who I am, my personality weakness, and more in terms of strategies. I’m not a domineering overwhelming person. That probably won’t change, and even if I could it would bring other liabilities.
Sometimes I’ll need to leave. And need to ruminate on it for a while. I’m now returning to a place where I needed to take a “vacation,” learning that I didn’t burn those bridges irreparably.
Nonconformity, seems the tougher (maybe more rewarding) road. My favorite reading is biography. I think the most successful people all once faced these uncertain crossroads.
“I hope you find a place where your perception and talents are appreciated.”
Yes – that would be really good!
I think my future plan will be to have less of a plan and just go with the flow a bit more. I am definitely not interested in jumping through hoops for authority figures! Thank you for your responses – I have found them very thoughtful and thought-provoking.
It’s interesting what you are writing about personality styles. I would say I am pretty easy-going and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. What tends to happen is that (some) people interpret this as me being a pushover and they start pushing. In the past, I have tended to ignore the early red flags, which again I think has been construed as me giving the green light for that particular person to continue with the behaviour. Eventually, I will erupt and most probably terminate the relationship/job whatever so it is so I can avoid all contact with that person (or possibly organisation if the leadership is toxic).
What I had hoped to gain from counselling and from counselling training was the capacity to ‘nip things in the bud’ in terms of expectations for behaviour. Some people seem quite skilled at keeping other people’s bad behaviour in check – they seem to know how to adopt a tone of voice, or an attitude or SOMETHING that is effectively like a warning shot to the other person: ‘hey, you are starting to take the piss here, back down now and we can make this work’. In other words, rather than getting to the stage of being furiously angry and erupting, having strategies for managing the situation at a much earlier stage and avoiding the complete volcanic eruption!
That Zinker video clip with him encroaching into the student’s personal space could have been an exploration of this type of situation but he just ended up manipulating the situation to suit his own agenda.
Unfortunately, the counsellors I saw seemed more interested in delving into other areas and so completely de-railed me. I just ended up confused. It can’t be a coincidence that other posters on this blog have also had bad experiences with gestalt counselling.
Jorobs, you describe a life-long struggle for me, I definitely could have been described as a “cat without claws,” probably picked at the teacher’s scapegoat more than average. Over the decades! I’ve developed strategies to help me be cooler when these bad dynamics develop. Of course it’s more difficult when the offender holds some fate in his/her hands.
Therapy has taught me the wrong things. I was given mechanical responses: “I feel hurt when you…” I picture a husband and wife in fierce battle. “Darling, I feel anger when you pour soup over my head.” It also taught me to magnify wounds to the point of victim hood, and a mandate to “defend our boundaries,” which doesn’t help me in real-life situations.
When I look at conflict as a clash of the “idealized selves” (Horney framework) it helps.
I have an arsenal of ready responses–everything from the “I beg your pardon” proposed by Miss Manners, to “I hope you weren’t trying to make me look foolish,” “I hope you didn’t mean that as a dig.” “it’s almost as if you wanted to treat me like a child.” “I can listen to you more closely if you don’t raise your voice” (I try to point out the offense without being directly accusatory.)
But as you probably know, it’s not easy to respond with the right response at the right time.
It’s become easier since I don’t look at the “authority figure,” for validation–again counter to what I learned in therapy. I’ve also stopped seeing slights as mortal wounds, and can withstand some punishment in service a larger goal. (Hope I’m not starting political wars here, but I think our President Obama is particularly skilled at remaining cool under attack.) With more internal calm, I can do better explaining to the other person why raising her voice, whatever, doesn’t serve the situation. I try to make clear that civil behavior is to their benefit. It gives me more distance if I can see an attacking person as someone in distress.
I’ve no experience with Gestalt Therapy personally, but what I’ve seen in those clips and the confrontations people have described here–sound leftover from the 1970s theory of “letting it all hang out.”
Over time, I’ve developed a better antenna and more capacity for generosity and calm with my tormenters. It will be a life-long project.
To clarify, whittling down the need for an authority figure’s validation, has been a long, long project. After all, our entire schooling was built around working for that validation. And relationships with therapists only reinforced it.
Someone in my ego-driven field advised me that the best way to deal with other people’s egos is to get mine out of the way. Took that as meaning, to rely less on other people’s validation.
So true – as you say, the first 20 or so years of life (and probably much more for most people – if not a whole life time) is all about fitting into society’s expectations for behaviour and that has a lot to do with validation from authority figures. In the first instance that is parents and other adult family members. Then it is school and any outside school clubs and sports, then college. Then authority figures at work etc unless you are fortunate enough to work for yourself I suppose. Not forgetting the authority figures like the police, lawyers, medical consultants, politicians and so on.
Oh yes, and therapists!
The big problem I have is authority figures who abuse their position of authority. To my mind, hand in hand with the privilege of authority comes reponsibility for using that privilege responsibly. In the past few years I have unfortunately encountered more than a few people in positions of power who have abused their position of authority. Under the guise of ‘helping’ they have, in reality, been pursuing other somewhat darker agendas. Unfortunately, I think that there is most definitely some truth in that old expression ‘power corrupts’ (seems to with politicians!). And I suppose people will sometimes be attracted to positions of power for non-altruistic motives, such as to control, manipulate, dominate, frustrate and other power games.
Interestingly, I have had some feedback from the training provider. Let’s just say that I am so glad I am out of there. It’s what might be called a mind-f***.
I am pretty sure that I have been reasonable accurate in my perceptions of what is going on – they target anyone who has an ounce of spirit or self-esteem and do their best to destroy it, rather like the sadistic parent. It’s a bit like a few posters have described their experiences in therapy – you get built up and then knocked down.
Yawn. I just can’t be bothered with their sadistic little games any more – especially not when it costs so much money. I’d rather join the army or SAS or something – at least then you know exactly what is going on – it’s a boot camp and that’s what you signed up for.
But all the psychological mind games – no thanks!
I can’t imagine being involved in something as intimate as therapy when it is a “mandated,” particularly when the process becomes destructive. Seems like you’re either trapped there, or forced, like you did, to make a very high-stakes choice. Jeffrey Masson discussed his nutty training process in Final Analysis, and Raubolt in his “Power Games” above.
Not only are we taught to obey authority figures, but it feels that we’re often reinforced to see or idealize them unrealistically. So when they do make errors, or are abusive, we have a huge dissonance in expectations vs. reality. It’s quite a dilemma.
What’s particularly sad is that many consumers feel captive in abusive therapy, in the service of “getting well,” when indeed they are perfectly free to walk out the door with no consequence. It’s the mind scramble of therapy.
Jorobs, sending wishes this detour reveals its silver lining, if you’ll pardon my mixed metaphor. 🙂 (Ever the optimist, I’ve had “set-backs” turn out for the best more than once.)
“So when they do make errors, or are abusive, we have a huge dissonance in expectations vs. reality. It’s quite a dilemma.”
Yes – it is psychologically disturbing. I can understand how people do feel captive in abusive therapy – it’s probably a bit like an abusive relationship (which, ironically, will presumably be one of the primary reasons people go into therapy in the first place).
Reading through one of the assignments that I did, there are over 35 critical comments, many of them framed in terms that (if there wasn’t the therapy psychobabble excuse) are remarkably like personal insults. I just can’t imagine giving feedback like that to anyone – it was so negative, so judgemental, full of assumptions and some extraordinarily inflammatory assertions.
I can only presume that it was designed to disarm me and make me question my perceptions. It was certainly wildly confusing. I cannot even begin to follow some of the assertions, not because there might not be something in them but just because they have taken such quantum leaps from the material at hand.
That program certainly sounds like a nightmare. I think there are two aspects to teaching–transmitting the skills/knowledge, and instructing in the learning/growth process itself. I’ve seen how wrong fear-based learning ultimately can be, because it draws focus away from learning, self-acceptance, risk-taking, process etc. I ran across a study how fear-based learning shuts down creativity.
From what I saw on the videos and what you describe, this sounds like an twisted, inverted interpretation of growth and therapy. I hope once the sludge is washed away, this crazy-house experience offers some paradoxical gift.
I know too how holding a minority view within a cruel culture can be quite painful. Time and years sometimes has a way of revealing the truth.
I think it is all a bit of a scam – all the more so in that anyone can call themselves a counsellor, in the UK, at least, without a single qualification, so it’s not as though the training is mandatory. Perhaps therein lies the problem – the training providers are not as scrutinised as they might be if they had to be ‘government approved’. I’m not saying ‘government approval’ is some kind of universal panacea (far from it in fact!) but at least the training providers would have to demonstrate to an independent body that they were doing what they are supposed to be doing.
Under the current system, in the UK at least, some of the counselling training programmes which have the most legitimacy are ‘accredited’ by professional bodies which counsellors themselves will then aspire to belong to once qualified (BCAP, UKPC for instance). In the initial instance, I imagine this means that the course provider has to demonstrate that a number of criteria are being followed. However, once the course is up and running, I doubt there is much safeguarding in place to ensure that the professional guidelines for good practice are being followed. They certainly weren’t being followed on the course I did. Theoretically, a student on one of the courses can complain to the professional body but I imagine that would pretty much spell an end to the training there and, given the costs involved, there are huge disincentives to following that route. Also, a lot of the students, particularly the younger ones, will be heavily reliant on the tutors for references so won’t want to rock the boat.
Another part of the scam I have observed is this. The course provider gets its hands on your money way up front – months before the course begins and so you are financially tied in at a very early stage. I imagine that if you elect not to start the course, they make it very difficult indeed for you to get your money back. The very moment you DO start the course, you are clobbered financially for the whole year. That is made very clear. Towards the end of the first year the training provider decides whether they will pass you and allow you to continue on to the second year. However, before you know whether or not you have passed on to the second year, you are obliged to commit financially for the second year. So, in other words, if, say, you don’t pass you still have to go through the process of reclaiming money for the second year.
And I imagine that if you DO pass (having jumped through the sadistically high hoops that the tutors have set such as re-submitting hideously difficult assignments even if they were perfectly okay first time around) and decide you can’t hack going onto the second year (and who could blame you having sweated so hard for so little return) then I imagine they make it very difficult indeed to get your money back.
There was an incident for me at the start of the course, where I had some interaction with the course provider over times and dates, and their response to me was so heavy-handed and laden with threats that, had I not paid so much money upfront, I would not have started the course at all and would have gone elsewhere. However, as I had paid all upfront I couldn’t face a protracted battle to get my money back and so, against my better jugement, I started. Still, the writing was on the wall from the very beginning.
So the financial structure is such that the students are heavily indebted and have very few options if the training turns out to be not what they had hoped or just plain substandard. The training provider is holding all the power and they are quite happy to wield it – they seem to be either unwilling or unable to accept that, in reality, they are providing a service to paying consumers.
So – once again – as with choosing a therapist – the message is BUYER BEWARE!
The whole thing is a con and I am so glad to be out of it.
It sounds like such an sad infuriating situation, and most students would be sorting this out at such a young age. I know there are what seem to be thoughtful practitioners in the UK who oppose regulation entirely, making the “buyer beware” credo transparent. (This group has written quite a bit about this.) You paint a grim picture about whom this field self-selects.
My understanding of the US system is slim, so someone please chime in and correct me. There are various credentials, such as psychologist, psychiatrist, social worker, psychiatric nurse, and one must go through a prescribed education to earn these credentials. The programs are offered through respected colleges and universities. Yet there still are hundreds of branches of psychotherapy–so there is no uniformity in training. And a counselor can earn their credentials through “diploma mill” type schools.
But a degree from a “good school” doesn’t necessarily translate to a good counselor. But as we know, grad school does not teach life wisdom, which I think the most important characteristic of someone helping someone else. We don’t really know how our counselor was trained or sees the process of therapy, nor would we probably understand it until emerging, sadder but wiser, at the other end. I saw a psychologist with a degree from one of our nation’s most prestigious Ivy League schools. She was still quite deluded.
Many (some?) states also allow unaccredited counselors to practice. I think it’s difficult to an inexperienced client to evaluate the quality of counseling she receives.
The problem is really magnified when things go awry. Regulation is left to the state licensing boards and regulators, often comprised of the therapists’ peers. Resources are stretched thin. Only a tiny fraction of complaints are decided in favor of the consumer. It’s only when something goes wrong does a consumer realize what a thin safety net existed to protect her.
“I saw a psychologist with a degree from one of our nation’s most prestigious Ivy League schools. She was still quite deluded.”
🙂 Yes, I am not necessarily suggesting that accreditation would solve the problem. For instance in the UK educational institutions are regulated by the government body Ofsted. This is a mixed bag of tricks but I do think it has led to a little bit more accountability within the teaching profession in terms of recognising that schools are providing a service – as opposed to providing an establishment where teachers can get their own agendas met (as I seem to remember was the case when I was at school!)
I completely agree that the problem is magnified when things go awry – and this is can often be the case within services provided by a ‘profession’ which are often self-regulating – such as medicine and law. I suppose therapy falls under the banner of medicine in terms of mental health care, although not all branches of therapy are strictly speaking ‘professions’. And again, I think there is this idea that authority figures are somehow beyond reproach – which can be quite convenient if you are an authority figure who wishes to abuse the privileges that go with the authority status.
Anyway – the bottom line is that there are huge variations in standards and the consumer is very much at the mercy of the system. This is also the case in training establishments which, in my experience, weed out those who will not conform to their own agenda (which may, or may not be, perverted).
In any event, I agree that the safety nets that one might have hoped to be fully in place are flimsy, at best.
I corrected a major typo above–grad school does NOT teach life wisdom.
There are so many problems in the system, the fix it seems almost circular. But for me, maybe the first problem might be a culture that puts the therapist on an undeserved pedestal.
A few years back I saw an older dermatologist for eczema, an annoying, but not life threatening condition. The doctor, perhaps suffering from early stages of dementia, said a few things rude, inappropriate things, an instance of what geriatricians might call disinhibition. I found it weird, but saw it for what it was and left this doctor’s practice. His retirement was announced several months later.
This would have been much more difficult had I been vulnerable, gone to this doctor for emotional guidance, and he presented himself as some sort of do-no-wrong shaman. The qualities attributed to counselors seem far out of proportion, and I believe they collude in this.
you said “can often be the case within services provided by a ‘profession’ which are often self-regulating – such as medicine and law” This is not at all true in the U.S. I used to work for the Illinois licensing board. PLENTY of lawyers and doctors had their licenses disciplined – for cheating clients, not providing services they promised, etc. BUT psychologists, therapists are ONLY disciplined for “poor services” if they sleep with their patients. THis is so unfair. – A lawyer promises to draft a will for a client. If he never does draft it, he can be reported. BUT if a therapist treats a patient like dirt, screams, and calls her names, etc. – forget about any discipline. YET THERE SHOULD BE. In what school of therapy, does it advocate yelling,at a patient? telling the patient the THERAPIST’s problems? telling her that her problems are ALL her fault?? This is such a double standard, that ruins so many patients’ lives.And there is NOWHERE they can go with it.
Yes and I would say that the training establishments collude in this too. The arrogance of the tutors on the course is quite breathtaking. They have the kind of petty mentality that you quite often find with people who have spent years working in institutions like the health service/education/the prison service. Nit-picking over trivia while being completely oblivious to the ‘bigger picture’. And I think as I mentioned upthread, they have a distinct lack of self-awareness. I have a reasonably thick skin but the barrage of personal negative comments that have come from them in the form of criticisms over assignments and other petty insults eventually wears you down to the extent that you lose any motivation. Also, who wants to be in that kind of environment if you don’t have to be?
As I said, I am not a masochist – if I had wanted a boot-camp, I would have joined the army. Yet they clearly have very little awareness of how their behaviour impacts on the students as one of the tutors has professed to be shocked by my leaving the course. Once again – it is all about him. If I was a tutor on such a course and someone left unexpectedly my first reaction would be to check that they were ok. But unfortunately they have demonstrated again and again that they don’t give a sh#t about the students. That to my mind signifies a toxic working environment. It also sends out a completely toxic message to the students about human relationships – whether at work or personal relationships. Quite dysfunctional really.
To clarify: when I wrote ‘it’s all about him’ I meant that his reponses to me demonstrate that he was never really considering me at all, but merely thinking about himself.
From what I saw of those Gestalt videos, sounds like an extension of that culture. Considering behavioral science really isn’t a science, and that any school of therapy is one technique among hundreds, one would think that teachers would have less certitude and more humility.
Well, my Ivy League educated therapist strongly believed that regression and infantilization was a good thing.
I consider insults poor teaching in any subject, in any circumstance. It’s particularly outrageous in the mental health field.
Very comprehensive list of subtle abuses in therapy:
http://website.lineone.net/~vex/How%20Therapists%20Abuse.htm
Thanks for that link – very helpful. I am now considering what action I will take as I think that the behaviour of the tutors is harmful. It has certainly left me in a tail-spin. Although, paradoxically, once my mind-fog has clearly a bit more, I think I have come out of the experience with more confidence in myself.
However, I think I was a *reasonably* emotionally robust person in the first place (although so difficult to quantify something like that) so perhaps the effect on me has not been as harmful as it might be on someone with a more fragile psychological/emotional constitution.
I don’t know. All I do know is that there is not a bat in hell’s chance that I would behave in the way that the course leaders have done. I think it is irresponsible as they cannot possibly know for sure how students will respond to challenge. I would always err on the side of caution when dealing with something as important as emotional health.
“one would think that teachers would have less certitude and more humility”
This is what puzzles me enormously. What type of mind-set must they have? Or have they spent so long working as authority figures in instutions that they are not even really aware of what they are doing? One of them I consider has a personality disorder and the other colludes with this. Perhaps they are acting out dynamics from their own backgrounds? They are they dysfunctional parents (which they presumably had) and the students are their hapless children?
Perhaps someone can help me here. What would be the best way to lodge a complaint? I have check with the training institute and complaints process looks like a nice little ‘in-house’ number. Sadly, I would have no confidence whatsoever in the process as I cannot imagine that members of the faculty on the complaints panel are going to agree that they are running a toxic environment! I know from bitter experience how difficult it is to lodge a complaint about a professional body, especially when it is self-regulating. A bit like putting the fox in charge of the hen-coop, really.
Hmmm – a further thought as I muse upon the complaints system and how much energy I can be bothered to summon up for the process.
Counselling = a unregulated industry (in the UK at any rate). Counselling training providers = unregulated educational establishments.
How dangerous to allow training in the field of mental health to be carried out by any old body. But that is precisely the situation that is happening right now.
Filing a complaint does present a great deal to consider when you’ve been a student—best and worst outcomes, any need for references etc. From the little I’ve seen and what you’ve described, the abuse doesn’t seem out of line with the culture of that school of therapy, unfortunately.
I ran across this UK organization-I know nothing about them.
http://www.professionalboundaries.org.uk/Home.aspx
I believe “Witness” produced this book:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/sarah-richardson-and-melanie-cunningham-et-al/broken-boundaries-stories-of-betrayal-in-relationships-of-care/paperback/product-3214324.html;jsessionid=7206E641EA58FCE864172AE1A4182AB2 (Don’t know if this is the best price. I notice there is an ebook.)
I’ve discussed US-based organization TELL more than once. I don’t know whether its network extends to the UK. Here in the states, it put me in touch with like-minded “survivors” of bad therapy.
http://www.therapyabuse.org/
I understand what you mean by tailspin. I’ve found myself in crazy cultures more than once my head feels like a its playing ping-pong between I know and what many others tell me.
I do wonder if there are more “subversive” students with whom you might compare notes. Did anyone else drop out?
Many times, I’ve seen perspectives change as time goes by. Over the years, truths come out. Integrity, holding ones own within a culture, can be painful and difficult. I hope eventually this experience reveals itself as a gift.
Thanks for those links. What I want to avoid is a protracted complaints procedure – I can see that their ‘in-house’ complaint procedure is a bureauocratic nightmare. From what I know of the organisation, I imgaine it would involve a bullied and terrified student being dragged in front of half a dozen rottweilers in the form of the complaints committee (or some equally pretentiously named body) who will then use all the tricks of the trade that they have refined over the past 30 years or so to belittle, demean and generally punish the student for having the temerity to ‘complain’. (In my mind’s eye, I have that scene from Oliver when he asks for a second bowl of gruel…..but perhaps I am getting carried away here…:) )
There are other students who have left the course early and there were last year too. I have a slight suspicion that there were complaints last year (and maybe in earlier years too) which would also account for the attitude of the tutors which is extraordinarily defensive. Because the training provider is not really an educational body, it lacks the infrastructure that would be available for student support that you would get in a university – for instance student representatives and a counselling service (which would be free!)
What I would have liked to see happen would be for all the students on the course to have made a collective complaint and demanded different course leaders – decent ones that actually do the job that they are being paid to do. Students have paid a lot of money for the course and they have a right to really good training from responsible lecturers. But of course the tutors are skilled at ‘divide and rule’ so they have refined the technique of picking on one or two students who can be scapegoated, while also having their clear ‘favourites’ who manage to get away with anything (there you go – the dysfunctional family dynamics again!)
The more I think about it the more I just want to walk away from such a dysfunctional organisation before it wears me down even further. I’m not sure I want to give them the pleasure of a good old fight which is what I think they would like. However, at the very least, I think I should complain to the professional body that accredits the course. I won’t hold my breath.
Dysfunction in training organisations!
Good grief – isn’t the internet amazing. An article that covers the problem:
http://rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing31.html
That Rick Ross article certainly covers so many things that happened to me in therapy. It was all the coverage of the Jonestown cult anniversary that prompted me revisit my therapy,
Complaints: facing one rottweiler was difficult enough. I wouldn’t want a whole committee. I hope you might unearth a kindred spirit or two among the roster of defectors. Who knows what people really think.
Oliver! : Song and dance makes everything better.
Jorobs, I think you should try to get in touch with the other ex-students, if you can. If you’ve all had similar experiences with the course, a joint complaint could carry more weight. Plus, you could all support each other in processing the whole experience. Group therapy to recover from therapy training!
Yes, thank you for the responses. Group therapy to recover from group therapy training – how crazy is that? I have wanted to put some distance between myself and the training provider in order to be in a slightly less fragile place. I have been in contact with one ex-student who also found the experience damaging. I agree that a group complaint would carry more weight. As I wrote upthread, I would be amazed if they have not had (possibly even group) complaints before.
As for more therapy, I just don’t feel at this stage that it would be helpful. I am finding that getting on with my life and mixing with positive people is a good healing experience. Also, trying not to take things tooooo seriously – easier said than done though.
I found the best “therapy,” simply living life. It’s been quite a struggle to slip out of the therapy framework like the second guessing myself–am I doing this or that for this or that reason. Another habit it instilled was been feeling victimized. Therapy literally trained me how to be depressed.
This is a review of Richard House’s thoughtful book, Therapy Beyond Modernity, which is available as an ebook online. The review tells you a bit about its contents. I was glad, and somewhat surprised that an APA reviewer looked on this book favorably, unlike the reception the profession usually gives its critics.
http://www.apadivisions.org/division-39/publications/reviews/therapy.aspx
Thanks for that link – couldn’t agree more with what he is saying. My experiences with therapy have been dreadful so I know for a fact that at least one training organisation is dysfunctional and will be churning out therapists with a warped view of their role.
What you describe is so disturbing. I do hope the experiences of the “contrarians” in that training program ultimately becomes a catalyst for deconstruction and change. The story isn’t over yet….
There is a part of me that wants to turn up at one of the next lecturers and announce to the tutors, in front of all the students, what I think of the organisation and why I left. I would be amazed if they haven’t had complaints before – I strongly suspect they have as one of the lecturers was absent for a long period of time. Ostensibly ‘off sick’ but if there had been a formal complaint, I imagine that there would have had to be a formal investigation and that might have involved that person being suspended pending the outcome of the investigation. These types of ‘in house’ investigations are invariably a complete whitewash, with the person who has complained being further victimed by the complaints process as the organisation works its hardest to cover-up the wrongdoing.
Once the organisation knew I was leaving, I received the most unpleasant ‘assessment’ of a piece of work that I had done. It was designed to be as negative as possible, downplaying any positives and making assertions that simply weren’t true and were designed to demean my character.
Still, I suppose the oldest trick in the book is to project one’s own shortcomings onto someone else – which is essentially exactly what he was doing. The feedback was designed to undermine my sense of self.
God, what a creep! Makes me quite angry actually.
When I meet creeps now, I assume they’re acting that way because they’re 1) know deep inside they’re living a lie, and/or 2) in something beyond their abilities.
Several times I’ve found myself the outlier in a group. I understand the upset and destabilization. I have a huge need for confirmation and outlet for my anger and it’s difficult to find just who my allies might be.
The older I get, (smile, eye roll) the more I found the wisdom of weighing risks and benefits of followup. Sometimes it takes years, but truths, and rewards for my integrity, do appear.
Well – you have provided an amazing resource here with this blog. I, for one, am very grateful and have learned a HUGE amount. So thank you!
Sorry about the circumstances that brought you here, but appreciate your thoughts and participation. Apologies for getting new agey on you (I’m not one) but I’ve truly seen setbacks eventually reveal an advantage. One never knows….
I don’t mind new agey – as it happens something quite interesting is happening in my life at the moment. In the past it is something that I would probably have walked away from as I tend to be someone who shies away from potentially tricky situations. But, probably thanks to the therapy stuff, I am going to face it head on. I also think I have decided what direction I am going to take my career in. So, good things have come from the setbacks.
I am also finding that I am less influenced by other people’s reactions and opinions. I realise that I tended to ‘introject’ a lot so I am actively working on not taking on board other people’s stuff. This links in with the boundary issues I suppose. One of my parents was quite narcissistic and that, along with a naturally quite sensitive nature, has been responsible, I think, for the ‘issues’ that took me up the therapy route in the first place. I’ve decided that being my own therapist is the best course of action!
What I think has shocked me the most about the training provider is that I swear that the lecturers tapped into students vulnerabilities. Of course they were in the unique position of being privy to very personal information as well as being responsible for training. They did not use their position of responsibility wisely, in my opinion. I feel sorry for the other students.
Jorobs, so great you’re deciding on a new direction and interesting things are happening. I find it so difficult to be immersed in what I ultimately decided was a destructive culture. It takes a large paradigm shift.
It’s good to see a bit of a fightback against theraspist’s untouchability.
It still does worry me though that there is no balanced view on the internet – people tend to have a negativity bias which can mean people don’t recognise that good therapy sometimes doesn’t feel good, which gives a grey area within which many bad therapists lie undetected. Bad therapists in my experience have come in 2 forms – those that are too soft and achieve nothing and those that bully.
The general approach I would have is to stick it out and let your instincts tell you when it is not working. Saying something like “It’s been 6 months and I see no imrovements” is not enough – I think a second opinion is a good idea, as results are more subtle. As good therapy involves hard work it’s not necessarily about instant results – the good consequences of my most successful period of therapy took 1-2 years to fully materialise and I did put more effort in than other therapies. Understanding the phrase “it must be you” is an exploration within itself and that some people just won’t do regardless of therapist. Anyway, your instincts will let you know when the therapy or therapist is just wrong for you and there are checklists on the web which are great at giving you food for thought and figuring out what is what.
Hearing things you don’t want to hear is a sensitive issue and it takes hard work to break your internal resistance and bite certain bullets, so it is imperative that the therapist a) does tell you everything you need to hear (not just what you want to hear) and b) pay attention to sensitivities. Unfortunately this is where therapists are untouchable, especially if they haven’t beem unprofessional like trying to have sex with you, as they will always have a way to duck and dive. Best thing is to move on and find another one.
Alan, as you see from the two years of comments above, you’re counseling a gathering who had bad experiences in therapy. I don’t know if you’re a therapist or simply staunchly identify, but I’ll respond assuming you’re a therapist trying to admonish the stray doggies back into the herd.
My issue with therapy extends far beyond the therapist’s untouchability and to the entire paradigm. Its authoritarian-supplicant foundation can be damaging to the consumer whose emotional need is for more competence and autonomy, not another parent surrogate or oracle.
I gather you presume an important role of the therapist is to tell people “what they don’t want to hear.” Really? Then that role is not to lead clients to their own conclusions?
In the therapist assuming his role is “telling people what they don’t want to hear,” he also assumes the consulting room provides him immunity from our normal human responses. I disagree. A therapist telling me “you have no backbone” is the same condescension it would be if I heard that on the street. And it’s obviously feedback I would have received many times from “life.” So this “truth telling” from a therapist is not wisdom, but merely salt on a wound. Even if the therapist said–more neutrally–“you didn’t stand up to your boss,” the therapist is never privy to the entire scenario–the boss’s personality and the risks I’d have to calculate in trying to change a power dynamic.
Please don’t assume the public’s instincts will protect them from bad therapy. Glance above, you’ll see testimonies of many thoughtful people who were led toward quite destructive relationships. You remember all that “trust” stuff? Therapy’s paternalistic paradigm encourages us to be more gullible than in outside life and “trust” whatever gruel the therapist dishes. As Marilyn Peterson points out, we’ve been conditioned all our lives to respect and obey authority figures. The results of this mesmerism and submission again, can be wildly destructive. At its most benign ,it’s certainly an excursion AWAY from autonomy.
You’re not the first person to chide to us doubters, “therapy involves hard work.” I hope you weren’t trying admonishment that all of us shirked at this “hard work” and now find ourselves outside the victory circle as therapy failures. The problem is the most or all of us had too much obedience. (The other patronizing rebuke therapists give us is …you have to WANT to change.)
If you are a therapist, let me offer you an admonition. I hope you check your own paternalism because it can be doing great harm. You entered this discussion with a lesson to teach us. You might have noted your audience, consumers who have done a large amount of reading and research to explore why therapy didn’t work for us. This is one of the few spots on the internet you’re able to talk with consumers who found therapy harmful. Your reaction seemed to be incuriosity. And that, many of us find, is the first problem with the entire profession. Therapists don’t want to hear consumer feedback.
I would like to ask you, and everyone else: In the courses one takes to become a therapist, do the students learn that THEY SHOULD NOT INSULT THEIR CLIENTS; CALL THEM NAMES; SCREAM AT THEM; ETC.???? to me – THAT is what is important. It is the personality of the therapist. Also, as students are they taught to be EMPATHIC? SENSITIVE AND KIND TO THEIR CLIENTS??? this may be common sense, but you know what they say about that!
Just started to explore this blogger, but enjoyed this series:
http://psychgripe.blogspot.nl/search/label/therapist%20typology
Thanks for the blog & replies. I went to a dozen or so therapists, and ‘they’ made ME crazy! Some of them spent the time alluding to, or even directly telling me, about THEIR problems. Examples: One told me about HER childhood. Another indicated to me, from the get-go, that she hated men; turns out her husband had cheated on her; when I disagreed with her, she told me that if a woman’s a victim of sex abuse she cannot trust men- I reminded her that I WAS NOT a victim of sex abuse; Her retort: THAt’s just how men are. oh gosh. Two other therapists would not speak during the sessions. I confronted one, (a marital counselor) who told me it was because ‘you and your partner” have so many things on your plate now’. I told her he & I could fight at home for free. Another male therapist was anti-Semitic (& he knew we were Jewish), complaining to us “My wife is nothing but a JAP!” I reminded him we were JEWISH, and he said “Oh, so am I, but it doesn’t mean anything to me. I converted for her parents”. The last thing he heard me say: ‘Its obvious it doesn’t mean anything to you. And that’s a shame”. My first therapist had borderline personality disorder – everything was dramatic; she wanted to be single, like me, so she could ‘seduce’ men; And when I cried in a session because my boyfriend treated me very badly, her screaming response: “You fucked up another relationship, didn’t you”!!! When I later told her, via telephone, that I wasn’t returning, she cried crocodile tears, moaning that “everyone leaves me. and now you are too”. When I saw another therapist, & told her I was depressed about how some relatives treated me, she said “And THAT bothers you??”! Yet another female therapist, when I told her about I guy I loved who broke off with me, by complaining he couldn’t “stand” being with me for even an hour, because I “interrupted him when he spoke” (yes, he DID say that). Her response: “How can anyone be with you, the WAY you are”! Oh, btw, she never bothered explaining what ‘way’ that was. What a bitch. Believe it or not, there are even more wierd therapist stories! Now, I read self-help books; they have helped me solve my problems MUCH more than therapists have. Plus they don’t tell me their problems, don’t degrade/insult me, are not prejudiced, and I have yet to find one who has a personality disorder.
As Jorobs reports, there can be huge flaws in the training itself. If that weren’t enough, there’s another large issue: what reality checks exist as the therapist’s practice progresses through the years?
We all evolve as people, and along the way can accumulate groundless notions. So if say, a therapist watches a television celebrity who peddles scolding and ahem, “tough love,” there’s little preventing the therapist from adopting this ill-conceived technique himself. Well yes, there’s client feedback or complaints. But we’ve seen how negating client feedback–attributing it to transference or resistance–is in the very foundation of the therapeutic theory.
Reharpen – hehe! Indeed, why are there so many therapists out there with personality disorders? Best thing I ever did was quit therapy and therapy training. I am now mixing with people who are NORMALwhatever that means!) which is so refreshing. My experiences of therapy were not dissimilar to yours – they were so patronising/belittling etc. No-one would want to spend any time in their company, let alone pay for it! It’s strange, but the last therapy session I had (she was a complete bitch too) when I paid her, she stared at me as I wrote out the cheque and I kind of felt humiliated – as though I had paid for a prostitute or something. I actually felt abused. I think she had deliberately set up a kind of authority figure/victim set up designed to keep me firmly in my place. A bit like the kind of dysfunctional set-up you get in a dysfunctional family, which is presumably the family system that quite a few therapists grew up in (hence they are attracted to therapy).
I was doing a counselling course at one stage and the experience was not much better – the course tutors were HORRIBLE. Scary, really, how unregulated the whole field is – even the teaching providers have personality disorders so imagine they are training a generation of dysfunctional therapists!
thank you guys so much! I feel so much better, knowing my experiences were more common than I thought. Jorobs, thanks for telling us the experiences in your counseling course. After I’ve told a few therapists re; my horrible experiences, they all tell me “well, you must be sure to choose a therapist who has gone through therapy herself”. HA! I always told them:
what if the therapist has, but HER therapist was screwed up too?! Never got a reply.
I really do think these problems are SYSTEMIC in the practice of therapy, especially 1) In choosing among the applicants whom the therapy schools decide to admit; 2) the fact that the actual individual therapy is done with ‘only’ the therapist and the client in attendance. I will address the latter when I have more time.
But as for deciding whom the schools choose to admit as students, seems that they follow the type of requirements of other professional schools: 1) Did they take the required prereqisites? 2) and notifiying the students that they must pay their tuition, etc.
I am a lawyer, but SORRY, being a good therapist should include much more than just this. Maybe set up a situation with the applicant and another person, the person tells them some problems they are having, and SEE how the student reacts. (Then secretly videotape this). It shouldn’t matter exactly what advice the applicant told them; they should watch HOW the applicant interacted with the other person. Did the applicant scream at her? Tell her her problems were insignificant? Start telling the other person the applicant’s OWN problems? Inform the other person that she should just “forget” the problems and watch television instead? (which one therapist actually did tell me, btw).
I know this isn’t the best or only way to choose who should undergo that program. But it is a START.
I think the first problem is the profession and individual therapists see themselves as experts, authorities, and most of them expect us to put ourselves in “their hands” in unconditional surrender.
This is utterly unhealthy for an adult, even if it were supernaturally possible for any therapist to hold some sort of transcended source of enlightenment.
Of course, no human being does, and authority/supplicant is an utterly harmful metaphor. It’s absurd and delusion the therapist presents himself this way.
I’ve found no evidence that therapists are more emotionally integrated nor have any more intelligence about Living Life than anyone else. In fact, they’re trained, they’re taught to remove themselves, codify and pathologize everything and everyone, I’m convinced they’re less in touch, as a group.
I further find this so-called medical model harmful as apply to therapy. Doctors can give us medicines to cure infections, for this is an objective thing. But no one can “heal” someone else’s soul.
Yes, agree! At best, a therapist could be a facilitator or ‘sounding board’. That’s it. I suppose a relationship with an enligtened therapist could end up being more than this…but then perhaps you could argue that it has moved beyond the therapy role into something else.
Very good point. So VERY ironic, that for an institution that emphasizes that their clients look at THEMSELVES, their own role in their problems, & seek to change to better their lives, that therapists DO NOT do this themselves. Instead, they blame ‘the other’ their clients, if a therapeutic relationship does not ‘work out’. If a client repeatedly blamed another person – whether it was their ex-spouse, parent, etc., – the therapist would ultimately NOT accept this.
I think the problem is with mental health practitioners is systemic. Professional literature convinces me they’re trained in a Crazyland–personality traits are illnesses they magically heal, non-compliance can indicate narcissism or some such nonsense, resistance is fear or even wanting to undermine the therapist, interpersonal conflicts are transference.
It’s like the distorted mirror room at the funhouse. But it’s no fun.
New blog site for Multiple Personalities Don’t Exist.
http://mentalhealthmatters2.wordpress.com/
Very insightful all of this. When the course tutor on the counselling course discovered that I was quitting the course prematurely he HAD to get his own back and have the last word. So he sent an assignment that I had done back to me by post (I hadn’t asked to have it sent to me and didn’t particularly care what grade I got/what comments he made as by then I had decided he was a total nutjob and nasty to boot). Anyway, he managed to be as vindictive as possible with lots of nasty little personal comments. Completely unprofessional. He didn’t focus on the work I had done from a professional point of view but simply used it as an excuse to personally attack me.
I can only assume that he took my leaving the course as a personal affront (well he was right from the point of view that I left because I didn’t like him as a tutor). But he lacked the stability, integrity and emotional intelligence to act like an adult. Instead, he behaved like a bully in a school playground who can’t get his own way and threw a nasty little temper tantrum at me.
How pathetic! I can only assume that he uses (and abuses) his role as an authority figure to try to meet his own distorted emotional needs. He probably has huge anger issues or something (certainly issues with women).
So glad I am out of it before my perceptions became even more distorted.
Yes – I am now totally non–compliant! How good that feels! Leave the lunatics in charge of the asylum…..
I notice that theory debates between therapists online quickly become quite vile. Maybe on some level they realize what they’re defending is fundamentally baseless. Jorobs, I glad freedom is exhilarating.
I’ve found for myself, how therapy, with its emphasis on unfairness, wounding and self-pity, left me less joyful and generous in my friendships. I’m focusing on undoing those poisonous lessons.
Link to the article–Is Psychotherapy Superstition? Another Gestalt victim. “Successful woo always aims at making itself impervious to criticism.”
http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2007/05/10/is-psychotherapy-superstition/#comment-18714
An interesting article. When a society gives authority to a group of people who lack social skills, suffer from serious mental illness or grandiose notions of superiority and shamanic powers, and intend to exploit and/or control their patients under the guise of providing help, damage will result. Psychiatrists in particular are given god-like status and are offended, and vindictive, if a patient dares to challenge their (mis)treatment, beliefs, interpretation and mystical projections or introjections, or say NO to their abuse, lies or sexual overtures… What is not supportive is destructive. If your life begins to unravel after beginning a new relationship then you need to trust your gut and get out. A good therapist will guide you into greater insight and better health and personal growth as opposed to medicate you into compliance, reduce you to an infantile position of dependence and strip you of the ability to function or trust your better judgement. The term “difficult” or “non-compliant” can be a manipulative way of trying to control someone who refuses to believe that black means white, or that abuse and manipulative coercion constitute the road to better health. Unfortunately an interaction with an unethical, incompetent, negligent, abusive, self-serving or exploitative therapist will leave a client with a lot of anger and mistrust that may impede them seeking the help that they deserve. A simple tip may be to ask whether you would care to form a relationship with this person if you chanced to meet them at a bus-stop. If not, trust your reservations and exit without any need for explanation. Just because a person presents as a therapist does not mean that they relate in an honest, open or healthy manner. Accept that in life there co-exists bad teachers, bad clergy and bad cops among the good, and therefore do not assume that all therapists will be good. As a client you reserve the right to shop for what suits and fits you best.
Thanks Chris. Some of us learned too late that we were blinded by the therapist’s mantle of authority. I agree the best strategy is to trust one’s gut. Therapy isn’t the answer for everyone.
Yes thanks for the additional comments and the link. Gut instincts are so important and I like the ‘person at a bus-stop’ tip. When I think back to the interview I had for the course, I remember my initial impressions of the course tutor were not good. In the very first instance I did not form a positive impression of him as a person. I remember my thought-process which was pretty much: ‘I don’t take to this person at all.’ I am not someone who necessarily makes quick impressions of people – I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and get to know them before forming an impression of the type of person they are. But in his case, I had a gut instinct which I should have listened to.
My gut instincts were proved correct from before the course even begun – the course administration had been unclear about various times and dates leading to my missing a few days early on. Rather than owning their part in the confusion (course admin was sloppy and continued to be so) the course leaders rounded on me with accusations of ‘lack of commitment’ using highly charged negative language and personal accusations.
I was pretty shocked, to be honest. I had imagined that part of the process of training for counselling would be that both tutors and students would explore and ‘own’ their part in any breakdown in communication. But apparently not. The fact that they had my money up front gave them considerable leverage which they were happy to exploit to the full. Were it not for that, I would not have started the course.
In fact, they took things even further by making some veiled threats that it would be difficult for me to integrate with the students because I had missed a couple of days. I was gob-smacked – not only had they twisted things around so that their disorganistion was somehow all my fault (which was bad enough) but they had then very clearly threatened that this would lead to the other students not accepting me.
So, they had effectively managed to create a ‘scapegoat’ – right from the very beginning. Nice! I trained as a school teacher and this is the type of bullying and scapegoating behaviour that even three or four year olds are taught is wrong and counter-productive to learning. Yet here we had adults encouraging this behaviour. I presume it was the only way they knew of gaining control of the group (though fear, distortion, threats of not being accepted by the group, divide and rule tactics).
So, effectively, what the course tutors were doing was acting out the role of the authoritarian (and dysfunctional) parents to keep the students in line. When another student was off sick for some time, the course tutors would encourage students to speak negatively about that person. When I remonstrated, saying that the person was not there to defend themselves and in any case we didn’t know what was going on, the course tutors were defensive and hostile.
I know for a fact that one of the course tutors was verbally abusive to her behind closed doors. What a crazy situation. Still, the link relating to training establishments in Scandinavia would appear to confirm my suspicions that what I experienced is not necessarily an isolated example. And I know that upthread I posted a link that was an article on this very problem – ‘dysfuntion in counselling training organisations’. Yes indeed – they churn out the dysfunctional counsellors of the future.
Very worrying indeed.
My instinct would have steered me away from the worst of my counselors was authoritative, but vacuous, at our first meeting.
The entire set-up feels calculated to remove the client’s judgment. I read counselors on the net who want their clients to suspend judgment, idealize them (to feel “safe”) and put our humbled, trusting selves in their masterful hands.
That’s the first problem. I don’t believe wizard/devotee is any road to health. As Jorobs insider view testifies, professionals are just as petty and nasty than (or maybe more so) than any other profession.
I just love these comments! Thanks so much for “if you met this person at a bus stop” would you have a relationship with him/her – that is it!
I want to explain that recently I have been attending a group (free, I might add) run by 2 life couches. I have gotten a lot out of it; they are very positive, upbeat people, who actually CARE about us as individuals. Also, I appreciate it being in a group setting – if I would ever feel that something is ‘amiss’ with one of the leaders – I can ask the others in the group for their thoughts.
Recently, I told someone about this group, and he chuckled “WHAT are their credentials, their training???” He explained that his Mom is a psychologist. I’ve decided to “come out of the closet” & told him that their training hasn’t done them much good, in my opinion. I told him 2 things: that if I broke my leg, & a doctor had to set it, there is a ‘standard’ way to do so; but if you go to a therapist, there are 50 ‘schools’ they can come from re: how to treat you. I also said that I & others have had a terrible time with therapists, and that is a huge problem in their field, training or no training. He just laughed at what I said, – but I am SO proud of myself. From now on, I will NOT hold back re: my experiences with this ‘profession’. Have any of you confronted people, as well??
Resharpen, “confronting” my therapist started the real trouble because often they are trained to filter what we say as an interpretation. So my objections weren’t viewed as real, they were resistance, or transference or distortion or some other diagnosis. We are “set up” to idealize them, and when we do, it indicates our narcissism. The conversation become a rigged game we can’t win because therapist are well- trained to invalidate complaints.
It’s great you had a good group experience. My worse experience was in a group where other members were too intimidated to challenge the stern therapist’s “authority.” Unfortunately, silence is a frequent response to a bully.
Chris’ “meet them at the bus stop” yardstick is useful in many instances. Thanks Chris. 🙂
resharpen, the “broken leg” analogy is spot on, in my opinion. You’re the only other person I know who has used this analogy. I appreciate how simple, yet accurate it is. Psychic wounds need to be taken care of in much the same way. When you have a broken leg, you don’t walk on it, but avoid situations that would make it worse and prevent its healing. And yet, many therapist encourage their patients to go into situations where the wounds become reactivated with the erroneous idea that it would be healing. Whenever my wounds were touched on in therapy, my therapist suddenly become silent and did not bring up the real cause of my suffering. I was left to hang out to dry, ironically much like my parents did. I’ve come to realize that my therapist was afraid of some of his own emotional reactions to me. A therapist, like a medical doctor, should be able to look at the gore, the bloody mess, and not shy away or become silent. They must be able to tell you how you ‘broke your leg’ and how to help you avoid breaking it again and definitely not lead you into situations that will hurt you more.
Oops, nyclucky is 1234nyc, I had forgotten my own handle.
Hi 1234nyc/nyclucky, hope you’re doing well.
I found revisiting, dwelling in old hurts to be nothing but a lesson in how-to-be-a-depressive. It was like living inertly in a pot to stew and cook, with no relief from the heat. My therapy-taught habit of demanding wound salve from the world would sabotage me. (To mix metaphors.)
I didn’t benefit from examining the hurts and deficiencies of childhood once I learned it wasn’t the fantasy I once imagined. I’m challenged how to go forward. My life skills, such as they are, are a constant work in progress.
My “healing” psychic wounds doesn’t come from therapy. It comes from the times I’m able to handle a difficult situation successfully.
I’m just thinking back to the start of the course with the creepy tutor. There was one session where he was responding to another student on the course, appearing to condone some pretty antisocial behaviour. I just couldn’t contain my anger – in any other setting his comments would have been unacceptable and it made me seriously question (yet again!) his integrity and personal characteristics.
I was also still angry about negative comments he had made about me missing some of the course, so I guess I wanted to have it out with him. When I pointed out that he appeared to be condoning bad behaviour, he started backing down and denying what he had said. He also tried to deflect the comments on to the student.
This was more evidence (as if I needed it) that he seriously lacked integrity and would lie in order to wriggle out of a difficult situation. It was stupid of him – I would have respected him so much more if he had opened up the discussion and explored what was going on and why. If he had ‘owned’ what he had said and explained the thought-process and invited a discussion, it could have been a really interesting session.
Anyway, I locked eyes with him and wouldn’t let him wriggle off the hook. I told him (bearing in mind there were 10 other people as witnesses) that he had said what he had said and that my gripe was with HIM not with the student. I could have taken the coward’s way out, pretended that I had heard wrongly and pinned it all on the other student but I wasn’t prepared to let him off the hook.
Boy – did he get his knickers in a twist. He didn’t make eye contact with me or any other student for the rest of the session. Rather like a rat caught in a sewer.
Sounds like an extremely fraught, political situation. Glad you’ve escaped and sorting it out. I know the confusion of realizing how everything was mislabeled.
Since I realized the “corruption” of therapy, I’ve tried to spend more time on pragmatic problem-solving. I think therapy taught me to churn and churn rather than to find the calmest way to deal with realities.
I hope I didn’t sound too challenging in my post above. But for me, therapy only encouraged me to cultivate my bad feelings and conflicts rather than find my way to the other side.
Congrats Jorobs, and the rest of you who have ‘confronted’ bizarre things therapists say, and/or who have found things, people, methods, etc., to help you instead of wasting time on nutty therapists.
ANother situation along these lines I faced was when I was in a women’s support (LOL) group, run by a psychologist who was doing this to get her required ‘hours’ of internship so she could be licensed. Most of us in the group were wanting to leave our husbands/boyfriends (mostly mentally abusive relationships), and many of the women in the group had married their high school sweethearts, etc., and were scared to go out in the ‘big scary world of dating.’. A few kept saying negative stereotypes of ALL men, & I argued with them about that, but with compassion for them. Altho I did not have their histories – I had dated a lot prior to marriage – I tried to put myself in their shoes.
Well, at the end of each session, the psychologist always said the same thing: to us, in a very serious voice: “You know, for women in our age group, for each available woman, there are so many fewer men who are available.” (She cited the actual numerical stats). btw – she would say this, even tho it had NO connection to whatever we had discussed in any session.
After about 3 sessions, I spoke to her privately, and told her that what she was always tellling us ‘didn’t help any of us in that group.’ Well, if LOOKS COULD KILL . . .i’D be one dead woman, that’s for sure. I think I also told her that all it took is for ONE man to like us, etc.
At the end of the next session, she turned to me and said in a mean voice: “I know you DON’T like statistics, BUT. . .” and began rattling off some other horrible ‘scary’ stat about dating, or something. I responded that it wasn’t that I didn’t like statistics, but that we need to use ones that could ” help us get into healthy relationships.” . You can imagine how much she loved me at that moment. Oh, btw, I never saw her again. She had two sessions left with us, & I told her I had to miss the last one. SO – when I came the next week, no one showed up! I called her & asked what had happened – she claimed that I had told her that I wouldn’t be at the second-to-last session, and that ‘few people would be able to show up”, so she had cancelled it. I told her it was the LAST session I had told her that I couldn’t come to, and all she said was ‘Oh’. No apology, nothing. Isn’t that interesting?? She probably hated me confronting her – I am sorry that I never told her supervisor about what she had said; but am proud I did tell HER. how I had felt. Obviously, the stats were HER expressing HER OWN FEARS. ONce again, so many therapists DO NOT look at themselves. For me it brings up yet other issues – is it MY ROLE to always confront these therapists when THEY act ‘bizarrely’?? ANd then is it my role to report what they said/did to their supervisors?? That idea just exhausts me! I was in that group to get help and support myself, period. I didn’t have the wherewithall to confront her, and then report her; and NEITHER SHOULD I HAVE HAD TO. I just don’t see why that profession doesn’t ‘heal itself’, and be the “Lookouts” for their own profession’s bizarre behavior. Why didn’t the supervisor ever attend any session, or even part of one?? WHY is it up to US, the patients, to have to ‘clean up’ therapists’ crazy behavior?? I don’t know about you guys, but I am damn tired of this; one therapist after another doing/saying/acting awful to their patients. We want help! We shouldn’t have to be the ‘helper’!!!
Its like you read my mind! You appear to understand a lot approximately this, such as you wrote the guide in it or something. I feel that you simply can do with some percent to pressure the message home a bit, however other than that, this is fantastic blog. A great read. I will certainly be back.
Sim Karte, thanks for your words. I’m a lay person, so have no access to percentages affected. I can only offer my personal viewpoint and argue that the benefit of my so-called treatment was quite opposite of my therapists’ perception. Many thread contributors have posted information and links, so there’s a lot here.
Resharpen, I’m sorry for what you went through, which has elements of my experiences. I learned the hard way that therapists are no more enlightened, aware of noble than the rest of the population. However, they seem to create this expectation, and I for one, was ambushed when my “guru” revealed his irrationality and anger.
There’s no magic training that grants therapists Life Wisdom. I think the next best thing is to question all the phony baloney and myths in the therapy relationship, so that two people meet on more realistic footing.
Loved this summary of a variety of misguided therapists:
http://psychgripe.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/therapist%20typology
Resharpen – yes indeed, the psychologist leading the ‘support’ group appears to have had a massive agenda of her own, which she was determined to push onto members of the group. Whatever happened to approaching a situation with an open mind, putting aside one’s own baggage? Not exactly rocket science. I also agree about the massive difficulty faced in confronting the therapist’s strange/unethical behaviour. In my experience, the therapist is not open to any level of criticism, even if it is constructive. When I have tried to point things out (diplomatically) the response has been defensiveness, anger, denial and so on. As you say, the thought of going through a formal complaints procedure is exhausting. If the individual therapist is going to react so strongly to any kind of feedback, imagine what kind of response one would get from a collective body of therapists? The mind boggles.
My experience of confronting a dysfunctional authority figure and blowing the whistle on her behaviour to the professional governing body (while undertaking a professional training course some years back) is that the institute will close ranks. The individual is in an excessively weak position. The supervisors/superiors are often aware of the problem (they certainly were in my particular case – the woman left a trail of destruction in her wake) but the reality is that it is quite difficult to get rid of rogue employees. (Not making an excuse here but simply pointing out the practicalities of the situation).
The strategy that the dysfunctional authority figure adopted (she was supposed to be my mentor – what a joke!) was that she would ensure that she had ‘meetings’ with her trainees in a private room, with a closed door. She would then proceed to verbally undermine/intimidate/threaten etc. I imagine that an abusive relationship would be a bit like that.
I was so shocked that I allowed her to undermine and humiliate me for probably an hour or more. The woman knew exactly what she was doing. She specifically trawled the building looking for a ‘private room’ so that there would be no witnesses to her behaviour. I remember at the time thinking: ‘I don’t want to be in a room on my own with you’. I found her behaviour very bizarre. Then she verbally assaulted me (can’t think of another way of putting it). I was shocked into silence. She only stopped her tirade when another person entered the room at which point I uttered the first words of the hour which were: ‘I’m not enjoying this meeting’. She deliberately misrepresented what I had said (for the benefit of the witness in the room) by stating: ‘Oh, I am very concerned that you are not enjoying working here’. To which I replied: ‘No – I am not enjoying this meeting.’ She then said: ‘Constructive critcism is part of the process’. I couldn’t think of anything to say – I was still in a state of shock (disassociation – I realised afterwards). Of course she knew that her criticism was far from constructive, this was a well-rehearsed ‘game’ (see the article that I posted upthread about ‘sadistic teachers’ – it explains the process quite well). She was someone who ‘got off’ on sadistic mind-games. I suppose you could write her off as a nutter, except she caused a huge amount of harm, not just to me but many others. But her ‘professional’ status gave her a cloak of respectability. I think this happens quite a lot with authority figures who abuse their position of power – in all sorts of fields.
For me, the result of her psychological manipulation was that I had what I suppose would be termed some kind of nervous breakdown. If only I had taped the meeting I would have had some hard evidence. But of course when I tried to explain what had happened to the governing body, they were hostile and defensive and blamed me telling me I should ‘change my perceptions’. What a crock of sh##. Interestingly, one of the first things they asked was whether there were any witnesses in the room. They knew exactly what her strategy was. Afterwards, I found out that this woman had a long string of similar incidents behind her and boasted that she always reduced her mentees to tears. Stupid cow.
Anyway, the purpose of this rather long story is that the complaints procedures are often rigged so that the individual – already in a weak position – is further undermined so that the dysfunctional authority figures (and quite often I imagine dysfunctional organisation) can protect itself against those who dare to blow the whistle.
I cannot imagine that the counselling industry/psychology profession would be any different and in actual fact I would imagine that it is probably even worse as those in it will be ‘expert’ at psychological tricks of the trade. Many will have gone in to the field because of their own issues, which may or may not be resolved. So there will be rogue practitioners, just like everywhere else, and whistle blowers are seldom welcome as they expose those dark secrets that many would prefer to remain hidden.
If you subscribe to the view that there is something inherently dysfunctional about the whole therapy industry, then a whistle-blower is likely to be even less welcome as they are not just exposing a rogue practitioner but a whole industry that needs a good shake-up.
This is the reason that I ended up leaving the counselling training course and not lodging a formal complaint. I was not prepared to further weaken myself with a protracted battle which I would never have been able to win. It would have been a kangaroo court, rigged from the start and I know that the course tutors were vindictive and nasty enough to enjoy the process so I decided to deny them that pleasure. There was no way they would have put their hands up and said: ‘yes, we are nasty and vicious and we haven’t resolved our own issues’. Rather than exploring their own ‘stuff’ they found it more congenial to pull apart the students – especially those with an ounce of independence or spirit.
Thanks for that link, disequilibrium, I can certainly recognise some of those characters!
Jorobs –
that is just horrible! You are right re: taping sessions with horrific, screwed up people like that so-called ‘counselor/trainer’. Look at what has changed, for example, in that ordinary people are using their cell phones to videotape police beating up people (remember the Rodney King case, etc.). If I EVER go into indivdual therapy again, or some nutty leader of “group therapy” says crazy things, I will DEFINITELY have a tiny, hidden tape recorder with me TURNED ON. Of course, even playing this for that person’s supervisor, etc., may NOT help, but at minimum, they will know that they are being ‘watched’/taped/videotaped, and that could change their behavior.
Also, I have an idea. The American Psychological Association’s annual convention is in Tampa, FL this year, in NOvember. I don’t live anywhere near there, BUT it would be wonderful if a group like ours picketed their convention & voiced our complaints, generally. I’ll bet the media would love to interview us.
I got this idea thinking back re: how other movements have been started – and often by only ONE person or a few people. I used to live in Chicago, and I remember over 20 years ago reading a newspaper interview of a Mom whose son had been abused by a priest. She started the first group to publicize this problem. At the time, many Catholics doubted her son’s experience, and the public thought, at best, that it had only happened to her son & no one else. She wouldn’t relent, her group grew, & we all know the rest of the story – it was shocking, but people begin to accept this as a problem. Along with our situations, there were no ‘witnesses’ to the abuse, but after victim after victim came out of the woodworks, no one could deny that the problem existed – in droves. (btw, I am not just ‘picking’ on Catholics! It happens in all religious groups).
Also, I still remember people picketing the conventions of the American Psychiatric Association – people who had had serious mental problems, & felt they had been badly victimized by the psychiatric industry. Their voices were finally heard (although I will admit, don’t know how much they ever affected that industry).
Anyway, any thoughts this way? After all, our problems are only the tip of the iceberg – so many ‘former clients’ have had rotten experiences with therapists. I guess I tend to be an activist, & think we should voice our problems more publicly. Perhaps we can picket state conventions of therapists, etc.?
Resharpen, it’s tough to raise awareness of therapy’s problems because therapists have such a well-honed arsenal and the public perception of authority. Critics are quickly “diagnosed” with some affliction and discredited. Even well-articulated and supported criticism by thinking professionals like David Smail and Tana Dineen are met with rage and discrediting by many of their peers. A UK therapist wrote a furious take-down of Anna Sands’ very insightful book, Falling for Therapy.
I know of a few professionals who deal directly with therapy victims and serve as a bridge to their profession. I can only plea with any professional reading blogs like this about the urgent need for client voices.
Thanks for your quick response – I am in the UK but the problem appears to be just as bad in this country, if my experiences are anything to go by. I would welcome collective action taken against practitioners who have abused their position of trust. So difficult to prove though. But, as you say, recording things at least provides evidence. If I had asked to record the feed-back session with my ‘mentor’ I imagine she would have been obliged to respond quite differently. She would not have been able to risk having hard evidence of her verbal abuse. But of course it would never have occured to me that I would need to do that in order to protect myself! The whole concept of a ‘mentor’ is someone who is in a guiding role so she took me completely unawares – I guess that is one of the hallmarks of this type of predator – they manage to completely disarm their victim. If I had been swimming in a lake full of piranhas at least I would have had my guard up!
Unfortunately, I have come across quite a few authority figures and professionals who have abused their positions of trust. It happens in all walks of life and, unfortunately, there will be those rogue pracitioners who hide under the cloak of professional respectability (the priests is a good example) in order to pursue their own, dark, agendas. It happens in medicine, law, the police, the church, politics and so on.
In the Uk at the moment, a good example of this type of situation is now being uncovered with allegations relating to the conduct of charity campaigner in the 70s and 80s, Jimmy Saville. Because he was a ‘do-gooder’ who raised lots of money for charity, he was considered beyond reproach (always a dangerous concept). It is alleged that he abused his position of trust to sexually assault young and vulnerable girls. People knew what was going on but chose to ‘turn a blind eye’ and, in a way, who can blame them? As I wrote above, the whistle blower is seldom welcomed – not by the establishment at any rate – and it is quite often a case of ‘shoot the messanger’.
That has certainly been my experience. I have attempted to fight a few battles with various establishments over the years and the result has always been the same. Ranks close and the ‘victim’ is further punished and victimised for having the audacity to have spoken up.
One would like to have thought that counselling/therapy might provide a final refuge for those, like myself and no doubt thousands of others, who have found themselves at the mercy of other people’s cruelty and abuse of power. But, as this blog has rather powerfully illustrated, it seems that, even when compassion is most desperately needed, there are still those who will stoop low enough to be predatory to those who are at their most vulnerable.
Correction: I was wrong re: the APA National Convention; It was already held last August, 2012, in Orlando FL. and:
HA! I FOUND THE FOLLOWING TWO ‘WORKSHOPS’ THAT WERE GIVEN AT THE LAST AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION CONVENTION:
1) Ethics and Law for the Practicing Psychologist
Description
This vignette-based INTERMEDIATE workshop addresses ethical decision making, the relationship between ethical and clinical decision making, and ways to minimize exposure to ethical liability. The workshop views the APA Ethics Code as a tool to aid in resolving complex ethical dilemmas, rather than as a laundry list of ethical requirements and prohibitions. Focus is on ethical standards relevant to clinical practice, including standards especially likely to relate to a jurisdiction’s law and regulations. The program emphasizes how psychologists can use ethics codes.
Learning Objectives
1. Identify a process for resolving legal and ethical dilemmas,
2. Describe the relationship between a psychologist’s legal and ethical obligations,
3. Identify areas that present special legal and ethical concerns to practicing psychologists,
4. Identify concrete steps for psychologists to minimize their exposure to legal and ethical liability,
5. Describe the relationship between clinical practice and legal and ethical risk management, and
6. Identify a process for applying clinical principles to emerging or novel professional practice situations.
2) Malpractice — A Practical Guide for Psychologists
Description
IN RECENT YEARS THERE HAS BEEN A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF MALPRACTICE ACTIONS FILED AGAINST PSYCHOLOGISTS!
Many practitioners find themselves RUNNING SCARED when confronted with this litigation. There is however, an important distinction between a suit and a successful suit. The elements of protecting oneself against a successful malpractice action are in fact fairly straightforward: careful clinical work, informed consent, adherence to the standard of care, careful documentation, and consultation. This INTERMEDIATE workshop clarifies these concepts and shows how to implement them.
Learning Objectives
1. Apply the concept of informed consent to your practice,
2. Apply the standard of care to your practice,
3. Utilize assessment and treatment techniques that demonstrate adherence to the standard of care,
4. Document records that demonstrate adherence to the standard of care,
5. Compare alleged damages to various treatment approaches,
6. Evaluate contacts against the concept of professional relationship, and
7. Evaluate diversity issues as they relate to malpractice.
The American Psychological Association is lying about psychotherapy, as it in two cartoon films claims that psychotherapy does not have (bad) side effects.
http://t.co/FEJ1zI5R
http://t.co/b9QG7PJJ
Sigrum – thanks – I will definitely look at these.
you are so right! When I went on the American Psychological Association;’s website, on their home page, they cited some ‘study’ claiming that people who get therapy get ‘better’ than those who don’t, and cite stats. What cracked me up is that their best stats were those FROM CLIENTS WHO HAD STAYED IN THERAPY FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS! Well, that makes sense – in my case, if a therapist was an ignoramus/meanie/kinow-nothing, etc., I LEFT BEFORE SIX MONTHS!!! This group just won’t look at themselves. They also keep quoting the ‘standard of care’, and altho I know it is hard to pin down, they really don’t explain at all what that means in any narrow way. I mean, they could define it as ‘not screaming at your client’, but don’t even do that. They live in a really la-la land of their own choosing.
There are so many problems proving the effectiveness of therapy because how do you measure the quality of a human life? I was convinced therapy was working until I years later I realized it was a shared folly.
So true. What we, the victims, can make public is the BASIC things that therapists did to us which were destructive. Like: screaming at their clients; telling the clients the therapists’ own problems; sitting in silence throughout (or during most of) the sessions; repeatedly “accusing” the clients of being ‘horrible and/or being the sole cause of why their relationships, or aspects of their lives, can’t work out, etc.
These are basic, common-sense things that a therapist should NOT do.
I do think we should become activists, and get the destructive therapists OUT of the closet!
One thing is making a state law that before a person begins therapy, they MUST be given an info sheet very similar to the one in California (called ‘consumer guide’ or something). It must be signed by BOTH the therapist and the client, and the client must be given a copy.
If you guys haven’t seen it, let me know, and I’ll post a copy of that sheet. It explains basic rights which a client has, including the right to make a complaint (and the tel. no.), etc.
I found therapy a dangerous trap by leading me to believe it magically was a refuge from the destructive forces of human nature. I learned a hard lesson that therapists are just as subject to arrogance, pride and the need to control as the general population, if not more so.Professionals should stop presenting themselves as the unselfish, evolved beings and admit they’re playing a purchased role. Then consumers can employ them on an honest, realistic basis.
Resharpen, those professional ethical discussions convey the therapist’s interest to protect his own hide and avoid “the appearance” of impropriety. Years ago the APA had a professional hotline to call “at the first sign of trouble.” The blaring omission is the damage done to client in a therapeutic rift. No matter which party is at fault, no matter who is distorting reality –which can be the therapist as readily as the client–the therapy experience was a failure if the client is distressed enough to turn to litigation.
I suggest therapists worry less about avoiding the APPEARANCE of impropriety and worry more how to avoid provoking their clients’ feelings of powerlessness.
Sigrun, I find those APA-sanctioned cartoons unethical on so many levels. It’s unconscionable they state therapy has “no side effects”after the January 2010 issue of their own journal had several articles exploring harmful therapy. Then they state their treatment is “proven effective” for depression and stress. Just as bad are the implied promises covered with dodgy phrases like “may help.” They’re implying the moon here, relief from depression, stress, improved relationships and health, living your best life.
These ads hold the danger of setting the client up to expect miracles and depicting the therapist in a guru image he can’t possibly fill.
On Twitter I sent them tweets and posted links to the cartoons and to articles in their journal about harmful therapy.
Will they reply to me?.
That will be interesting to see. The cartoons satirize the idea of a panacea to life’s problems, then, paradoxically, present therapy as a (slightly qualified) panacea to life’s problems. Their manipulative appeal exploits human frailty. There’s barely a difference between these and those cheesy ads for some lifestyle improvement on late-night TV.
Here it is: (I would add more info citing examples of specific boundary issues, and sexploitation).:
Patient Bill of Rights
Patients have the right to:
Request and receive information about the therapist’s professional capabilities, including licensure, education, training, experience, professional association membership, specialization and limitations.
Have written information about fees, payment methods, insurance reimbursement, number of sessions, substitutions (in cases of vacation and emergencies), and cancellation policies before beginning therapy.
Receive respectful treatment that will be helpful to you.
A safe environment, free from sexual, physical and emotional abuse.
Ask questions about your therapy.
Refuse to answer any question or disclose any information you choose not to reveal.
Request and receive information from the therapist about your progress.
Know the limits of confidentiality and the circumstances in which a therapist is legally required to disclose information to others.
Know if there are supervisors, consultants, students, or others with whom your therapist will discuss your case.
Refuse a particular type of treatment, or end treatment without obligation or harassment.
Refuse electronic recording (but you may request it if you wish).
Request and (in most cases) receive a summary of your file, including the diagnosis, your progress, and the type of treatment.
Report unethical and illegal behavior by a therapist (see “Your Reporting Options,”).
Receive a second opinion at any time about your therapy or therapist’s methods.
Have a copy of your file transferred to any therapist or agency you choose.
I definitely think a therapy consumer guide is a great idea, I’d add that consumers should receive realistic information about what to expect and warning signs (side effects) of bad therapy. When we receive a prescription it’s always accompanied with that information.
It looks like the @APAHelpCenter on Twitter has decided not to answer me.
Yesterday I also commented on a blog, but they haven’t published my comment (yet). http://www.yourmindyourbody.org/talking-to-your-physician-about-psychotherapy-therapyworks/
I view the APA’s publicity as perpetuating an unrealistic mythology around therapy. This mythology encourages a dependency and uncritical awe which is ripe for abuse.
I occasionally have commented on or questioned therapists on the web. With a few exceptions, they take into the authoritarian tone, interacting as if I were their “patient.” It’s interesting to see their strategies to maintain power.
Sigrun – unfortunately, dis. is correct. They won’t deal with you – they take the ‘macho’/power stand.
Again, the best way is for us to become activists. Picket the APA, etc.,conventions, write to the ‘general media’, and try to get laws passed, as I suggessted, which requires that each therapy consumer is given a list of his/her ‘rights’ before the first therapy session.
The APA never published my blog comment, nor gave me any Twitter-reply. Are these people therapists?
It seems a rare when official bodies, like the APA , even acknowledge the hazards of therapy. The paradox of this spot is that it makes therapy sound like the Fixitall they parody. All happy talk and promotion, just like an cheesy TV commercial.
Feel free to share what you wanted to post here, if you’ve saved them and are so inclined.
disequilibrium1–Thank you for describing the bad experiences you’ve had with prior therapists. I myself am a Licensed Professional Counselor and I’ve sat on both sides of the therapy office.
My experiences…
One therapist–an LCSW–told me I should leave my wife (we’ve been faithfully married 18 years and going strong–no way!)
Another–a psychologist–spent the first 1/4 of our session talking to me from the kitchenette in his office, while he made himself an espresso, then spent the other 3/4 of the session talking about himself…I hardly got a word in.
When he did the same thing in the second session I decided that was enough.
He called me several weeks later to ask what happened. I told him…
“Doc, after two sessions I know more about you than you do about me!”
His only response was to chuckle and say, “Yeah, I do tend to talk a lot, don’t I?”
All I can say is, I don’t roll that way. I do a lot of listening, but it’s empathetic listening. Which means I take careful note of what my client is saying and reflect back to him/her so they know I’m listening and that I get it.
I collaborate with each client to set goals and formulate a treatment plan, which is my accountability to them for results.
I also eschew the diagnostic labels as much as managed care lets me. Let’s face it, the same person can go to three different “experts” and end up with three different diagnoses!
In my world, clients are whole persons and I never let them forget it. Our goal is to help them fully embrace their whole selves so that they might purge the demons that hold them back and move on with their personal growth.
I attribute my approach to the counselor education I received. I think counselors on the whole are more holistic and person-centered than are psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers, whose trainings are more grounded in the traditional medical model.
I wish you well in your journey of personal growth, despite your unfortunate sojourn through “therapy hell.”
James, the lousy therapists I encountered had ALL kinds of training – including ‘counselor education’. I think whether a therapist is good or bad depends on the individual person – listen, you can teach someone to be ‘more holistic and person-centered’, etc. BUT, in the end, if a person needs to just hear him/herself talk, wants the client to solve the therapist’s problems, is a racist and/or anti-Semite (happened to me), or has a personality disorder of some sort and uses clients for their own ‘needs’ (happened to me too) THEIR TRAINING DOESN’T MATTER. I know – I’ve been there. btw – when I;’ve told psychologists of my bad experiences with therapists, they tell me that ‘they have the best training’, and MSWs DO NOT have good training. Then when I tell MSWs of the same experiences they have told me that ‘psychologists spend too much time in school and can’t be as good a therapist as we are’. And I’ve heard this sort of thing from EVERY type of therapist there is. Instead, they should all be aware that no matter the specific training, jerk therapists are jerk therapists, and all these fields need to take the same long look at themselves. Teach their students common sense & politeness – for starters.
James, I appreciate you considering the issues. I agree with Resharpen that common sense and politeness (and authentic person-to-person) respect should be at a relationship’s foundation. Guiding another human being is an artful skill, because mentoring easily becomes a double-edged sword. It turns harmful if it fosters dependency or idolization, or the counselor needs to prevail. I fear that so much theory, as well as the medical model, can train therapists to distort and invalidate client communication.
Resharpen–Well said! It really does boil down to how grounded the therepist is in their own psyche.
One of my struggles.was finding a therapist who wasn’t “cuckoo for Coco Puffs” so I could do my own work. Fortunately I finally found one.
What I hope to gain from this blog is to keep focus on the client side of therapy, so that I can be of assistance in helping people help themselves.
Again, thanks for the great feedback!
James beyond the echo chamber of unreal theory can be the issue of what’s authentically best for the client. There are therapy client forums on the web that express crazy-obsessive hero worship of therapists. Their therapy seems to have taken over their lives. I wasn’t that extreme in my early 30s, but I was child-like far past my expiration date, despite having a responsible job and life. I expected the process to be mystical, and the therapist to be a wise wizard. Unfortunately my therapists encouraged and fed on my adulation.In other words, the very set-up of therapy was detrimental and dangerous and the eventually nasty therapists were the icing on top. Even the “kind” therapists were harmful, because the relationships were not real.
Mentoring is a balancing act.
disequilibrium1 — I think you’re spot-on. The therapeutic relationship should NEVER be subordinate but rather collaborative. Carl Rogers advanced this idea with the so-called “client-centered approach.”
Oddly, the one video I saw of him in session with an actual client, he made her pretty uncomfortable by interpreting every slight body movement. It was creepy. And I’d hardly call it collaborative.
The good news is that current research strongly suggests that the most important component of counseling or therapy is not so much technique as it is the quality of the therapeutic relationship.
I do hope your blog draws in therapists/counselors who desire to be competent. Although I’ve only been subscribed for a couple of days now, I find the posts to be a great reality check for me as a helping professional.
James, I’m so glad you find useful content here. And I once again thank everyone who has made this such a thoughtful discussion.
I appreciate the balancing act, because the signals of social dominance are subtle. A therapist can offer feel-good encouragement non-stop, but if this is in between indications that the therapist owns the wisdom –holding the “reality” for instance– the overall take-home message is client inferiority. Therapist talk about power inequality, that it can be used for good or bad. But the inequality itself can a harmful overarching message.
The first thing I wish my therapist had told me is that there’s are only certain things therapy can do. If I had started with realistic expectations my experience might have been very different.
James Genovese. Thank you for your heartfelt comment and for sharing your experiences on both sides of the couch. I am very critical of psychotherapists who tear down their patients and make them dependent upon them. You help restore some hope for your/our profession. I appreciate knowing people like you are out there putting the patient’s needs first. Best Jeanette Bartha
Jeanette–Thanks for your kind words. Truth be told this is a unique field in that it’s a delicate blend of art and science.
Being an effective therapist, IMHO, is a daily…maybe hourly…walk. You have to constantly ask yourself, what is my client needing at this moment? How do I respond in a way that is supportive and encouraging? That hopefully elicits change talk **from the client** as opposed to my spoon feeding it to them.
This is particularly important with so-called “mandated clients”–people who were forced to come to me either by a legal entity or a spouse or loved one. Usually the salient issue is substance abuse (I say “salient” because more often than not people who abuse substances have other issues they’re wrestling with as well).
One approach that I like–and which I think is rather congruent with what is advocated in this forum–is called Motivational Interviewing. You discuss with the client what he/she sees are the pros as well as the cons of their using substances and then figure out together how they can reducing their use. This is as opposed to the traditional approach of telling them they absolutely must quit.
I also tell the client that while their substance use might have brought them to me, any other issues or concerns they might have can be grist for our mill…as they so choose.
The other thing I ALWAYS do is remind them that to me they’re not an addict…they’re a human being. Why? Because I want them to start perceiving themselves as whole persons who are much more than their addictions. I could talk more about this rationale, but perhaps that’s better left for another post.
Again, thanks for your feedback.
James, I’d think one of the delicate parts of helping someone is the “easy” thing he might appear to want is not always best in the long run. When I went to therapy, welcomed the mother figure cooing sympathy. While I don’t subscribe to the drill-sergeant, a$$-kicking thing (seems some therapists use Dr. Phil’s scolding playbook) I would have done better reinforcing problem-solving strategies and competence. I think I expected that reviewing my past would result in some miraculous cleansing and transformation into a different woman with fabulous wavy hair.
I can see what you mean by separating the addiction from the person. He must feel bad enough to have fallen in mandated treatment.
Hi, I commented very early in this post: I was wondering if I could now get some feedback on this article I wrote about what works in thereapy? http://stevetaylorcounsellor.com/2010/07/10/counsellor-guidelines-for-best-practice-when-working-with-counselling-clients/
Hi Steven–I read your article and certainly agree with the conclusions of the researchers you cite, concerning the importance of the therapeutic relationship trumping any theoretical model in determining successful client outcomes.
Along those lines, let me offer this…there are instances when employing a specific technique is also critical. For example, helping a client reduce or eliminate PTSD symptoms through eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR), systematic desensitization, or other trauma-specific interventions.
But there as well, you must first establish a client-centered, collaborative and supportive relationship with your client in order for those techniques to be effective.
I’m happy to report that in my counselor education program here in the States, much attention was given to the trans-theoretical approach to counseling…with an emphasis on providing–in Rogers’ words–unconditional positive regard and on self-examination of our own issues, biases, etc.
Thanks for sharing this erudite and relevant article!
Steve – I did read your article, and I do want to thank you for it. I liked when you wrote: ” . . . “Negative Counsellor Behaviours” had the strongest hindrance factor for clients, recording the highest average cluster rating of 3.66 for client hindrance for the study (1 = not at all hindering; 5 = extremely hindering).
The top 10% n= 8 of the total aspects recorded (n = 80) related directly to this cluster. “Insufficient counsellor direction” ranked 9th, and “Lack of counsellor responsiveness” ranks 10th – 12th in terms of hindrance for clients to the counselling process;” You also noted that “Therapist factors” being up to nine times as potent as model or technique factors “.
I am really glad that your research echoed what has been my experience with therapists. Often, after I had yet again, ANOTHER bad therapist, my friends who are therapists would ask me “What theory did they adhere to?” Often the therapist said she was ‘eclectic’ . PLUS I told my friends what I posted here the other day – which is borne out by your study, actually, that the RELATIONSHIP with the therapist was far more important that the type of therapy being practiced. I mean, what particular theory of therapy tells you to scream at your clients, or be mean to them? With one of my screwy therapists, who ALWAYS put down men (as a group), I strongly challenged her ‘viewpoint; and her very forthright reply was “That’s just how they are, and that is that!”. I guess that was the ‘hate men they are all schmucks’ type of therapy they must teach in therapy programs.
Also, once again, what your article states so well, is that in the research you found, what is most important to clients, is that therapists be ‘kind’ & ’empathic’, listen, and not judge. etc. To me, these are just commonsensical ways you must relate to people whom you are serving in the ‘helping professions’. But, as many say, ‘common sense is not too common’, so I guess we must actually TEACH these ways of relating, to therapists,in their training. Gee Whiz.
Steve, thanks for your revisit. Anyone, particularly those with professional training?
As an individual who processed a crazy home, but not abuse, I found damage into dwelling in past/present connections beyond understanding that childhood was not the perceived fairy-tale. Stagnating in the past taught me to be more depressed. My personal evolution has come from mastery, problem-solving, goal-setting and time’s passage. It’s much happier to live in the present with a gaze toward the future.
disequilibrium1. Your thoughts about how therapy can take over a persons life are well expressed. That is the key to the work I do – exposing potentially harmful therapies and showing how destructive and idol worshiping they become. Quite a damaging scenario & a most wasteful use of ones precious time on this earth.
p.s. I am compelled to make a correction. I have no right imposing my values onto someone else’s therapeutic choices. If people want to spend their lives in therapy believing, for example, that they have multiple personalities – they have that right. I just think educating the public about psychotherapy issues from both sides of the couch are crucial to us all.
I’ve been unable to find reading about how therapy offers clients a new cognitive framework and its effects. I believe this framework even teaches clients to pathologize THEMSELVES.
This paradigm is striking when I read blogs and forums by therapy clients. I wonder if these forum posters actually feel normal emotions which they were taught to see as terrible symptoms of something.
I also read accounts of ex-clients fleeing harmful therapy, yet simultaneously defining themselves like a harmful therapist would. I explore this from my own responses as I struggle sometimes to extract myself from the nautilus shell of therapy-think.
Thank you, Disequilibrium1, for your eloquent initial article and your helpful blog. You put into words so many subtle things that I felt too but found hard to express: “mystique of the psychotherapist”, “disdain”, “bruising dismissals”, “sarcasm, intimidation and berating are labeled as treatment”, “no means yes because the therapist sees me as the helpless child”.
Although it’s going back about 30 years, I would like to share my negative experience. My situation before therapy was similar to yours in some respects in that, like you, I was getting on O.K. in many aspects of life and was reasonably cheerful. I had moved from England to the French-speaking part of Switzerland about 3 years earlier, and there married a medical student from Eastern Europe. A visit from my parents triggered some problems in our marriage, which were mostly related to our cultural differences, and I thought it would be helpful to talk things over with somebody. I was not seeking psychotherapy, and actually wanted to avoid it because I had a background in cognitive science and knew that there were serious differences between British and Continental approaches tp psychotherapy. I therefore went to a person we had been told was a marriage counsellor. My wife was wary but decided to come too, so we went together, like animals into a trap.
We only discovered much later that the “therapist” was not a standard marriage counsellor but a half-trained “systems therapist” whose only formal qualification was in engineering. Systems therapy was at that time (1980) a kind of sect within clinical psychology and psychiatry that drew its inspiration from the totally wrong view that schizophrenia was a disease of the family. Their idea was that families create a “scapegoat” who is subtly pushed into disease by the other members of the family who are unconsciously motivated to make the scapegoat ill. So the therapy focused on blaming the healthy members of the family who were, according to the theory, the true cause of the problem. If they refused to accept that they were causing the disease, they were further criticised for resisting the therapy. Even in the heyday of systems therapy (around 1960) this view of schizophrenia was controversial, and it is now abandoned by mainstream psychiatry. But in the 1970s and 1980s systems enthusiasts were extending their approach to other areas such as marriage relationships. Couples’ therapy based on systems theory became fashionable among private therapists, although academic psychologists complained that the results were dismal and failed to confirm the underlying theory. Today, systems therapists still exist but their views tend to be less dogmatic and less extreme than in the 1960-1980 period.
Partly because of linguistic misunderstanding (we communicated in French, which I spoke badly), the therapist got the mistaken idea that my wife was the scapegoat, which caused him to be very aggressive to me. He blamed all our problems on me to break the supposed scapegoat situation. His main criticism of me was that I thought my wife was the problem-person (I didn’t, but I did emphasize her problems to counteract his unilateral blaming of me). After 8 sessions he finally toned down his aggressivity towards me when I threatened to leave, and he brought in his wife (who had no knowledge of counselling) to change the dynamics of the sessions.
He was less aggressive from then on, but still criticized me repeatedly for being too logical and too self-controlled. He himself had a very quick temper, and in fits of anger made spiteful remarks, which he said was good because it was real communication of true emotions, unlike my cold self-control. He maintained that uncontrolled communication of all emotions is the secret of a successful marriage, and said that I should become more like him in this respect. Another thing that annoyed me was his way of imposing himself as the ultimate expert in all areas of life, even where he had no specialized knowledge at all). On any subject (social history, psychiatry… anything) he would close the discussion by saying “I can assure you that…”. My wife and I became more and more reluctant to continue because our marriage seemed to be getting worse, not better, as a result of the so-called therapy, but he was very persuasive. After about 18 sessions he declared that my ignorance showed up only too clearly by the fact that I thought he was a marriage counsellor. “I’m, not”, he said, “You should have realized that I’m far more than a counsellor. I’m your psychotherapist, and I’m glad to say that despite your resistance I am in the process of transforming your personality.” I realized to my horror that by his constant pressure he had indeed to some extent succeeded in changing me, but in ways that seemed to me negative (I later learned that my wife agreed with my evaluation. She told me privately that the therapy had changed me from being a good but reserved Englishman to a neurotic Frenchman; she said she preferred the French to the English, but thought the change in me was for the worse). I immediately said that I hadn’t requested psychotherapy and didn’t want it, but this was condemned as yet another sad manifestation of my resistance. I then requested that the sessions be brought to a close as quickly as possible (I feared that an immediate departure might be too disruptive). He said we would need three more sessions, but at the start of the next one my wife said she was worried that three might be too much as the therapy was doing more harm than good. After further disagreements, I announced angrily that I was leaving. It was at that moment that the therapist became really furious and switched to deliberate vengeance.
Just as I was walking out, he called me back and asked me to stay for some final words. I obeyed. He then used all the weapons in his armoury to humiliate and crush me. For example, he said it was a pity I wasn’t staying for a few more sessions, because he could have revealed to me numerous bad things about my relationship with my father. “What a pity!” he said gloatingly, “Now you’ll never know.” These and many similar statements showed me that he relished being in a position of power and domination. Afterwards, I wrote a letter complaining that the therapy had done more harm than good, and he retaliated by telephoning me to make more vengeful remarks.
By now, I was truly traumatized, and for the first time in my life I felt I needed psychotherapy. But I was too frightened to renew the experience, and for a year or so I just suffered mental pain. Then, I finally dared to consult a psychotherapist, and fortunately found one who was helpful. He was a university psychology professor, who understood the differences between British and Continental psychology, and, unlike the systems therapist, was able to understand my views and discuss with me constructively. We analysed together the damaging therapy I had undergone, and he explained the numerous errors that had been committed. He said that so many errors could not have been committed by a fully trained psychotherapist, and it was only after this that I discovered the systems therapist was indeed only partly trained (at a non-university institution), and had never passed an exam or obtained any formal qualification in psychology or counselling or marriage therapy.
My wife correctly pointed out that I was partly responsible for the disastrous consequences of the therapy. I was the one who had contacted the therapist. She came along, but said from the start that it would do no good, and she was right. I sometimes wonder why I did not leave earlier. Part of the reason was probably that, isolated from my family and friends in a foreign country, I felt a desperate need for someone to talk to. My friends in Switzerland were all friends of my wife, and I didn’t feel I could speak to them about our difficulties, so I became dependent on the therapist. Also, the sessions were not all destructive; some may even have helped us. It was only at the very end, when I dared to leave against his will, that the therapist became really vengeful.
The wounds have taken a very long time to heal. On the other hand, my wife and I have managed to sort out many of our difficulties, and we have had the joy of bringing up two daughters who have been a source of immense joy. Our marriage has survived the ravages of therapy.
Swiss Brit: So sorry that you went through that horrible experience. Be assured – that even tho you went thru it 30 yrs ago, to your mind, it might have been yesterday. Many of My experiences with therapists have shown me that if one of them wants Power & wants to ‘command’ others, they will do ANYTHING to try to achieve that. Its like oxygen to them – as if they can’t breath without being ‘Powerful’ over others. To my mind, being a therapist brings a unique opportunity for those who ‘feel weak’ to, in their minds, momentarily ‘overcome’ that by trying to ‘force’ their clients to ‘listen & follow’ their powerful commands, In many cases, the therapists are true narcissists, and in your case, sounds like your therapist really fit the bill.
To look at this in more depth, people in other fields who have this ‘problem’, and try to be powerful over others often meet roadblocks. They usually work with others – whether it is at a corporation, or even if they work with only others they consider subservient to them – like at a medical practice where they have nurses or assistants, or in law, where you have a secretary or paralegal. In other words, there are ‘witnesses’ to their behavior. Whether there are supervisors who can ‘discipline’ them, or colleagues who can tell them their behavior is terribly wrong (or who let their supervisors know of this crazy behavior). I used to work at a state agency which disciplined the licenses of doctors, nurses, etc, All the time, I saw complaints against these professionals brought by their nurses, former patients, colleagues, etc.
BUT how does a therapist work? ALONE. There are NO witnesses to what he or she says to the patient. And – if someone does try to take some kind of action against a therapist – the therapist can just deny it. And I saw this at my old job too – former patients can complain to a licensing board, and the therapist denies it; there are no witnesses, so no discipline.
In your case, it is telling to me that the so-called ‘therapist’ eventually brought his wife into your sessions. I have found that when a therapist absolutely ‘needs’ to be powerful, that he or she ALSO must have people ‘agree’ that the therapist’s life is ‘perfect’, because then the therapist can show the patient ‘completely’ WHY the patient must obey the therapist’s ‘powerful commands’. Also, the fact there was a serious ‘linguistic problem’ YET the therapist ignored it, rather than refer you to an English-speaking doctor, shows just HOW MUCH he Needed to feel powerful – he couldn’t lose you, Plus, how powerful he must have felt to have a patient who couldn’t understand everything he was saying – he REALLY held the keys to the kingdom then. And then, when you announced you were leaving, of course, ALL HELL broke loose – for him. These therapists (desperately) rely on ‘commanding’ their patients in order that the therapist feel powerful – so if a patient says: 1) what you are doing is not working; 2) I am leaving, The therapist feels incredibly threatened – as their psyche is so ‘weak’ – they feel like they are coming close to death psychologically. So – at all costs – they must reassert their ‘Power’ – of course, he screamed at you, and later had to get ‘the last word’ – in their mind, reassuring themselves as to how ‘right’ they were & how ‘wrong’ you were – and that it is purely due to ‘your issues’ that the therapy ended; They, of course, are perfect.
I give you & your wife so much credit for picking up the pieces, and having the great relationship you were always meant to have. If that crazy therapist could see you two now, sure he would ignore the truth, & decree that your relationship could be ‘so much better’ if they would have stayed in therapy with him.
I was married to a narcissist (tho he wasn’t a therapist). It is Impossible to have a relationship where they truly listen to your concerns, or any criticism of anything they have done. to have a therapist who was a narcissist – you aptly showed how horrible that could be.
Resharpen: Many thanks for these comments. Yes, my therapist’s narcissism and desire for power were clearly important elements. I also wonder whether his behaviour was affected by a feeling of insecurity due to his being unqualified.
I agree with resharpen’s observation that the therapists I’ve met, underneath the forced empathy performance, often seem on a huge power trip. Analyst Karen Horney writes about the “idealized self,” the self-image we desperately fight to protect and preserve. It seems too many therapists hold themselves as magical healers and rescuers, yet with no abilities to earn this unrealistic self-definition.
It’s horrifying to look at many therapists’ websites. They literally promise to deliver happiness, fulfilled relationships, to be more fully alive. I assume they do that because they believe their own publicity. But in truth, how can that be accomplished?
With the benefit of hindsight I look at who I was when I entered therapy, what I expected and what the therapist led me to believe he would deliver.
The therapist was so invested in his superiority over me, I don’t think he understood my most prominent deficiency–my deference. Meanwhile, I held out in therapy hoping it would transform me, magically, into another person. Neither of us understood what I could change and what I couldn’t, nor did we begin to sort out what and wasn’t even a problem.
swissbrit, I’m glad your wife, your marriage and you emerged and thrived after such a destructive experience. I definitely feel the parallel –a therapist lashing out in wounded pride when his brilliant theory fails to hold. And going on all out attack at the rejection of his beneficent care.
I fully understand why I stayed for eight months and let the therapist convince me to stay for six very punishing weeks at the end. (Like you, I was served threats and taunts during that period as the therapist pretended to hold some astounding secret I one day would receive.) Author Marilyn Peterson writes about our life-long conditioning to trust and obey authority figures, and most of us see therapists in this category. I also held a lifelong assumption that most accredited professionals, the lawyer, the orthopedist etc. follow their protocols for my benefit. Just as the endocrinologist reads the lab results and recommends more Vitamin D, I assume the psychologist listens, observes and applies appropriate treatment.
Little did I understand that psychotherapy has no professional parallel to reading blood test results. I’m now convinced the foundation of therapy seems built on nothing but intuition and faith healing. How else could some of these kookie fads propagate.
Like you, my most destructive therapy happened decades ago, leaving me in an quandary. Either I believe the therapist’s dismal assessment of me-the contemptible woman who alienated everyone and couldn’t perceive reality–or my sessions had been nothing but a professionally sanctioned scam. Both options left me bruised and vulnerable.
By the way, my angry, vengeful therapist earned his PhD at one of America’s top universities. His methodology was sloshy and aimless, but by no means kookie. He remains his practice, his website boasting of the many clients he has guided on a path to happiness. ( An internet friend by chance crossed paths with him and found him to be the same arrogant jerk.)
It’s taken me decades, but I’ve settled on the reality that I had been scammed, just as if someone on the New York streets had sold me a fake watch. And I’m much to savvy to purchase a cheap Rolex from a New York sidewalk vendor.
I see the problem going far beyond the bad apples we discuss. I wish the profession would examine their system that encourages us to suspend our adult judgment, leaving us so vulnerable to abuse. Freud was a showman who never cured anybody. I don’t see how his paternalistic, arrogant legacy, the patient’s submission, is in any way healthy or healing.
Disequilibrium1: Many thanks for these helpful comments. One of the points you make is that psychotherapy has no parallel to reading blood test results. Indeed, everything depends on the therapist’s intuition, and there is no objective information that could challenge his/her view. If the client argues, his/her views are dismissed as resistance. Many therapists go to supervision sessions, but their supervisor or supervisor group will have the same presuppositions and so will only confirm the therapist’s intuitions. If the final result of the therapy is negative, the client is blamed, not the therapist.
The therapist’s “observations” often will be inaccurate because the star chamber of the therapy room is such an artificial one from the onset. The therapist usually is an authority figure, communication is artificial and distorted, the client is encouraged to lay his distress at the therapist’s feet. This is far removed from how we function at work, with friends, with family. So under such contrived conditions, the therapist sees a skewed view of how we otherwise operate.
Even if the therapist were a genius and a saint, his tools to get a clear picture of a client’s life always will be highly deficient.
An Amazon reviewer’s list of books that sound interesting on bad therapists:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1LSAHD4ASH13G/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview
Swiss Brit & Disequil. – great comments! I have learned a lot from them. Interesting comment re: therapists who go to ‘supervisory sessions’ – these are probably a big joke. Right that tthat the ‘supervisor’ only hears what the therapist tells him or her; Also, the supervisor very probably has his or her OWN issues as well- maybe is there only to exert his or her own power over the therapist. In my mind, unless the supervisor sees an actual taped session between the therapist and client, there is no way that the supervisor has any real idea what is going on.
I had another unfortunate experience with this – was in a ‘support group’ (what an oxymoron) at a community center/agency about 1 1/2 years ago. Leader was a young lady who was doing her required internship to be a marriage & family counselor – she was awful – from the beginning she didn’t like me (and she admitted it). I contacted her supervisor – another joke! I told her what was going on, and asked her to OBSERVE the group. Response, she laughed as she explained: “I don’t do that”. I even looked up the LAW/regulations re: this, and – guess what??? the definition did NOT include actually having to OBSERVE the person interning! All they have to do is hold ‘meetings’ to discuss the internee’s ‘experiences’ being the leader of the group! And WHO came up with these regulations? The therapists themselves. What a shock! I am a lawyer – and when I first began working – and this was NOT in any regulations – the lawyers who hired me reviewed all my work at first – AND my boss was ‘ present at my first trial, which ONLY makes sense. This therapy ‘profession’ continues its pattern of working in ‘secrecy’ – no matter what. I can’t stand it. I was planning to take my complaints of the group ‘leader’ to the head of the agency, where the group met. BUT I got busy, had my own problems, and in the end, simply had no time to do that. BUT I have a question – when I am trying to find help for myself, is it MY role to give up trying to help myself to gather ‘evidence’ to show the ‘supervisors’ (what a joke!) and higher-ups what is REALLY going on??? That makes me mad as well. Its the role of these ‘supervisors’ to actually OBSERVE the trainee internist; not mine!
I learned of a therapist hearing “horror stories” from another therapist’s former clients. Yet the horrific therapist continues practice–for decades–unfettered. And only an infinitesimal fraction of clients who file grievances win their cases. Infractions are rarely provable, and therapist have all sorts of strategies to invalidate their clients’ accounts. Therapists practice under cloak of darkness.
Well, my experiences both as a client and as a student on a counselling course is that there are a number of people with serious unresolved issues/personality disorders in the profession. The counsellor that I saw had a highly confrontational approach which, if I had been less stable, I believe could have been psychologically highly damaging. In fact, after one session with her (thankfully I only had 8 sessions) I felt verging on a feeling of ‘what’s the point of everything?’. It was actually very scary as I am not a depressive person at all and the only reason I sought therapy was a terrible work situation where I was bullied/pyschologically manipulated by a sadistic mentor.
The counsellor subtly (and not so subtly) further undermined by self-esteem by questioning my version of events and also introducing the sugggestion that somehow I was to ‘blame’. Having spent months analysing what had happened the only responsibility I accept for the situation with the sadistic mentor was that I could have responded differently. But I was so takenaback by her cruel manipulation that I was blindsided and effectively went into ‘dissociation’ and I suppose had some sort of nervous breakdown.
The counsellor seemed to relish the opportunity of further undermining me, having established my achilles tendon. Again, I felt she was playing games with me and trying to manipulate me. Talk about out of the frying pan into the fire!
The tutors on the counselling course that I did were also manipulative and used tactics to create dysfunction, distrust and a generally a spiteful, bichy atmosphere within the student group. There would usually be one or two students being scapegoated. However, conversely, neither tutor could accept any kind of criticism – even if it was constructive they became very defensive.
Once they knew that I was leaving the course prematurely, I received the nastiest feedback on a piece of work I had done. I am convinced that it was done as vengeance for my leaving and it was designed to attack my self esteem and sense of self generally. Really very nasty, unprofessional behaviour. So childish – I can only assume that they came from highly dysfuntional backgrounds and had not fully resolved their own issues. In their position of control over a group of counselling students, they acted out the dysfunctional behaviour – as authority figuress – that no doubt characterised their own upbringings.
I’m so glad I am out of the whole thing and have gained some perspective on the experience. I have no doubt there are some excellent counsellors out there but as I have repeatedly stated the most important qualities are emotional stability, integrity, kindness, intelligence, an altruistic side to one’s personality etc. Without the right personal characteristics, all the qualifications and experience in the world will not make someone an empathetic counsellor in my opinion.
I think so many aspects of the counseling process should be open for serious question. First, every human being has many quirks and deficiencies, so any time we lay open our lives for someone else’s scrutiny, we’ll probably come up short. It’s easy for the “judge” to exploit this examination.
Furthermore, who decides what is normal or well? Some of us are solitary. Some of us are wall-flowers, while others are in constant need of admiration. Some always have to be in a crowd, or stimulated by something new. Some are bosses, some are followers. It’s easy to point to any human characteristic, drive, compulsion or inaction as something that needs to be fixed.
As clients, we often subjugate ourselves to the “wise expert.” But isn’t it just as “neurotic” to for them to view themselves as the wise expert?
Therapy aims for what I see as a moving target.
Receiving psychotherapy has been one of the most damaging and traumatic things that has ever happened to me. Every therapist that I have ever been too has left me feeling powerless, misunderstood, and manipulated. It is really a form of psychological torture. All therapy and psychiatry really is, is a means of social control in order to maintain the power structure and the status quo. Everyone needs someone to talk too in life, especially when you are depressed, but not a therapist. Just the fact that someone would charge you money just to help you emotionally shows that they are exploiters. It has also been my experience in life that most therapist have very little emotional intelligence or intuition. After getting off of all my psych meds, talking with friends a lot about how I really felt, and studying meditation and spiritually, I truly started to heal from my depression, and started gaining real social abilities outside my small network of friends. The only way to really heal mental illness is by way loving relationships, getting healthy, and disciplining the mind by making it peaceful through mediation, and developing a warm heart through spirituality.
This is what I suffered at hands of therapy. (I did no chose to go into therapy, I was pressured into it twice by psychiatrists.)
I was told that I was never supposed to question authority (especially theirs) and if I did, that meant that I was paranoid and needed to be drugged even more.
I was told that I was always supposed to blindly conform to everything. And that being different was a personality disorder.
I was told that if I believed in self reliance, thinking for myself, and that I should be able to do what I felt was best for myself, as long as I wasn’t harming anyone. That that meant that I was narcissists. I didn’t seem to matter that I had tremendous amounts of empathy for people, and alway went out of my way to help people. This labeling left me feeling demoralized, and once it was wrote down in their notes, it continued to shadow me until I made my full escape from so called mental health professionals.
Despite the fact that I suffer form aspergers and some other developmental problems which have affected my social abilities, I was told that all my social problems were my own fault, and that I was just refusing to take responsibility.
When I told them about bullying that I went through, they said that it didn’t happen, and that I was just making it up.
When I told them that I had suffered form severe learning problems as a child, like dyslexia for example, they did not believe me, and said that I was just making it up to get attention
If I talked about feeling depressed, I was told that I was just feeling sorry for myself.
I read a lot, and because of this I was told that I shouldn’t at all.
If I talked about something that I was reading it was perceived to be bragging, and a sign of narcissism.
They would insult me a lot. For example, once when I sent my therapist, and email, he went on to tell me that my writing was superficial.
If I did not agree with what they wanted me to do, then that was perceived as a sign of narcissism. They would then try damage my self esteem so that they could break me down and control me.
There is really a lot more, but you get the idea.
(Everyone needs to see the movie on You Tube, “Psychiatry, and Industry of Death. Know before hand though, that it is a very upsetting movie and will leave you in tears. And like the guy who posted it said, “It cannot be unseen.”)
James, I have an Asperger’s family member, raised at a time when parents and teachers did EVERYTHING wrong and have observed the extra challenges of living it presents. I admire you for rejecting the medication and sadistic “guidance” to forge your own path. As I understand it, my family member can absorb information and emotions more intensely than someone without Asperger’s, so it’s easy for him to get on overload. So great that you found authentic ways to help yourself.
My own real teacher has been yoga, which has taught me more about handling stress and keeping perspective than therapy ever did.
Thank you so much. 🙂 Just that little paragraph of compassion means the world to me. I just want people to love me, and I want to be able to fully love all other people. And most importantly, to fully love myself. I think that once I can fully love myself, that my heart chakra is going to just explode with love. I also think that as I continue to work on disciplining my mind that my extreme shifts in emotion and feeling rejected at the slightness thing will come to an end.
And thank you so much for starting this blog. Even though I have been doing tremendously better, I have still been feeling powerless on a subtle level. But when I found your blog, and started reading it, I realized that I was not alone.
Getting off the meds was the best thing. Also after getting off the meds I stared to become more aware as to why I had developed emotional problems in the first place when I was 18. It was all because I didn’t feel loved, I didn’t love myself. And I measured my self esteem based on external things, Instead of just realizing that I am a person worthy of love in all ways simply for being a person. After getting off the meds I was then able to start working through my issues and disordered thinking and self image, instead of just being numbed out.
I knew that if I did not get away from psych doctors and therapist that I was going to kill myself as a result of being made to feel worthless, disempowered, and out of fear of having my freedom taken away. I barely escaped being institutionalized. Because being labeled as bipolar, OCD, narcissistic, paranoid, and because I was aware of things that most people were not aware of. (For example, how the banking elite in debt countries, and how my country America is really controlled by corporations and has set up an empire.) I was considered to be dangerous.
I was on 5 meds in all. Paxil, Abilify, Tegertol, Lithium, and Xanax. After getting off the meds I experienced:
Less depression, anger, intrusive thoughts, and anxiety. (I think that the Paxil was making my depression a thousand times worse. Just after two days of being off it I started feel significally better.)
My IQ increased out the roof, and I also started to experience clearer and faster thought. My mind than began to make all these connections between things that I already knew that I had never made before. It was like all my life I had been collecting puzzle pieces, but that I am just now starting to put the puzzle together. I think that the reason that people with mental issues are labeled as dumb sometimes is because these drugs cause cognitive impairments. And people in their ignorance believe that it is the persons mental illness, (or what I now like to say mental affliction, instead of illness), and not the drugs which have caused them to experience problems with intelligence. While I don’t suffer for schizophrenia, I have discovered through research that before they started massively drugging schizophrenics, that the recovery rate from this affliction was much higher than it is today. In fact in the past people could make a full recovery, but now that is almost impossible.
Increased energy
A decreases in my intense appetite.
And a decrease in my weight.
Anyway again, thank you so much for your response and wonderful blog.
Ex-psychiatric clients, who ultimately rejected medication have been some of the most outspoken on the internet. Simply walking away from therapy is crazy-making enough, but sorting out the destructiveness of medications and deciding that doctor-doesn’t-always-know-best can be a real challenge.
I’ve had the vantage-point of comparing my experiences with my Asperger’s sibling. It’s difficult enough for me to sort out truths, and from what I hear, doubly difficult for him, since he was more isolated growing up. He also had ignorant, clunky therapists say various tactless things to him about where he should be developmentally.
I’m happy to read what you write about moving forward and finding solutions. I have to fight my tendencies to feel limited by past history –something that therapy fostered. I have to un-learn what therapy taught me in order to recover from therapy!
I’m in the arts, where many of my colleagues are “sensitive”/aware of the world’s cruelties and injustices. I think they struggle more than most for a way to process this, what to act on, to think about, to filter. How can any thinking person not be alarmed by dishonesty they see in the world?
Thanks for your kind words. When I’m on deadline, I’ll take a look at the video you recommend. I’ve gone through a decades-long journey healing from the harm therapy has done, as I know others have. Those I know going through this are invariably articulate and thoughtful. I hated the experience, am warmed by those I’ve met on the other side.
Yes indeed and in fact another thought has occurred to me ‘where there is muck there is brass’. Were it not for my encounter with a psychopathic mentor, I would never have gone into counselling in the first place. However, the counsellor seized this opportunity to exploit my ‘weaknesses’ and tried to further undermine me. That’s exploitation in so many ways – but follow the money folks. If you can make people believe they are somehow faulty goods you can hook them into long term counselling which I think is precisely what she wanted.
Jorobs, the “faulty goods” strategy is exactly the way gurus and cults work.They break people down, shine a light on their deficiencies, and hold themselves up as “the answer.” Of course, every human has deficiencies.
Here are some good links exposing the dangers of psychiatry.
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/
Thanks for applying time to post “BAD THERAPY? A DISGRUNTLED EX-PSYCHOTHERAPY
CLIENT SPEAKS HER PIECE Disequilibrium1’s Blog”. Thank you once again -Gidget
Therapy that leads to “recovered memories” has proven to be very destructive and harmful to patients and their families, since often these “memories” have proven to be FALSE. This is a very harmful, destructive therapy that has destroyed families, and still does to this day. Google “Castlewood Treatment Center lawsuits” and you’ll see what this kind of “therapy” has wrought, and it’s often perpetrated on young women who are very vulnerable, in this case women with eating disorders. The same harmful therapy is being used at Mercy Ministries residential treatment program as well…I know that because my daughter has been a victim of that same therapy…a therapy that led her to attempt suicide, her response to “memories” that never happened. I know of several other families being impacted at both Mercy Ministries and Castlewood Treatment Center whose daughters have yet to realize the truth because they have been brainwashed. Life is hard enough for these young women without them having to deal with things that aren’t even real. Besides destroying their family relationships, it is a grave disservice to the patients because it keeps them from dealing with the REAL issues in their own lives. This kind of bad therapy MUST STOP.
Hello there! Do you use Twitter? I’d like to follow you if that would be ok. I’m definitely enjoying your blog
and look forward to new posts.
Hi, cowgirl. Thanks for the kind words. I’m not on twitter, and my only other essay is on MentalHelpnet.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=482&e=43065
You can reach me via the “about” page.
TELL, the Therapy Exploitation Link Line, has various support for those with therapy issues, as well as material on their site. I also have a growing collection of links to organizations, essays etc. which I found interesting. Best…Dis…
One of the students that I did the counselling course with had been in intensive therapy for YEARS and at the time I knew him was working with a therapist who seemed very keen on digging up ‘recovered memories’. But rather than getting better, he seemed to be regressing (and bear in mind that he had been having therapy for ages). Okay, his background was incredibly dysfunctional but even after so much therapy he still labelled himself ‘abused’. We had one session where we had to chose just one or two words to describe ourselves and that was one of the words he chose.
How sad – all those years of therapy and he still had so little self-worth that he felt that the word ‘abused’ summed him up.
What does that tell you about the quality of the counselling he had had? He felt it necessary to define himself with that horrible word? Abused is what his stupid parents did to him – why allow their immature and dysfunctional behaviour to CONTINUE to define him even as an adult.
This is what bothers me about the whole therapy industry – it’s too easy to stick people firmly in the ‘victim’ role, help yourselves to their money and milk the ‘victim’ gravy train for years and years.
I am sure that there are some great counsellors out there, it’s just that I haven’t come across one. And the ones that were lecturers on my course i would not wish on my worse enemy.
Jorobs, you hit on what I agree is the fallacy of the therapy industry. It so often is a pity party. And that kind of victim-thinking is advanced training in how to be a depressive. It fosters obsession with all the woes and shortcomings of one’s life.
In my experience, this dwelling in sorrow was bottomless. I never “worked through” anything to get somewhere better. Living in such a negative mindset left me hopeless in my work and alienating others socially with my self-pity and dreariness. And it left me faster on the trigger to blame and feel “wounding.”
Furthermore, I feel the very process of therapy–subordination to the wise guru–reinforced more powerless.
I often recognize those I suspect are therapy “victims.” They’re labeling themselves and everyone else as diseased. Everything leaves them “injured.”
Tana Dineen explores this in her “Manufacturing Victims.” She has many essays around the net.
Best to you post school.
See the recent NY Times article — especially the comments/replies at the bottom: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/looking-for-evidence-that-therapy-works/
I read this article as well – what fascinated me is how they emphasized the therapists not being able to work with or ignoring ‘science-based therapies’. My reply to that – lack of doing this has nothing to do with a therapist being cruel and insensitive to his client. Once a therapist does this, science, schmience -none of that matters. I have yet to see even ONE article concerning the problems we have faced with our therapists – their own mental issues; their narcissism; their being therapists to get their OWN needs met; their utter lack of looking at themselves, as therapists. Has anyone ever seen an article dealing with what I am describing??
Resharpen, I agree. At risk at sounding brazenly unschooled, but I suspect forcing therapy through any scientific mold includes a large serving of folly. How does one quantify the quality of a life? So the client leaves the office with a pep talk, high and optimistic, and both doctor and client are now deluded the client is “getting well.” But how often is therapy truly a turning point in a life over the long term? (That said I personally know a couple of people who recovered from substance abuse and truly live better lives.)
But yes, that article fails to cover the therapist’s emotional failings. Nor does it consider the ramifications of the paternalistic, subordinating, artificial relationship that therapy constructed, at least for me.
disequilibrium1, perhaps you could leave another thoughtful comment in the NY Times comment section, and link to your blog. Your words are very moving, and it’s important to get the message out to a wider audience to stop a practice that is ruining lives through its “paternalistic, subordinating, artificial relationships.” Thank you so much.
Thanks so much, anon. I finally left a link quietly toward the bottom of the discussion. Next time the Times or a major media outlet runs an article about therapy, I promise to try for more visibility. (I’m a little shy about promotion, though I “sell” nothing except conversation.)
My wish is that professionals would take discussions like ours more seriously. Because I find the paternalistic structure of therapy can only undermine one’s independence and keep clients perpetually subordinate as long as they subscribe to its framework. That’s a difficult paradox to resolve, and I challenge the professional to consider it.
I loved this comment on the article. (Don’t know if the contributor is here.)
“One idea that’s commonly accepted is that we create patterns, habits, and ways of being — in a sense, we create our worlds — through our actions and interactions with others. To the extent that therapy creates a world of artificial imbalanced relationships, inequality/non-mutuality, one-way exposure and concealment, “patient” status/ diagnoses and need, paternalism, authority, and power dynamics, it may be far more harmful than the original worldview that a client was trying to get a new perspective on in the first place.”
One of the commenters of that NY Times article said this technique cured her! In one hour! Tapping on your face and hand while holding a thought. We can be free in an 8-minute Youtube video. It was that simple!
I spent approximately three years seeing my therapist. I liked my therapist but I must say that my experience of her could be likened to trying to bring Peter Pan down to earth while he flies above Neverland. In retrospect I see many instances in which she displayed how wholly incompetent she was, and how I should have moved on much sooner than I did. Not doing so is a mistake I deeply regret.
I think that one could argue with my therapist for months that two plus two equals four and she would dispute it until she would have a dream telling her that two plus two equals four, and she would come back with the dream as if it were some sort of epiphany. Never mind that it had been conveyed to her for months and was an apparent fact to most other people. Just as an alcoholic is lost in the fogginess of inebriation so some people are just as lost in the ether of their own psychobabble. Such people are a drain on their patients and a detriment to the recovery process.
When my therapist was not disputing apparent facts about my life she was either finding new items to diagnose as some sort of complex, finding a way to aggrandize me rather than allow me to deal honestly with my faults, or destroying my train of thought with some half formed thought that would end in a matronly lecture. Never did any therapy of real substance occur.
Either this therapist was projecting her own problems, or was so convinced by some theory or passing thought that she could not deal with what I brought to her. All I know is that she added a burden to the process and exacerbated many issues for me. I have had to deal with the aftermath of this for several years. If I had not had so many professional challenges and struggles at the time I left, I would have considered filing a complaint.
I have left feedback about her on several sites and her friends always come to her rescue. It is a shame that such people are licensed to practice. The whole industry needs tight regulation and about 80 percent of the practitioners need to be weeded out. After nearly five years I am still struggling with what she put me through but have found help through journaling. I was dealing with the death of a mother (whom I was caregiver to), an uncle and aunt that died within weeks of my mother, the loss of several pets after these events, and 9/11. A few years later I would deal with the suicide of a brother and I spiraled down right before this nitwit; yet she just went along her chipper path with her little two-note symphony composed of “pain” and “depression”. I have realized I needed behavioral therapy, and it was a lay person who helped me realize this. A good therapist would have also, but I wonder how many of those there really are.
GW, condolences for your losses and the consequences of your therapy. So much of it sounds familiar. The “treatments” therapists gave me were never more than faith healing, and untangling that sham feels far more difficult than “normal” problems I had in the real world.
I see–years later–how I allowed myself to be led down the garden path. Therapists convinced me that therapy could transform my life, so I followed uncritically.
GW – thank you so much for your comments – I agree with you about 1000%! As for you ‘outing’ your former therapist on those site – I commend you immensely. I truly think that more and more, we should be OUTING those therapists as much as much as we can. I don’t know about the others here, but I am asking you to post the web sites, & I will immediately contact those sites myself, and post my feedback supporting you. Its about time we ‘fought back’. Eventually, the therapy community, as you discussed, would HAVE to confront what we are saying. I really think we should protest the meetings of the American Psychological Association, and others of that ilk. Anyone else agree with me?
It seems when someone poses questions we have, he or she often is met with ad hominem attacks and is “analyzed” to the point of invalidation. I’ve read several examples of this.
That’s the way professionals negate critical feedback . They slip into therapeutic-material-ville. Critics are not seen as questioning their therapists, or therapy, they’re perceived as projecting their mommies. Injury is a “therapeutic event.” And of course it means critics –need more therapy to remedy the problem.
One almost-caricature example of this is a therapist’s “review” of Anna Sands’ very insightful consumer-written “Falling for Therapy.” Clearly that book made the therapist furious and she pulled out the diagnosis knives.
http://www.lindamartinonline.com/articles/fallingfortherapy.HTM
disequilibrium1 and resharpen
Thanks so much for your comments. It is truly helpful to know there are other “voices in the wilderness” expressing the truth about so much of what goes on in so-called therapy. I have a friend who is an addict to it, it is her religion honestly though she does defer to the fact that there are bad therapists out there. I, also, defer that there are good therapists out there as well…just not that many and they are hard to find. The therapist I speak of is an alcoholic (and she was so concerned I was as well …hmmm, 40 some years of age with little interest in drinking but I had to have the same problems as she did!!!) and what I believe is that she replaced her drinking problem with theorizing. It was as if she was inebriated/medicated on psychoanalysis. In addition, she was like a little girl in her safe (a word she insisted that applied to me in so many ways, always trying to be safe when that was rarely the case) little ivory tower with her big shiny theoretical toys. Sad. I am writing a screenplay based on my experiences with her and want to eventually write about self-therapy and how to find good therapists if it is considered a necessity. We definitely need to stand up and fight the machine. It’s an uphill battle.
I almost forgot – GW, what you described is SO common among therapists. So many of them have the following goals: TOTAL POWER; BEING CORRECT, no matter what the client says; etc. I really think the career attracts people who probably feel so very weak inside, can’t live with that, and find that being a counselor makes them feel so powerful – which they absolutely need to feel, at all costs. When they say these crazy things, like your therapist did – the only person there to confront them is you – and to them, their client is just a little ‘weakling’ whom they have to ‘straighten out’. They don’t consider us ever to be equal to them. They have NO boss, or anyone whom they feel is even equal to them to confront them – because only you are there to witness their ridiculousness posing as ‘therapy’. LIke I stated earlier, we MUST demand our rights as patients, finally.
resharpen
I know what you mean about the power trip. The therapist I speak of once related a story about her children (really unprofessional), and how she told them that maybe they would have a mom like they wanted in their next life but not this one. The belief or disbelief in reincarnation aside, this should have been a clue for me to get out but I was just too desperate and patient with her nonsense. Looking at that tells me how clueless, irresponsible, and self-absorbed she is. I don’t doubt that she loves her children as far as she’s capable but I also see that she realized her maternal failures and tried to make that up with her patients, including me. I would give you a link to my critiques of her but I’d have to find them and look at her picture and see the nonsensical praise of her. Makes my skin crawl.
“… the career attracts people who probably feel so very weak inside, can’t live with that, and find that being a counselor makes them feel so powerful – which they absolutely need to feel, at all costs.”
This is exactly right. See, for example:
http://ironshrink.com/2007/08/how-to-tell-if-your-therapist-is-crazy-part-one/
http://psychgripe.blogspot.com/2010/12/therapist-types-narcissist.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=ipk1mQEpAaAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+curious+calling&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2P5cUcH8OtDw0QHUyoDADQ&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA
http://therapyconsumerguide.com/intimacy-in-therapy-reality-or-dangerous-illusion-part-4/
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/why-shrinks-have-problems
Also, just as victims of bullying are often the ones most likely to become bullies, therapists, who were often the victims of rejection and painful emotional backgrounds, are most likely to be motivated to inflict emotional harm on others.
GW, Resharpen, and Disequilibrium1 — I agree, as well, and really appreciate you all being here and sharing your stories. It would be extremely worthwhile to expand the consumer advocacy movement, and protest psychotherapy until there are enough consumer protections in place to help consumers navigate away from harmful therapy.
There are more interesting comments on the topic in the comments/reply section here: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/looking-for-evidence-that-therapy-works/#postComment
There’s a book on this subject, Narcissism and the Psychotherapist.
I agree there needs to be many more protections in place for the mental health consumer. Most consumers with whom I’ve corresponded found their state’s complaint process failing. I’ve heard that only a miniscule fraction of complaints are found for the client.
I see several levels of problems. First there are the outrageous abuses, therapists who sleep with or otherwise exploit their clients.
Emotional harm, which we discussed here, is much more subtle. This can be in many forms from bullying to dependency, to misdiagnosis to overcontrol and craziness to name a few.
Yet another level are ex-clients like me, who saw some therapists who are by most measures ethical, but found the entire structure of therapy infantilizing and regressive for reasons I outlined in my essay.
I wish the profession was much more active educating consumers and encouraging us to take an active and critical role in evaluating our own care. For instance, my allergist thoroughly informs me of risks and effectiveness of treatment, and asks me to provide a self-evaluation of issues and progress before I ever see them. Only my therapists led me blindfolded through the catacombs.
Unfortunately the trend seems the opposite. When I look at therapists’ marketing websites, many of them promise or imply their treatment is a miracle elixir.
I think one of a myriad of problems that comes up with psychotherapy is that far too many individual practitioners have a one size fits all approach. Also, in the case with my worst therapist (see earlier comments) her diagnosis came too soon without spending time understanding my situation as well as my background. She had what I call a bag of dime-store magic tricks that she passed off as therapeutic and thought she could just wave her magic wand and voila I would be over my problems. It does not work that way and requires a great deal of self-exploration, which frankly, is better done on one’s own in my opinion.
Another matter must be taken into consideration. Therapists depend on their patients monetarily. Too quick of a fix and they have to go fill that slot. One thing I suspected was that my therapist was doing everything she could to diagnose everything and anything I would say to add to what she needed to “fix”. I knew this was not the case and struggled to the point of neurosis to keep the focus on the issues I was seeing her for. Regulating this industry will be difficult because there are many with lobbying power and money. It is hard to even search Google for bad therapy topics without wading through all the “positive” results first.
The changes I’ve accomplished are thanks to time, experience, and my drive to accomplish goals. Therapy can’t offer that.
I went to therapy because I was somewhat unhappy with “who I was.” I too received some boilerplate suggestions for change, less wise than I have received from friends or Aunt Ethyl. The therapist never helped me understand or improve anything specific.
One of therapy’s many limitations is that the therapist’s understanding comes either from the client’s own reporting or what the therapist can observed within the confines of a highly artificial hour. Can we truly understand what it’s like to walk in someone else’s shoes from a verbal account? Even when we live parallel experiences, we often process and filter it different ways.
Then we certainly have a wide range of opinions about what is normal or the perfected human being. A male therapist told a divorced female that she should have dressed more alluringly for her husband. Is there “something wrong” with women who flout the societal custom of wearing makeup? Is it more of a goal to be driven and alpha, or more empathetic and diplomatic? Is there a perfect middle? We’re always going to be something, and NOT something else.
Then there’s the reality that no matter who we are and what we might change, we’ll always encounter problems.
It seems to me that part of the problem lies in the training – that was certainly my experience. The students were not encouraged to challenge the lecturers (who also worked as counsellors) robustly. In actual fact, one of the questions asked at the interview stage was: ‘what kind of relationship do you have with authority figures’. I think that this question was asked to weed out those people who are self-confident and self-aware enough to question and challenge authority figures. And of-course a person’s relationship with authority figures as an adult will inevitably be influenced by that person’s relationship with the primary authority figures in their life as a child – namely their parents.
I also remember at the interview stage one of the course leaders trying out a ‘boundary violation’ on me. I was in quite a vulnerable space at the time (the details of which I had unwisely confided to the course leaders) so the course leader would have known where my achilles tendon was. And how I reacted to this verbal sting would have given the course leader very powerful ammunition in terms of how I respond to an authority figure who violates a boundary.
I guess I ticked the boxes in terms of not challenging authority figures and I was selected on to the course along with others who also did not challenge authority figures.
Ironically, the only reason I wanted to join the course was a workplace bulllying situation where a psychopathic mentor’s treatment of me lead to something of a nervous breakdown…..oh, the irony of it! Out of the proverbial frying pan and into the fire. ….only these people were experts in the art of psychological manipulation.
Anyway, by selecting students who don’t rock the boat and who are acquiescent the course leaders have a carte blanche to manipulate and bully the students, using divide and rule and victimisation tactics that are also a feature of dysfunctional parents and families. So, under the guise of a maternalistic or paternalistic course tutor role, the lecturers can continue to act out their dysfunctional behavioural patterns.
And they did. The few times I tried to hold one of the lecturers to account, they would weasel their way out of it in ways that spoke volumes about their own psychological mind-sets. They would stoop quite low – blaming other people, creating victims. Anything to avoid taking responsibility. Talk about denial!
And boy did they know how to get their hands on your money! There were some nice little tricks like getting you to pay up months up front for the academic year, often BEFORE you knew whether you had passed the year or not. So they would be in a very strong position to get you to jump through higher and higher hoops to pass the assignments as you had invested so much financially.
Not to mention the lengthy therapy you were supposed to be having with a certain type of therapist. And guess who rented out the rooms and offered to work as your supervisor – yes, you got it, the course providers!
Nice little gravy train.
I’ll stick to that 8 minute finger tapping exercise and replace the counselling sessions with a good workout. A damn sight cheaper and won’t mess with your head either!
Jorobs, I’m laughing at your tapping exercise remark. If that tapping clears anyone’s emotions, or sinuses, please let me know and I’ll apply it more diligently. 🙂
The culture you describe–of inquiring minds that essentially are incurious–certainly fits with the glimpses I’ve had of the culture.
Jeffrey Masson is better known for his “Against Therapy.” I preferred the personal journey he presented in “Final Analysis,” his account of his training and short professional life. He paints everyone he dealt with as delusional and crazy.
Glad I made you laugh! I tried out the tapping and I think there is something in it – guess it taps in (pun unintended!) to how thoughts become habits and so on.
I presume that type of approach is more in line with cognitive behavioral therapy which strikes me as a more effective (not to mention cost-effective) approach than traditional psychotherapy with all that navel-gazing.
Was it Masson who considered therapy to be a cult? In my opinion, traditional therapy IS a cult. If you look at the cult education forum on line there are sections on therapy and some types of it (for instance gestalt as it was traditionally practiced by Fritz Perls) fit all of the criteria for a cult. If you watch his Gloria tapes, which are still used in therapy training, you can see how Perls tries to manipulate and tease her. At one point he even admits: ‘but we had a good fight, didn’t we?’ which presumably was what he wanted. So, under the guise of ‘helping’ her, he is actually pursuing his own perverted agenda. If you read more about him, he was a nasty man who was sexually exploitative at a period in time when there was far less gender equality than there is today.
I’ll have to give tapping another go. I didn’t respond to it, so I only felt silly. Maybe that means I just can’t be analyzed.
I don’t recall if Masson used the word cult, but examples in his writing certainly are cult like. I feel therapy can operate much like cult indoctrination, shaming the initiate for perceived deficiencies and weakness and claiming to “heal” them as an lure into a pseudo-world.
When I get nightmares when I view or read stories about cults. They so parallel my experience in therapy.
The tapping is something actually something akin to the Chi points used in acupuncture. I had a therapist who suggested it for anxiety and utilized it during my sessions. I must have been driving him mad. He was a nice therapist otherwise and believed in keeping tabs on progress as well as that therapy was not to be a forever deal.
The tapping also reminds me of EMDR which associates eye movement with recalling painful memories and replacing them with good ones. Both my wretched therapist and the aforementioned one tried this on me. The difference being I had to stop my bad therapist from pursuing it, while the other therapist recognized it was not effective in my case and stopped pursuing it. Nonetheless, neither therapist were effective in their endeavors. The one added a layer of anger on top of the anger and grief I struggled with; while the other one was a gentle, grandfatherly type who at least did not contribute anything negative other than to my checking account.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but EDMR looks like something they learn over two weekends, 40 hours of training. So in two weekends, they can add that to their “specialties,” easy-peasy.
http://www.emdr.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=30
diseuilibrium1 Agreed. Easy-Peasy, but I can’t dismiss that odd ball things might help some people cope and/or de-stress in many cases. Holding/Viewing a treasured artifact from a deceased loved one might ease pain for a grieving person left behind for example. Talking, being able to place my raw feelings on to the table in the presence of an attentive person helped me tremendously. The problem was my therapist didn’t get this and thought she needed to speed up what is a slow process with her voodoo tricks and attempting to find the root causes of many things for which I could have easily told her. Always trying to find a needle in a haystack where there were no haystacks. Psychotherapists attempt to universalize and dogmatize the human condition and fit it in neat little compartments. That’s fine theoretically for academia, but it doesn’t work practically for individuals who are experiencing difficult situations. What many fail to see is that a little compassion can be far more healing than all the circus tricks in the world.
Thank you very much for your ongoing discourse here on your site. This, in and of itself is truly helpful.
Thank you, and all of you for sharing this discussion. I so appreciate being able to exchange these insights which seem to take so little space in therapeutic discussion. I hope a few professionals too will read this and respect our viewpoints.
GW, I so agree about totems and ways of healing. I imagine we have to cultivate and discover those comforts ourselves. And I so agree with you about voodoo tricks and universalizing the human condition.
It never helped me to unearth bad memories or feelings in any attempt to “work through” them. In fact, dredging bad feelings and memories only encouraged me to hold them tighter and feel myself as more special and abused.
I see the most important aspect of healing as what we take from it into our real lives where we function as colleagues, bosses, friends, mates, etc. I was the WORST, most self-involved, magically-thinking friend under therapy’s spell. I meet many I suspect are therapy “victims,” cultivating every slight like it is a hot-house orchid and pulling everyone else into their contrived world of “boundary setting.” Then there is the mechanical instruction for how to relate:
“I feel ANGER when you pour soup over my head.”
“I have to avoid that. It’s a TRIGGER for me.”
I was a much better companion when I discarded therapy’s training. The goal SHOULD be to be effective in the world.
It’s nice that some alternative therapies work for some people. The fundamental problem, though, is that therapists do not know in advance — before experimenting on their clients and potentially causing great emotional damage and trauma — what will help and what will harm. Given the odds and the human lives/emotional states that are at stake, continuing the practice of therapy is irresponsible. And continuing the practice without full disclosure about the potential risks is unethical.
PS – Thank you again for being here. It is so nice to have found this intelligent, authentic, and courageous community. Far more helpful and honest than any “professional” has to offer.
Psychotherapy is emotional rape. It is an asymmetrical relationship in which the therapist (“the-rapist”) has power and control, and the client (victim) is vulnerable and emotionally exposed. The client is then exploited and used after trust is given, and may be rejected and abandoned if they dare to challenge or question the therapist.
http://enpsychopedia.org/index.php/Emotional_Rape
Sarah, unfortunately, that’s the way I experienced it as well–even with one of one of my phony/”kind” therapists. In retrospect, it was like capitulation to the confident girl in the schoolyard. Another therapist was less “superior,” yet put me through ridiculous exercises of self-obsession to no productive end. The entire experience feels like a carnival con.
Though I do feel there are therapists who have integrity I can understand the feeling of being emotionally raped. That’s how I feel. Too many therapists are detached from every-day reality and so absorbed by their (or another person’s) theories that they can’t approach therapy in a no-nonsense manner and just allow someone to process their angst. My therapist always played devil’s advocate which just exacerbated the anger I was dealing with. I repeatedly told her to stop and she just wouldn’t. I finally realized that she was a little girl in her safe ivory tower playing with her big pretty shiny balls of alchemy, kabballah, and shamanism. I now joke that her title should have been “Princess Shaman Healer” for I think she had her own “complex” or delusion of being a super hero rather than someone who helps guide a patient to a better place mentally and emotionally.
You point out the problem of an art masquerading as a science. Psychotherapy turns human emotions and relationships into one big chemistry lab in which mixing elements in beakers is purported to remove or neutralize undesired substances. Human beings just don’t work that way.
Therapy only incubated my sense of sorrow and tragedy. Everything became an overwhelming problem which I unloaded on my therapist and everyone else, my every deficiency and shortcoming were prized possessions to dwell in and examine. What a distorted worldview.
When I finally questioned this culture, I reverse engineered who are the kinds of friends I want to be around? How can I be more like these people? It’s been quite a project discarding the bad emotional habits that therapy taught me.
I believe most therapists go into their field with the best of intentions. They have no understanding how their pseudo-world affects them.
Yes, psychotherapy is a sad circus for all involved — for both therapist and client. It can’t be emotionally healthy to be on either side of that unbalanced equation.
A recent article on the state of psychology research:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/feb/27/psychologists-bmc-psychology
And an older one about the culture of secrecy:
http://www.nature.com/news/psychology-must-learn-a-lesson-from-fraud-case-1.9513
It’s dishonest for therapists try to claim that there’s scientific evidence for their voo doo. They may know of some anecdotes where clients seemed to benefit (who may also have benefited from a number of alternative things), but there are also many anecdotes in which clients are severely harmed. In order to justify this risk of harm, there needs to be very rigorous, validated, replicated evidence showing that the benefits are worth the risk. In the absence of that evidence, it is cruel experimentation on humans without their consent.
I don’t have to look far to question psychotherapists’ sincere interest in negative outcomes. There’s almost no literature about it. I know of several consumers who were met with derision or dismissal when they attempted to discuss issues here with members of the profession. And how many professionals have joined this discussion with a spirit of inquiry?
Psychotherapy is the only “science” of which I’m aware in which application precedes research. I understand scientists are mandated to be objective. In mental health, research only seems employed to bolster what already is widespread in industry.
A correspondent contributed this link from the NY Times, article promoting sending the elderly to therapy. As usual, it’s the uncritical puff piece “advertising” the industry.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/22/how-therapy-can-help-in-the-golden-years/
An academic, scholarly article about power issues in psychotherapy which was linked in the NY Times article comments.
http://www.criticalmethods.org/hook.htm
Some interesting discussions at
https://www.madinamerica.com/2013/03/help-end-the-war-against-psychotherapy/
and http://www.psychologysalon.com/2012/12/profession-iatrogenic-fear-of-emotion.html
Article about the state of the mental health industry (I would include clinical psychology/psychotherapy along with psychiatry) and the fraud it’s based on:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/the-real-problems-with-psychiatry/275371/
It’s warming to see debates like this in more mainstream media.
I just came across a book that may be relevant to some of the topics here:
Haven’t read it yet, but looks interesting.
Thank you. I’ll link to a couple of my interesting-but-not-yet-read titles.
Also, I recently read an article about co-dependency that describes the nature of therapist-client relationships: http://blogs.psychcentral.com/relationships/2013/04/20-indicators-for-co-dependency-or-co-addiction/
The asymmetrical relationship structure is very destructive for both the therapist and client.
Yes, that article felt like my relationships with therapists. I was enabling their self-definition of The Great Healers, and I deferred to their narratives and judgments.
Another parallel is cult psychology, and I found a lot of recognition in “The Guru Papers.” (The documentaries on Jonestown’s anniversary triggered my revisit to harmful therapy, though, of course, my experience was far less extreme and not lethal.) The similarity is the humbling of the follower or acolyte and staging the illusion that the authority holds some unattainable power and wisdom.
Another interesting one: http://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-moving-goalposts-of-mental-illness
The DSM-5 controversy is generating many interesting discussion reflecting on the mental health industry in general. Publication date is May 27. Stay tuned.
The emotional rape analogy is interesting. I think that was what my therapist was doing. It’s funny (or not!) but during one of the earlier sessions she asked how things were going and I said I was finding it helpful (the first few sessions were okay). I remember her saying: ‘this is YOUR time’. But, as the sessions continued, it seemed to me that it was actually all about HER time! She was dictating the agenda. Firing questions at me which had loaded meaning and connotations, throwing me off guard. One of her tricks was to throw something loaded at me right before the end of the session. So there would be no time to respond. I would then be left with this piece of loaded ammunition that had been flung at me. Left to ask questions and ruminate. I suppose the idea was to get me all fired up so that I would challenge her (or not!) during the next session. It was deliberately provocative, rather like poking an animal with a stick. Maybe she wanted a good old fight, rather like Fritz Perls admitted in his Gloria sessions. I guess it livens up an otherwise dull day. How some people get their kicks, eh?
It would also describe the behavior of the course leaders on the counselling course that I did. The whole industry needs a massive shake-up. I think there IS a role for counselling but I am not sure how it can best be regulated or whatever to weed out those with personality disorders and malicious intent. Psychopaths can be very charismatic and are probably less likely to be on the psychiatrists couch than on the psychiatrists chair!
I just can’t believe the journey that I went on in order to get to this level of understanding about human behavior. I suppose it has been valuable, at least I can spot a psychopath, I think!
I know what you mean about spotting, psychopaths. More valuable for me, is catching myself being caught in someone else’s charismatic web.
The therapy relationship creates the opposite of what is advisable in real life–elevating another human being to omniscient status, unequally disclosing our weaknesses, deferring to that person’s judgment about OUR lives and granting that person unconditional trust. Interacting like this in real life is a certain recipe for abuse, and it reinforces a pattern of ourselves as the passive, regressed, powerless subordinate.
The more I ponder the foundation of therapy, the more I think its paternalistic structure inevitably will create abuses.
I 100% agree. The structure of therapy is antithetical to and models the opposite of everything one would hope to achieve in life/relationships:
1) Goal: honesty, openness, transparency. Therapy: shrouding in secrecy, hiding information about mechanism of action and outcome data, subtle manipulation, transference, uneven exposure/voyeurism dynamics.
2) Goal: mutuality and natural reciprocity e.g., mutual trust, mutual respect, mutual sharing, mutual dependence, mutual love, etc. Therapy: asymmetrical dynamics of exposed and hidden, wounded and healer, subordinate and authority, payer and payee, etc.
3) Goal: authenticity, e.g., authentic relationships based on mutual love and respect. Therapy: artificial relationships based on payment, injury, and need.
4) Goal: independence. Therapy: one-sided dependence or co-dependence.
5) Goal: peaceful terms with past. Therapy: misleading/false memories prompted by “innocent” inquiries that damage outside relationships and create incentives to continue the therapy relationship.
6) And more . . . .
In my opinion, you summarized the contradictions insightfully and concisely.
Psychotherapy is an equally dysfunctional as parent-child relationship. Our parents didn’t lure us into sharing our deepest, most irrational insecurities, nor was our relationship with them based primarily on comforting our wounds.
In most cases, we were getting clothed, getting breakfast, getting to school, we’re doing and living, not reflecting back. We were sharing experiences, people and memories. The dynamic between our parents and us shifted as we matured –even if it shifted badly. Time was not up at the end of the hour and there though there were unwritten rules, there were not the strict boundaries what I could ask and how I could approach. We didn’t communicate with contrived labels and vocabulary, nor were my interactions deflected and filtered as “interpretation.”
Compared to my relationships with therapists, my parents, as very imperfect as they were, look pretty good.
As always, I really am grateful for the wonderful recent comments. Its good that there has been ‘criticism’ re: the new DSM V that will be coming out this week – some professionals are even questioning the idea of making diagnoses altogether.
AND – another VERY ‘bad therapy’ set of stories: Male friend of mine just told me horrific tale of two therapists he had. (They didn’t know each other). He had gone to both, partly because he had suffered sexual abuse as a very young child. The first (whom he thought had been ok) – he went to visit her, on a trip out of town (as she had moved there after treatment had ended). After the visit, she and her husband were driving him to the airport, a 40-min. drive, when she starts screaming at him in the car for the entire journey, at what an ‘awful’ man he is, abusive, sexist, etc. He felt that he was ‘trapped’ and couldn’t respond – she was SO dramatic, he thought they might just dump him on the side of the road if he did. He personally knew that she had suffered from sexual abuse as a child – and he truly believed that his own ‘past’ had set off some terrible memories for her.
No. 2 therapist – years later, he had a job where he was accused of something criminal. He told his then therapist who abruptly interrupted and told him “I can’t see you”. He asked for how long? and she said she didn’t know. Never told him why. He had formed a ‘bond’ with her by then – as we all do with therapists over time – (or leave them) – and he did call her a few times over the years, but she only gave him one-word replies. (She had been badly abused by her father, sexually; it led her, as an adult, into swinging, etc.). by the way – he was found not guilty of the criminal behavior.
I felt terrible for him. Why do these therapists go into this profession if THEY DO NO HAVE THEIR OWN LIVES TOGETHER. And – maybe one can’t – after their horrific childhoods. Well then, guess what? My answer is THEY SHOULD THEN NEVER BECOME THERAPISTS. Go get an MBA. Go work in a factory, or become a professor, etc. ANYTHING else. But they have NO right to go out and hurt other people.
I agree. It is a crime that this “profession” without transparency, standards, or consumer protections exists, and is free to hurt so many people.
Hi! Just wanted to let you know about “an invitation to dialogue” about the harmful structure and harmful results of talk therapy: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/opinion/invitation-to-a-dialogue-benefits-of-talk-therapy.html
This is interesting, though it’s clear of the author’s agenda, particularly the part about the “Dr. Sandberg’s rejoinder.” I’m fairly certain the Times will insist specific attribution, but Anon, it would be great to see a contribution like “structure of therapy is antithetical to and models the opposite of everything one would hope to achieve in life/relationships” you posted above. I think you state the sophistry of talk therapy so clearly.
Some issues with this article’s view on the nature of the unconscious/consciousness, but still true about the nature of talk therapy: http://www.salon.com/1999/04/06/therapys_delusions/
Interesting article. I liked best: “The “Aha!” comes from matching the cultural currents of the times. The connection is with the
society around you — not with your past or the interior of your brain.”
What were your issues about the nature of unconscious/consciousness?
I experience an unconscious and awakened emotions probably generated from the past. I just don’t believe I “heal” emotions by through digging up or naming memories. In fact, I’m probably reinforcing bad habits.
All of these comments are right on. I am amazed I have found a group of people who can understand and relate so (sadly) much to what my experience has been. I am STILL angry at several therapists, one in particular. My advise:
1) Never make “friends” with a therapist (during OR after seeing them) 2) If a therapist does not listen to you, respect the boundaries you establish (and you need to do so from day one), find another 3) Psychology is an interesting subject but much of it is theoretical not empirical – so don’t buy into it just because someone with a PhD believes it 4) Never allow anyone to impose or project either their own problems or theories on to you – know yourself, stand up for yourself, and walk away if they just won’t get it 5) Writing a journal – starting with why you think you need therapy and what you want to accomplish doing so – is an excellent alternative or supplement to therapy 6) Question, question, question – leave no stone unturned or question unanswered – don’t buy into something but test it and prove it to your own satisfaction. I wasted 20 Thousand dollars out of my own pocket (I could afford it then but after having been unemployed for 4 years – finally back in the workforce – and having gone through my retirement to survive, I deeply regret it). The best way to regulate psychotherapists is to not go to them and put them out of business. For good. Enough said. -All the Best!
GW – was at first shocked to see the $20,000 amount you had spent on therapy. BUT then, I realized how much money I had given to these ridiculous people myself. AND I really appreciate that you suggested the best way to regulate them – don’t go to them! thank you so much for that. great idea.
So sorry for all of the time and money we have wasted!! I agree with GW and resharpen — the best thing people can do to end the abuse is to stop going to therapists. There are much safer, cheaper, and healthier alternatives out there, for example: joining a support group founded in *mutual* relationships with equal openness/ equal emotional exposure, etc., talking with friends/family, cultivating new friends through hobbies or meet-up groups based on common interests/causes/needs, meditating, exercising, dancing, reading self-help books, connecting with people you trust (i.e., not therapists), writing your feelings down in a journal, getting massages, getting a pet or volunteering at an animal shelter for 45 minutes per week (the length of a therapy session), listening to music, doing yoga, volunteering to help other people, engaging in random acts of kindness, etc.
From the discussions I read it seems many therapists encourage “trust,” compliance, and even dependency from their clients. That seems incompatible with the vigilance and skepticism that GW describes.
Though I also spent a lot of money on what I experienced as snake oil, the emotional expense was much higher.
The industry is a juggernaut that’s not going away anytime soon. The most I hope is that therapists consider how dissatisfied customers experienced their treatment.
In nourishing authentic relationships trust must be earned over time through mutual sharing and commitment. In asymmetrical therapy relationships, on the other hand, one is encouraged to believe that trust can be paid for. Another example of how therapy is antithetical to well-being.
Absolutely true. Being realistic, we also can come to see and understand blind spots and sensitivities in our real relationships.
What I described yesterday comes from the fact that with earlier therapists I quit out of frustration. With my most loathsome experience, I made the mistake of staying too long and trying to control the therapist so I could at least talk. That part did help me by getting what I needed to say out in the “open” and then I could think about it between sessions. Unfortunately, containing that therapist (who wanted to mother me, contradict everything I said about myself that was in any way negative, and lead me away from my train of thought by her little intuitive hunches which had nothing to do with me at all) was tantamount and exacerbated every bit of anger I was already dealing with. The best thing to do is NOT go to a therapist but I can’t make other people’s decisions but can at least advise that they need a good plan of offense from day one. According to a recent study, talk therapy is going out of style. So I do see hope in that as I think many people will eventually get wiser about the whole thing. The bad side of this is that more people are skipping the talk for medication, which is far worse.
I had that same impulse to get through to the therapist who interpreted my very real responses to him as “material” and transference. That turned our interaction into an inverted world where my unhappiness was interpreted as progress and no meant yes. I was caught between believing this authority figure and believing myself.
He explained to the State Board that I was in the grip of powerful transference and in my mind, he had become my parent. Not only was this guy pretending to be a therapist, he was pretending to be a mind reader.
Disequil: Whatever happened to the therapist as a result? Did the State Board take any action against his license??
His offense was belittling and trying to keep me in treatment despite a clear breakdown of our relationship. So the only complaint “category” that approached that was “failure to refer.” I lost my case. A discerning reader would see the therapist’s response was contradictory. He admitted to my specific accusations, then argued his actions were for my benefit. He went on to interpret my state of mind, which would required psychic talents! His defense was to discredit me, and it worked.
A journalist told me that it’s difficult enough to get a judgment in of blatant sexual abuse cases. My case was far more subtle. A friend above caught a social worker in provable insurance fraud and all sorts of dual role conflicts. The state gave him a wrist slap.
Disequilibrium’s May 23 comment, “Not only was this guy pretending to be a therapist, he was pretending to be a mind reader,” brings up a thought that often occurred to me in therapy: The therapists I tried seemed to think they could read my mind, and that I could read theirs. As an example of the former, it was not uncommon for a therapist to give me permission for the opposite of what I was trying to give myself permission for, and to reassure me of the opposite of what I was concerned about.
Communication was such a problem in therapy. I tended to put miscommunications down to my difficulties with oral communication/thinking on the spot/coping with personal attention. But, on the one hand, those were a large part of what I went to therapy to improve on, and, on the other hand, the therapists seemed to be “exemplars” of poor communication, as well as of jumping to conclusions based on minimal evidence. As an example of both of the latter: One therapist, after I had said very little about my mother, said she had a certain personality disorder. When I asked for an explanation of what the disorder consisted of, the therapist said only, “It’s like this character in this film and that character in that film.”
Part of my naivete in trying therapy was that I expected therapists would set good examples. They were far from it.
Mary, I never saw a therapist with humility that he/she couldn’t understand me from a brief contact and narratives. Putting people in “categories” itself is enormous simplification with implications for future interaction. How does a therapist decide that someone they never met is “narcissist,” as if the appropriate degree of self-centeredness can be gauged? Of course if we’re not self-centered enough we’re avoidant or dependent.
And I also wonder if stuffing human personality and interactions into theoretical cubbyholes leaves communication hopelessly distorted.
In retrospect, my first encounter with my worst therapist (to be fair here, I like her, she is a very nice and caring person but a horrible therapist) she already diagnosed me. Then, as I described others in my life she was diagnosing them as well. She had everything mapped out in neat little categories that weren’t relevant to me or to the others I talked about. When I challenged this she said it was one of my many complexes fighting to survive. I realize how deluded this woman is now. She has everything answered for herself and any challenge to her worldview must be too difficult for her to handle.
Reblogged this on PsychotherapySphere and commented:
Valuable perspective from the client’s side. Can’t agree with everything that’s written here, but I count description of six significant ethics violation. Wish Disequilibrium1 knew how many ethical, competent therapists already follow her seven suggestions.
Few people, including Disequilibrium1, are saying that there are no ethical therapists. Personally, I have never met a therapist either in practice, in casual conversation, or in the interview/research process that I would find to be competent in helping me. Competent, perhaps, according to a state licensing board and the educational system. I am not saying there aren’t any, just none that I have been impressed with and a few of those people are acquaintances and/or friends who I consider to be decent human beings. Personally, I have been able to resolve issues for myself through journaling and self-reflection. The therapists I have experienced are too eager to impose theories than take the time to understand unique situations and actually delve into another person’s situation. Whatever. For myself I am done with the game. It’s expensive and a waste of time for myself as well as many who comment on this blog. If it were up to me about 80% in your profession would be stripped of their licenses and the other 20 strictly regulated. As Mel Brooks’ character in High Anxiety said about Freud, Jung, and Adler …These people have given us “A Nice Living…”. I have met few people who have spent years devotedly in therapy who I would consider to be mentally or emotionally healthy. And I truly believe it’s psychotherapy (and its practitioners) that has caused, rather than healed, many of their ills.
“Wish Disequilibrium1 knew how many ethical, competent therapists already follow her seven suggestions.”
…………………………………………..
If Disequilibrium1 were to say “She wishes Mr. Miller knew her blog never claimed to be a census of ethical, competent therapists”… how would he receive the tone of that sentence?
OK. (Slaps self.) I’ll stop talking in third person since both of us are in the room. 😉
Though I’m lightly playing with the “wish Disequilibrium1 knew…” sentence, I have a point. It’s easy for therapists to convey a sense of “higher rank” with their clients. “I wish he knew” is not a sentence I would begin to a friend I hoped to keep.
I never intended my personal narrative as a universal invective against “bad doctors.” In fact, I intentionally sped through my worst experience to get to a more general exploration–that the very paradigm of psychotherapy was harmful to me.
You’re welcome to educate me how many therapists are truly egalitarian. I found through a bad referral that no one truly knows what happens in anyone else’s consulting room.
Parsing aside, I appreciate the link as well as the adjective “valuable.”
Points well taken. I wrote that line addressing my blog’s readers, not you personally. Thanks again for writing your post.
Oh, I get it now. I re-blogged your post to my blog. I didn’t realize the comment I added to my blog would also appear here. Sorry to sound so impersonal.
I was delighted you made the comment for I feel it illustrates the explorations in my blog.
To reiterate, I never intended a generalized smear of therapists’ ethics or competency, though I sense you might have taken that from the essay. I intended it as exploration of the potential harm from an unnatural and asymmetrical relationship. I found its framework demeaning even with “ethical, competent” therapists.
Might we ourselves be demonstrating 1) the difficulty of communicating 2) how easily syntax might communicate a presumption of hierarchy? And we’re two strangers under no contract.
I think the comment “no one truly knows what happens in anyone else’s consulting room” is VERY important. Most professionals have other people observe their behavior and/or actions – but NO ONE ever sees what the therapist says to his/her client. NEVER. No witnesses. I am a lawyer, and my behavior is observed by other lawyers, judges, office staff, etc. (True that in certain fields of law this does not happen). Same as to: doctors, nurses, etc. Therefore, I think that someone who ‘needs’ to: be in power; and/or is Angry and wants to ‘dump’ on others; and/or needs to control, etc. is particular drawn to becoming a therapist. Along with this, many people with personality disorders, such as borderline p.d., narcissistic p.d. are also drawn to becoming therapists. It is a made-in-heaven situation for them: besides having ‘no witnesses’, the therapist gets to mistreat those who are ‘weak’, need help from the therapist, and are very vulnerable. In other words, people who will probably NOT disagree with the therapist.
I am not suggesting answers here. BUT I think group therapy, generally, is better for people than individual therapy. There, you have OTHER PEOPLE present. It still may not do the trick (I have had some problems with therapists leading groups as well), but it may be better.
btw – I LOVE this blog! For years now, I have been thinking about the horrible therapists I have had, and finally, I get to share this with others and also hear their thoughts and stories.
Resharpen, thanks. I love this discussion and feel privileged that it’s generated such thoughtful, insightful responses.
My reactions split in two directions.
My worst therapists were definitely were the bullies you describe. The punishment this happened in GROUP therapy! When a therapist shrieked at a client, the group remained intimidated. When the therapists directed each of us to give two descriptors of a particularly withdrawn new client, everyone else complied with disparagement. When the therapists scolded me to discourage my termination, the group sat silent. We we were not to communicate with each other between sessions or know each other’s last names. The members themselves were much nicer than the therapists– I can imagine crueler scenarios.
I experienced other categories of therapists. Call one the “path to hell is paved with good intentions.” Very warm, very empathetic therapists still can undermine us through their own needs to rescue. The last thing I needed was more parenting. And the dynamic remains authoritarian/supplicant, though in a more subtle way.
Last in my experience was…gasp…an updated psychoanalysis. The therapist was a successful as humanly possible being a blank slate, while simultaneously warm. She wasn’t condescending. She delivered wise epigrams. What went wrong? The process of unearthing the past sent me on a natural LSD trip. Everything was magical, spiritual and psychedelic, and I don’t do drugs. My journey failed to purge any demons, give catharsis or leave me more suitable to life on the planet. It definitely undermined my relationships. I was a few seats short of the delusional lady at the bus station, albeit with cleaner clothes.
In my experience, the “nice” therapists inflicted harm as well as the mean ones. I regret going anywhere near the process.
Apologies for replying to a 3 year old comment once again (slowly making my way through the comments, to find perspectives that can help me sort through my dilemma), but I wanted to remind anyone who may still be reading–and resharpen, if they happen to be–that “borderline” is not synonymous with unprofessional, manipulative, or harmful. I have BPD. Unlike NPD, a BPD diagnosis alone does not imply a lack of ability to empathize or feel remorse, which is what makes NPD and ASPD (psychopathy) dangerous– for many of us, those two capacities are heightened to a degree that can be debilitating. It’s an illness–or a learned defense against early struggles in life, depending on your personal outlook. I prefer the latter, as everyone has these to some degree, but it interferes more with some people’s lives than others.
I’m also aware of how these traits manifest in myself and I’m doing my best to unlearn them: I’m realizing, for one, that I am very vulnerable in the context of therapy because of them and am trying to make the right decision on how to proceed despite how I feel (and my feelings are intense and compelling), so forgive me if I feel awfully insulted by the implication that we’re all harmful people who lack insight into ourselves and the dynamics between ourselves and others. And I absolutely have no desire to “prey on the weak”, as again, I’m very familiar with (read: I EMPATHIZE with) what it’s like to be in a vulnerable position. Many with BPD traits are (though some have other PDs where lack of empathy can be a trait).
After all, harmful therapists without BPD exist, and the system itself is highly flawed. Your therapist that you mentioned in an earlier comment especially, should not have been one though, I absolutely agree (and I’m sorry this was your experience), because as an individual she sounds horrendously immature.
I use the language of PDs and diagnoses for the sake of simplicity, though I’m beginning to question the construct. I’m only familiar with my own (which includes what you may call social anxiety and/or AvPD), but I can trace them back to their origins very clearly. I’ve experienced them as extreme reactions towards an emotionally (at times physically) violent environment that I spent the first chunk of my life in (and to some degree, am still in). But we all are shaped by our environment, and it makes sense that that manifests differently and to different extremes in every person.
Sorry again for the 3-years-late derail. I just hate to see a group of people that are incredibly vulnerable to the aspects of therapy that most of us in these comments are criticizing, be lumped together as manipulators who prey on others. Personally, reading this, I feel like I’m being kicked when I’m already down.
Foxes: You are right, as that what made my therapist a problem for me is not simply that she had BPD, but the individual TRAITS that SHE had stemming from that that was very troubling for me. Not all BPD people have the same traits – or they may share a particular trait, but exhibit them differently, or in radically different degrees. A big Congrats on finding help for yourself. I wish you the very best with that, and hope you can find the right type of help.
Foxes – I certainly did NOT mean to hurt you, or other BPDs. However, there are BPDs who I agree have empathy, yet have OTHER traits connected with BPD who should not be therapists. I wish you all the best with finding whatever helps you!
Hello all. Haven’t been on this blog for some time. I am glad to see that the discussion keeps going.
Disequilibruim, I see that Mr. Miller reposted your essay but it doesn’t look like he had obtained your permission to do so first. I can also see that you didn’t mind that, but, generally speaking, there is an etiquette for reposting materials online just like in the printing business. The permission of the author is always required for reposting. Normally, people don’t mind because it works for both parties. For the one reposting it’s an additional interesting content on their website and for the one being reposted it’s an additional exposure. So, it’s a win-win for both. However, asking for a permission to repost is necessary as a basic sign of respect.
That all being said, I’d like to ask your permission to repost your essay. I’d like to have it on my website but I never repost other people’s creative work without their permission. I’d hate if someone did that to me and so, as the saying goes, “do unto other as you would have them do to you”..
Hello WiseMonkey. Thanks for asking my permission, and I’m honored to have you repost my blog on your website. I’ve enjoyed http://therapyconsumerguide.com/ and its valuable content.
Mr. Miller’s inadvertent post to my blog notwithstanding, its backhanded preface was an interesting exchange. Along with the compliment was ad hominem innuendo, then rejoined by a colleague on Mr. Miller’s blog post.
…….
“It is very sad to read what she has written and then to see 538 comments following below. She is a great writer I will give her that but I am lucky to get one comment after my posts. I think that when people see a bad “doctor” they assume they all are. Once you have your mind made up that they will be a certain way, they are. If you want to learn and grow, you put yourself out there and ask the Gods for a teacher, and then one will be shown to you. ”
……………
As I responded, I would feel condescended to if that life lesson were delivered to me.
Doesn’t everybody love having someone instruct us how to “learn and grow”?
Hierarchy, pecking order, often is created through subtext. Dominance, control and discrediting often is communicated through subtle language.
Here the therapists not only imply something I never said , but the rejoinder discusses “people” (who are too stupid/emotionally unfit?) to understand the specific isn’t universal. The ad hominem innuendo and straw man response evades the core discussion.
I didn’t create this blog about bad therapists. Most of my therapists were good by their profession’s standard. I’m discussing how what’s considered good therapy can cause harm. I’m questioning models which can foster practitioner arrogance and leave clients feeling more inferior and debilitated as the result of treatment.
“I didn’t create this blog about bad therapists. Most of my therapists were good by their profession’s standard. I’m discussing how what’s considered good therapy can cause harm. I’m questioning models which can foster practitioner arrogance and leave clients feeling more inferior and debilitated as the result of treatment.”
This is beautifully stated. And I couldn’t agree more that the very structure of therapy relationships — no matter how “good” the therapist is — is dehumanizing and harmful. I wish more people would apply more critical thinking in this area. One of the best discussions I’ve seen on this topic is here: http://www.criticalmethods.org/hook.htm
I second that. Beautifully stated. I have seen 7 therapists, over various stages of my life, and the issue wasn’t that they were good or not but that they imposed views upon me that had nothing to do with either my problems or the root of my problems. Those encounters left more problems for me to deal with than I had. I can see that clearly now but was under such a cloud for years because of it. No more. And thanks again Disequilibrium1 for this blog and thread.
Thank you for your contributions. I still catch myself under the tyranny of therapy-think. It’s an insidious mindset to purge. I also experienced therapy as an interference in my maturation rather than an assist.
http://www.criticalmethods.org/hook.htm
is a powerful exploration. And I agree wholeheartedly. I wish there was more exploration. As we saw above, discussion of therapeutic paradigms might be deflected via ad hominem innuendo or outright attack on the messenger.
The paper above is “The psychological imperialism of psychotherapy”
Sharonne Isack & Derek Hook, Paper presented at the 1st Annual Qualitative Methods Conference: “A spanner in the works of the factory of truth”
20 October 1995, University of the Witwatersrand, South Africa
I believe I’m kosher reprinting brief excerpts:
“The ‘psychological paternalism’ of psychotherapy….
The implicit superiority, the psychological scrutiny allowed such a position, the diagnostic power, the self-actualization, the ability to recognize the client’s turmoils, to understand and interpret them, amounts to a new kind of patriarchy. Whether ‘debriefing’ trauma, dialogue-ing phobias, losses, griefs, whether talking-through, whether psychoanalytically distanced or not, whether humanistically proximal or not, the therapist is always ‘secure’, is always implicitly more psychological able. .”
“The impotence of empathy
The neutrality and objectivity that especially trainee therapists, and indeed some whole philosophies of therapy advocate, that very professionalism negates and obfuscates the naturalness, the reality of the experience, the therapist’s ‘genuineness’. It can never become anything more than a contrived atmosphere. “
To address an earlier point about the ethics of therapy, I would argue that the lack of transparency about methodologies and risks of adverse effects, and thus the lack of true informed consent, does set it up as a practice grounded in manipulation. And any practice that requires manipulation/dishonesty with a fellow human is exploitative and unethical.
I agree. Other specialists like my allergist were clear that treatment doesn’t always work. They communicate much more realistically about what they offer.
The problem of informed consent in psychotherapy is complex. I might never have understood to what I was consenting. Therapists themselves often don’t seem to understand the ramifications of an asymmetrical power dynamic.
It never occurred to the therapists the last thing my deferential self needed was the influence of another authority figure.
This is such a multifaceted topic, that it’s hard to know where to begin. For now I’ll just note that any business that depends on its customers *not* understanding what they’re signing up for in order to sustain itself is manipulative, and therefore unethical. For example, if a therapist informed clients about the possibility of experiencing transference, feeling invalidated, or being subject to inquiries or subtle suggestions that may cause one to acquire destructive beliefs about one’s childhood or other personal relationships, then surely her business would tank. So the therapist withholds important safety information in order to keep customers. This is the hallmark of dishonest, unethical business practice.
Yes, no one would give warnings like:
. You might regress into a helpless childish state
. You might obsess about therapy so much you barely can function.
. Therapy might encourage your self-obsession to the point you lose friends.
. You might develop a distorted, idol-like view of your therapist which he will enjoy and encourage.
I wrote a ‘response’ to the New York Times article by Sanderson re: the fact that talk therapy affects the brain. They didn’t publish it, but here is my response:
Concerning “Invitation to a Dialogue: Benefits of Talk Therapy”, the author is correct insofar that talk therapy does affect the brain. However, he fails to mention an enormous problem, that many therapists are very poor at their jobs. A growing mental health consumer’s movement have reported a multitude of cases where therapists: degrade their clients; talk only about themselves and their own problems; order their clients, in a militaristic style, to ‘obey’ their commands; are racist, anti-Semitic, and/or extremely sexist; bond with their clients, and then manipulatively ‘convince’ them that only ‘they’, the therapists, can ‘save’ them. These are only a few examples. Unfortunately, the state boards that license this profession will not discipline therapists, short of them sleeping with their clients. Also, besides wasting our valuable time and money, the emotional devastation that results after telling a therapist your deepest secrets, forming a close bond with him or her, and then having to leave because of the therapist’s gross mistreatment causes tremendous wounds. The author IS right: talk therapy does affect the brain, and horrific talk therapy affects the brain in devastating ways.
I gathered Sanderson began that conversation to put out more puff for the mental health industry. I’m not surprised by his disinterest in critical consumers.
I submitted a reply that was not published, as well. I also argued that therapy can indeed affect the brain, and in very harmful ways.
If anyone’s interested: The published responses to the “Invitation” are at http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/sunday-dialogue-treating-mental-illness.html?pagewanted=all.
My summary: Most are from mental health practitioners, most of them touting talk therapy, although one says that much talk therapy is poor. One is from a client saying talk therapy didn’t help but medication did. One is from a client saying only a combination of talk therapy and medication helped.
The doctor who initiated this dialogue is a psychoanalyst. Not difficult to imagine his agenda. The respondent who was only helped by medication appears to be one of my American Studies professors.
Yes, it’s no surprise that the psychoanalyst finds psychoanalysis to be beneficial. There is not even a pretense of objectivity, balance, or genuine inquiry.
One interesting comment from the replies:
“…Western psychotherapies are grounded in certain intellectual and professional traditions that privilege concepts like the importance of “insight” or self-understanding. Different cultural orientations understand the self and mind differently, and insight may not always be the right goal. We thus need to examine carefully our psychotherapeutic techniques and their benefits (or lack thereof) for our heterogeneous population.” — IAN HSU
My reply to a comment above, from another blog:
Re: “If you want to learn and grow, you put yourself out there and ask the Gods for a teacher, and then one will be shown to you.”
Are you kidding?! This statement of yours is an excellent example of MANY of the complaints clients of therapists have made on Disequilibrium’s blog.
1. You, the ‘therapist’ are far superior to the ‘lowly client’, as you are telling us the ‘way’ to learn and grow. Your opinion ‘must be obeyed; you have all the answers’, etc.
2. You blame the victim, pure and simple. It is OUR fault, that we do not have a good therapist. You NEVER say ONE word re: how the therapist could be at fault. So Typical.
3. Silly simple ‘fix-its’ – all we troubled clients have to do is ‘ask the Gods’ for a teacher, and the teacher will simply be sent to us. Are You Kidding?? So many of us have been searching for a decent therapist (I did it for years, then quit). What you are saying is akin to putting your ‘tooth’ under your pillow at night, so that the tooth fairy can replace it with some money. That does work, when you are a young child and have parents who play the tooth fairy.
You should open your eyes, and see that many of us have been abused by therapists; just read the blog. And stop blaming the victims.
All you say above. Plus his zen master schtick seems so high-handed, a prime example about what we’ve been discussing here.
Yes, therapists are notorious for trying to deflect criticism they can’t answer by blaming the victim. Those who don’t have reason on their side often resort to ad hominem attacks.
My response to a comment by a therapist on the Psychotherapy Sphere blog:
This is a response to “I count description of six significant ethics violation. Wish Disequilibrium1 knew how many ethical, competent therapists already follow her seven suggestions.”
THis is a VERY good point. So – just how many are out there?
The truth is that neither you, nor I or ANYONE else will ever know. I wrote about this on Disequilibrium1′s blog. In a therapy session, there are ONLY two people in the room. That’s it. If you ‘hear’ about a therapy session from a poor therapist, what do you think that therapist will tell you? Well, certainly not about how they were not a good therapist. For example, have you EVER heard a therapist tell you that a client was disgruntled with the therapist, and that THE CLIENT HAD A POINT!!!??? Have you ever heard a therapist tell you any of the following: that he screamed at the client throughout the session; that he refused to speak to the client during the session, instead telling the client that he couldn’t do so, BECAUSE the client had ‘so much going on’; that he took up at least 1/2 the time of the session, telling the client all about the THERAPIST”S own problems; that when a client told him that she was not sure if she wanted another child, that he ‘lectured’ the client that she should not, never asking her about what her issues were, or listening to her at all; that even though the following was not a TOPIC being discussed by the client, that he told the client his problems with his own wife, calling his wife an anti-Semitic name, and when the client told him she herself was Jewish, he just said “Well, that’s what she is”.
I could go on and on; these are simply a few of the encounters I have had with poor therapists. I am NOT saying that ALL therapists are bad, by any means. I am simply pointing out that NO ONE but the client and therapist truly know whether a particular therapist is ‘ethical and competent’. Neither you, nor I, can truthfully say the % of therapists who are.
In response to concerns about therapists’ and survivors’ communication:
Mutual listening, learning, and understanding is indeed valuable. One of the problems with those on the practitioner “side,” however, is that they are taking precious time and money from vulnerable clients — and harming some along the way — while engaging in this process. I believe that these issues being explored on Disequilibrium1′s blog need to be sorted out *before* being tried out on the public (without their fully informed consent). As things stand now, there may be too much collateral damage to make the practice of therapy justifiable.
C.S. Lewis, in his dissertation to a graduating class at Oxford, once said much of science was akin to sorcery in that it was not after the pure knowledge (science) of a thing but to manipulate the elements of nature for other purposes (control, money, etc.). I think there is truth to this statement and it applies quite well to psychotherapy. There is much unproven manipulation of emotions and psyche as well as manipulation of the patient for the sake of money in addition to the therapist’s ego. My one therapist diagnosed so many things in my discussions as depression when that wasn’t even close to what it was. She believed in alchemy as being a valid means of transformation. All interesting in theory but of no use to me pragmatically. I was very angry for many reasons when I entered into her practice, I left 15 times as angry when I finally got it that she was doing me no good. She transformed me alright but not in any way that I expected or would want others to ever experience.
Yes, in psychotherapy, the application precedes the research. We can trace one fad after another.
Wanted to thank a contributor for this story link about the new DSM-V .
By the way, I can respond to most private emails, unless the software obfuscates them, which happens in some instances. If you’d like me to respond, please send an email address via the contact form in the “about” section.
As a follow-up to my previous comment, It’s also worth noting that the burden of proof lies with she who asserts a positive. In this case, the burden of proof lies with she who asserts that therapy is justified despite the collateral damage, not with its critics. People cannot be expected to prove the null hypothesis, or to show that something does *not* work or is *not* the case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm
The thing here that differentiates the therapists’ and survivors’ “side” is that the therapists are taking precious time and money from vulnerable clients, and harming some along the way, while the risks are still not well understood. The survivors, on the other hand, are engaging in a dialogue, but are not running the risk of making a living by harming people.
Anon-
You are so right. “The survivors . . . are NOT running the risk of making a living by harming people.”
What angers me so much is that many therapists have serious psychological problems of their own, BUT YET THINK THEY CAN TREAT CLIENTS! And, ironically, THEY are in the profession of having learned to detect psychological problems, diagnosing them, and how to treat them. Yet they are beyond oblivious when THEY have these problems. To the therapists who screamed at me, I am sure that if I told them that boyfriends have screamed at me, they would say “that is wrong. They are not treating you as they should.” Yet, I have NEVER seen a therapist see that they, themselves, have the same behavior.
I used to have a friend who had a Ph.D. in psychology. What I am going to tell you is unbelievable. She actually told me that she ‘used’ to have borderline personality disorder, but that she no longer has it, because SHE, alone, cured herself. Of course, she was the one who had originally diagnosed herself with the disorder. Meanwhile, I had noticed, even before her ‘announcement’ re: her ‘prior’ disorder that she treated men very badly, that she acted ‘superior’ to everyone else (including myself), and she even told me that SHE knew herself ‘psychologically’ better than anyone else knew themselves. OY!
Finally, she told me that she had been sexually abused by her brother when she was much younger. As she was also going through a divorce, I suggested that she see a therapist. Her response was mumbling that she and her ex husband had seen a marital counselor and she could go to her, if she cared to. Of course I knew that she would NEVER see a therapist, as my friend ‘knew’ she was superior to any therapist.
SO . . . of course, this former friend is a psychotherapist! Of course she must treat her clients at minimum, like she treated me – she is superior to them, is psychologically more astute about herself than they could ever be about themselves, and she hates men. I can’t imagine how horribly she treats her male clients. Yet, because she had ‘cured’ herself years before, SHE didn’t need therapy herself.
I finally had to stop being friends with her; I felt I was in a complex ‘maze’ in a madhouse with no way out when she talked to me. I thought of telling her the truth, but all my friends told me not to bother. She wouldn’t listen anyway.
AND this woman is a therapist! She should know better – and if any of her colleagues have even a whiff of what I knew about – and they MUST – they should turn her into the licensing board, and/or talk to her about getting serious therapy herself.
The above is a great article re: why talk therapy ‘often’ doesn’t work.
“Psychotherapy doesn’t have an “image problem”: it has an evidence problem. The treatments provided by most therapists are not those shown to work and the treatments shown to work are hard to find because therapists don’t practice them, since instead they instead want to “go deep”
In a Q&A with the Association for Psychological Science, Kazdin described the problem this way: “Most of the treatments used in clinical practice have not been evaluated in research. Also, many of the treatments that have been well established are not being used.”
Psychology studies are notorious for being riddled with shady data practices, including confirmation bias, file-drawer effects, allegiance effects, etc. And the (unfalsifiable) anecdotes/”cases” don’t cut it either, and don’t distinguish psychologists from motivational speakers, psychics/palm readers, gurus, mystics, cult leaders, or other snake-oil vendors that prey on vulnerable clients while maintaining the support of enthusiasts full of anecdotes extolling their life-changing benefits.
http://www.nature.com/news/psychology-must-learn-a-lesson-from-fraud-case-1.9513
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2013/feb/27/psychologists-bmc-psychology
http://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-mystery-of-the-missing-experiments
I’m curious how a positive outcome even can be evaluated. Therapy did function like a well-polished motivational speaker or an Oprah episode. It buoyed me with optimism that I’d conquer the world and live my best life. My therapists were thrilled because their compliant, suggestible client could be counted as of their brilliant successes. My buoyancy lasted until I smacked against my own limitations once again.
As I suspected my life wasn’t changing, magically or otherwise, so I’d return for another injection. It took me a long time to realize I’d been sold a bill of goods.
A friend went through one of those pyramid “motivational” programs where people attend long seminars in the hotel banquet hall. She reported same effect.
Good article re: gaslighting; And just how many of us have been ‘gaslighted’ by therapists?!!
How to recognize when you’re being gaslighted:
You’re being told that what was said to you was not. You’re certain it was, but with repeated insistences that you are mistaken, you begin to doubt yourself and become confused. You aren’t entirely sure anymore, even though you were sure before being exposed to the denials. You may be told that you “have a vivid imagination” or that you’re “crazy” or “losing your mind”.
You are told that events did not happen (or did not happen as badly as you recall). You feel hurt and confused, because you knew they did; however, now you’re repeatedly being told you’re mistaken. Over time, you may feel doubtful, resentful, confused or conciliatory. You may even apologize to the gaslighter for things you haven’t done, or for having behaved so “irrationally” when initially refuting the gaslighter’s claims.
.Gaslighting is common among those with Cluster B Personality Disorders.
More Here: http://lightshouse.org/lights-blog/gaslighting#ixzz2Ud1FZtad
Gaslighting is an accurate word for my experience. I went in circles whether to believe myself or this “authority figure” whose perceptions diametrically opposed mine. Never mind the therapist was telling me about my own thoughts and feelings.
Sigrun above recommended the book:
“Gaslighting, the Double Whammy, Interrogation and Other Methods of Covert Control in Psychotherapy and Analysis”: http://amzn.to/awsLIQ
which I very much enjoyed.
My ex-therapist, I believe, is delusional but the definition of gaslighting is exactly what she did. Through her “superhuman powers” of intuition she was always arguing with me about most anything I told her. The only problem here was that I didn’t buy into it and fought back. Thus, it was my complex fighting for survival rather than her lame and misdirected intuition causing the problem. The way I liken it today is that any half-formed thought that passed was actually gas from the lower extremities getting stuck in the empty space between her ears.
GW – very tragic to you, which is awful – but lol!
Resharpen – As angry as I get at times about her, I am graced with enough of a sense of humor to be able to see the comic side of the situation. I even have a cartoon character modeled after her. Nonetheless, I’d like to help others avoid my folly.
I have replied to the following comment by therapist Miller on his blog: Psychologysphere.
Jonathan Miller, Ed.M, LPCC
May 28, 2013 at 9:16 PM
Sorry, but I don’t know why the posts appear as they do.
As for my earlier comments, if I meant to compare Disequilibrium1′s group to the NRA, I would have compared them to the NRA. I mentioned them because their power comes from the time they devote to their cause. They have the well-funded lobbyists ReSharpen mentions because they devote their money to it as well.
Too many people with worthy causes throw up their hands helplessly because because they feel outmatched. If reforms are necessary, I hope Disequilibrium1′s group will organize to push for those. The NRA is proof that citizens (even those with unpopular points of view) can hold sway in Washington DC.
Reply
resharpen
May 28, 2013 at 10:17 PM
As I have already stated, our blog has agreed to ‘organize’ at some point, including educating the public re: poor therapists.
HOWEVER, therapists themselves – especially good ones, such as yourself – have an obligation to join us. You yourself have noted activities of unethical therapists. Decent lawyers, such as myself, have also supported laws, regulations, etc., to CLEAN UP our profession. Post-Watergate, all lawyers were mandated to take ethics classes or courses, and new lawyers had to take and pass an ethics exam. The push for these came from Judges and Lawyers’ Groups! (However, I will say that if a lawyer wants to ‘rob’ his clients, etc., he’ll do so in spite of ‘ethics’ courses).
This point I just made is SO emblematic of many therapy professionals. It is exactly in line with when a client tells his therapist a criticism about the therapist, and the therapist almost NEVER states that he or she was wrong, in any way, shape or form. OR its the magic ‘I don’t remember saying that . . . ‘ even though the prior session took place only a week before OR the old standby of ‘Your criticism is really about yourself/due to your own neuroses/due to your ridiculous attitudes, etc.’ Blame the Victim.
You have read in our blog the mountains of comments exactly along these lines which have been written by victim/clients re: these very situations.
As to the NRA, they DO NOT have an ‘unpopular point of view’, not in the least. Just look at the numbers. AND, importantly, do you REALLY think a cause of ours will ever attract even a tiny % of the amount of contributions that the NRA receives? Please. There are FAR more gun owners, gun manufacturers, and retail gun store owners than the number of ex-clients who have been screwed by their therapists who are willing to do something about it en mass.
ANd for many of us the only act we will take to stop the damage from a bad therapist is to simply stop seeing that therapist. That solves the individual’s problem pretty easily. Plus, it’s not like our livelihood depends on organizing against poor therapists. PLUS – just guess who will oppose us?? ALL the Associations whose members are therapists – all the corporations, professional therapy ‘centers’, mental health clinics, etc. – and THEY have money.
In spite of this, I have never been one to ‘throw up our hands in the air’. You need to understand that ANY new movement starts with discussions among those who are interested in that cause. You can’t simply yell ‘organize’ and expect people to immediately join you. I, myself, have been active in many movements and know this personally.
Once I can, I plan to organize with others. This horrific treatment of vulnerable souls who become ‘clients’ merely because they really need therapeutic help – It Must Stop. And you should seriously consider joining us.
There’s something a little ahem, challenging, about telling others “too many people throw their hands in the air helplessly.” I categorize it in the same bin with “If you want to learn and grow, you put yourself out there and ask the Gods for a teacher.”
I see the burden of professional reform essentially is on the profession.
I don’t know how many people have been in psychotherapy, but I’d estimate that a significant percentage of them (especially those who’ve experienced the psychodynamic/psychoanalytic variety) have been harmed more than helped. Despite the large numbers, however, it is difficult for many survivors to speak out due to the very personal, private, painful, and traumatizing nature of the experience. There is also often a perceived stigma around having sought therapy, and a great deal of blaming the victim, which deters victims/survivors from speaking out. I, for one, still struggle to share my story and fear the potential consequences if I post it under my full name. (I hope to gather the courage to “come out” more fully with time.)
This is akin to what many date rape survivors experience. In fact, if you substitute ‘trust’ for ‘love,’ and ‘given a false promise of safety’ for ‘being lied to,’ then the links below about emotional rape describe my experience with therapy:
http://enpsychopedia.org/index.php/Emotional_Rape
http://zeidspex.blogspot.com/2007/02/emotional-rape-what-is-it.html
http://laurakamienski.blogspot.com/2009/04/emotional-rape-syndrome-how-to-survive.html
http://laurakamienski.blogspot.com/2009/04/emotional-rape-syndrome-how-to-survive.html
http://violenceunsilenced.com/
“… emotional rape is similar in many ways to physical rape, particularly date rape. Date rape involves the sexual use of someone’s body without consent which amounts to theft of the person’s physical sensorium. In a like manner, emotional rape is the theft of someone’s higher emotions, such as love [or trust], without consent. However, in the case of emotional rape the lack of consent is contained in the fact that the individual is being lied to by the perpetrator [or given a false promise of safety]. … It is no exaggeration to describe emotional rape as the most underrated trauma of our age; the effects are powerful and potentially destructive. Victims are forced to cope with a tangle of conflicting emotions, experiencing all the traumatic after effects of both rape and loss. This confused pattern of emotional responses is very similar to that experienced by victims of sexual rape. It’s a pattern commonly identified as post-traumatic rape syndrome, although victims of emotional rape will be unaware that this is what is happening to them. …”
Emotional (or physical) rape can occur in the context of asymmetrical dynamics in which one person (like many therapists with narcissistic wounds) seeks to feel powerful and in control by hurting another person or betraying their trust. Such people cannot handle being challenged or questioned, and will do whatever they can to regain a sense of power or control. The asymmetrical structure of therapy lends itself to this.
Resharpen, for all of the complaints people like to make about lawyers, nothing they do in a systematic way can lead to the kind of harm inflicted by therapy. Legal clients may get cheated out of money, but as long as the lawyer is doing her job, they won’t get cheated out of their emotional well-being.
I strongly support any movement to stop the dehumanizing practice of psychotherapy from continuing to accumulate more victims. And I also strongly support the encouragement of healthier, safer alternatives to therapy.
Anon
You make excellent points. A therapist who exploits his client in any way is causing horrendous emotional pain to the client. You’ve been there; I’ve been there; so many of us have. The really sad thing is – the therapists either don’t ‘realize’ what they are really doing, or don’t care. I often think because they are so Needy, and/or narcissistic, whatever themselves, that they are compelled to do whatever they ‘need’ to do to fulfill their own emotional compulsions – and the hell with what their clients need.
Your comment reminded me of a wonderful book which has helped me immensely:
“The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships” [by
Patrick Carnes Ph.D.
The book explains that when we feel close to someone, and then they do something awful to us, even if we walk away from them – the ‘betrayal’ causes a bond between us. A bond that is VERY strong and that takes time and ‘work’ to ‘dissolve’. It is so very similar to an event ‘out of the ordinary’ that causes a person to have PTSD. I think that perhaps it is a person’s mind trying to make sense of what happened (which is so hard, as it was bizarre); and also a way to protect us from a thing like that happening again. Excellent book.
In trying to move beyond my irrational therapy experience, I also tried to dissolve my tendency– our culture’s tendency–to see myself from a psychological framework. That’s almost like not-thinking-about-elephants on command and wasn’t easy. Psych labels make me feel damaged and slipping away from them feels freeing. I have to break a habit not to self-indulge about my self-indulgence about the self-indulgence.
You articulate another powerful reason why the framework inherent in the whole enterprise of therapy is so damaging. I sympathize with you, and would love to learn more about what works for you in breaking free from and moving past that psych mindset.
Anon, I can’t call my project complete.Therapy instilled I was a damaged hot-house flower, that my “negative emotions” were precious things to examine and cultivate, and when someone hurt me, that I needed to “set boundaries.” I believed in some magical transformation, a magic pain-free,fulfilled life, where I’m free to “be honest” and “ask for what I want.” I thought if I were “fixed,” I’d be more “normal.”
Therapy reinforced an external authority who’d supervise and judge me–someone with a wisdom I could never attain.
Forget that. I’m more accepting of my faults because everyone has them. My “unassertive” slow-to-anger personality can be an asset in some situations. Though experience given me more tools, and I can’t be all things in all situations.
Now I try to discard therapy’s labels, whether for myself or others. Yeah, people hurt me, but everyone has hurts, disappointments, and people who hurt them. I refuse to think of difficult people as “narcissistic.” They have their own hurts and things to protect. I try to think of ways if I have to deal with difficult people. I decide that though honesty is a worthy goal some times it’s most practical just to smooth things over.
In other words, I try to live life pragmatically and stop worrying about feeling damaged or fixing myself. The more I accomplish, the further I remove myself from therapy think. I’ve given up too on “normal.”
Every human being I’ve ever met has self-deception and vulnerabilities when I get to know them. I stopped believing therapy “heals” anyone and am highly dubious when someone makes that claim.
I try to roll back to a world with no therapy in it.
Disequilibrium1, I love this reply, and I love your spirit! Thank you for the inspiration.
[…] and thanks are owed to the thoughtful, intelligent discussion on Disequilibrium1′s blog: https://disequilibrium1.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/a-disgruntled-ex-psychotherapy-client-speaks-her-pie… To be edited and continued . . […]
Link to the wonderful blog above. I’ll also add it to the blogroll here.
Thank you!
A couple of links I found interesting. Rickross.com is devoted to combating and exposing cults. The more I reflect, the more I realize that cult-think occurs in everyday life in many forms. This is the site reading list:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/books/reading_list.html
Here are someone’s criteria for distinguishing science from pseudoscience:
http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/PSEUDO/moller.html
I liked Jeffrey Masson’s Final Analysis more than his better-known Beyond Therapy. His first-person account of his training was a house of horrors.
Disequi – Did you mean Masson’s book: Against Therapy?
resharpen, you’re right. Masson’s Against Therapy. Beyond Therapy is a funny play by Christopher Durang. (However the movie failed.)
Really excellent post. I’ve been in different types of therapy for a long time. My feeling is that there are no “rules” for what makes helpful therapy and what makes destructive therapy. You’re really at the mercy of how smart, good-willed, sensitive, cautious, wise, etc. the therapist is. If the therapist has those qualities – they’re probably going to more or less follow the rules you’ve set out. They’re probably going to spend time thinking about what’s helpful and shift strategies as needed. But if they don’t – they’re probably going to screw you up royally no matter how many rules they try to follow.
Cult think is practically the same thing as group think. Everything in life is a process including discerning what is true as well as what is right in a given situation or for a given person. I believe we need to be involved in our own health, whether it be physical or emotional. Thus, question your doctor and get a second or third opinion. Seek out alternative methods of healing and preventative health. Do the same for your emotional well-being. If you feel the need to go to a psychotherapist be wise in your choice, take from them what holds true for you and sift out the junk. Know when to move on or stop therapy altogether. I know people who are psychotherapy junkies. Almost a religion and that’s not healthy. Whatever your choice, control your destiny and don’t allow someone else do it for you.
I agree that many people are ‘psychotherapy junkies’. However, this may be because the therapists they see are NOT helping them, or doing for them what they should be doing. If a therapist, or cult leader, or parent, etc., is in that relationship primarliy to fulfill the therapist’s, etc., OWN needs, (which so often happens, as we know), the therapist can’t help the client. So the client goes from that one, to another, to another, to try to get help for his/her own hurts. I know; I was there once. Until I realized that the ‘problem’ was not ‘all me’ or even ‘mostly me’.
My therapists–even the “kind” ones–expected me to comply to their authority and accept their interpretations. Can’t remember the author who said this is like a small cult.
Another author–I can’t remember- talked about human potential seminars –how people LOVE them, think they work wonderfully, then keep going back for more. But that’s a complete contradiction. If people really found enlightenment, fixed their lives, they wouldn’t have to keep going.
disequilibrium1 and resharpen
Agree with what you say. I have encountered those with whom this is their religion (and the therapist, whomever that might be at the time, the priest/priestess of their cult). One person I know doesn’t see it as something you do for a time but something you need for a lifetime. This person is a dear friend. Very smart, but emotionally dependent on many things including therapy. They regularly change therapists but keep on going, and have been for over 35 years and thinks everyone should be doing the same. I have not known them for 35 years but have always felt that this was one of several emotional addictions they have that they feed on. In this case I just can’t blame the therapist(s) alone for the dependency. The HMO has also been freely giving this person Prozac w/o question for (most of) the 23 years they’ve been using it. I stayed with my last therapist for 6 months, and I would have some issues with him but one thing I was impressed with was that he laid out a course of action and made it clear that there would come a time that the need for therapy would be over with. That would be unheard of for my friend.
Interesting topic. A review of a book on the cult-like nature of therapy:
Yale psychiatric lecturer Charles Barber’s 2008 op-ed discusses severe cases and the importance of patient/client social support and self-determination.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/08/AR2008020803272.html?sid=ST2008021100863
Yes, I’ve concluded that it’s really important for people to have close friendships/partners in place *before* trying therapy, as one needs to be prepared and have support in place if/when the therapist engages in harmful behavior (betrayal of trust, gaslighting, co-dependent/narcissistic power games, emotional rape, etc.)
I agree. It is sad that this is the case. In my situation, part of what I hoped to gain from therapy was better skill in communicating effectively with my partner, as well as in other situations. (We eventually worked that out, but with no help from therapy. I am so grateful that he stood by me when I was going off the deep end as a consequence of therapy.)
“Trust” in therapy–putting oneself in someone else’s hands–already seems a fantasy, unrealistic goal. Even the kindest, most generous people I know eventually have some moments of irrational fear, competitiveness and things they need to protect. Pretending therapy is a “safe” place is a dangerous, fake theatre, and it certainly undermined my feelings of competency facing the big bad world outside.
Anon, I agree with you about the asymmetry. I think the Home Depot model is a move in a good direction.
Excellent article. I hope Barber’s words get under the skin of the establishment.
Here’s an hour video of Barber, though much of this is about the trend toward over-medicating. He reported the op-ed yielded many emails.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/199864-1
I especially appreciate Barber’s words, “Treatment is most effective when the patient is in charge and the ultimate expert in his or her own recovery. … Treatment works best when the doctor or therapist acts as a kind of expert consultant. As Home Depot puts it: “You can do it, we can help.”
These describe what I (naively, it turned out) expected when I started therapy. But what I found was entirely different — therapists seemed to see me a recalcitrant when I asked questions, made alternate suggestion, or even when I said something was helpful. One therapist even said, “Do you realize you’re asking me to give up my control?”
Even in the best case scenario Home Deopt model, the artificial asymmetrical structure of therapy relationships can be subtly disempowering.
Also, since no human or therapist is capable of being completely neutral, unbiased, and value free, the therapists’ views/feelings (including those based on their own psychological issues) will infect the nature of the inquiries, interpretations, and “insights” that are discussed. While this may not be so problematic in everyday relationships, the therapy structure, which sets up one person as a “professional” or “expert” and demands “trust” on the part of the client, is a recipe for harm.
Thank you Mary S. for mentioning the words of Yale psychiatry lecturer Charles Barber: “Treatment is most effective when the patient is in charge and the ultimate expert in his or her own recovery. … Treatment works best when the doctor or therapist acts as a kind of expert consultant. ..”
I have noticed that most of us object to the tendency of many psychotherapists to dominate, to seize control, and this has been an important cause of our being hurt. We now have a double argument. When the therapist seizes control, this causes damage in some cases and it vitiates treatment generally. It would be great if this could be generally known. New clients could ask at the first interview whether the therapist had a patient-in-charge strategy and therapists could mention this on their websites. If the therapist subsequently failed to fulfill this requirement, the client would have a strong reason to leave.
Swiss brit, what you say makes so much sense. However, for me, I must say that I simply don’t trust most therapists anymore. I could walk in there and ask them what you had suggested. But, my experience has been that they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear, especially at the first session; and they may believe it themselves, at that time! But, at the sessions move on, the therapists own needs and compulsions come out, because they become too great, and you then see the ‘real therapist’ in his /her office.
I know I am probably an extreme case, because of all my bad experiences; and because I am very sensitive, and get hurt so easily. But, then again, we are talking about a therapist, right?! I have a right to break open in front of them and reveal what ever it is I need help for; If I can’t show them my vulnerabilities, who should I show them to? And then to feel like so many of them stomped right on my insides, even my heart, when I had opened myself to them – I just can’t put myself though it anymore.
I think power games, hierarchy and control are subtle things, and most people don’t know they’re being played. We’re aware growing up of some kind of pecking order in our school, but rarely how this is communicated. It’s much the same between therapists and clients, but in this supposed “safe” space, with its role playing, it causes a lot of damage.
I actually did have one therapist who didn’t leave me feeling subordinate, and she had some wise words. Here I led myself down a terrible rabbit hole of excavating my sorrows, which left me with the bad habit of agonizing on the worst.
Good points, resharpen and disequilibrium1.
Resharpen, I hope you don’t blame yourself or your (on-target) sensitivities. It seems common for victims to blame themselves, but, in my humble opinion, you did the bravest and wisest thing possible — recognize the destructiveness of the therapy relationship and leave.
Disequilibrium1, I agree that the promise of a “safe” space, and the betrayal and lost trust that is felt when that promise is discovered to have been false, is emotionally damaging.
Anon- thanks I used to say that my sensitivity was both my blessing and my curse. However, more and more, I see it as my blessing. I have just had to develop strength alongside it, so that when I feel hurt, I am strong enough to deal with it properly, and also take care of myself in a healthy way.
News item: couple committed suicide in New York; Woman, Lynn Rosen, was a psychotherapist who had radio talk show called: “The Pursuit of Happiness” . Her partner was a life coach & motivational speaker.
People are shocked but a long-time neighbor said:
” Littig “would come home frustrated and just bang on the drums at stranger hours,” said Ray, 50. “It drove my wife crazy.”
Littig would also “fly into these crazy rages and scream like a crazed animal,” Ray said. “My wife would go down and Lynne would say, ‘I can’t stifle what he does.’ She’s say, ‘You don’t understand. He’s hurting’.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/brooklyn-couple-committed-suicide-co-hosted-radio-show-article-1.1363804#ixzz2VfgtFlvJ
Proving once again it’s easy to advise everyone about live life than to live our own successfully. Oye.
Oye is right. I have come to believe that the structure and mindset of asymmetrical therapy relationships is just as harmful to therapists as it is to clients. Thanks for sharing, resharpen.
A couple of discussions on trusting therapists:
http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/trust-me-defense-therapeutic-relationship-0531138#comments
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ironshrink/201105/should-you-trust-your-psychologist/comments
Thanks for sharing. The stories in comments of the Psychology Today article — especially those by the children who were betrayed by their school psychologists and had their ability to trust shattered at such a young age — are heartbreaking. And it is also heartbreaking that people are willing to turn a blind eye to this harm, while the practice of clinical psychology continues to churn out more victims.
There are posts around the web from kids who think their therapist is incompetent and feel the responsible adults are oblivious. It is heartbreaking. I’m also bothered reading kids doing the therapy-speak…”I have self-esteem issues…I have trust issues.” I assume kids got those labels from some counselor The therapy “culture” is insidious.
The therapist I saw used gas lighting techniques on me. The first few sessions were fine but after about the fifth session she started playing games with me. She would minimize my own experience, ask questions in a provocative and abrupt manner and generally provoke me into questioning the validity of my thoughts and/or actions.
I think a certain amount of challenge can be useful and helpful, and it is certainly important to explore one’s own behavior and attitudes to determine how one can improve relationships with other people. However, I had already done this myself. I am quite a meticulous person who is careful in the way I treat other people and, if anything, I tend to take too much responsibility for things, allowing other people off the hook. In psychobabble terms, I introject and tend to let other people get away with bad behavior.
Rather than exploring this facet of my personality, which has lead to problems in my personal and professional life which eventually took me into therapy, she actually used it against me.
To the uninitiated, gas-lighting techniques are a real psychological nightmare, especially if you are the type of person who tends to take on too much responsibility and give other people too much of the benefit of the doubt.
Provocative questions, rapid-fire questions, rhetorical questions, using tone of voice which is harsh or judgmental, minimizing experiences, continually questioning the validity of feelings and responses – I consider all this to be a type of gas lighting. The more you try to rationalize or defend yourself, the more the gas lighter will up the ante – you are playing into their game after all!
The therapist I saw managed to evoke some quite strong emotional responses from me, which at the time I thought were cathartic, but with hindsight I realize she was using some rather crude techniques to elicit an emotional reaction in the way you might train a monkey. There was no real substance behind the type of ‘therapy’ she was practicing, no real follow up to the emotional reaction, no real empathy or understanding or compassion.
I ended up feeling like a puppet on a string, while she pulled the strings and I danced about.
Quackery, pure and simple.
And yet she has the letters after her name, she has the endorsement of professional bodies and she is supposed to be bound by their code of ethics. Perhaps not surprisingly she trained at a similar organisation to the one that I left in disgust before the end of the course.
It really is a shocking state of affairs and I do think that psychotherapy should come with a health warning.
Jorobs, I identify with things you say. When I went to therapy, I definitely was a follow-the-leader girl far past my childhood. I most needed to learn to hold my own opinions and not buckle in the the presence of a stronger personality. I described myself as tofu–taking the flavors of what’s around it. This made me a delightful, subordinate client, who curried the therapists’ egos. The process reinforced my immaturity. But what therapist will tell you to be less cooperative?
(Years later, I realize my gentleness and introjection sometimes is an asset, but continue to work on my bitch-when-needed skills:-).)
Actually, on e of my therapists DID want me to be ‘less cooperative’. but I felt it was done for her own needs – she was an extremely angry person who ‘had’ to fight with others, so she could get her anger out, or something along those lines.t
Ahh, a psychodrama, but only she knew the rules. Mine conversely, gave me a “script” to be more assertive…an assertive robot. I don’t think I could have overcome my subservience talking in an office. Had to live life.
This latest series of threads is so amazing to me. I can relate both from experience with problems in my own life as well as in dealing with therapists who want to control or know far less than they think. One of my problems, at a high level, has been allowing others’ opinions to form my opinion of myself. I was fighting to break out of that mold when my therapist wanted to force her sun-shiny opinion onto me rather than allow me to deal with some of my faults and take responsibility where it was mine to take. This just increased my conflicts and set fire to the smouldering rage already within me. Thank God I finally got it that it was OK for me to jump her Ship of Foolishness and swim to safe ground.
Those therapists who wear a ‘permanent’ smile on their faces make me crazy. I remember one, at an author’s talk re: a good book she had written on depression. (Author was not the smily therapist) This therapist there had a ‘smily’ answer to Everything. Where I lived at the time, for example, there was a number you could dial to get info on support groups, workshops,etc. However, much of the info was outdated. So when someone asked the author re: how to obtain info on sources that could help her, ‘Smily’ therapist automatically replied that the woman should simply ‘dial that number’. Well, I immediately told them that the info was often outdated, mistaken, etc. And Smily’s reaction? Still, that huge grin on her face. I just shook my head.
I think the big problem for the ‘sun shiny’ therapists, as you so well described your ex-therapist, is that they really can’t handle any negative emotions. Or they ‘think’ they can’t, is probably more like it. So they are always steering their clients, like you, GW, to see the sunny side of things, ALL the time. Once again, the therapists are doing what makes THEM comfortable. Forget about us! I also think it shows how troubled these therapists are –
Ah interesting, equilibrium – a tofu personality – yes, I think that was what I tended to be as well. I would be overly swayed and influenced by other people’s opinions and also tended to absorb other people’s moods. I presume this is something to do with having had a narcissistic parent. I do actually have quite strong opinions and views and can express them with people I know and trust. But somewhere along the route of growing up I must have learned that it is not a good thing to express yourself. Actually, both my parents discouraged honest discussion of emotions and feelings but I also think this was a cultural thing as well – especially for women who were expected to suppress their own emotional landscape while supporting that of their husbands/fathers etc. That was certainly the expectation in my family. My mother would tiptoe around my father who had a horrible temper avoiding doing anything at all that might provoke an onslaught.
What really annoyed me about the therapist I saw is that she was absolutely determined to get me to explore my responsibility in a situation whereby a work mentor verbally attacked me leading to a type of breakdown. The mentor obviously had some kind of personality disorder and was sadistic and took pleasure in psychologically breaking people down. She boasted that she always made her mentees cry. Once I had recovered enough to explore what had happened I saw that the mentor had planned the whole episode right down to derailing me before the meeting and being determined to get me into a room on my own with no witnesses. She then proceeded to undermine me and question my competence at every level using a provocative and suggestive tone of voice. Think of a sadistic teacher who always criticizes – that was her approach. As I am quite a fastidious, meticulous person who is also diligent it was manifestly unfair as well as hitting at my very core. But of course she knew this! Honestly, a total nutter – a psychopath!
Anyway, the therapist kept asking me: what did you do to make this situation happen as though I in some way should shoulder a share of the ‘blame’. That is a bit like asking a rape victim what they did to provoke the attack. It’s as simple as being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
She could usefully have explored how I could have handled the attack. For instance, I could have walked out of the room. I could have asked for a witness. I could have asked her to stop speaking and said she was talking to me inappropriately.
If it happens again, I will do those things. But I was totally blindsided. She took me completely unawares – it was also the opposite of what she was supposed to be doing. I was also in a very vulnerable position as I needed a pass from her in order to gain a much coveted qualification. So she knew she had be over a barrel and she exploited the power imbalance and my weak position. But that’s what people with psychological problems do – they create drama and tension and get off on it.
Anyway, back to the therapist – rather then helping me explore ways of dealing with this type of situation and how I could be more assertive, she effectively tried to apportion ‘blame’ onto me without in any way acknowledging the behavior of the mentor. And she would say things like: ‘what’s it like to be so angry?’ in a way that made me feel it was a freakish response when in actual fact it was a perfectly reasonable response to an extraordinary situation. At no point did she try to validate my experience she seemed more interested in invalidating it and using it as a tool to beat me over the head with.
When I emailed her to tell her I wanted to finish, she tried to entice me back by saying how important endings were. I was damned if I was going to give her another penny and no way was I going to sit in that room with her using her repertoire of little tricks to guilt me or shame me into staying in therapy. So I just ignored the email and blocked her email address. Best thing I ever did. My partner noticed how much happier I was after I finished seeing her!
I feel that’s what a wise person/therapist could have offered me as well–strategies to deal with difficult personalities, getting me on the road to problem-solving rather than feeling boxed in.
But I received scant wisdom from therapists, as opposed to friends, colleagues and even passersby. They were present in the real situation, not reviewing it remotely through a theoretical, jargonized lens. This reiterates what Barber says about a support system. Like you, jorobs, I reported workplace problems, and my therapists either said something theoretical or intimidating.
As I, ahem, age, I’ve acquired more of a tool box to deal with difficult people. Some therapists tutor their clients to “set boundaries” and even use “I statements” I-feel-anger-when-you-scream-at-me. I don’t see effective real life people using I statements to assert themselves–humor and sass even works better. And sometimes I see the difficulty of short duration choose to endure it, with more detachment, toward a larger goal.
I assume many of us had highly imperfect upbringings because few parents or teachers wisely enforce the right freedom-discipline balance. I think our maturation asks that we unravel rules of our closed systems and replace them with our own beliefs. Therapy only added another distorted world on top of my original one.
Jorobs – that is so horrible. Here you were so incredibly ‘jumped on ‘ by psycho boss lady, which is SO traumatic, and then this so-called therapist simply ‘jumped on’ you again. Yet once AGAIN, this therapist had her own needs, of having to be ‘superior’ to her clients, to have the ‘answer’ for ‘all their problems’. She saw you were hurting, and probably felt, even subconsciously, ‘Oh good. He is hurt and down. I’ll just get on my throne and pounce on him, to show the world how wonderful I am. That I have all the answers. That I will make him see what HE did wrong. Because other people just don’t know the answers, like I do.”
Jorobs – no matter WHAT you could have said, I don’t think it would have mattered with that idiot therapist. She had her AGENDA, and no matter what YOU really needed, its what SHE felt she HAD to do that counted.
I laughed out loud (not at you! I feel terrible for what to you then!). I laughed because here is that therapist who (supposedly) has studied about personality disorders, human behavior, and refused to see that that lady who screamed at you had VERY VERY serious psychological problems. How the heck could she have thought that YOU had any part whatsoever in what she did to you??!
I actually think it has more to do with the therapist’s own personality – she actually sounds a lot like the ‘mentor’ who sadistically yelled at you. I’ll bet that if someone ever confronted (or has confronted) that therapist re: why she would ask her clients ‘and what did YOU do to make me act this way? or say the things you are criticizing me about?”. A sick device to turn everything away from her.
Its great if you are a therapist who NEVER wants to take responsibility for what you did; probably because you think you are just too perfect to do anything wrong.
So sorry you went through this. What a waste of your time, and your emotional life.
I have a question. Just what the hell are these therapists taught in school?? Is it all theory: Freud, Jung, etc., or are they actually taught to be decent human beings, such as: ‘You do not yell at your client’. ‘YOu ask the client what they want to work on in therapy’. ‘You do not just sit there and say nothing during the therapy session’. AND what they REALLY must be taught: ‘Be totally aware of your OWN problems. Do NOT bring them to the therapy sessions; Do not be anti-Semitic or racist to your clients’. Seek your own help”. or how about just: “Be kind to your clients”. I am asking because ALL of these ‘common sense rules’ were violated many times by therapists I saw.
WHAT ARE THEY TAUGHT??? Because, unlike any other profession I know of, where the rest of us are taught what to do in our professions, from seeing so many therapists, I have no clue what they could possibly have been taught! If you know, please let me in on it.
Thanks so much for your responses – yes, resharpen, a hideous situation which the therapist took advantage of because I suspect that she too had a personality disorder and some very serious issues. She had a spiteful little fake smile and I suspect also had narcissistic/sadistic tendencies.
She certainly had a grandiose sense of self-importance. For instance when I informed her that I was stopping therapy there was no sense of concern for me, or sense of her wanting to understand what had fractured the relationship. Her response was all about her and whether she would be able to persuade me to go back. It was all game playing and she would have carried on playing games if I had let her. Ultimately, I think she was a shallow person who was not capable of deep and genuine emotional responses. I would wager a bet that her personal life was a mess and she did not have satisfactory intimate relationships.
By the way, I am a woman!! Maybe the sadistic mentor and the sadistic therapist would have responded differently to me if I had been a man…..perhaps they had mother issues or something……who knows.
Thankfully, I was emotionally robust enough to extricate myself before further harm was done. But I am sure that other people, maybe with less of a support network than I have, would have been hooked into long term therapy with her which would have further undermined any self-esteem or confidence they had.
I empathize with your experiences, GW, jorobs, resharpen, Mary, disequilibrium … The mind games that take place in the name of “therapy” are unconscionable.
While the details are different (substitute ‘trust’ and ‘promise of safety’ instead of ‘love’), the structural dynamics of these therapy interactions sound a lot like emotional rape:
Throughout history there have been practices that were widely accepted at the time — and even considered good — that then came to be seen by later generations as injustices or crimes against humanity, e.g., lobotomies, slavery, eugenics, Nazism, Native American genocide, Salem witch trials, colonization/civilization of indigenous peoples, Stalinism, Chinese foot-binding, repressed memory therapies, female genital mutilation, corporal punishment, experimentation on prisoners, gay conversion therapy, unequal rights for women and minorities, etc. I hope it’s not long before society recognizes that psychotherapy belongs on this list. The number of anecdotes about people who claim to have benefited from a practice is irrelevant in the face of dehumanizing or unethical means to that “benefit.”
Psychotherapy definitely duplicates the blog’s description of a manipulative love relationship: the client first is charmed with attention, (oerformed) affection, and promises, only to realize how coldly confined the relationship is. “I’m afraid our time is up.” Here’s another entry in that blog:
http://psychopathsandlove.com/how-can-you-tell-if-youre-being-manipulated/
There is a “resolution institute” exploring therapeutic impasse. Why do I have a vision of 100 therapists at a conference not quite able to change a light bulb?
http://www.therapyimpasse.org/Therapy_Impasse___Welcome.php
I can picture it too. A bunch of people who set up artificial patronizing relationships, then scratch their heads and puzzle over why it’s not helping.
Clients dislike them? Oh, no. It must be far more convoluted than that.
My “favorite” therapist whom I like to call Deborah Blathermouth, thought herself intuitive to the point of being psychic. From my experience she not only would have been incapable of changing a light bulb but incapable of intuiting that the light bulb needed changing as she sat analyzing the situation in the confines of a darkened room.
I’ve seen REAL psychics who did a lot more for me than many therapists.
Yes, why did we mention lightbulbs, what does the lightbulb remind us of, what are we resisting by discussing them, and are we really taking about lightbulbs,ourselves,our repressed wounding, our parents, our therapist, or feelings –we’re afraid to express. Or is this another instance of univeralizing, represented by the lightbulb, because all lightbulbs going bad eventually doesn’t apply to everything in the hardware store, which we’ll understand provided we don’t resist the exercises. With these insights, we should feel much better, and if we don’t like dark rooms, this indicates more disorders, much more therapy.
I just left a comment on a fascinating article in the NYT re: the Friedmans, a family (falsely) accused of child abuse, where a father and son were imprisoned.
My comment:
One big problem: the ‘psychologists’ who testified on behalf of the prosecution, given reign as the ‘truth finders’, even as many mental health ‘consumers’ complain that psychologists do very poor jobs. Many so-called ‘victims’ of child abuse have said they suffered the ACTUAL abuse at the hands of these people, ordering them to ‘confess’ to the terrible acts by the alleged abusers. The attorney for the alleged abuser should be able to view these interviews, even behind a one-way mirror. Justice calls for nothing less.
An excellent site is: https://disequilibrium1.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/a-disgruntled-ex-psychotherapy-client-speaks-her-piece/
Their misconduct, unfortunately, abounds, also as therapists (no matter what their degree). Many ex-therapy clients have been damaged such as: therapists who have screamed at them for no reason, been completely non-sympathetic to clients’ needs, spent entire sessions telling clients their own (therapists’) problems; were silent through sessions, or wouldn’t stop talking during sessions; were very prejudiced (one therapist angrily said anti-Semitic things about his Jewish wife; I told him I was Jewish, he said his wife was “still a jew”);
Yet, if confronted, the response is always: it is the Client who is the cause. Therapists are truly people who practice a profession with NO witnesses; appealing to people who are power-hungry, angry, narcissistic, even mentally ill.
The professional fields here MUST go through a big transformation.
Cases like that are so difficult to entangle. Child abuse certainly is a serious accusation that should be handled with utmost care. On the other hand, repressed memory therapy was yet another of the industry’s bright ideas ultimately was tossed into their large scrap heap of discredited ones.
Thanks for the notice. Too bad the comments are closed now; I would have liked to have added my two cents about how the self-serving dishonesty and manipulation rampant in the field of clinical psychology contributes to such cases and ruins lives as a result. Raising awareness is one thing we can do to help other present or future therapy victims while these horrific practices are still legal.
Some related sad stories:
http://voices.yahoo.com/false-memory-therapy-nearly-ruined-her-life-7509422.html
http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2010/09/21/in_my_lie_her_false_memories_fuel_painful_memoir/
Numerous reports charge the recovered memory “fad” for breaking apart families, ruining lives before it was mostly discredited.
A less dramatic variation of this is the therapist’s strategy to “blame and change,” to scapegoat the client’s friends, family associates as the root of problems. This “treatment” can magnify flaws of someone not even in the room and alienate the client from a real support system.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/pst/29/3/474/
Another therapy hazard is the practitioner who encourages the client’s self-definition as the delicate, wounded hot-house flower who must go through life avoiding “toxic” and “narcissistic” people and “triggers” and in order to nurture her wounded inner child. This mindset doesn’t foster social support either.
Great article: “What If A Sugar Pill Was Just As Effective As Psychotherapy?”
Well, guess what the research showed: uh, slightly better – that’s it.
Like any of us are surprised. Here is is:
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/06/26/what-if-a-sugar-pill-was-just-as-effective-as-psychotherapy/
Also here is a comment I sent them:
Thank you so much for this article. We need more good research re: the efficacy of therapy. There is a growing mental health consumer’s movement regarding experiences with therapy and therapists – in particular, those who have made their clients’ emotional lives worse. (You can google this topic – there are many blogs on it.)I want to state that there are many good therapists. However, there are also others who act unethically. The following have been just a few of my own experiences: I have had therapists who have: screamed at me; degraded me; talked only about themselves and their own problems; ordered me in a militaristic style, to ‘obey’ their commands; were racist, and/or anti-Semitic (I am Jewish, and the therapist knew this); one female therapist would lecture me re: how ‘all men’ are horrible, because her husband used to cheat on her; several bonded with me, and then manipulatively tried to ‘convince’ me that only ‘he or she ‘,can ‘save’ me; and some stayed silent through entire sessions, and when I begged them to say something told me they couldn’t, and that that was ‘my fault’.
The public is fairly aware that state boards that license this profession will discipline therapists for sleeping with their clients. However, it is almost impossible to find out whether Boards have disciplined psychotherapists for ‘other’ ethical violations, such as boundary violations, berating and/or insulting their clients, or refusing to speak to them during entire sessions (when the client asked that this be done). I have tried to find out, but in every state that I have looked, at best I have to type in a therapist’s individual name, a most time-consuming process, and almost impossible to do if you do not have the names of therapists who have been disciplined.
We must have an easier way to find this information. In addition, clients should be encouraged to file complaints for any ethical violation, and have licensing boards take them seriously.
Thanks, Resharpen, for this up-to-date information. Studies like this have been coming out for a long time. One of the first meta-analyses was published in 1983: Prioleau L., Murdock M., Brody N. An analysis of psychotherapy versus placebo studies. Behav Brain Sci 1983; 2: 275-310. The conclusion was that there is no evidence that the benefits of psychotherapy are greater than those of placebo treatment. The summary is available here:
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=6714436
An important book on the ineffectiveness of psychotherapy was: House of Cards by Robyn Dawes (1996).
More recent studies, such as the one mentioned by Resharpen, indicate that, at least for depression, some forms of psychotherapy do now work a teeny weeny bit better than placebo. One conclusion that I draw from the 1983 study is that the older generation of today’s psychotherapists trained to perform techniques known to be no better than placebo. What kind of person would choose to do that?
Best wishes.
Thanks for the links, resharpen and swissbrit46! Here’s another interesting one about the placebo effect and invalidity of psychology studies: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/09/nice-results-but-what-did-you-expect/
I’m unclear who or what decides the success of any treatment. Both the clinician and patient/client have a tremendous investment in a positive outcome and generally ill-equipped to be objective. Ask the audience at a human potential seminar–the guru works miracles. Therapists are expert at putting their clients through rituals and exercises, pumping them full of hype and hope.
It wasn’t until years later I looked back and decided what a medicine show it was.
Unless the “transformation” was concrete –someone was healed from substance abuse, a teen dropout returned to her education successful –I don’t know how anyone separates the fact from the performance.
I think that for specific issues such as addiction or certain entrenched behaviour patterns there are other more effective ways of trying to quit. Someone I know quit smoking after just a few hypnotherapy sessions. And I think that cognitive behavioural therapy could be useful in certain situations. It seems to be much more about breaking out of specific mind sets or behaviours rather than endlessly examining the ‘whys’ of the behaviour. The traditional psychotherapy role seems to give the therapist far too much power. Too much power to meddle into the person’s mind and somehow find them responsible for their narcissistic father, their alcoholic mother, their sadistic teacher or whatever other authority figure tormented them in the past.
Why not just allow the client to grieve whatever happened in the past (and I don’t think that has to take 10+ years!) and then try to come up with helpful strategies and support systems?
That would have been helpful to me. I reckon about 10 or so sessions could have unravelled the authority figure issues, tackled the specific problem that brought me to therapy and helped me find coping mechanisms and ways of tackling things in future.
But I guess that is a lot less ‘interesting’ or ‘exciting’ than seemingly scrabblling around in a person’s mind, playing devil’s advocate not to mention playing god and getting enmeshed in mental head games. Plus a lot less cheaper.
I guess it’s a lot to do with ego. Where are the therapists with humility like Carl Rodgers, for instance. He was great but how many people nowadays are really following in his footsteps?
I consider myself to have been one of the less screwed up people on the course that I did (simply by virtue of having flawed but not bad parents and a reasonably sunny disposition). And what happened to me? I got chewed up and spat out by the system. It’s funny that it’s happened twice but perhaps I am someone that doesn’t really belong in an institution :).
Jorobs, I’ve been the one to question authority or a culture more than once. I think it inevitably will be painful being the one who cries foul because galloping with the herd always is easier. You sounded centered and thoughtful as you’ve talked about what happened to you in school.
I wonder if counseling’s best purpose is for specific issues–like your understanding one’s teenager.
I DID need help, lots of help, holding my own with authority figures and in the workplace. Therapy was the WRONG direction. Therapists seem to forget the artificial environment they create. They don’t seem to realize that the compliant, acquiescent, appeasing qualities that make comprise a “good” client are poor characteristics in life.
Rereading some Richard House, he talks about revisiting the past and muses if it’s best to let sleeping dogs lie. I suspect this is true. The story I created “getting to know myself” is inevitably distorted. You don’t pay a therapist to get out your photo album and talk about good giggling childhood times. OK, my family was harsh, but I also successfully insulated myself through friends, interests and avoidance. If I lived through and got out, there’s no reason to relive how crummy some of it was, when I danced through the first time.
A wise person told me that it seemed like I was always looking for a way of modifying my behaviors. They also got angry when I told them what my worst therapist put me through. And, indeed, they were right that I was trying to stop behaviors (as well as deal with mountains of pent-up anger). The former.being something that therapist could not recognize (I think) because it would not have allowed her to delve in and analyze my psyche, even though I told her endlessly that I knew the why of my problems just not how to resolve them. Ironically, she exacerbated my anger both during and after leaving her. I joke that I need therapy to get over my therapists. For me, my past was something I didn’t get out of and that’s why I sought therapy – to deal with the emotions (have a safe place where another human being listened as I expressed what I had suppressed) and deal with unwanted behaviors and habits rooted in what angered me. We are very unique, and I can not stress how much I did need to deal and resolve my issues. Some can go on and function. I didn’t. Finally, I realized I had the ability to face and deal with those issues. I handled them like I would approach an issue as a computer programmer (which was my profession for a long time). I articulated the problems I wanted to find resolve for and broke them down into steps I could handle and approach. The behaviors are under control considerably since and I am functioning at a better level than when I first sought help. And writing about the pathos of wretched therapists helps me from finding a commode large enough to flush them down, one by one.
Just among us, we have different metaphors and approaches to problems. A correspondent above was a horse trainer. We all function in different cultures, with different unwritten rules and politics. No therapist can have insight into every world.
Very interesting article by psychic re: failure of therapy
btw – am not suggested you all see psychics. Site:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/beverly-hills-psychic-says-that-psychics-are-the-new-therapy-214655101.html
“You can talk to a therapist until you are blue in the face. And this may eventually give you all kinds of insight into your own pathology, but rarely does such insight translate into a meaningful transformation in people’s lives.”
Reminds me of the comment here:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/09/nice-results-but-what-did-you-expect/
“Are there any scientifically valid, replicated, controlled clinical trials comparing talking to a psychotherapist versus to talking to friends, volunteers, peers, pets, life coaches, motivational speakers, gurus, psychics/palm readers, cult leaders, mystics, or other vendors that promise emotional health and healing? It would be interesting to see the results of trials in which the subject does not know whether they are speaking to a licensed “professional” versus talking to an unlicensed empathetic person, and equally expected to be helped in the latter case. It would also be interesting to see trials comparing talking to a licensed psychotherapist to other active control groups, such as writing in a journal, exercising, meditating, reading self-help books, getting massages, dancing, listening to music, taking a nature walk with a companion, etc. while equally expecting to be helped in all of the control groups. (It would help to manage and equalize expectations by making it clear that the person conducting the trial is a neutral third-party, not a psychologist, so as not to bias subjects in that direction.) If it turns out that a licensed psychotherapist does no better than another scenario, then people in need (as well as tax-payers and those who pay insurance premiums) could save huge amounts of money by not wasting it on unnecessary (and often harmful) therapists, and embracing cheaper healthy alternatives instead.”
Personally, I’d put my money on friends, volunteers, pets, reading, dancing, exercising, listening to music, enjoying nature, and being kind and compassionate to our fellow humans for free.
I have friends who’ve done those discount-store human potential programs–the ones where everybody gathers in a hotel conference from for self-discovery, I also readhow one of those leaders actually guided followers to their deaths in the book Tragedy in Sedona. People who take and repeat those courses invariably BELIEVE, just like clients swear by their wonderful the therapists. The conviction offers me no evidence except much wishful thinking. Here’s an article “Why Bogus Therapies Seem to Work.”
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
(Longer version if you’re inclined to read more)
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work/
Thanks for sharing those two articles. I especially appreciate Beyerstein’s mentioning the ethics of accepting money for bogus therapies under false pretenses:
“To distinguish causal from fortuitous improvements that might follow any intervention, a set of objective procedures has evolved for testing putative remedies. Unless a technique, ritual, drug, or surgical procedure can meet these requirements, it is ethically questionable to offer it to the public, especially if money is to change hands.”
I’ve added these links to my list:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/09/nice-results-but-what-did-you-expect/
http://pps.sagepub.com/content/8/4/445.full
http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2013/06/25/is-psychotherapy-for-depression-any-better-than-a-sugar-pill/
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work/
Thanks, again!
A somewhat relevant article was published in the NY Times today: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/how-faith-can-affect-therapy/#postComment
disequilibrium1 and anon
Thanks for those links. The thing I find interesting is the many correlations between faith and therapy. Much of therapy was derived from spiritual practices but secularized (the therapist became the Deity). I also find it interesting because I have known people who have replaced normal religious activities with many things labelled “therapy”, but just as I have seen this I also have seen others use their religion like some use therapy and/or drugs. Once the high wore off, though, they lost whatever “faith” they may have had. I am a person of faith, and that probably has helped me through many trying times (including bad therapy). Nonetheless, too many people follow something or someone just like they might pop pills. In the end it’s just another form of medicating rather than learning to cope and function in spite of the challenges we face.
WIlliam Epstein, also author of The Illusion of Psychotherapy, has a book titled Psychotherapy as Religion, but upon scan appears a more about general debunking rather than therapy’s replacement of faith.
I definitely see the parallels and metaphors–the demand of belief, the ritual, and the submission to a higher power–the therapist.
This looks promising. Another UK therapist. It was listed on David Smail’s site. (I receive no compensation from Amazon, or anyone else)
Thanks for the book recommendation. The more one studies the therapy industry, the more clear it is that it rests on a fraudulent foundation that remains unsupported by valid scientific evidence to this day.
http://blog.dansimons.com/2013/07/pop-quiz-what-can-we-learn-from.html
How does anyone measure the quality of a human life?
Yes, I think it can be a very good idea to let sleeping dogs lie. One of the participants on the course that I did had been badly abused as a child and still 30 + years later labelled himself as ‘abused’. That is just so sad. 15 years of therapy and still being defined by having had the misfortune to have had crap parents.
And some parents ARE crap. They may not have been deliberately malicious (although I suppose some are) but the ones that abuse their children are going to cause harm. Even if you are not abused you are likely to suffer if your parents objectified you/humiliated you/set unrealistic goals/refused to allow you to be your own unique person.
Which I think is the main reason why there is such a lucrative therapy industry.
The therapist could say: ‘yes, it sounds like your parents were pretty crap. Let’s find ways of helping you put that in to perspective and realize that their behaviour was not about you, but all about them.’
But on the course I did, and the therapist I saw, did the opposite. So it was a case of: ‘what did you do to make this happen.’
This is entirely reprehensible but I think it happens all the time. It is a nifty psychological device to tie people into long term therapy. People who have had abusive upbringings will often have had their parents’ projections heaped upon them. So they simply do not have a clear picture of what has happened or who they really are, believing they are deeply flawed human beings who happened to be the victim of very poor parenting. (And, yes, I get that there comes a time when you have to stop labelling yourself ‘victim’ and get on with it……but before you can do that you need a third party to shed light on what has happened…)
The therapist can play into this weak sense of self, thereby compounding the situation. The therapist I saw did just that. Now I think about it she elicited some quite important information relatively early on about how robust my support systems were. I reckon she wanted to see how far she could push me and get away with it. To what degree she could manipulate me, confuse me and generally play head games with me.
The course tutors were also masters at psychological manipulation and games. Now I look back on it, i can see that they were extremely emotionally immature and dysfunctional.
What a load of old rubbish it all was! So glad to be out of it.
The only reason I didn’t make a formal complaint is because I knew that the system would be rigged from beginning to end and that I would be further undermined by their strenuous efforts to defend their ‘reputations’. I think they would have loved a good old fight and would have gained considerable pleasure from making me jump through higher and higher hoops.
I decided to deny them that pleasure, or that level of power over me. Best let them get on with their silly little playground games…..
Jorobs, you summarize my perspective. No one has a perfect childhood and some of us had pretty bad parents. While living through it, I created all sorts of distractions to escape, tune out and find other happiness.
So once having emerged from childhood captivity, there was absolutely no point in reliving, rewriting it as more painful than it really was. Or worse yet, extending helpless childhood for another few decades.
The only valid take-away I see from the revisit is that I grew up in a distorted world and I carry responses to those distortions. Then again, all families, groups, and human gatherings have their own values and lenses that don’t necessarily comport with consensus beyond their doors. It’s useful to understand that perspective in deciding whether to hold ’em or fold ’em.
Congratulations for getting out. Hope you’re doing well post-school. 🙂
Yes, congratulations on making it out of the therapy industry. I wonder what it feels like for therapists later in life when/if they discover that they devoted their lives to an unscientific, unjustified practice that often hurts people and makes their problems worse. Perhaps like participants in these practices? http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/human-biology/medical-quackery.htm#page=10
Anon, there are account of therapists’ conversions to skepticism, most notably Jeffrey Masson’s kiss-off, Final Analysis.Another book, Raubolt’s Power Games: Influence, Persuasion, and Indoctrination in Psychotherapy Training is a testimonial to destructive training.
If therapists are can be lousy mentors, that says something about how “therapized” they really are.
I just linked to http://debunkingprimaltherapy.com/ below, a blog by an advanced student who disavowed training.
Tana Dineen is another former therapist who later realized how harmful the practice is. She describes her book, Manufacturing Victims, as “her apology for having practiced as a clinical psychologist for several decades.”
http://tanadineen.com/MEDIA/Guardian.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2171864.Manufacturing_Victims
http://www.tanadineen.com/critic/columns/TherapyAbuse-VS.htm
Tana Dineen is another former therapist who left after realizing the harm therapy causes. She describes her book, Manufacturing Victims, as “her apology for having practiced as a clinical psychologist for several decades.”
http://tanadineen.com/MEDIA/Guardian.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2171864.Manufacturing_Victims
I very much enjoyed Tana Dineen’s writings. She offers a wealth of materials and food for thought free on net. She, along with Jeffrey Masson, is one of the few writers I know who cross the professional-consumer divide to deconstruct issues in the mental health. It’s lamentable their books didn’t make their deserved impact excepting to galvanize the profession against them.
One book “faded away” book I really like is Dorothy Tennov’s 1975 “Psychotherapy: the Hazardous Cure.” Though written against the backdrop of emerging 1970s feminism, I found it still fresh and relevant, probably for both genders.
Thanks for your positive response! It has taken a long time for me to gain some perspective on it all. Unfortunately, in all walks of life, a bit of power can corrupt. Now, that might be the power that parents have over their children, the power that teachers have over their pupils. The power an employer has. The power a spouse has. The power that an authority figure has. I always find it appalling when someone abuses their power in ways that are malicious. But it happens all the time. I think one of the most valuable lessons we could teach children is to value personal qualities like integrity. I’m not saying everyone has to go around like saints but if a person wants the status that goes with a professional or authority position, then with that status and power comes responsibility. A responsibility to use that power over other people in a professional behaviour.
But unfortunately, there is a minority of people who are attracted to positions of power for the wrong reasons. They want to dominate, control, undermine, abuse and so on. And the higher up the pole you are, the more you can get away with without being scrutinized. That is, thankfully, changing as a bright light is being shone into dark corners. But a corruption of power seems to be particularly prevalent in areas where integrity is MOST needed. And also in professions, industries that have been self-regulating. The legal and medical professions for instance although they are now subject to much more scrutiny, at least in the UK. The police force is another area where those high up can and do get away with appalling corruption and, rather than be subject to the law as us common mortals would be, they get themselves pentioned off on full pay, courtesy of the tax payer. Politicians do not exactly have a reputation for squeaky cleanness..
And then we have therapists. Again, the regulatory bodies are not exactly robust. Well, not if my experiences are anything to go by. The course providers and the therapists are supposed to be governed by codes of ethics, but I saw little evidence of this on the course I did. If you read the code of ethics which the course providers, and the practicing therapist I saw, put after their names, you might be inclined to believe that they would feel compelled to be behaving in the professional way that they were supposed to be behaving.
Sadly, the code of ethics was little more than fancy sentiments on a few pieces of paper. Students were subject to victimization, verbal abuse in some cases and other forms of psychological warfare. Divide and rule was a depressingly familiar strategy.
At least now I can spot this type of behaviour and as you say all families, groups and organisations have their own values and often unwritten codes.
What I found so appalling about the course leaders is that they were privy to sensitive personal information which they then proceeded to use as a weapon against me. As a way of trying to keep me in a ‘victim’ or underdog mode. As a way of keeping their power base. I’m not shocked that easily but I have to say it shocked me that they would stoop so low. I would describe it as verging on sadistic or at the very least evidence of a personality disorder – psychopath for instance. On reflection, they lacked empathy, presumably because of their own highly disordered childhood experiences. And the therapist I saw lacked empathy too.
Jorobs, decades later, I still go on circles reflecting of the many permutations of my experience and how much I disagree with the theories that drives therapy.
My initial damage is being pulled into a non-critical complacency that my therapists would take care of me like an ideal parent figure. Settling into a hired emotional womb only reinforced my most childish aspects.
As I younger women, I was more “childish” than average, a habitually low person on the totem pole always deferring to stronger personalities. But I’ve observed this trait to some extent in most people, be it workplaces, classes, groups or…celebrity worship. My therapy strongly reinforced the larger-than-life dynamic, which contradicted my sense of equal participation and competence.
So yes, I now see my therapists ranging from deluded to sadistic. But the system’s roots are far deeper for me.
I also believe that social hierarchy plays an important role in our happiness. This is something completely beyond our therapists’ manipulation. Even if by some miracle, therapists were able to render us more “actualized” specimens, we continue to dwell in the world we create. To have therapists slightly imply their services will deliver happier, richer lives is deception.
Yes, interesting observations – I guess that therapists are selling a product no more or less than anyone else. If the goal of business is to maximize profit then therapists are not going to want to ‘fix’ their clients too quickly. Especially if they are compliant clients who are not being a pain in the arse…..
But,. you know what, I think a therapist could be brilliant if they just listened, completely non-judgmentally, maybe occasionally intercepting with a slight nudge, or aside or observation. A lot of people are incredibly self-critical (especially if they had critical, judgmental parents) so the last thing they need is someone else wading in with criticism when they have already done the job themselves. And so has everyone else around them.
There was a link I gave up thread – I can find it again – someone who specializes in meditation. Someone quite enlightened. On his website he wrote about clients coming to him with deep rooted problems. He ended up allowing them to talk – for an hour, two hours. He just let them talk without interrupting. And, in the end, they would work out what it was they wanted. Why they were so dissatisfied with their jobs/relationships, whatever it was.
That is so powerful – just to listen, actively, and find out what someone is really trying to say without imposing one’s own agenda.
So, thank you for providing this blog. It has as helped me a lot in my journey ….given me a voice……and, it seems, many others.
So – well done!!
As I think about it, perhaps we each have our own “ideal” counselor. Mine would have been someone who regarded me as an equal, who recognized my competence and been a sounding board for I might explore to explore life and relationships. My meanderings in therapy didn’t touch on anything practical.
I somehow doubt my anxiousness –generalized anxiety order they probably label it–would have been diminished through therapy. Growing up and older was needed.
As I stated above, I originally partnered well with being the poor dear (or poor deer), but think that very damaging in retrospect.
I very much appreciate the conversation with you and the other respondents here. It helps me plumb a very layered and confusing event.
jorobs – I so heartily agree with what you say regarding someone listening and providing occasional insight. That’s what I expected from therapy but got a person (that I trusted, foolishly, in my vulnerability) who didn’t understand listening and allowing the patient to come to self-revelation about their problems. Instead, I got a shaman-wannabe with a bag of dime-store magic tricks who couldn’t perform her wondrous therapeutic-acts because I just needed the space and time to speak, be heard, and examine my words. Once I got it through my head that I was my own best listener and guide, I started seeing results from my dysfunctions. Psychology is a valid discipline of study, therapy in theory is great but in all practicality isn’t so helpful. It is a business and all business people who want to stay in the game know they have to maximize profit. That means keeping patients for as long as possible!!! Mental and emotional problems are just another commodity. With that said, what I see as being really problematic beyond all this is that therapists are frail, finite beings like the rest of us. In addition to their own problems they are perfectly capable of failure. That, too many times, means the patient pays a steep cost.
Jorobs, you write: “I think a therapist could be brilliant if they just listened, completely non-judgmentally, maybe occasionally intercepting with a slight nudge, or aside or observation.”
Isn’t that Carl Rogers’ basic idea that launched the whole counselling movement in the 1940s? This nondirective therapy was the most popular approach in the 1960s and 1970s. Later, therapists started to combine directive and nondirective approaches, and the result was mainly directive. The therapist who hurt me said at the beginning that he adopted the Rogerian approach, but he was in fact very authoritarian and directive, and didn’t know how to listen. Later on he said he was a behaviourist.
The few moments of insight I received were on this basis. The therapist gently asked me a question about something I said, leading me to start to understand its irrationality. It was very gentle and respectful, and gave me a tool to use myself.
Well, I think you have provided a very valuable and insightful resource.. I have gained so much through reading your blog, and responding. I notice a tendency for self-deprication (yes, I do it too) but I think that is entirely unfounded.
But I agree about the confusing and layered stuff…..yes, it is…..or at least it can be…..
But, my thoughts these days is to let the lunatics take care of the asylum…and I mean that in a well intentioned way….
I agree the shaman-schtick pre-empts clients listening to their own wisdoms. “My therapist says…what doesn’t my therapist think,” shouldn’t be the objective.
I have gotten insights from books. Long ago, I enjoyed reading how Karen Horney analyzed the personality, and I thought the Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists offered me more patience and compassion toward other people’s hurtful behavior.
Yes, self-deprecation has long been part of my personality, though folds nicely into other writing I do. I’ve been careful to be present ideas here as my personal viewpoint, respecting that we’re each searching for some difficult truths.
Though none of us have mentioned Primal Therapy, this blog certainly has relevance to many other therapy fads and fancies And though this therapy has lost prominence since the 1970s, the website explains its theories still influence clinicians.
http://debunkingprimaltherapy.com/
I think we all need different things. I still remember three different therapists, who would sit through entire sessions not saying a word. Perhaps if a therapist is silent except for an occasional important comment that would be good – I don’t know. All I know is that I screamed at one to ‘say something’ (a couples counselor) and she said that we ‘had so many difficult problems’ – that was her excuse for not speaking. I told her in my next life I want to come back as a therapist, sit in a corner, say nothing and get paid to do that. Just like her.
Resharpen, I’m confident you’re right in that likely each of us has an image of our guide or mentor, and many of us have paired with different mentors in our lives. Some of us need a place to contemplate. I needed to grow up and be less intimidated by perceived authority.
Therapists can’t possibly know who or what the mentor is, nor can they produce that personae.
The therapist who caused the most damage for me decided I needed a “good” mother experience. My mother was not perfect, and I certainly had issues around my relationship with her but the last thing I needed was another mother. Especially one who charged 120.00 an hour. It’s good to have others to talk to. It think it’s helpful. Nonetheless, the more we examine our own issues (if we are honest with at least ourselves) the better off we are and psychotherapists can sit there and listen to the sound of silence as they contemplate how to make a living without patients.
I believe that maturation is shedding our reliance on parents and their accompanying control. So substituting one parental figure for another hinders this important emergence.
I believe how we internalize our parents affects how we conduct ourselves within social hierarchies. Being the forever child is a magnet for poor treatment and consequential unhappiness.
Like you, my mother was far from perfect. But my parents were real as opposed to a role, assured that I was fed, clothed and educated, and never said “I’m afraid our time is up” at the end of the hour.
Yes, we all need different kinds of relationships, and therapists are no substitute for them. The manipulative tactics therapists use to try to position themselves in this way can cause a great deal of harm to one’s real/unpaid relationships that matter. For example, what kind of friendship does one have if one feels one cannot express one’s true thoughts and feelings to them, and keeps those conversations limited to surface pleasantries while sharing one’s true thoughts and feelings with a paid therapist? One is left with two artificial relationships — one limited to pleasant superficialities and one limited to paid 45-minute sessions. Both are fake and unsatisfying. Imagine in contrast that one cultivates a real friendship with *mutual* trust in which one can share one’s true thoughts and feelings? I think the world would be a better place if we could get rid of all the therapists and create a culture that fosters genuine (unpaid) connection.
Sometimes it is very difficult to talk to those you’re closest to. Sometimes there is no one you can honestly talk to. I lost three relatives, and several beloved pets within a matter of months. Six years later another relative took his life. What I was looking for in therapy was not a mentor or a relationship. I was highly non-functional and I was angry. I wanted out of those two situations and wanted to go on with my life as healthfully as possible. What I got was a dysfunctional relationship with a delusional person. On the positive side it was an hour where I could talk – but it was a social hour at best. At worst, it was every inner demon I was struggling against incarnated in my addle-pated therapist. So, it wasn’t convenient to move from one therapist to the next. I was struggling to keep the best paying job I ever had (working 60-90 hour weeks), and was desperate for help. It took me a long time to realize that it was not happening (the help I desired), nor would it. I agree. We need to see an end to the human-era where psychotherapy has had its dominion. We need community, and compassion. Hopefully in 100 years psychotherapy will be shunned like the snake-oil that most of it is.
My therapy relationship was bad on several levels. Because it was such a performance, no mere human could measure up to the performed empathy and feigned understanding I thought I was receiving. And of course, I was the inferior in the relationship.
Worse yet, was the all-consuming project of feeling that I was “under construction” that seeped into my real life relationships. At the worst of it, I was so introspective that I had what’s called a “spiritual emergence,” I where everything was heightened, and I was very weird with my friends. I’ve lost friends as the result of the crazy state therapy left me in.
Therapy created an artificial crisis in my case.
Oh gosh. Got into a real s*** slinging contest on Amazon, on comments of a review of Szasz’s book: “The Myth of Psychotherapy”. One reviewer, who hates Szasz, wrote: “Psychotherapy has posed an enormous threat to people who don’t want their ego-compensations exposed. The power of the backlash against the discoveries of Freud should not be underestimated, and this would account for the enormous market for the works of Thomas Szasz, which are just pure anti-psych propaganda.” This guy then went on and on, a psychotherapy ‘snob’ just accusing all who disagreed with him: “I succeeded at psychotherapy.
I have just been introduced to the word “troll,” which means people on the Internet who are just trying to get other people angry. Is this person a “troll?” Or rather, as I suspect, somebody using extreme defensive measures to avoid therapy at all costs, as Szasz did.
Finally, I wrote a comment: “Excuse me, but you are far too self-absorbed. I am thrilled that you had a positive experience with therapy. BUT THAT IS ONLY YOUR EXPERIENCE. Many of the rest of us had horrific experiences. You are asking “Who do I hate, and why do I hate them?” Interesting. So many of the awful therapists I saw were the angriest people I have ever known. You should direct this question to THEM. No, therapy is NOT a beginning ‘towards sanity’ if you walk out of a therapist’s office feeling far worse than when you walked in. If the therapist sits there, cold as ice, treating you like a ‘little inferior”. If they scream at you throughout the session, making you feel like s**t. If they are anti-Semitic, man-haters, or racists. As I have mentioned, there is a growing movement of us who have been consumers of mental health services that will be shaking things up.”
And the man’s response: “Those of us who have successfully completed psychotherapy recognize material like this as defensive – an attack on psychotherapy because of the threat it represents to one’s ego-defenses. One of the reasons I succeeded in psychotherapy was because for 13 years of my life I concentrated on HOW I WAS AT FAULT in every situation. So, it is your fault if you go to a bad therapist. And if you go to 3 or more therapists, all highly recommended, and they are all bad, then maybe you need to question your own judgement. Maybe you ARE MAKING THEM BAD in your mind, to be able to says that all therapists are bad. Defense mechanisms work deeper than you are conscious of them. This is all very subtle, and you have to reach deeply to get around your own defenses.”
What a Jerk!!! Part of my response: “I completely disagree with you as to ‘it is YOUR fault if you go to a bad therapist’. Not true. You are blaming me for something I have not done. But I would just sit down, tell a therapist something calmly, and some of the therapists were fine, and treated me decently. “However, the others? If I merely tell them my problem(s), and she screams at me, ignores me, refuses to say anything for an entire session, or says ‘well, that is because you are having a problem with a boyfriend, and men are all awful”. Any of those situations, which did happen btw, were NOT my fault. ”
Well, I had to let loose on him. He reminds me SO MUCH of the therapists who turn everything around when we complain about them, telling some of us “this is really YOUR fault”. Either, we didn’t ‘hear’ what the therapist said correctly; or our own ANGER is talking, instead of what ‘really’ happened; etc., etc. I bet this jerk I responded to is a therapist himself!
Resharpen,I’m not sure what a successful therapy graduate might like like, but I’m pretty certainly he would have overcome being self-righteous and condescending. When I read all that acrimony, that guy certainly fails to make the case for treatment.
In my other article one of my items was “a cult-like change in values.” The angry defenders impress me as downright cult-like, or comparable to the religious fanatic who finds his religion superior to all others.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_index.php?idx=119&d=1&w=482&e=43065
If you track back on that commenter, he’s a self-styled philosopher with a couple of unsuccessful self-published books.
Insightful observation about what a successful therapy graduate might look like, disequilibrium1.
Perhaps some of the reasons for this man’s ardent devotion are expressed in the quackery links you sent awhile back:
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work/
“Psychological needs can distort what people perceive and do. Even when no objective improvement occurs, people with a strong psychological investment in “alternative medicine” [psychotherapy] can convince themselves they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when experiences contradict existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. People tend to alleviate this discord by reinterpreting (distorting) the offending information. If no relief occurs after committing time, money, and “face” to an alternate course of treatment (and perhaps to the worldview of which it is a part), internal disharmony can result. Rather than admit to themselves or to others that their efforts have been a waste, many people find some redeeming value in the treatment. Core beliefs tend to be vigorously defended by warping perception and memory. Fringe practitioners and their clients are prone to misinterpret cues and remember things as they wish they had happened. They may be selective in what they recall, overestimating their apparent successes while ignoring, downplaying, or explaining away their failures. The scientific method evolved in large part to reduce the impact of this human penchant for jumping to congenial conclusions. In addition, people normally feel obligated to reciprocate when someone does them a good turn. Since most “alternative” therapists sincerely believe they are helping, it is only natural that patients would want to please them in return. Without patients necessarily realizing it, such obligations are sufficient to inflate their perception of how much benefit they have received.”
As for any legitimate evidence, I think the last couple sentence of this post sum up the state of affairs quite well:
http://blog.dansimons.com/2013/07/pop-quiz-what-can-we-learn-from.html
“Almost no psychology interventions even fall into that lower-right box, but almost all of them make causal claims anyway. That needs to stop.”
I’m guilty of once believing that therapy achieved some magic cure. It pumped me with hope and sent me on a self-indulgent voyage of self “understanding.”
But when I examined the most destructive therapy I began a critical look at my “kinder” therapists. No therapy was a turning point, none helped how I related to the world. In fact I alienated dear friends because of the delusions I was experienced. Not unlike that guy on Amazon, I was a legend in my own mind.
Resharpen – good for you for standing your ground with such an arrogant (you choose the word). I am so tired of all of this garbage about taking the responsibility for everything. I do accept responsibility for what I am responsible for, but to blame what sounds like emotional abuse on anyone but the perpetrator-therapist goes to show the lack of ethics in the con game we call psychotherapy.
Thank you all for your support! I don’t know about you guys, but I am no longer “in the closet” regarding my horrific experiences. It is great to be able to share what I have suffered, plus my experiences in ‘fighting’ the typical response that you hear that if someone relates a problem, someone else tells them: ‘oh, you have a problem? GO TO A THERAPIST. ‘ My God! it is about time that, instead, we give people OTHER options. Like saying – call me, and I’ll listen. Or there is a support group you can go to ?(if we feel this might help). I, myself, have offered books to people that have helped me immensely with problems similar to theirs.
Another experience I had some months ago: I had been going to a meetup group lead by 2 life coaches. The group was very supportive, and helped me a lot. Anyway, I was telling this to someone who said “LIFE COACHES??” ha ha ha – “what training do they have”??? he said snidely. Turns out his mom was a psychologist-therapist. I told him “I’m sure you’re Mom is probably very good at her job. But many therapists are terrible, and do more harm than good. What training do therapists get? What course did they take re: screaming at a client? or sitting there silently throughout an entire therapy session when the client is begging them to talk?or ‘commanding’ a client to ‘obey their orders’, like a superior in an army??” He said nothing; admitted to me he had never been in therapy, but just kept repeating “and so what training do these ‘life coaches’ have?” I just repeated the same responses to him as well. Have had enough of this – feels SO much better ‘coming out of the closet’.
I’ve set off some firestorms discussing my therapy “agnosticism” in real life. Otherwise sane friends were more reverent about therapy than religion, reacting like obedient cult members trying to herd me back to the flock. Something is very wrong if that phrase “god-fearing” now applies to psychotherapy.
Psychotherapy has, indeed, become (decades ago) the religion of secular society. The therapist, if not Deity, is at the very least the priest or the guru.
The last therapist I went to impressed me in one way though. In spite of other faults he firmly believed that therapy was not a life-long deal. You came to see him for a reason, you charted out what you wanted out of the therapist, you assessed your progress, and one day – you said goodbye to your therapist and moved on w/o him. So, that I do feel is a sign of a good therapist.
I do see though how so many people get so entangled in all the myth, and how therapy can either inflate the ego and/or deflate it gravely. It made me maniacal, in that everything I said was misinterpreted and the rage I came to resolve became an out-of-control monster. But I learned from that experience, and have resolved a great deal of my issues. Still a work in progress, but no thanks to psychotherapy. Our voices need to be heard and we need to engage society. As with all things, that is a long process. My hope is that future generations will look back upon our age and grimace at our “therapy folly”.
diseq: You are SO right! Many have said that therapy is our current culture’s ‘religion’ and that is beyond belief! As with religion, I tell people that it’s a personal choice, and if you have found a good therapist, I am happy for you. I know there are good therapists out there, I have had a few, and am NOT disputing that. BUT IT IS NOT FOR ME anymore- AND THAT I speak from great experience. I also tell them because of blogs like these, and my talks with others, there is a great problem with therapists. And, no , I ‘don’t know the numbers of bad ones’, but I don’t care. If people are gravely harmed, and there ARE a good number of therapists who are terrible at their jobs, THAT is what I care about. I also say: as a Lawyer (which I am) if I do something unethical to a client, my license could easily be disciplined, AND IT SHOULD BE. Then WHY doesn’t the same happen to therapists who say and do unethical things? I tell people, I know from a prior job AND research, that unless a therapist sleeps with a client – THEY ARE NOT DISCIPLINED. And this stinks – this is harming the public, no two ways about it.
Things MUST change.
There seems almost an edict in our culture that we all must be striving for some undefined sanctification that we only achieve through a therapist’s anointment. If we reject this, somehow we’re repudiating self-knowledge and growth–a notion that my “fired” therapist angrily employed. There is so much irrational imperative around the therapy.
It’s eye opening that so many therapists refuse to consider the topics we raise. “Oh, she had a bad experience.” My late father was an attorney, I’ve had many dealings with his partners, and they all take their services very seriously.
Hi! I came across a couple of TED talks that may be of interest:
This one talks about iatrogenic illness, and has an interesting discussion following it:
And this one is inspiring for all of us who aspire to have the courage to speak out about the harms caused by the psychotherapy industry:
I’ve linked to this blog previously. It’s nice to see a skeptic within the profession. This is a of series of posts about therapist personality types.\
http://psychgripe.blogspot.de/search/label/therapist%20typology
I liked the article you cited, except for the ‘therapist personality type’ called ‘The Miracle Worker’. I have known many people who HAVE been helped by these service providers, including those helped by EMDR (Eye Movement) therapy, past life regression, and ‘tapping’. I have never seen those who provide ONLY these services label themselves as ‘therapists’ (altho there are plenty of therapists who use these modalities on their clients).
In my experience, these people are NOTHING like the awful therapists I have seen. They do not promise their modality will work, but explain what it is, and then do it. I have never had any of them scream at me, dictate the ‘truth’ about life, tell me their problems, make racist comments, etc. etc. It is more akin to going to a good chiropractor and getting an ‘adjustment’, etc.
There is more and more evidence that the mind and body are ‘one’, and that trauma is not only in our minds, but also stored in our bodies; that the latter needs attention as well so that a client can feel better, and perhaps heal.
I know that this is not everyone’s cup of tea. However, the blanket negation given by the author was not deserved imo.
More power to providing a treatment that helps someone. I think as long as providers make clear that mileage may very and don’t encourage dependency. I’ve done many physical modes for a neuro-muscular disorder from Shiatsu to Alexander Technique, and found many of them calming without the the emotional entanglement of therapy. I think the dependency hook often is in promising or over-promising “healing,” whatever that is.
As to EMDR. No offense to anyone who wants to try it or feel it helped them. I can see where it might work for some people in certain situations, but my therapist did use it – pushed it on me – and did get mad when I said it wasn’t doing anything just as she did when I said I had a dream but didn’t recall the details. As to tapping, that seemed to have a calming effect as another therapist persuaded me to try it until I saw him nervously using it to relieve his anxiety during my session. That simply unnerved me.
Agree. People should have a right to spend their time and money on whatever quackery/therapy they want, or to sell whatever quackery/therapy they want — as long as they’re 100% honest about the nature of the evidence for their offerings (or lack thereof), the efficacy rates, safety, side-effects, mechanism of action, etc., and not manipulating and robbing people by calling them “treatments” or “healthcare” when they have nothing but anecdotal or improperly controlled “evidence” for treating anything.
http://blog.dansimons.com/2013/07/pop-quiz-what-can-we-learn-from.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work/
I did an admittedly shallow survey of EFT, Emotional Freedom Technique tapping, based on what the internet offered.
My personal problem is that the set up phrases, at least as I read them, brought me into negative images. “Even though I (___some failing___) I (___positive self-love mantra____).”
I often feel visualizations very deeply, and visiting my shortcoming was utterly demoralizing! Tapping maybe made it worse.
Beyond the negative visualization, the technique is so generic. For instance, if one is afraid of making a speech, there are specific techniques speakers use to prepare, etc.
I then researched “feel worse” + EFT. Practitioners offered the usual unfounded speculation, but no one said that the technique focuses on failings.
I’m being admittedly shallow. But this is how I saw EFT. Clearly it helps some of the people some of the time.
This has several links around psychology and pseudoscience. I found “Why Bad Beliefs Don’t Die” particularly relevant to me, and maybe why unraveling my perception of therapists was so fundamentally painful. Another link “The Forer Effect” is about more about fortune tellers and mediums, but also can apply to some therapists.
http://www.psychology.org/links/Resources/Pseudoscience/
Thanks for the links! The “Why Bad Beliefs Don’t Die” article can perhaps help to explain the type of “willful blindness” that Heffernan discusses, and that takes place when people turn a blind eye to the dehumanization and harm caused by the psychotherapy industry and to the lack of valid research to justify it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/margaret-heffernan-/jimmy-savile-epidemic-of-wilful-blindness_b_2044966.html
http://pps.sagepub.com/content/8/4/445.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408478/
http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2013/06/25/is-psychotherapy-for-depression-any-better-than-a-sugar-pill/
Anon, thank you for the links. Locally, I’ve seen how practitioners respond to my assertion that they can be so blinded by theory that they’re oblivious to harmful therapeutic interactions on an everyday social level. They cherry-pick one thing I’ve said and argue, or discredit me as disgruntled or non-academic, or coo and condescend to me “ohhh, sorrrry you had a baaaad experience,” etc.
I’m left with the strong impression that therapists only acknowledge “evidence” that substantiates their already-held beliefs.
Thanks for the links. The last one (is-psychotherapy-for-depression …) is one of the most reasoned discussions I’ve seen. Wish there were more like that. This guy has a good sense of how it’s complex and one size does not fit all — something I wish more therapists had.
I’ve encountered people who claim that therapy is a good thing based on the anecdotes of people who claim to be helped by it without satisfactorily accounting for the people who claim to be harmed by it. A possible response posted below; I’d love to hear your thoughts.
http://whereistheburdenofproof.wordpress.com/
The burden of proof lies with she who asserts a positive.
One cannot prove the null hypothesis.
With people, the null hypothesis is that we’re innocent. Therefore, people are innocent until proven guilty.
With interventions/therapies/treatments/medicines/surgeries, the null hypothesis is that they’re ineffective and/or unsafe. Therefore, interventions/therapies/treatments/medicines/surgeries are ineffective and/or unsafe until proven effective and/or safe.
For people, that’s why we have a right to a trial before being legally punished.
For interventions/therapies/treatments/medicines/surgeries, that’s why we have scientific randomized controlled clinical trials (which have to be carefully designed, replicable, and use proper active control groups that control for differing expectations, etc.).
In law, anecdotal “evidence” is inadmissible as it is not reliable enough to carry the weight needed to overcome the null hypothesis of innocence and to prove a person guilty.
In science and healthcare, anecdotal “evidence” is similarly inadmissible as it does not meet the experimental standards required to overcome the null hypothesis of ineffective and/or unsafe and to show that an intervention/therapy/treatment/medicine/surgery is effective and/or safe.
Interventions/therapies/treatments/medicines/surgeries that don’t meet these scientific standards should not be tried out on the public without prior transparent disclosures of their experimental, unsubstantiated, and potentially harmful nature. And, in the unfortunate event that this condition is not met, as soon as we hear of cases/anecdotes in which someone may be harmed, we have a further and more urgent reason to pull the intervention/therapy/treatment/medicine/surgery off the market. In the absence of properly controlled rigorous scientific evidence in favor of an intervention/therapy/treatment/medicine/surgery, there is insufficient justification to press on with it. If there are anecdotes claiming that such an intervention/therapy/treatment/medicine/surgery is harmful, then they ought to be heeded — there are human beings getting hurt, and there’s insufficient valid scientific evidence to justify it. It’s not okay for us to just look the other way.
In a nutshell, the null hypothesis is the default condition, and anecdotes/testimonials are not sufficient to overcome it. Rather, we need legal or properly controlled scientific trials to show that a person is guilty or that a therapy is effective and/or safe. In the absence of this legally or scientifically admissible evidence, punishing a person or providing an therapy is unjustified, potentially harmful, and ought to be discontinued (or transparently acknowledged to be a risky endeavor).
Anon, I agree. The entire therapeutic tradition was fabricated on a foundation of speculation and whimsy. Treatment fads blaze, then fall into ignominy while the psychodynamic tribe shoots at the cognitive tribe who shoots at the SSRI tribe.
Assuming therapy isn’t going away, consumers at least should be informed that this is theory, not real medicine.
Pete Attkins’s comment here about the pseudoscientific nature of clinical psychology is also relevant:
Good post. I’m glad to see someone discussing this stuff. The attacking responder used the typical ad hominem strategy, and I’m glad she received her comeuppance there.
The victim-blaming approach is nowhere better illustrated than in Gestalt therapy as formulated by Fritz Perls and demonstrated in his Gloria tapes which are still used as an example of therapy for training purposes today.
There are also some video clips up thread where a therapist (Zimmer I think it is) demonstrates a guru-type approach (not to mention misogynistic) to therapy training with his students.
In actual fact, Perls contaminated the rather beautiful concept of Gestalt which has an admirable philosophical history and has wide and useful applications today in all sorts of fields.
He seized the Gestalt label and applied it to psychotherapy. Unfortunately, he failed to apply one of the foundations of the concept – that the whole is more than the sum of the parts – to his Gestalt therapy. Instead, under the pretense of ‘helping’ his clients, he actually abused them.
In his hands, so-called ‘gestalt therapy’ was a form of controlling, teasing, provoking, victimizing and objectifying his clients. He really was a nasty person. But I suppose in the context of the 60s, where rigid societal mores were being challenged, he could get away with it and be seen as a ‘guru’. I would suggest he had some serious unresolved psychological issues – and abused his role as a therapist to project his own stuff on other people and generally play mind games.
His tactics were similar to those used by many cults that were proliferating around the 60s and 70s under the banner of the human consciousness movement. And the tactics are still used today in fields where power is used to control, manipulate and undermine.
If you watch his critique of the Gloria ‘therapy’ session you will see that there is a complete disparity between what he purports to do and what he actually does. It’s strange how he became such an important figure in the therapy industry but I think that is partially explained – as already noted, by the context of the 60s. And maybe the cult of the ‘guru’ and ‘expert’.
But, to return to the topic of defensive strategies adopted by those whose methods are being criticized, ad hominem attack is the time-honoured strategy adopted by the pseudo-scientific brigade to silence and undermine those who question the status quo. Especially where there are sacred cows. To challenge these sacred cows is to challenge the gatekeepers of power and authority. You see it in the health industry quite a bit, both mental and physical health.
Those who have dared to put their heads above the parapet are not infrequently ridiculed, undermined and, sometimes, destroyed. That sounds a bit dramatic but look back in history and you will see this happening again and again.
Resharpen – yes, agree with your comments about (some) therapists absolving themselves of responsibility for their own ‘stuff’. So convenient to be able to heap everything onto the client. So any criticism or protest is ‘denial’ or ‘projection’ or ‘transference’ or ‘counter-transference’ or ‘non-compliance’. I like the last one especially as it is so ridiculous. As though an adult was under any obligation to ‘comply’ with a therapist, especially one with a personality disorder.
I know that this is a strategy that can be adopted in the therapy industry as it was the strategy employed by the course leaders of the training establishment when they learned that I was prematurely leaving the course. The course leader critiqued some work I had done in a way that rather wonderfully demonstrated his spiteful, sadistic and emotionally immature personality. All the rather nasty things he wrote about me were, in actual fact, a reflection of him and his own unresolved issues. He even sent the critique to me at my home address which I had not requested, just so he could have the last word! As far as I was concerned there was only one place I would have shoved that critique and it’s somewhere where the sun never shines, lol!
What a little sh**! I was inclined to believe that his spite was to do with misogyny, and I think it was, partly, but one of the course leaders who was a woman was equally vindictive and shallow so these delightful qualities (irony intended 🙂 ) are most definitely not gender specific.
Jo Robs, I admire your courage and conviction and integrity to act in accordance with your conscience, and to leave the unethical (and clearly often abusive) therapy industry behind.
Jo Robs I admire your honesty as well walking away. I imagine many people heavily invest, spend the rest of their careers self-deceiving and then damage those who threaten their house of cards.
Though I strongly disagree with Frank Furedi’s writings on some subjects, I’m more in synch with his rants on therapy. His website offers four pages of article links on “therapy culture.”
http://www.frankfuredi.com/index.php/site/category/C6/
Thanks for your supportive comments. So amazing to be able to post here and receive positive feedback about such emotionally charged issues..
This is a red flag checklist I hadn’t previously seen. As usual, I find a few items debatable.
http://www.campsych.com/questions.htm
An interesting list! The therapist I saw would get mostly yes answers. But I have come to the conclusion that she was a bit of a nutter :). She also seemed to be phased by the fact that I had deliberately adopted a different parenting style to that of my parents. This seemed to strike her as unusual as she told me ‘most people repeat patterns of behaviour’ or something to that effect. In other words, family patterns will be repeated through the generations.
But I know many people who have consciously chosen to do things differently. Why is that such a radical concept? Surely many people of reasonable intelligence will be able to look back on their upbringing and see things that were beneficial and things that were less so.
I think I said something like: ‘I couldn’t bear to have screwed up children’ or words to that effect. Had I continued going to see her, I am sure she would have tried to undermine my role as a parent. I happen to think I did a reasonable job of bringing up my children but I think she was sadistic enough to want to have a go at anything that I valued in my life.
I truly think she wanted to attack my sense of self. I suppose that is all part of the little game being played out whereby you pull someone down and then prop them up again. Back to those cult/boot camp techniques where you mess around with people’s perceptions to keep them permanently off-guard.
The question on the list about asking where feelings are located is a gestalt technique, There is an emphasis on locating feelings in the body and describing them. I think there can be some value in this but it needs to be done sensitively and is only one part of the picture.
The incentive structures in the therapy industry are backwards. Your therapist would have preferred to see you ‘repeat patterns of your past’ than to see you thrive and succeed as a parent, as the former means more business, more money, and more opportunity to give interpretations and play the quack role of god-like healer. And if you are doing well in some areas, the incentives are to undo that and then try to build you back up in a way that makes you give them credit for building back up what they tore down (and if it takes gaslighting or other cult leader manipulative tactics to get you to overlook their role in the tear down process, so be it).
It’s sad that so many of us have to learn this the hard way. Setting up closed-door asymmetrical dynamics and shrouding it in secrecy was a brilliant strategy to make sure word doesn’t spread easily.
What this reminds me of is how my therapist did everything to push me back into the proverbial corner I had painted myself into, and was painfully trying to get out of and move on with my life. She indeed increased my problems rather than helped me in any way and she goes on with a legion of “success stories”. The only thing I can reckon is that those successes are people so vulnerable that she was able to convince them of her malarkey. It’s cringe-worthy.
My therapists no doubt thought I was success story too. It was a shared delusion. It was all like a late-night television commercial, elevated voices, urgent music, elated actors finding nirvana thanks to a fall-apart vegetable slicer or car sham. It’s a performance.
In reality, I was a timid woman who needed to more competence and belief in my own perceptions. Having therapists to create MY narrative and provide MY interpretations was a clear step backwards.
I think one can question most conventional wisdom of the healing industry. None of these “truisms” are proven. Child rearing certainly has evolved tremendously over a generation. If anything my baby boom contemporaries took the parenting pendulum in the other direction.
Another psych metaphor they use is therapy is like surgery. We have to somehow be operated on and mended like a heart patient. “You have to feel worse before you feel better.” How convenient. If feeling worse means we’re getting better then does feeling better mean we’re getting worse? If it’s bad, it’s good. And why the surgery metaphor? Therapy is like green cheese. Therapy is like styling mousse.
Reflecting on my best accomplishments (growth?) in real life, there was no surgery, no disassembly. They were collecting my resources to meet challenges.
Here’s a post about how psychotherapists tragically increased the trauma of some 9/11 survivors:
Yet another psych myth–that the past can somehow be purged or exorcised by re-imagining a moment-of-truth. Another fable is brought to us by the mental health industry. If we keep repeating the traumas of the worst moment of our lives, it will…it will…who knows.
It’s amazing how the psych industry embraces a fad then quickly sheds it as yesterday’s foolishness.I’ve yet to read of anyone with regrets about the unproven folly they foist on the public.
Anon – thank you for the link re: the psych. ‘aid’ given to 9/11 victims, & others who just experienced trauma. This part, which explains the mental help that the victims REALLY need struck me: “psychological first aid, which, instead of encouraging people to talk about all their emotions, really just focuses on making sure people feel secure and connected.”
If only the therapists had made me feel ‘secure and connected’!!! This is really what I needed the most when I went to see them. Many of my problems stem from the way my mom always treated me – a LOT of negativity, meanness, & irritability. I NEVER felt ‘secure and connected’ ! That is the FIRST item of business all my therapists should have undertaken, instead of attacking me, ordering me to do various things, being negative of myself and others, etc. However, possibly many therapists can’t do this because they, themselves, do not feel ‘secure and connected’. Once again, if the WRONG persons become therapists, the theories they are supposed to use don’t matter. They won’t use them if it doesn’t ‘suit’ them.
I believe that it is MUCH easier for a therapist to have a victim ‘talk’ about what happened to them. It is MUCH harder for a therapist to make a person feel ‘secure and connected’. Really saddens me.
There’s the paradox here. Because even if a therapist can approximate a “secure and connected” affect, it’s inevitably a performance. Boilerplate reassurance. Next patient. Boilerplate reassurance.
Therapists are crueler than the cruelest of lovers. They beam their attention our way by their rules, at their dictated distance, in their studied, tiny parcels. I’m sorry, our 50 minutes is up. If real friendship and love is a flowing river, the therapy relationship is stagnant water.
Agree. The sadistic nature of people who choose to interact with other human beings in this manner is cringe-worthy.
However, isn’t it possible for SOME therapists to be genuine? If a therapist has ‘passion’ for this work, and genuinely feels that he/she wants troubled people to have better lives, can’t he or she make a client truly ‘secure and connected’, by the therapist using compassion? Also, a genuinely caring therapist can ‘teach’ a client how to feel this way without the therapist, by obtaining decent friends, joining groups, etc., to ‘obtain’ community, etc?
My position is that there are ‘some’ good therapists, but they are too few in number.
Also, in my job, I am a lawyer who represents the disabled, working to get them Social Security Disability benefits. By the time they first contact me, most of my clients have been ‘beaten down’: by ‘others’ telling them ‘myths’ re: obtaining these benefits; very often also by prior lawyers who didn’t treat them well & just wanted money; and most of all by by the ‘system’ – which automatically first gives them losing decisions, even tho many eventually can get benefits. In addition, even successful applicants must wait two or more years to obtain benefits – really beating down these applicants.
I always am compassionate to my clients – my work is a passion of mine, in part because I see how the disabled are treated like blankety-blank in our culture. Often, when I finally get a client benefits, it is like no other feeling. I feel that I have obtained a ‘new life’ for a person.
I guess what I am saying, is that I think a therapist can successfully help a client. Of course, that means that the schools MUST only accept students who are as ‘kind’ and non-self-absorbed as possible, & expell those students if they act otherwise during their training. Also, the therapists must be educated properly in that they are ordered that they ALWAYS must treat their clients with the utmost respect, and that if the therapist needs help, he/she is NEVER to try to obtain this thru treating others, but to get help themselves. Also, when practicing therapy, the licensing board MUST take proper action when a client reports that therapist for ANY ‘unethical’ behavior, and if needed, order that the therapist be supervised, for as ‘long as it takes’.
Resharpen, musing on what you said, I certainly have witnessed compassionate mentors, professionals and specialists. I think it’s often authentic when the professional assists a client toward specific goals or tasks, as you describe. The caseworkers helping me with resources for my family have been invaluable as have teachers, who’ve taught me much beyond the specific skill transmitted. What you do sounds wonderful and life-changing.
I agree too that a worthy life goal is building a support system/friendships/ community out in the world–not the consulting room. It would be great if therapy can help teach that.
I think an essential element of this is the authentically caring person you describe. I assume many therapists are caring.
Perhaps the weakness is in the distorting paradigm, which so often sets up the therapist as removed, omniscient, an actor, an authority figure, a Life Expert. The therapist as guru further reinforces the client as disabled and submissive. Problems are disorders and diagnoses and somehow there is healing. Some therapists believe that mere being in their presence is corrective. The whole process is taught and described through a “scientific” framework.
Therapists even magnify the imperfections of the client’s support system: ie. your mother injured your inner child, your sister is narcissistic, your spouse doesn’t respect your needs. Instead the therapist becomes a rock star and the therapy relationship the focus in itself.
These contrivances seem to pull therapy away from what of what I think a worthy goal, guidance to build friendship and community.
Thanks so much for your comments. In grad school, are therapists ‘taught’ to be compassionate, or to be ‘cold and distant’?? Or is this a result of the ‘scientific’ method they are taught ‘through’??
Resharpen, teaching’s compassion vs. distance seems a very good exploration.
We’ve had a few correspondents here who have gone through training and perhaps can offer their observations.
From my unscientific survey, the framework (training?) strikes me as contradictory. The therapy field purports to be all about compassion.Yet the literature I read even talks about empathy in remote jargon–the therapeutic alliance, the dyad, the container. People in case studies don’t have a name, they have a label.
Resharpen, it sounds like you do wonderful work for your clients and it is really wonderful and admirable that you treat them with dignity and compassion. The key difference, I think, is that your clients (or the government on their behalf) are paying for a legitimate professional service — legal services — and are fortunate to work with someone as compassionate as you.
Paying for compassion in and of itself is like an oxymoron, or emotional prostitution. Such an arrangement probably does more to undermine one’s capacity for genuine mutual relationships in a number of ways, but one that immediately comes to mind is the “breakup.” If the paid relationship had genuine feelings and attachments (and couldn’t turn into a real friendship), then the breakup would hurt. Then you’d left with pain and a bill, which could make it harder to trust and believe in real relationships. And I’m sure we all could go on with more reasons why these types of contrived relationships can’t be genuine . . .
Anon – I disagree. I think that a therapist who shows GENUINE compassion to a client can be great for the client. In my case, anyway, my mother lacked compassion for me (and that is putting it mildly). A therapist who would show me true compassion would have helped me immensely – I suffered from depression & ‘hopelessness’ that most (or all) people just wouldn’t like me. Such a therapist would have revealed to me an entirely different way to look at the world – that I, indeed, was ‘loveable’. That I was not truly ‘alone’ in the world, and that this would not always be my “fate”. In addition, in working on that issue in my life, the therapist could have helped me learn to ‘choose’ to be with others who truly liked & respected me. (I needed to learn that).
As for ‘breakups’ – imo, I have learned that when you care for a person & then there is a ‘breakup’, of course you will suffer emotionally. That is normal – and normal to accept all the feelings that come with that. Whenever you truly care for someone, including feeling romantic love, that is just how it is. Emotions like that can’t be avoided. And, in doing that, you also know that you will be ‘ok’, and that you will find others to get close to.
When one is kicked out after 50 minutes and given a bill, it’s unclear how one could decipher whether they are loved for themselves (for who they are) or “loved” for their business (for what they give, including job security and ego-fuel for therapists). The confusion over this has the potential to make matters worse. Until we understand more about how these things work, and how different people will respond to different situations, I think it’s irresponsible for the therapy industry to play in this territory. (And it’s especially irresponsible and misleading to label it ‘healthcare’ in a society where we have certain expectations of scientific evidence/knowledge associated with that term.)
In any case, I’m really sorry for what you went through. I completely agree that genuine love and compassion and belonging are the most important things in the world; I just don’t think the therapy industry is the place to go looking for it. I would put more hope in a support system that involves mutual give-and-take sharing and mutual vulnerability, in which there are no power imbalances, no exchange of money between participants (perhaps it could be paid to a third-party organizer if necessary), no dehumanizing labels or roles, etc. Perhaps that is what we can all offer to each other.
Contact with a “compassionate” therapist initially filled me with optimism, but amounted to nothing in the larger picture. I might have felt understood in the consulting room–though I really wasn’t–I returned to the wider world with its same responses to me and same results.
Over the years I’ve evolved in what kind of friend and co-worker I’d like to be. And much of this was the pitiable person that seem stoked in therapy.
Therapy literature is full of gooey language about the love and beneficence offered clients. This seems very much at odds with the cold science they employ in their journals.
Psychology, like so many human endeavors, is full of speculation and opinion. As an adult I would say the problem I have had with therapists has not been a lack of compassion (unless I didn’t write a check), but a total inability to listen to what I say about my life and rethink “diagnoses” that were not based on my life but their own meandering thoughts or some stereotypical, cliched theory that will be passe within a few years. I was not given the time or space to bring my issues into the light and examine them and find resolution. I could have gotten the same from disinterested passers-by on the street without the small fortune that I spent. In the end, psychology is a means of making a living and any compassion – no matter how genuine let alone feigned – is rarely held in esteem over the bottom line.
The therapist inevitably work with inaccurate data. People don’t share exact viewpoints about a shared witnessed event. Data becomes even more questionable when filtered through distance, memory and the therapist’s encouragement to go for the pain. My therapists got me all whipped up about my miseries, never giving talk time to much happiness.
Yet I never heard a therapist express the slightest hesitation or doubt about what he heard.
When I was a child I was bullied near to the point of extinction, and was sent to a counselor and psychiatrist in junior high. They, in essence, placed the whole responsibility on my shoulders. If it wasn’t something I had done it had to have been my response that prolonged the behavior of other kids. Their compassion was zero and it made me feel responsible for what was not my doing.
I often use the analogy of a doctor’s office for a myriad of things. Here, I think there are many factors including the fact that a therapist can see many people and be overwhelmed by the problems of others. It can also be that they’ve heard so much of the same thing over and over that they become numb. And then, of course, there is the possibility that they are taught how to keep at a distance. Ironically, the therapist I had the most problems with was not distant. She was far too familiar and it made the experience very uncomfortable. Her compassion was not healthy but invasive.
I think when we place so much reliance on any given thing or person – we most often find trouble. Any healing from trauma must be holistic – we need a wide variety of healthy activities, physical activity, cultivating community, etc.. Depending upon one person, and one hour a week not to mention theories that (like in medical circles) get replaced every five years by further research or what’s fashionable at the time is simply a recipe for further damage.
I’m sorry and sadden you both had to go through those experiences, only to have them compounded by bad therapy.
My parents were my principal bullies, and beginning with our childhood family therapist, they were at best benignly useless and at worst damaging. I don’t think any therapist pinpointed specific changes or the practical assistance I needed–they only saw me in the artificial context of therapy. Over the years I felt more competent.
Resharpen, I think you have a good point about conformity. I imagine many go to couples counseling in search of an ally. This also happens in individual therapy with unwitnessed situations the therapist might not begin to understand.
Who decides what changes even are even desirable? Should be all strive to be professional cheerleaders, or CEOs or Nobel Prize winning chemists? What about gender roles and politics? What if we’re women and disregard the widespread pressure to “doll up”? How can we even know the best version of ourselves and how can an outsider begin to assess this? Therapists seem to skew toward a set of traits which we unlikely would want to emulate.
I agree that healing is holistic. We can practice exercises in “assertiveness” or “undistorted” thoughts, but I can’t imagine how therapy can shortcut life experience. But it certainly can interfere with it.
GW – what a horror you underwent! Reminds me of a few things – one is that EVEN adults, therapists, have prejudices re: ‘the in crowd’ – and STILL want to be ‘part of it’. also, they often assume that the ‘many’ MUST be correct, and that anyone the ‘many’ don’t like are WRONG. It has a lot to do with the notion that we must ‘conform to society’, and if we don’t, WE are wrong. We – as in Gay people, women who stand up for themselves, minorities fighting for their rights, etc. Many therapists are nothing more than sheer conformists themselves. After all, that is what their training teaches them – what theories are ‘correct’, etc. They are not taught to be rebels, and/or to question the ‘authorities’ or majority, or the ‘large crowd’ who bullies, etc.
I underwent a version of this with my ex-husband when we sought marital counseling. TWO therapists automatically took his side, even tho what he said was ridiculous. Why? Because we were living in a college town, and he was the ‘big professor’, and I only his ‘little spouse’. In that environment, the professors are worshipped, and EASILY become bullies. He actually told both therapists that ‘all the problems in our marriage were MY fault’ (meaning me – Resharpen’s fault). And these two a holes agreed with him and turned on me, as I was crying hysterically. Even the therapists want to be part of the ‘elites’ or in crowd, as in your case. Once again, for the thousandth time, they DO NOT LOOK AT THEMSELVES – they just wreck damage.
Resharpen, you were very unlucky with your couples therapists. When your ex-husband said that all the problems in your marriage were your fault, some therapists would have taken this as a major alarm signal showing that your husband was the true source of the problems. There was a tendency in the family therapy movement to think that the member of a couple or family who seemed to be the problem person was in fact the scapegoat or victim. This could lead to defending the ‘scapegoat’ at all costs and blaming the apparently healthy person for everything. This was an extension of the 1950s-1960s belief of the Palo Alto school that schizophrenia was a disease of the family. It led to a side-with-the-scapegoat approach in couples therapy. This was widely accepted in the 1970s, and then lost ground, but even today there seem to be lots of therapists who accept it.
I find it intriguing that different therapists can adopt exactly opposite approaches, depending on their presuppositions.
GW, I’m a quieter, have never been an attention getter, and at odds with the standard definitions of femininity or mainstream womanhood. I grew up in the part of the country where the bubbly, poofy-hair cheerleader was the admired female. It’s painful to be outside the norm, but now believe that no amount of “competent” therapy, if there is such a thing, would turn me into a different person, nor would I would have wanted that.
I also have found more wisdom in stories and literature than from any therapist. Enduring stories are such often because they are insightful and honest. I’ve watched theatre audiences murmur in identification with perplexed, outsider characters, cluing me that perhaps everyone has those moments of isolation or feeling like the square peg.
The comments about the therapy industry authoritarianism reminded me of this post:
http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/02/why-anti-authoritarians-are-diagnosed-as-mentally-ill/
Authoritarianism so often is situational. It easily can be the expressions and experiments of someone searching for a niche.
This link above certainly resembles Jo Rob’s reporting and our speculations about the training process.
The piece on anti-authoritarians was very good and I think so true. I have always been seen as an individualist and that has caused me many problems including people thinking that I always am in need of therapy or clinically depressed. From their own personality tests I am an introvert, very quiet (unless I have something to say or know people very well), intuitive, very dialectic, and I think for myself. There certainly may be traumatic reasons for some of this but generally I have always deviated from the norm (naturally not defiantly unless there’s a social cause I support). I stayed with my mother as an adult because she needed my support emotionally, physically, and financially. Thus, I must be sexually repressed! What morons (and not just the therapists but all who play the game of armchair psychology). I am not saying I do not have issues. I do. Which is why I tried therapy again after my mother passed. But from what I can tell – the great spiritual traditions, and great literature reveal more about the human condition than most clinical psychology ever will. All come from the hands of frail human beings but there is wisdom embedded there where there is just psychobabble and conjecture woven throughout the ever-increasingly ugly tapestry that psychiatry and psychology have woven.
Good for you for taking care of your Mom! the silly ‘criticisms’ you received are SO culturally biased! In this country – it is the ‘individual’ who counts. However, in many other cultures, it is NORMAL to live with a parent who needs help. I lived in Mexico for 2 years, and even the adult children of the upper class – who had money – lived in their parents’ home until they got married. It is more family-oriented. I am not saying this is better than our culture, but it just shows that we humans are considered ‘normal’ depending on what is considered ‘normal’ in our culture – and this is ridiculous.
One thing that strikes me is that a great many of the theories that have influenced the therapy industry were invented at a time when society was very different to today – much more traditional. Think how much has changed in the past 20+ years with regard to attitudes towards gender/sexuality/marriage/minority groups/child welfare and so on. Combine that with the influence of the internet with regards to information, communication and access to knowledge that hitherto was difficult if not impossible to access unless you were part of a (probably) elite group – such as a doctor/politician/lawyer and so on. Now a lay person can access so much information and it inevitably has eroded, to some extent, the elitism and power base of those in positions of power and authority (thank goodness!)
With regards to counselling training providers, I would imagine that the more enlightened schools would be teaching a hybrid approach – combining what they consider to be the best approaches. But a lot depends on what is currently the ‘flavour of the month’. In the UK the trend has been towards counselling that is more results based such as cognitive behavioural therapy, for instance, not least because, if it is to be funded by our state health service, the patient does not need (theoretically in any case) as many sessions, so it is cheaper. In my opinion there is a lot to be said for this but I suppose you could argue that in cases where a person is seriously emotionally disturbed it might take a lot more to unravel the demons. I don’t know what the answer is in those types of cases – and neither does anyone else, so it would seem!
Do the training providers specifically look for certain personal qualities such as one would hope to find in a person working in a ‘caring’ role such as empathy/compassion/ an altruistic side to one’s personality? I am sure many do. A training course for counselling children in this country, for instance, specifies that they are looking for evidence of these qualities and requires references to prove it.
However, the training provider where I trained appeared to be more interested in students who were acquiescent towards authority figures. Some of the students most definitely had compassionate and kind natures. But, on reflection, many if not most had come from fairly disturbed backgrounds – verbal and or physical abuse/sexual abuse/ abandonment. A fair number had slipped through the educational net and left school without any qualifications at all. There were a few who had not come from abusive backgrounds and appeared to have had relatively ‘normal’ family environments (and again one has to put this in the context of the times – ie: when I was growing up it was ‘normal’ for fathers to have very little input in children’s lives). However, I am now aware that a different dynamic emerged with those few – who had also, as it happened, had a more ‘privileged’ upbringing (and I use that term extremely guardedly as privilege is a double-edged sword).
Anyway, those few seemed to carry a burden of guilt and/or shame around their upbringings. In the UK, at any rate, there is, or used to be, a horrendously entrenched class system with much snobbery/inverse snobbery and generally big class divides which cut through education/where you lived and so on. Again, this IS changing but certainly when I was growing up the class system was a massive influence.
So – on the one hand there were students who came from family environments where there was overt abuse – many had slipped through the educational net and so, on one level, would be considered unprivileged. On the other hand there were some students who had had what would be considered to be ‘privileged’ upbringings – access to good education, high achieving parents no ‘obvious’ abuse. ……but……they had guilt and shame surrounding their ‘privilege’. and, if you dug a bit deeper, you would find that those high achieving parents had succeeded in creating straight A students who were expert at jumping through high hoops but actually had quite low esteem measuring themselves chiefly by external validation.
I think the students from ‘privileged’ backgrounds were used as scapegoats (i.e: ‘what have you got to complain about – you are from a privileged elite’). The course leaders appeared to encourage dysfunction and back-stabbing.
It was dysfunctional. And as I have written up thread the course leaders were plain nasty. I would never have embarked on the course if I had realized in advance what they were like. They were petty, small-minded and vindictive but, astonishingly, grandiose with an over-inflated sense of their own importance. One had clearly come from an incredibly dysfunctional family and both had worked in hierarchical institutions where they could wield their power over others for a very long time.
In another field I do not believe that people like that would have been able to survive, let alone be authority figures, but in the strange cult-like world of therapy, where everything is done behind closed doors and is shrouded in psychobabble, they can get away with it – at least for a bit longer. And if they select students who are so psychologically damaged that they cannot necessarily recognize mediocrity (and that’s being kind) then they can keep their power base going for a surprisingly long time. Plus, in the UK, counselling is not well regulated. There are a host of different training providers with different systems of regulation. The training school I was at was regulated by one of the counselling professional bodies – except that it wasn’t, because I did not follow the ethical guidelines.
I have explained up thread why I did not lodge a formal complaint. I’ve done it before with professional institutions and have found that the whistle blower is not just unwelcome but is kicked to the curb.
So glad I have found this blog! Quite cathartic!
That should read IT (as in the training institute) did not follow the ethical guidelines – I like to think that I did!
Plus, if you select students who are in a vulnerable position for whatever reason they are likely to be ‘grateful’ to even have a place on the course so will not want to do anything that will rock the boat. (Bear in mind, some students did not even have the minimum level of education so it would have been very difficult for them to get into more mainstream courses).
I’d think the very process of reducing human traits and interactions into categories, and analyzing them as “cases” teaches remoteness. Is the therapist asked to have two faces–the caring empathetic hand for the client, then the cool, observant scientist in her evaluation? Already this distorts a free flow between human beings.
This student thinks she’s being supremely humanistic while she solicits her colleagues to examine me like an insect. “And any other thoughts on her or her qualitative, (I think,) narrative? ”
Like most professionals, she misses the point. She reminds me of a snide little girl on the middle school playground. I refrained from jumping in pseudonymously since the discussion thankfully has died down. The third snide comment is from a blogger, not a therapist.
http://tinyurl.com/o6a8qnn
Agree. There is nothing natural, dignified, or helpful about this duplicitous method of regarding and interacting with our fellow human beings. The hypocrisy, condescension, and self-serving delusions of the therapy industry are cringe-worthy.
I don’t think therapist status grants a justification for simple rudeness.
“I am wondering why someone so intelligent allowed herself to be harmed by these therapists.” — This sure sounds like blaming the client to me!
“But I’m not judging her by all means. ” — If the preceding sentence (especially the “allowed herself to be harmed”) isn’t judging, what is?
I didn’t comment either, but if I had, would have mentioned some of the kinds of things I mentioned in the madinamerica anit-authoritarian discussion: I sensibly didn’t go back to the first therapist I tried (She talked too much about herself and her office was in a damp, dark, moldy smelling basement — rational enough reasons for not going back). The second one I tried said, “You expect too much. That’s your problem” when I said I was quitting (Reasons for quitting? Her responses to questions were more appropriate for a small child than for an intelligent, well-educated adult; she said I might not like the therapy when I indicated that I had a problem with “being the star”; she said inane things and jumped to conclusions wildly). But that type of “blanket” criticism (“You expect too much; that’s your problem,”) hit me at my weak spot, so I was shaken and not in my right mind when I tried the next therapist. That next therapist said things like, “Are you sure you’re not second guessing me?”, “Do you realize you’re asking me to give up my control?” ,”I can’t help you if you take everything I say as criticism” (I didn’t), etc., etc., which I either I found so shocking I was speechless, or which again hit me where I was weakest.
OK, so according to this SETA (whatever that is) volunteer, I guess I “allowed” this therapist to harm me.
And then, when I finally mustered enough self-respect to quit her, guess what? I found another therapist whom I “allowed” to harm me.
Maybe we should call ourselves PWATTHU’s — People Who Allow Therapists to Harm Us.
(I’m rarely this sarcastic, but this link really got to me.)
Mary, the link frosted me as well.
This is a post on “Links For Shrinks” part of linked in. An arrogant psychotherapy student linked to this blog, posturing her great :)humanism 🙂 ….this makes me think perhaps I’ll be more like Carl Rogers…” simultaneously inviting contributors to examine me like an insect…”Any other thoughts on her or her qualitative, (I think,) narrative?”
She failed comprehend what I wrote, yet incorrectly inferred what I never wrote.
The student clearly didn’t read my blog carefully, which I hope explains the “rigged” power game of psychotherapy. I explained that my therapists’ did their best to manipulate me into staying in treatment Intelligent people are fooled by false experts, manipulated in love, swindled by Bernie Madoff. I attended a luncheon with several TELL women who all were extremely articulate.
The student never answered my personal response to her. There are some hoops to responding to that thread Linked In thread. Since it faded quickly, I decided not to stir it up with a comparably snarky rejoinder.
Here’s the link if you’re in the mood to be depressed about the upcoming generation of nasty-girl therapists. Meow.;)
http://tinyurl.com/o6a8qnn
This is the unanswered letter I wrote that student when I was more patient than I am tonight.
Jamaica
I followed the link to your linked in blog, and want to respond. Though I very much appreciate your interest in my blog and am heartened it precipitated a reflection process for you, I’m unsure that you understood my points. I attempted to discuss, among other things, that therapists so invest in theory that they abandon human courtesy and common sense.
The breakdown wasn’t my therapist bringing “issues into light that were not brought by the client that distressed her.” He had Dr. Phil contempt and rudeness, minus the slightest insight. He was never helpful and then became very insulting, controlling and angry when I tried to leave. You inaccurately inferred something that I never said. Aren’t most people are “distressed” by contempt and rudeness, and more so when the source wears an authoritative mantle?
I’m dismayed by your ad hominem comments, that I “allowed myself to be harmed” (blame the victim!) and wince “And any other thoughts on her?” As adverse as I am to therapy, I didn’t ask to be analyzed or commented upon. Please put yourself in someone else’s shoes. I wrote the essay to put forth ideas, not to be examined like a lab rat.
Unfortunately, human beings are subject to being duped, particularly when an “authority figure” has an avenue to stir their hopes and exploit their vulnerability.These therapists believed in their hearts they were doing right, so I followed. They fooled themselves most of all. The worst therapist had degrees from (redacted prestigious schools) . The referring therapist was a (redacted Ivy League school) graduate.
You might look at work around traumatic bonding, and books like Ellen Plasil’s Therapist, the account Tragedy in Sedona about a human potential huckster, The Guru Papers and other writing on cults, and Gas Lighting the Double Whammy to name a few.
Answers, I don’t know. A good first step though, would have been an egalitarian, respectful relationship, and setting realistic expectations what might be accomplished.
My blog has “scared” many a therapist, so I do appreciate you reflecting and diving in.
No relationship to Kristin C., I assume.
and, Anon: thank you for the kind compliments!
See the article below: a therapist explains how he offers empathy, acceptance and understanding to mental health patients. He listens to what they have to say, instead of merely shuffling them to some ‘specialist’ or psychiatrist for more ‘drugs’. In my mind, this is what therapists should concentrate on.
http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/04/being-with-those-in-serious-distress-empathy-compassion-dignity-and-relationship/
That therapist does sound respectful in looking for connections to his clients on their terms. I reacted well reading that.
One of my therapists was “kind,” but in a performed way. But I needed to be a stronger, hustling adult, and her pitying mother figure was the last thing I needed. I could have used some real-time support dealing with difficult parents and functioning in the business world.
It’s noteworthy that whatever good the author may have done (which is unknown since he only offers self-praising anecdotes, which are subject confirmation bias and other cognitive errors) was despite the practices and training of the therapy industry rather than because of it. I strongly agree with his vote for activism and addressing the societal/cultural issues and oppression that is at the root of distress for many. Again, though, I don’t think that the therapy industry is well-positioned or well-trained to do this important work since it requires a problem-solving approach that is the opposite of the individual-pathologizing one it uses now.
PS – I looked at some of the author’s other articles, as well, and he seems very focused on saying that he does not seek to be in a position of power over the children he works with. “The [man] doth protest too much, methinks.”
Hi Dis:
I came across your comment in the NY Times (the everyday sadist article). I was intrigued by your view and went to your website. I assumed at first you had a very black and white view, but coming here to your blog I’m surprised how much I agree with you.
I went back to school in clinical psychology in my 40s, so maybe I’m not typical. I remember, when I started grad school, reading a study on empathy in 1000 students at the California School of Professional Psychology. Their scores in empathy DROPPED dramatically after 5 years of grad school. Well, I wasn’t surprised and it certainly took hard work not to go down the same route.
My interest in psychology came from over 2 decades of interest in spirituality. I was extremely wary of the whole notion of therapy. I had tried out – to see what it was like – therapy with 3 people, 2 of whom fit very well your description of non empathic people, the other was a very lovely person but I don’t think it was any different from talking to a friend. no power issues, nothing bad, just sitting around talking.
Since graduating (1999) I have avoided doing therapy professionally as much as possible (for many of the reasons you list). I had 2 people I saw who requested it, one I saw for a few months and one for 2 years. With the 2 year client, I needed to be alert every session to make sure we were both “real” (there was a 30 year difference in our ages). I went by my first name, not “dr. salmon – though sometimes a request to be called “dr. fish” would help shatter any idealization that arose), and the relationship was much more a cross between trusted older friend and coach.
Having said all that, i have met therapists who seem to me to be doing wonderful work, who are alert to all the dangers you mention. I particularly love David Burns’ approach (I see you mentioned him a year or so ago; terrible that you got the reaction you did). I particularly love his humor. Jan (my wife) and I use his framework on our CBT page on our site – http://www.remember-to-breathe.org).
One thing on our site that I think speaks to what you’re talking about is what we call “the Most Important Page”, which points to research showing that more than medication or therapy, the single most healing thing is community – but that’s community where there is cohesion, respect, love, and a sense of meaning and purpose in people’s lives – something unfortunately in short supply in today’s world.
One more thought – As someone who has done research, I think you might look again at some of the latest research on mindfulness. The physiological measures are so sound – improvement not only in central nervous system functioning, including, literally, thickening of the corpus callosum, but in immune, endocrine, autonomic, cardiovascular and other systems of the body. When used as an integral part of counseling, it is just as powerful as medication for virtually every psychiatric problem except possibly bipolar and schizophrenia, though I’ve been seeing more research about mindfulness being successful in getting bipolar individuals off medication, and now there is a worldwide self help network of schizophrenics using mindfulness to deal with hallucinations and even paranoid delusions. And mindfulness is far better than medication at preventing relapse.
Burns himself does not use any medication for 60% of the clients seen at his clinic, and of the other 40%, almost all get off medication within less than a year. And he mostly uses CBT though i heard a year or two ago he’s become interested in mindfulness. And finally, Dan Siegel’s “interpersonal neurobiology” (featured on our site) seems to have profound potential not only for therapy but (as you very wonderfully emphasize) for self help.
Goldie Hawn has arranged for Dan’s work to be used in over 1000 schools. As one 9 year old student said, when asked why she liked IPNB, “Now I know how to make myself happy.”
donsalmon7@gmail.com
Don – thank you for your comment. Out of curiousity, I will read about the therapies you mentioned. Also, I do agree that Community is very essential to a patient getting better.
HOWEVER, -and I have mentioned this in my comments over and over again – how do you, or Burns, or ANYONE ensure that the therapists/healers/teachers who use the methods you propose actually treat their clients with respect, and compassion?? You write: “I have met therapists who seem to me to be doing wonderful work, who are alert to all the dangers you mention.” One big problem here is that most therapy is done one-on-one, with only two people in the room – the therapist and the client. NO ONE ELSE ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT GOES ON IN THAT ROOM. Unless I tape record a session, and play it back for you, you don’t REALLY know what took place. I have heard MANY therapists say the most ‘wonderful’ things, but in actual practice, they can be awful people.
You may respond, ‘yes, BUT they have said they treat their clients with compassion, etc.’ I will still respond – no one but the clients know that for sure.
My problem with past therapists is NOT the methods they used, but the fact that they were often very cruel, selfish people whose aim was NOT to help their clients, but to use their clients to do any or all of the following:
‘cure’ themselves of their own problems; ‘lecture’ to their clients to ‘follow’ their own ‘belief systems’, such as ‘all men are horrible’; ‘make’ the client their therapist; take their anger or other emotions out on their clients, and I could go on and on.
For example: I had one therapist who just HAD to tell us (couples counseling) that his wife was nothing more than a ‘Jewish spendthrift’. When I called him on it, telling him that we were Jewish, his response? ‘well, that is what SHE is’. My first therapist I swear had borderline personality disorder – she would scream at me, ‘order’ me to take certain actions in my life (because SHE had), would tell me her problems until there were ENTIRE sessions of only ‘her problems’; When I told another therapist in the first session what I wanted to address in therapy, she put her nose in the air and responded ‘and THAT bothers you?!’ like I was a ridiculous person. Another would NOT say a word in sessions of couples counseling until I asked her to talk, and she responded ‘I can’t, because you two have too much going on’, but stuck her hand out for my check. Two other couples counselors, separately, were incredibly mean to me while I was crying hysterically, one said that I ‘acted like a victim’ & the other said cruel things, ignoring my feelings & needs. And these are just SOME of the therapists I have seen.
I personally believe that many become therapists because they have a need to feel ‘close’ with another person, as we all do. However, they are unable to get these needs met in normal life, so they try to obtain them with their clients. The clients tell the therapists their problems, the therapists finally get to feel ‘close’ to another, but within strict bounds, so that the therapists THEMSELVES never have to feel vulnerable, only their clients do. They are scared of vulnerability.
When I have told other therapists of my experiences, most immediately ask me “What degrees did they have?” and “what methods did they use?” I tell them:
IT DOES NOT MATTER. If a therapist treats their clients badly, THAT is what matters. I respond ‘What method or degree program teaches a therapist to scream at their clients? tell their clients their own problems? Make anti-Semitic and/or racist statements? Say NOTHING during entire sessions?”
Others here have discussed whether therapy can EVER be beneficial, as it automatically places the therapist and client on such an ‘uneven’ basis – the therapist is the ‘god who knows all’ while the client is like a humble peasant.
Once again, no matter how beneficial the treatments you have explained are, if used by cruel therapists, they will not work. And not only will they NOT work, they will make the client feel much worse. I know – I used to walk out of therapists’ offices’ feeling far worse than when I had entered – crying hysterically; feeling 1000 times more dejected and hopeless; incredibly depresses.
Your methods may be good ones, but UNLESS you ensure that the therapists treat their clients with the decency and respect they deserve, I, for one, will NEVER see such a therapist, and I will caution others to do the same.
First to resharpen – I must say, I agree with all your concerns.
One of my initial responses was, well, that could be a problem with any one to one – doctor, lawyer, priest, etc. However, at least in terms of doctor and lawyer, they aren’t claiming to deal directly with your psyche. But the comparison with a priest or minister is close – in fact, it may even be potentially more troubling than a therapist. For most people, the spiritual side of themselves (and even for atheists, whatever is most dear and most precious to one) is the most vulnerable place. There may not be anything worse than a priest or minister or “guru” taking advantage of, or holding power over someone.
I myself studied under a meditation teacher for 10 years who, I finally discovered, was wildly abusing his position. It took me at least a year to finally admit he was doing it, so much was I wishing to “believe in” him. This was about 30 years ago, so hopefully, I’ve become a bit wiser since then!
But even with therapists, I agree, it’s very tricky. I alluded to but didn’t quite make it clear, I personally DO think there’s something potentially problematic with the very format, the whole once a week, it’s just you and me, but it’s not really just you and me talking, there’s potentially a power dynamic (doesn’t have to be but VERY hard and takes much skill, love, compassion, empathy, etc – and wisdom – not to fall into it) and of course, there’s money. Just to go on with that for a moment – I tried therapy my first year of grad school, well, because you’re supposed to. I actually brought up this artificiality, and he said, “Well, look, we’re just 2 guys sitting around talking.” He was quite a nice guy and no power stuff, but still, it felt artificial and I said so. I said, “No it’s not that. We meet by appointment, I pay you money, and there’s all kinds of unspoken “rules” about what we’re supposed to be doing.” I’m actually sort of OK with that as long as the therapist is not pretending we’re just two folk sitting around talking. That’s not what’s going on.
With both of the “clients” I saw (it’s been about 7 years since I swore off doing therapy altogether), I tried to insist that it wasn’t therapy. They both came to me initially to learn meditation, then wanted help with some other issues. I tried every session to do everything I could to avoid the power dynamics, to put us on equal footing, etc etc, but you know what? It was scheduled, they were paying me, and there were certain guidelines.
I’d love to come up with some other way of doing this. I think self help groups are great – part of what we want to do with our website is make many of these wonderful practices available. I’m thinking of creating a “meet up” group here in Asheville with some suggested guidelines but basically with no “leader.’
One of the stories we’re going to put in our “most important page” section is about poor, illiterate women in Southern African who have received some very simple training in listening who are having as much success treating severe depression and even PTSD as any psychiatrist or social worker. Pretty cool stuff, no? (and here in Asheville, the doctors are pretty upset about Project Asheville, which trains pharmacists, nurses and others to go around town and train people how to care for diabetes, hypertension, and other lifestyle disease).
And disequilibrium 1, I love the phrase: “disordered lab rat.” You have to realize that so much of therapy training is focused on what’s wrong with people. I remember a 2nd year Rorschach class (something one of my academic therapy-hating professors described as being as useful as interpreting toilet bowl swirls!:>)) the teacher passed out a “rorschach” and asked what the diagnosis was. My 14 classmates guessed everything from major depression to ADHD to antisocial personality disorder. I said the kid was normal. I was right – and the teacher said almost no students ever get that right, and she does that exercise every year to point out to the students how much they’ve gotten focused on what’s wrong.
My psychoanalysis teacher admitted once (when I complained about therapists using “interpretations” as a means of browbeating their patients) that interpretations are almost always ‘pejorative” – that was his word.
So what do we do? Mindfulness, CBT, heart centering, breathing, imagery, etc etc – these are extraordinary things. Look at our brain pages, in the sections on epigenetics, placebo and neuroplasticity – it’s absolutely amazing what we can do in terms of healing without using any medication, surgery, herbs, supplements, etc. http://www.remember-to-breathe.org/Train-Your-Brain.html Truly miraculous, to me.
I just met with the Buncombe County Police (I do police evaluations, among other things), and proposed giving a free seminar, or series of seminars, to teach the police basics about their brains, and how to train the brain, as a way of managing what has become out of control post traumatic stress disorder among law enforcement officers. And I’d like to offer free sessions for disability applicants (I do disability evals also).
But most of all I’d love to do a session for the judges who routinely deny disability claims because someone has a minor drug offense in the past (like using marijuana a few times) or as a judge actually said within earshot of an attorney, in regard to a women in severe, debilitating pain, who occasionally smokes marijuana because she hates the way pain medication affects her, “I”m not giving her money to buy pot.”
You think therapists can be bad, you should spend some time with these administrative law judges who hate disability applicants – people with legitimate, crippling pain and other illnesses who would give anything to be able to work.
Now, the greatest challenge of all – can I develop compassion for these judges????!??!?@#$???
sorry for going on so long; don’t worry, i won’t keep posting such long letters; you did inspire me – to my surprise – to think pretty deeply about this. Good website. Good for you for doing this.
Don – Believe me, I know ALL about the Social Security Disability benefits system. I am a lawyer, and in the last 20 years, I have represented hundreds of clients who have applied for these benefits. I do agree that that system, and in particular, the Administrative Law Judges, are very dysfunctional. HOWEVER, there are still differences between horrific ALJs and horrific therapists.
One big difference is that there is an APPEAL process as to ridiculous decisions by ALJs. I have appealed dozens of these decisions to the Appeals Council, and 90% of the time I have been granted new hearings. Also, the Appeals Council issues specific guidelines to the Judges re: exactly WHAT they must do differently in the new hearing. In my experience, the client usually wins benefits in this follow-up hearing.
In addition, there is a process whereby an individual can complain about a judge, and sometimes this does resolve that judge’s ridiculous behavior.
As to bad therapists, there is NOTHING even close to filing an ‘appeal’ or ‘complaint’ after seeing a horrific therapist. The only possible ‘action’, which is futile, is to file a complaint with the particular licensing board that had issued a license to that therapist. For 10 years, I worked as a lawyer to the licensing boards in Illinois. The ONLY action they took re: ‘unethical behavior’ by a therapist is when a therapist sleeps with a client.
The upshot is that the only possible recourse a client can take who has been treated like dirt on the floor by a therapist is to NEVER COME BACK. That is it. And then the therapist will just go on and treat the NEXT client like crap (pardon my French, but that is the truth).
I was somewhat surprised by your response. It is a shame, for sure, that ministers, etc., can also mistreat clients. However, two wrongs don’t make a right. I have not had experience with ‘bad ministers’, etc., and therefore can not speak to that.
You fail to mention much as to actions that can, or should, be taken when a therapist has stepped out of bounds, except for ‘support groups’. I agree that they can help. The method by which the African women learn to listen to others with PTSD sounds wonderful; however, many of us want a 2-way street with a therapist. I know I wouldn’t be satisfied if all a therapist did was to ‘listen’. Also, the work you do with the police, etc., is great.
However, NONE of this affects the horrific things that many therapists do to their clients. From what you have explained, it seems that you have not had the bad experiences that I, and others on this site, have undergone with therapists. Please re-read my prior message, and those of others. Put yourself in OUR shoes, and ask yourself just how you would feel?
A new action which I think should be mandatory is having a therapist’s sessions be ‘supervised’ by a senior therapist. This would best be accomplished by having the sessions videotaped, and later a few would be reviewed by the senior therapist at random. In addition, the client would have a right to complain to the senior therapist about the therapist, if it is warranted. And the licensing boards must be open to properly disciplining a therapist’s license if the therapist acts in an unethical manner, other than sleeping with a patient.
As I asked in my prior message, how can you, or others, ensure that the therapists, etc. you train with your modalities will treat their clients with the proper respect and decency?
Weeding people out in training or supervision is one issue. But on the other end is the process itself leaving clients much less powerless, so we can say goodbye to the damaging ones, just like we would leave gruff doctors etc. I think so much of the damage is that clients so often begin the relationship one-down.
http://wealthofthecommons.org/essay/share-or-die-–-challenge-our-times
Ok resharpen, I have to say, first – I was planning to try to keep my posts short. Not going to happen, sorry.
Second, you got to me – this has been reverberating in me since your post yesterday. I haven’t thought about therapy in at least 5 years; never interested in it, always highly doubtful of it – in fact, was probably something of a “black sheep” in my doctoral program as I didn’t (you won’t be surprised, I imagine:>)) do too well in keeping my doubts quiet.
Finally, in order to answer your interesting and provocative comments, I came to see I either had to write an essay, a book or create a website (shameless self-promotion moment – yes, I’m going to mention my website a few times; sorry:>)
I started by thinking – well, the whole notion of therapy is wrong; the whole notion of mental illness is wrong, and the whole notion of people having difficulties being considered to have a ‘disease” or even being part of health care is wrong.
So i thought, well, most of the stuff that brings people to therapy should be dealt with in terms of learning, education.
But don’t even get me started on the revolution we need in education (well, I did get started – you can look up ‘Yoga Psychology in the Schools” at the Infinity Foundation website – http://www.infinityfoundation.com; go to Indic Mandala; Essays, Inner). It’s been a passion of mine since 8th grade (should I say the year? 1965) when Look Magazine came out with a special issue by Look editor George Leonard called “Education as Ecstasy” and my 8th grade self said – to paraphrase Molly Bloom – Yes, Yes 1000 times Yes!!.
But the MindUp! curriculum, inspired by Dan Siegel’s “interpersonal neurobiology (IPNB – and yes, it’s the basis for our website) and developed by actress Goldie Hawn and now in over 1000 schools, is not a bad place to start.
But why limit that to the classroom. You can buy a book, go to the website (Dan’s, not mine), subscribe to the Digital Journal or start a meetup and people can learn together. I’m trying to see if the police here are interested; I’d love to find out how to interest attorneys (and judges), and make it available for free to disability applicants (and let’s get rid of both the psychologists – that’s me – and the attorneys and just train some disability examiners first to see if an applicant needs disability but more important revolutionize the whole health care, political, economic and rehabilitation system so we can basically get to a point where 90% of the applicants won’t be disabled)
See what I mean about not being able to write a short post? And I haven’t even gotten to your question.
The shortest answer is “I don’t know” – what percentage of therapists are horrific? 10, 20, 30? But this site shows that the whole set up is problematic because even the best tend to
(a) look at their clients/patients as having a “mental illness” or at best, having a “problem” to be solved.
(b) see the “therapeutic hour” as some magical moment apart from life.
(c) have a difficult time not bringing power dynamics into the room.
I don’t know – have a reporting system that really works? Require that all therapists get David Burns’ evaluation forms (Burns insists that all his therapist/trainees use evaluation forms at the end of EVERY session and sincerely seek out feedback from their clients on how they’re doing). Problem is that bad therapists will find some way to subvert this process, threatening patients who give them bad reviews.
One thing maybe is to educate everyone who goes into therapy (not going to happen, I’m afraid) and make them understand the process and learn how to very rapidly report any problems.
The problem with this is that if you’ve got the 50 or so percent of good therapists and whatever percent of truly difficult patients (ok, this is going to rile everybody on the site, but I have to momentarily present the other side and say, if you haven’t met them, there are some truly difficult people who are truly – well, what careful word should I use – let’s say the word “paranoid” and sociopath” really does apply to someone??? – and might just like to cause problems for someone no matter how good they are.
I don’t know – that’s the short answer repeated. Make sure the board in your state is open to hearing complaints and is capable of doing something.
But there’s no guarantee. It’s not just the disability system that is dysfunctional. The whole culture, here and elsewhere, is falling apart.
Which brings me to the URL at the beginning of this post (see, I got this far without mentioning the actual URL of our website yet):>))
It’s a link to the story of a wonderful book called “Share or Die.” Something along these lines – creating a healthy culture where everyone has a sense fo meaning and purpose, where people connected (in short – what is now being called a “blue zone” and yes, we write about it on “The Most Important Page” on our website – http://www.remember-to-breathe.org
Seriously, and to get finally to the point of all this and the real answer to your question – that’s my answer. Get people together, get communities together, join together in love and common purpose – and it can be done; there’s lots of people here in Asheville and around the country and around the world – who are dedicating their lives to it – and you’ll find all kinds of radical new ways to train the brain and change our consciousness that completely transcend the old ‘therapy’ mode.
In 2014, Jan and I plan to devote the year to seeing how much we can do this in Asheville. We’ve met dozens of people just this past summer who are doing it in incredibly cool ways. There’s mycelium and SOLE, both amazing learning environments where people are committed to transforming learning, inner and outer change and creating sustainability, there’s Odyssey integral learning environment, a kindergarten through high school amazing educational experiment that Jan and I just visited last night. We’re going to the mayoral forum tonight where three remarkable candidates are all quite aware of these experiments in blue zone/sustainable living here in Asheville.
I applaud your efforts to make therapy accountable but in a way, I suspect the whole notion of “therapy” is so 20th century, something new is emerging, and it’s going to break the bounds of everything we thought of back then as “mental health” and “education” and all those boxes that keep us from moving forward.
I’m sorry if this all sounds pie in the sky. I probably would have thought so during the 8 or so years we lived in Greenville, SC (yikes – the world of Jim Demented and Bob Jones University). But as former New Yorkers living in Asheville, it seems that anything is possible. I encourage you to look at “Share or Die” or go to our site or Reality Sandwich (talk about the anti conventional therapy site!) and then try to start something in your neighborhood – at home, iin the community, at work, or wherever.
Check out “blue zones” and look at our site and what it means to activate the mid prefrontal cortex and the heart brain and to live in the ‘core” or the “hub” of the “wheel of awareness”.
And think about what it means when a 9 year old girl is asked what she likes about the mind up curriculum and says, “I like it because now I know how to make myself happy”
y’all are welcome to write – donsalmon7@gmail.com (as they say at the local Indian street food restaurant here, Chai Pani – “namaste y’all”
I alluded in my initial essay to the yearnings we all seem to have for release from our challenges and relief from our pain. I think this is what leads us to be preyed upon by healers. And when a whole industry presents themselves itself as white-coat scientists, we’re too often persuaded to relinquish our judgment in their care. (This yearning manifests itself in many forms. )
Don, you mentioned your disillusionment with a meditation teacher. My mental unraveling of harmful therapy was similar to one tear eventually dissembling an entire garment as I got increasingly deeper into what happened.
I see so many problems in the therapy model from the power imbalance to pathologizing, to the rote, reductionist life lessons it imparts. I could wrote a whole essay on “defending my boundaries.” I think therapy has seasoned our culture with an impersonal structure, label-mindset victim mentality that takes us backwards. Don’t get me started on the cult of personality.
So I appreciate Don’s break from that paradigm, because though teachers can’t come with guarantee on the label, it seems to get away from the purchased parent affect.
I have a rare, chronic neuromuscular disorder that repeatedly was diagnosed, and I’ve visited and dumped many doctors. I hoped and was disappointed. Yet these failures had none of the resonance that failed therapy did. I think an emphasis on a skill, a training, with no high-blown promises or core manipulation is a more promising path.
(I hope to give our newly plowed ground more attention after I return from my big event this evening.)
donsalmon, thanks so coming to this blog. Some NY Times links are from others here hoping to bring new voices to the discussion, so you might have read a post from someone else here. I haven’t personally responded to the sadism article.
This discussion contains many opinions, of course, but I can “breathe easy” reading your website. Its techniques would feel useful and respectful without the power dynamic which I feel taints many psychotherapy relationships.
Admittedly I have a superficial knowledge of CBT I speculate I might have been a poor candidate –it might have fueled a ruminating person’s ruminating. Skills and self-care to face difficulties with calmness sounds more all-purpose, and I’ve developed a version of that on my own.
I (unscientifically) think most people act destructively out of fear. I also think social hierarchy is central distress in many lives. An eavesdrop on any workplace hangout around lunch time offers many expressions of powerlessness.
I was a naive-for-my-age, nerdy woman who lacked the necessary political skills, presence and savvy for my world. While I’m uncertain therapy could have been a short-cut time and experience, I know the parental, pity-stoking, kangaroo pouch affect was poor guidance.
I wrote this blog to provoke a discussion of paradigm. If my therapists had dispensed with the omniscient pretenses, dissuaded they weren’t my aspiring parent or shaman, not taken me as a disordered lab rat, it would have been a much better start.
Thanks so much for hearing and comprehending.
* My therapist literally scoffing at David Burns “I don’t BUY that model,” happened years ago. I instinctively considered Feeling Good a better plan than woe and whining and feel rather prescient now.
Hi Dis:
I didn’t see how to reply to your latest post (talking about misdiagnoses from many doctors, and how that never had the “resonance” – nice word! – that failed therapy did.)
Well, how about I make myself open to a “test”. I’m going to make a suggestion – this is exactly what I’d do if I met you in a session (though of course, I haven’t done any sessions for 7 years, and only saw about 1/2 dozen people since getting my degree – 2 official “therapy” patients – who started out as meditation students; and 4 or 5 pro bono folks who were applying for disability).
so – my suggestion is simple – and forgive me, I imagine after all these years, you’ve probably tried all these things, but we might have found a way to describe them a bit differently. In fact, that’s not right. I should ask you before even making a suggestion – have you tried things like mindfulness, heart centering, different forms of attention, etc?
And if not, you might be thinking, “I have a physical condition, those are psychological techniques, why would I want to try them?” If so, you might enjoy reading our “brain pages”, especially the ones on epigenetics, neuroplasticity and placebo.
I just love this stuff – I wish everybody knew about it. I know I’ve had incredibly bad back pain and tooth pain at times (fortunately, not for extended periods, but boy was it bad when they happened) and was truly amazed at how powerful mindfulness was. 9 medical doctors have literally done nothing for my hypertension; lifestyle changes, and especially breathing and aerobics, have done wonders (interestingly – i digress here – food and supplements have had no effect).
Every week, almost every day in fact, I discover new things about the power of mind/heart/spirit in regard to the body.
So this might be sort of a cool experiment – here I am, a psychologist – and yes, an ex-therapist – offering advice. I’m open to getting feedback on any power dynamics I inappropriately bring into it. This might be an opportunity to explore more directly the issues you’ve been reflecting on for so many years (hmmm, wait a minute, I’m steeling myself for the onslaught – NOT! Just kidding:>))
Looking forward to it. thanks again for your efforts here.
Don writes ‘If so, you might enjoy reading our “brain pages”, especially the ones on epigenetics, neuroplasticity and placebo.’
I would just mention two minor problems here.
1. It’s hard to get to the epigenetics and neuroplasticity pages, because if you go to the index and click on these words, this takes you to the placebo page instead.
2. I finally found my way to the epigenetics page, and I notice that you use this word in the way it was sometimes used thirty years ago, meaning the control of gene expression by other cellular events. The meaning of the word has since changed, and it now refers to modifications of the DNA itself that do not involve a change in the nucleotide sequence (e.g. DNA methylation or histone modification). These affect gene expression without altering the DNA sequence. You are perfectly correct in what you say about how we can change our gene expression by behavioural/mental means, but this does not apply to the DNA methylation and so on. We can’t change these. It’s therefore misleading to use the word epigenetics. It’s hard to find another word, but you could perhaps call the page “Mind over genes” or something like that.
Sorry to nitpick.
Hi swissbrit46: (can I call you “46” for short:?:>))
Thanks for the comments. About the links – we haven’t submitted the site to the search engines yet; there’s many links that don’t work, but thanks for that. It’s on our (ever growing!) list of “kinks”, dead links and many other things to work out before we submit to Google, Yahoo, etc.
As far as epigenetics, I’m familiar with what you’re talking about. (I’m a psychologist, not a biologist, by the way, so I welcome any and all corrections in regard to the literally infinite number of things I know less than nothing about!).
But I’m confused about your specific comment. You say we’re correct in regard to mind/behavior affecting the expression of genes. I don’t see anything we said on the page that contradicts this, or suggests modification of the underlying DNA sequence. (I suspect the real controversy here is in regard to heritability; I have no problem with that, but then I don’t subscribe to materialist beliefs; I’m guessing, if you’re a biologist, you won’t have anything to do with me any more, but perhaps we can leave that point aside)
As far as the use of the term “epigenetics”, we were aware when we put up the page that there’s lots of controversy about it. I’ve followed the controversy on placebo much more closely, over the last 15 years, and you’ll still find lots of people (particularly materialists!) who insist there’s no placebo effect I don’t know the epigenetics controversy as well. But I think the mind/behavior affecting gene expression idea, referred to as epigenetics, is accepted at least by a reasonable minority of folks (and a majority in the psychoneuroimmunology and behavioral health community) that it would be ok. But if you could explain more, we’re going to have a “scholarly discussion” page just for this sort of thing. Almost everything about the brain (and mind!) stirs up incredible amounts of controversy.**
I’d really appreciate it if you could point to any specific places on the page where we make any errors. But I imagine that this site would not be the place to go into detail on this. You’re welcome (in fact, invited) to write me at donsalmon7@gmail.com if you feel like it. Again, I would much appreciate it.
** In fact, one of the most controversial parts of the site, I’m guessing, is going to be the food section. I’ve been trying for a couple of years to figure out some basic understanding of food that everyone can agree on. A few years ago, Michael Pollan’s “eat real food, mostly plants, not too much” was almost universal, then the paleo insanity hit, and now everyone’s warning of the dangers of chick peas! I thought maybe vegetables as “health” could be at least one universal, so I googled “I hate vegetables” and of course, found a site insisting that vegetables are all bad for you.
So I know we’re not going to avoid controversy. But epigenetics? Well, we’ll probably get people saying we’re creationists. What can you do?
remember to breathe:>)))))))))))))))))))))))))
Don, my condition has been tentatively diagnosed as a mitochondrial disorder, on the MD spectrum. Two family members have it. Since it’s medically untreatable except for supplements, I haven’t undergone MRIs etc. to make it official. I have double vision and chronic contractions.
I do daily yoga and have tried much in the body therapy catalog . I began voice study in my 50s, do body rolling etc. My superficial attempts at meditation focus me on the disorder, rather than alleviate it. Relax? Physically impossible. I forgot the discomfort most when I’m involved in life.
Besides yoga, which I wish I began younger, I’m high on Alexander Technique which is about alignment and efficient body mechanics. It’s what actors use to have such relaxed, efficient bodies and also essential to many dancers and (repetitive motion) musicians.
I’ll read more when when I’m off duty tomorrow. Voice study might be my exploration into mindfulness, because it asks for focus, breath, release, etc. I might be a “difficult” case, physically. 🙂
ok i just re-read my post – I should be honest, I do take one diuretic, but it is true that it was a friend, not a doctor, who suggested it. Never had one prescription written by a doctor that was in any way helpful.
And boy, do you want to talk about power dynamics. My first doctor – recommended to me as a holistic specialist – told me, in front of my wife, that her patients never had side effects on the meds she prescribed. I came back a few weeks later with horrible flu like symptoms, and when I reminded her of what she said, she absolutely insisted she never said it.
well, that’s a digression. Just wanted to be honest about the meds.
just read some more on epigenetics. I’m posting here because it actually is, I believe, related to an issue about psychotherapy that may be important but not yet addressed here. In fact, forget about ‘therapy’ and substitute the word “psychology” or even worse, “mind” or worst of all, “consciousness.”
I mentioned earlier (i may as well “out” myself) that I don’t believe in materialism. Dont’ worry, I’m not going to go into parapsychology – yet (that’s telepathy, mind over matter, etc for those not familiar with “parapsychology).
Well, I’ve been interested in mind -body interactions for over 40 years. Back in my teens, when I first became interested in this stuff, it was considered blasphemy (among scientists, that is, not among most people) to even speak of the word “mind” much less even hint that mind might affect body. That was the early 70s.
By the late 1980s, psychoneuroimmunology (PNI) was becoming (sort of) a legit field. In the late 1990s, when I was doing a dissertation on mindfulness meditation and physical pain, there was still enormous resistance, and people were still writing research articles saying mindfulness had no effect on the body, and PNI was nonsense, and then of course, in 2001 a massive article saying placebo was nonsense came out.
Well, if you look at the last century of research, you’ll find a continuing pattern of materialist-oriented scientists saying “This is impossible” and then a decade later someone figures out how it works and the materialists just find something else to complain about.
How does this relate to therapy? Well, nobel prize winning neuroscientist Eric Kandel just wrote a NY Times article in which he mentioned that psychotherapy changes the brain, just as medications do (rather amazing anyone would think this controversial, if you’re a materialist, wouldn’t it be obvious that your brain changes with every thought, feeling and sensation?)
People just feel it’s not “scientific” to talk, or do mindfulness, or focus your attention in different ways (Dr. Les Fehmi has healed people of migraines, severe back pain, asthma and all kinds of physical problems simply by having them change the way they pay attention) and expect to change the brain or body.
Ok i’ve written far too much for today. Hope this stirs up some interesting conversations. And swissbrit46, please do let me know (personally, and not on this site, if it’s more appropriate) where specificically we’ve implied anything about changes in underlying DNA sequence or heritability.
Thanks!
Don – oh yes, psychotherapy definitely ‘changes the brain’. And BAD psychotherapy – and I am referring to that from cruel psychotherapists – changes the brain in horrendous ways. That is WHY my #1 goal in this area is to make a radical change in the ‘system’ so that psychotherapy consumers can be protected. If we protect our food (U.S.D.A.) (at least to some extent, anyway), and other consumer ‘items’ (advertising and the FTC), then we absolutely MUST protect ourselves from horrific therapists. btw – has anyone ever heard of a client committing suicide and/or being hospitalized because of a terrible experience with such a therapist? I would NOT be surprised at all. I know that my experiences with these so-called ‘healers’ really deepened my depression.
Here’s one:
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1555602
“Most suicidal adolescents (>80%) receive some form of mental health treatment. In most cases (>55%), treatment starts prior to onset of suicidal behaviors but fails to prevent these behaviors from occurring.”
Hi Anon:
I assume you’ve read all my posts (all in the last few days). If so, you’ll see I’m more radical than “resharpen”. I don’t just want to protect against bad therapy, I would like to do away with the notion of “therapy’ altogether.
But that doesn’t solve the problem – what’s the best framework for people to learn these extremely powerful (more powerful than drugs in many ways) practices to transform the mind and body?
I’m going to use Disequiliibrium (I wish there was a nick name I could use??:>)) very sincere and quite open description of her physical problems as a jumping off point, inviting everyone to make suggestions.
But I may not have time for a day or two. I have a moment to give a context.
In 1996, during grad school, I got a job through some psychologists to work in 2 offices, one, a physical therapist, the other, a chiropractor, teaching psychological pain management. I was quite enthusiastic about mindfulness meditation at the time – I had had dramatic success in eliminating back pain (my own) and substantially reducing tooth pain (no, it wasn’t a complete cure, I did have a root canal ultimately).
So i thought I would describe what I assume everyone here would see as a relatively benign process, simply teaching a simple practice for focusing attention to reduce physical pain.
I’ve been thinking a lot about it in the last few days. As I said, this site has been delightfully provocative to me. As I imagine what I would write to “Dis” (sorry, that’s hte best nick name I could think of for now), I could see how as the process might deepen, all the potential pitfalls (authority, misuse of hierarchical position, etc etc) could enter into the situation.
I wrote before that I’m willing to be vulnerable and get criticized here. (I already got an absolutely wonderful critique of something we have on our site and Jan and I already decided to change it). This will be tougher. I’m going to talk about emotional issues that come up in any teaching situation.
I taught music for dance for 5 years at Marymount Manhattan College. I worked with dancers, mostly female, who were about 15 to 20 years younger than me, and I was aware of all kinds of ways I had to be very careful to maintain the clearest, most open and honest communication with them. I think I succeeded very well, but I think that taught me a lot – the kind of projections that students can put on their teachers, often much more powerful in an intense situation with music and dance – and hopefully made me more sensitive to the many problems that arise in the therapy world.
So, I’ll write in a day or two about how I might offer suggestions to “Dis” and as I write, I invite readers to send in their critiques, concerns, comments.
I think if we focus on a real life situation it might help ground this. Anon just wrote focusing on the bad effects therapy can ahve on the brain. Absolutely, no doubt. But I think if we just keep making these broad general statements, it’s going to be hard to focus in on not only what’s wrong, but how this amazing power we have to affect each others’ physiology can be harnessed for good use (do you know that neurocardiology researchers have measured an electromagnetic field that extends anywhere from 5 to 15 feet from the body, and our field is continuously affecting those around us; and that when we are talking and our emotions are harmonious, our brain waves begin to move in sync? We mention this on our site (on the meditation page) and I think if we even began to realize how powerful this is, we’d maybe take our focus off drugs AND therapy and find ways to use this in a positive way in education, health care, and – resharpen – maybe even with judges!!
see y’all in a day or so
Don, I very much appreciate your rejection of traditional psychotherapy and search for alternatives. I’ve used body therapies for decades now, more recently added yoga, finding them far more beneficial than any therapy without risk of damaging power relationships. By and large these techniques are presented as “your mileage may vary” and not oversold.
I’m non-famously involved in the arts and appreciate the wisdom it teaches. The best teachers are well aware of mentoring issues including one who told me, “I don’t have that POWER over you.”
While I appreciate your offer to help, I don’t have space to add to a routine that works reasonably well. Mitochondrial disorders are on the muscular dystrophy spectrum.
I arrive at a a screeching halt when one starts talking about electromagnet fields. Is that the same as “Human Energy Fields (HEF’s)? I respectfully offer links to the Rosa experiment but am open to contrary evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa
Hi,
Here’s my offering of a practical way of pinpointing more precisely where problems start in therapy.
I appreciate the intensity of “dis”’s last post (the one in which she linked to a therapy abuse site, which I’m afraid wasn’t findable, by the way). But I’d like to focus on some simple, concrete examples and see if it can help illumine exactly where it is that therapy goes wrong.
I don’t think it’s just the one to one, or even the fact that the two people are in a room and nobody else can see what they’re doing. I started taking music lessons at age 4 and continued through my late 20s. I started teaching private music lessons at age 15 and continued till I was 38. And although I never experienced anything problematic (and hopefully my students didn’t either!) I can tell you there were emotionally problematic music teachers I knew of and all the grievance reporting mechanisms in the world wouldn’t have helped. Video tape the sessions? Well, what about at the end, or in between sessions, when the videorecorder is off?
But still, I think such problems are fairly uncommon – maybe even rare – in the private music lesson world. I think it’s something about how “therapy” is thought of. So let’s see if we can pinpoint it.
Here’s a specific situation. I began teaching psychological pain management in 1996, while I was in grad school. I was offered the job by a psychologist who worked with a physical therapist in Brooklyn and a chiropractor in the Bronx. Let’s pretend that Dis came to the clinic and was interested enough that she signed up for 10 pain management sessions with me. I don’t know more than a few details so I’ll just make something up – say she was experiencing severe lower back pain.
I was excited about mindfulness at the time; in fact, I had used it successfully myself for back and tooth pain, and enjoyed sharing it with other people. I was paid $20 an hour for those sessions (grad student rates:>), which I did on several days a week, usually 3 or 4 sessions a day (I’m giving you specifics so y’all realize I was not making a fortune off of this).
So what might a session be like? Well, I wasn’t incorporating any “deep psychological work” so I usually didn’t take a detailed personal history. I would take a detailed history of the pain symptoms, and then begin by explaining that “psychological” pain management had nothing to do with the idea that “it’s all in your head”.
“The pain is real” is the way I’d start out. And giving a very basic (apologies to the neurobiologist and others in the field who are reading these postings and know more than I do about the brain) explanation of how the brain interprets – and most important, adds to – our pain experience. I explain that the mindfulness and other exercises we’ll do can affect the pain in two ways – it leaves the physiological pain response the same, but changes the way the brain interprets the pain messages; and, if the work goes really well – the brain can actually change the physiological response as well. Either way, it’s possible for the experienced pain.
I don’t recall if I said this at the time, but thinking about concerns on this site, I would be happy to make clear that nothing I’m teaching is esoteric; and in fact, anyone can learn about these same practices for free, as they were available in plenty of books at the time, and now are available all over the net. I also would have been perfectly happy to acknowledge that there was certainly nothing in my psych training that made me particularly qualified to teach this. My qualifications were that, at the time, I had practiced these techniques for over 20 years (now it’s nearly 40 years). My aim is to make the person independent of me – that is, within 4 to 8 sessions, they would understand the principles of psych pain management enough and have learned the practices well enough that they could not only do them on their own, but teach someone else the practices.
Ok, that’s enough for now. Does anybody see anything problematic in that relationship? I’m going to follow up with a post on using cognitive-behavioral techniques for pain management. This brings in the emotional side of things, and this, I think, will help us all pinpoint where the potential problems in a therapeutic relationship might arise.
But again, first, I’d like to ask – do you see anything problematic – or even potentially problematic – in what I described? I’ll add that prior to having a job doing those practices, I had over the years shared these practices with friends who were in pain in an informal way. So I might also ask – does anybody think there’s something wrong with me doing this as a paid employee but thinks it was ok for me to teach friends for free?
Oh, a response to Dis’s question about human energy fields? No, it’s not anything “occult” or esoteric and has nothing to do with the Rosa experiment. It’s ordinary physical electro-magnetism. See http://www.heartmath.org I haven’t seen any conflicting evidence in this regard. Those “subtle energies” alluded to in therapeutic touch and similar fields (Reiki, for example) are not, as far as I know, confirmed by any mainstream science and again, no, what we refer to on the site has nothing to do with that.
Don, Don, Don. We seem to be having the same conversation, over and over again. I have tried to show you, in explicit detail, the terrible things I and others have endured from really bad therapists. I have clearly stated that IT DIDN’T MATTER WHAT MODE OF THERAPY, WHAT TECHNIQUE, etc., etc. that the therapist used. When a bad therapist practiced, what GOVERNED was that particular therapist’s personality and/or the therapists’ own ‘needs’ that they felt desperate to fulfill at all cost (no matter how many dead bodies they left in their wake).
This includes those that used techniques in the same mode as what you are describing, or ANY mode.You were kind enough to begin by telling us what YOU did in a session: “So what might a session be like?” you say. Try to understand what I am about to tell you because it is VITAL to the purpose of this blog: THAT IS HOW YOU OPERATE. THAT IS NOT HOW OTHERS MIGHT OPERATE. Yes, you tell how us you are kind to the client, thoughtful, careful, etc. Very good. But I will repeat to you, once again, that just because you teach someone the techniques YOU use, doesn’t mean that they will use them on clients in a kind, respectful way. For example, I can quite easily picture therapists who have tremendous anger problems which they take out on their clients, use your techniques and saying something to the clients like “And you think YOU have pain?! That’s NOTHING like what I’ve gone through.” Or therapists who are narcissists, if told by a client that techniques other than the one the therapist was using were very powerful, then telling the client that they ‘know nothing’; that ‘I (the therapist) is THE expert.
Once again, you cannot, by any means at all, guarantee that all therapists who use the techniques you support and use will treat clients the decent way that you do. This is NOT possible. In your message you delve into having been taught by music teachers where there are only ‘2 of you’ together in the room. You felt that just having 2 alone in the room ‘didn’t matter’. Well, I strongly disagree with you.
Other than private therapy, I can think of absolutely NO other profession where the professional is ALWAYS alone with a client. We lawyers are seen by our receptionists, secretaries, & in court by endless numbers of Judges and other lawyers. Of course some lawyers work just one-on-one, by doing wills, etc., but this is NOT the norm at all. The same with doctors, dentists, nurses and many others. When I worked at the state agency dealing with professional licensing, I can tell you that COUNTLESS doctors, lawyers, nurses, etc. were turned in by: their own employees or fellow workers who SAW them at work, doing unethical things.
The majority of therapists I saw never even had a receptionist. There was NO ONE to support the client who reported that the therapist was drunk, or out of it on drugs; or heard the therapist scream at the client so loudly that even the receptionist could hear it every session through the wall. And yes, there are many therapists who do these things.
There are very troubled individuals attracted to this field at least in part because they see that NO ONE but the client will observe them. This may be an attraction on the ‘subconscious’ level – but it is an attraction nonetheless. When I worked in licensing, there was case after case of psychiatrists and therapists, who, when confronted with allegations of unethical conduct, including sex with clients, would merely say ‘that never happened’. ‘That woman/man is very mentally ill with a diagnosis of blank and blank, and has always, unfortunately (sigh) had quite a fantasy life/very paranoid’. It was always the client said vs. what the therapist said. WITH NO OTHER PROOF – so guess who always won their case???
You wrote: “I can tell you there were emotionally problematic music teachers I knew of and all the grievance reporting mechanisms in the world wouldn’t have helped. Video tape the sessions? Well, what about at the end, or in between sessions, when the videorecorder is off? ”
First of all, music teachers hold no license given by a governmental agency which enables them to teach music. Second, a person goes to a music teacher for far different reasons than when he/she goes to a therapist. A client goes to a therapist usually because he is in Deep emotional pain, and desperately wants help. Plus, as Diseq. stressed in her last message, our culture always says: ‘Oh, you are distressed? GET THEE TO A THERAPIST’. Therefore, a person has a lot riding when he sees a therapist, plus he is told that is the ONLY solution for his pain. So when he goes, and the therapist treats him like dirt – it HURTS LIKE HELL, and the client is thrown into some of the worst depression possible. I know – I have been there, time after time. Thankfully, I haven’t gone in years, and have found far healthier ways to get help.
as for Your dismissal of the videotaping as ‘not working’ – I completely disagree with this. First of all, it would not be the therapist who would turn the machine off – it would be programmed by the computer or supervisor – and the machine could easily stay on way after a session is scheduled to end, and/or between sessions.
You also explained: “I’m not entirely against government regulation and grievance mechanisms, but I think a community of mutuality and cooperation and trust is a far more essential and more powerful means of lessening or maybe even ridding us of such problems.” WHAT community?? A community of egotistical, harmful therapists? I do NOT, for one minute trust therapists to ‘govern’ themselves. Yes, it would be wonderful if such a community as the one you suggest exists – but for now it doesn’t. And we have to deal with reality, here and now. Therapists are ruining peoples’ lives everyday – and we must find ways to change that profession for the better NOW. What I have already suggested in my messages would be a great start.
I want to close this with two points. One is that this blog, shown by the messages on it, has been a great way for those of us harmed by therapy and/or therapists to finally give voice to our horrible experiences, to an audience which is supportive to what we have been through. Once again, PUT YOURSELF IN MY SHOES or those of others on this blog. It doesn’t appear that YOU yourself have had myriad experiences with bad therapists, but I and others have. Please show some compassion and understanding of the specifics of what we have gone through. Your therapies may truly be wonderful IF done in the right hands- but I, at least, don’t feel that that alone can assuage the deep pain of what I have gone through.
Also, thanks for reading through this – to everyone. And, to Don, this is the last time I will probably be responding to your messages. If you can’t show some understanding of what I, and some others, are trying to say, there is no point. I am an extremely busy person, and have now picked up the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare as another specialty. Studying this has shown me that therapists will get even MORE business, and the bad ones will be hurting even more people. I would much rather spend my time working on a consumers’ mental health movement that would realistically help the public.
A key difference between teacher-student relationships and therapist-client relationships is that teachers are offering an honest professional service — knowledge or skill in a particular area of expertise — while therapists often claim that what they are offering is the relationship itself, which is a paradoxical artificial, asymmetical, power-imbalanced, often dehumanizing form of emotional prostitution. There is a profound difference between paying for instruction and paying for a relationship/love/connection; the latter is inherently contradictory, like an oxymoron, and can have the opposite effect (such as making a person feel worse for feeling like they have to pay for an artificial relationship).
Another difference lies in the degree of honesty and transparency about what’s taking place, what’s known and unknown, what results can be expected/what knowledge will be covered, etc. Teachers might present a syllabus or lesson plan or goals explaining what will be taught, and there may be some kind of consensus on when the goal is reached, e.g., the book has been covered, a test has been passed, a song can now be played, an exercise can now be completed, one knows how to sit and breath in meditation, etc. With therapy, the therapist often leads the client on a directionless exploration without sharing their thoughts on the process, what they’re doing, what they know and don’t know, what the expected outcome might be, what knowledge/information their approach is based on, what valid evidence there is for their approach given the particulars of the client’s situation, what side-effects or harm may result from their approach, what the efficacy rate for their approach is, what the client is actually paying for, how the therapist has dealt with similar problems in his/her own life, etc.
It’s a common stereotype that shrinks are crazy, but that comes from somewhere … Many do in fact have serious emotional/psychological issues in their own lives. The fact that they try to cover this up and hide it (or lack self-awareness about it) while “counseling” others on the very issues they’re clueless about in their own lives is a serious problem. This does not come up in the same way in teaching unless one is teaching something about which one is ignorant, like someone who can’t do basic addition and subtraction trying to teach math.
I could go on . . . I’ve also said more about this above . . .
One thing I completely agree with, though, is the value of communities, friendships, and other forms of mutual relationships and support systems that don’t come with the asymmetrical structures and set-up that create opportunities for an authority-figure to access, expose, and exploit a person’s core vulnerabilities for its own sake and then send a bill. If things go awry in teaching, the teacher may hurt a student’s confidence in a particular area of competency. If things go awry in therapy, the therapist may hurt a client’s core conception of self and outside relationships. That is far too precious to put in the hands of an immature industry with misaligned incentives.
thank you Anon. You clearly expressed what many of us feel.
Hi to anon and dis:
Ok, I apologize. I thought i was making an honest effort at illustrating something benign, but I see I failed. I’m sorry.
Is it still possible to leave dis out of it altogether and use a real life situation? Or am I simply the bad guy no matter what I say?
I’ll try and offer the same kind of situation, which is dramatically different from everything anon talked about. I’ll refer back to a man I worked with (notice – “worked with”, not “had a relationship with”) back in 1996. Let’s call him “Jon.”
Jon slipped on the ice walking toward his home in 1981. For 15 years, he had unrelenting back pain (which is the situation I “made up” in my previous letter, but is the actual situation I had with Jon back in 1996).
When he walked into the clinic in the Bronx, I didn’t offer him a “relationship”, but rather, explained in great detail what our program was, laid out an 8 week plan, which he was invited to criticize, to examine, to question, not just the first session, but every session. At every step of the way, he was informed explicitly that he was in control, and in fact, there would be far more progress to the extent my role became gradually extinct. That is, I was essentially a teacher (just as I had taught piano, guitar, percussion, theory or composition lessons through the 70s and 80s) and the goal, I have always believed, of a good teacher is to guide the student toward being his/her own teacher, right from the start. And for there to be no longer any teacher, the sooner the better.
No “emotional” games, nothing implied, everything up front, and all questions – in every session – welcomed. In fact if questions aren’t voiced or expressed, they’re encouraged. As I think I said in a previous letter, there were great efforts to ensure people didn’t look up to me as an “authority”. They were made aware there were books and websites (even back in the ancient days of the 90s) that taught these things and they could learn them for free if they wanted. I offered my qualifications simply as someone who had practiced them for over 20 years and could offer some details that might be harder to get from books, sites, CDs, etc on their own.
Toward the end of the 2nd session, Jon looked up with tears streaming down his cheeks. He had been on many pain medications and had had a number of surgeries, but had never in the previous 15 years had one completely pain free moment. He said for several minutes during prior to speaking, he could not feel any pain. This was during a period I was playing some music I had composed specifically for pain relief.
During that year, numerous other people had similar experiences. One woman who had come in for knee pain happened to mention that she had not used her inhaler for several months as a result of breathing exercises she learned. She had used it for several years an average of 4 or 5 times a day. Others said that not only had there been dramatic reductions in pain, and side benefits like cure of insomnia. one woman with multiple sclerosis had not been able to write her name for 3 years. I taught her a warm up exercise I had learned for playing the piano, and incorporated some mindfulness practices, and she started writing again.
I never called what I did “therapy”. I insisted to the 2 people I saw “formally” in the 2000s that I was not doing therapy. I don’t like the word and never have. That whole psychoanalytic game of saying “the relationship heals’ always had seemed to me rife with the potential for power issues, which is only one of many reasons why I avoided it.
I hope that goes someway toward answering your concerns, Dis. I didn’t mean to disrespect you in any way, and I actually had – foolishly, perhaps insensitively – meant simply to offer something of my experience and my own very strong objection to therapy.
Finally, the interesting thing is that I seem to be more radically objecting to therapy than what I find here. People here want to set up some kind of overseeing process but within the world of therapy. I don’t think the things you’re talking about – which really refer to psychoanalytic and psychodynamic therapy – are salvageable. Cognitive behavioral therapists have been trying for decades to get out of the so many of the pitfalls in therapy and people still relate to and do therapy the same way.
CBT folks have offered an educational process which is completely open; they have said it’s not about the relationship it’s what you learn and what you apply to it. Dave burns has a form his patients – and everyone he trains uses the same forms – fill out at the end of EVERY session, which gives detailed feedback to the therapist. What worked, what didn’t work, complaints, etc. That form is available to anybody who is in an “overseeing’ position, and if the form is not filled out, or if there is any slightest hint that there is some kind of pressure on the patient not to be honest, there are supervisors that are part of Burns’ clinic and his whole approach to therapy that are available to complain to. The whole process – the syllabus, if you will – is open, and laid out. In fact, rather unlike the usual teacher student relationship, it is not “handed down’ by the therapist/teacher, rather, it is created together with the student – or patient, if you like, but then you’re back in the world of mental health which is not the place I think this process should be.
The student – I prefer that term; when I was in my 20s and 30s, I worked with people from age 5 to 75 so there was no question of one person always being the socalled ‘older wiser” person – the student is seen as a complete equal, as in the pain education sessions I’ve described. I’m no better or wiser than my student. I happen to have developed a skill over 20 years of daily practice (that was then; now it’s about 36+ years of daily practice) which I enjoy sharing with anybody who is interested.
I tried some 8 or 9 years ago to do this and not call it therapy but I could see from the several people I saw that they kept “making it” therapy. Since I saw those silly issues that come up when people think they’re in something called “therapy” i decided in 2006 I never wanted to even get close to creating a situation where people thought I was a therapist because of all the issues that come up that have been so well described on this site.
I never went into the grad program wanting to be a therapist; in fact, I didn’t even want to be a psychologist. i had some work I wanted to do, research wise, that I had become deeply involved in back in the early 1970s. I had put off, desperately, any idea of being involved with academic psych for 20 years, but finally realized that for what I wanted to do, I needed the degree. Part of grad school was learning “therapy” so I had to do it. When I graduated in 1999, I assidiously avoided any situation where i had to do “therapy”. it was ONLY because 2 people aproached me that I agreed to do therapy and charged the most minimal fee (the first person was charged $20 a session for the 2 years I was her teacher – I still refuse to call it “therapy”) and the other person I taught for 3 months, but since she couldn’t understand what it wasn’t therapy, and had been in therapy for years and brought those assumptions with her, I’m afraid I wasn’t successful in turning it into a simple, educational process that was about teaching skills and most emphatically NOT about me being an expert and developing some kind of abstract “relationship” that was suupposed to be “curative.”
So I don’t know if I’ve succeeded in apologizing or explaining how different anything I’ve done is from what is described here as therapy. Part of what we’re wanting to do on our site is to make available what has been often seen as some things, like CBT, that many people still seem to think have to be offered within a particular kind of “therapy” situation.
My preference is for something else to replace “therapy” altogether. I think that the poison of psychoanalysis has so completley infiltrated the world of therapy, and led to all the things people criticize here, that the word “therapy” is doomed. No way to create overseeing or to police the infinite problems it can raise. Find some other way to teach these skills, and in fact as I said, Jon Kabat Zinn has created a model – better than Burns’ model, ultimately, I think -in his 8 week group program. The “syllabus” is on the net for everyone to see, everyone knows what they’re getting into, and it’s in use in over 200 venues around the world and I for one have not heard of any power issues or games or problems arising from it. That’s the model we were following at the “Center for Meditation and Healing” at New York Presbyterian Hospital during hte brief time I was part of it, and that’s one of the models I’d suggest to people who want to use the techniques on our site. or anything anyone wants to create themselves if they like any of those techniques. But this paragraph is meant to explain why my objections seem to me to be more radical than some that are offered here. I don’t think that “therapy” is redeemable. Get rid of the notion and figure out something else altogether.
I hope that makes it a little clearer, what I intended to do with the description of the pain management teaching I did back in 1996. Very sorry for any way I failed to convey what I meant.
Don, I decided to be blunt rather than polite. Wasn’t it presumptuous to propose using me and my chronic condition as a jumping up point for your techniques? Were you insinuating I know nothing about self-care my pain is the consequence of not having it together emotionally? You have it together emotionally?
I didn’t ask for your help. I have no desire to be your demonstration subject. I have my own “assignments” and no receptivity to yours. You know nothing about my condition, the modalities I’ve tried, my training, my discipline, the dozens of workshops I’ve taken, what I’ve researched. You know more than the Muscular Dystrophy and Mitochondrial information sources? You know nothing about those of us with chronic conditions, the peace and balance we must find between searching and accepting.
I mentioned my condition as an unrelated illustration. I rarely talk about it. DO NOT mention it again. It’s not your territory.
OK, Don. Truth or dare? Have I demonstrated potential power issues in your practice?
And thank you, resharpen, for voicing many important concerns, as well, such as how the unsupervised, closed-door privacy affects the therapy industry — drawing in ‘professionals’ who can’t handle criticism, and giving them unfettered opportunity to satisfy their needs for power/control/feeling superior and to exploit their clients.
Don, I appreciate you exploring paradigms outside the Freudian-descended framework, which correspondents here agree fraught with peril.
As you see, we don’t speak with one voice or background. I don’t see the psychotherapy juggernaut disappearing soon, and feel the more paradigm critique, client feedback, accountability and transparency, the better. Likewise I prefer “therapy” as teaching, transmitting accessible skills as opposed to a secret ceremony granting the secrets of the oracle or something.
There invariably are roadway hazards–promising and overpromising for one– when one person purports to “treat” another. I truly think some people will happier moving toward more physicality, or being less in their heads and more in their lives.
Our personal miscommunication when you presumed to use my discomfort as your demonstration case is itself a –demonstration case– of what happens when someone views himself a healer. It actually is a very good example of the hazards of therapy.
There is a host of challenges for those with chronic disorders, and other’s agendas can cloud these. Some ultimately need to keep the “consultants” at bay, or chose them selectively, to find a forge a life balance.
Don, as you’ll see upthread, our three-year discussion has been one about damage, perspective, recovery, paradigm, science and pseudo-science, etc. I speculate all of us would be the last to seek yours or similar services and we’re particularly jaundiced about testimonials.
I’m saying, what I hope is your enthusiasm now comes across as near-huckerism to me. You’ve stated your case and offered links, so, could you kindly stop selling?
Hi,
Let me make sure I understand hat you’re asking. would you prefer I don’t write to this blog at all? If so, I’ll stop.
Or do you not want me to mention anything about our website? Is so, that’s fine too. And I won’t mention anything else I’ve written on the web either, if that’s what you would prefer.
I’m not sure what else I’ve been saying that might be construed as “selling.”
I thought from what you initially said you were interested in hearing the viewpoint of an “insider”. But if there’s nothing I can contribute to this conversation, that’s fine too.
Just let me know. (For the record, btw, I don’t consider myself a healer and I thought I made that clear. my reason for going into psychology was entirely about research. I was required to engage in “therapy” as part of my training but I haven’t done any “therapy” since graduating in 1999 – though I did have 3 mindfulness students. But i understand how in the context of this conversation it could be misunderstood. )
In response to resharpen’s question and comment (“has anyone ever heard of a client committing suicide and/or being hospitalized because of a terrible experience with such a therapist? I would NOT be surprised at all. I know that my experiences with these so-called ‘healers’ really deepened my depression.):
I (fortunately) did not commit suicide in response to therapy, but it did provoke suicidal thoughts and urges (e.g., the urge to run my car into a telephone pole) that weren’t there before therapy. It was really scary. When I told the therapist how I was getting worse, she said,”My clients’ pain is precious to me,” which sounds pretty sick to me.
Also, I have read accounts of people being hospitalized in response to therapy.
Mary – so sorry for what you went through! And that stupid response from your therapist is beyond Sick! it sounds like a bizarre greeting of sorts from a Hallmark card! And what the H does it MEAN anyway?? She absolutely should have asked you about what you did re: attempted suicide – and LISTENED.
It so reminded me – are clients of therapists put on this earth to TELL THE THERAPISTS HOW TO DO THEIR JOBS???? I NEVER paid a therapist, or anyone else for that matter, to tell them how to treat me properly. That is nuts. We must make them do their JOB.
The two specific suicides I know about Anne France, author of Consuming Psychotherapy and the patient in the well-publicized Margaret Bean Bayog case, can’t definitively be attributed to the therapy, of course. I’m sure we don’t have to go far to find examples of wrecked families (false memory syndrome) and lives. I didn’t consider myself depression-prone prior to therapy, but certainly was after. I questioned my sanity. While I was in battle with my contemptuous therapist I told him I was suicidal in attempt to get him to cease and desist his bullying. That report barely fazed him. (*I wasn’t. Never have been.)
When I lean into the depression about the exploitation now, I mentally yank myself out of the frame. Therapists created that morass, and I don’t want to live in that world.
Resharpen,
I don’t think I had told told her at that point that I was having suicidal thoughts — I don’t recall if I was at that point yet or not, but I definitely was getting worse than when I started therapy with her. But her response only contributed to my getting worse still. There were other similar things before that — e.g., when I said I was somewhat shy, she said, “You gave up your power;” when I mentioned that a co-worker said something that was inappropriately intimate for the workplace, she said I had a problem with intimacy; when on an earlier occasion I tried to tell her that I was getting worse, she said that that was because I was facing painful things about myself. Once when I tried to ask her a question, she said, “Are you sure you’re not second guessing me?” and another time, “Do you realize you’re asking me to give up my control?” At some point, she said that I couldn’t accept nurturance from a woman. Another time she said transference had occurred without her intending it to.
Unfortunately, I started seeing her on the rebound from another negative therapy experience — when I told the previous therapist I was quitting, she said, “You expect too much. That’s your problem.” (She had previously told me that I might not like the therapy process. The context was that when I asked her what therapy was, she said, “You’re the star,” and I think I gasped — because I was going to therapy in large part because I had difficulty coping with personal attention, which I was getting a lot of because I was a member of a vastly underrepresented minority in the field I worked in.)
I tried to be more selective in choosing another therapist after I finally quit her (the second therapist), but even though she (the third one) assured me she let her patients know what she was doing, she only did it for a short time, then got into things like saying, “I have my reasons,” or even laughing at me, when I asked questions, or questioned what she was doing, or brought up things that were important to me. It became kind of a cat and mouse thing.
But harm from therapy isn’t limited to becoming suicidal or being hospitalized. It also includes (as has been my experience) having intrusive thoughts of therapists, that can interfere with sleep, work, and other everyday activities, even many years later. And just the waste of time and money is a loss.
BTW, I tried therapy a few more times (every few years for a while) after quitting these three. Some therapists actually helped me a little (by helped here, I mean in coping with the intrusive thoughts of therapists, and giving me a little hope, not the original problems I went to therapy for), but fortunately, I became better at quitting when they seemed likely to do more harm than good.
I have the same intrusive thoughts. The therapists creating another parent/child relationship where they were the absolute authorities and I their submissive devotee was a recipe for disaster. While I had this inclination, the therapists had a large role in feeding the shared delusion.
Speaking of false memories from therapy, Elizabeth Loftus just gave a TED talk on the fiction of memory: http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_loftus_the_fiction_of_memory.html
It strikes me as one of the most appalling aspects of therapy that it causes so many clients to “remember” their experiences from the past as being so much worse and more damaging than they “realized” before therapy. That is depressing. At the same time, if we’re to believe any of the positive psychology research, it is gratitude, warm memories of the past, and warm relationships that are the source of happiness.
There’s no valid empirical support for the methods of therapy that go hunting for problems with the past/childhood family relationships or the model of memory that it relies on. There’s no valid support for the idea that one must expose pain and feel worse before one feels better; that’s a scam artist gaslighting trick that enables them to get away with hurting people and creating dependencies. The therapy industry’s flagrant ignoring of these things can create problems and result in much harm.
I think it’s worth the effort for therapy survivors to question/unlearn the false pathologizing beliefs/mindsets/ways of viewing the world, ourselves, and relationships that we acquired from therapy.
Diseq,
Sounds like your intrusive thoughts are different from mine. Mine are largely visual and physical, seeing the therapist’s face, having a sense of intrusion or invasion, of being watched, of being a toy or an object, a sense of claustrophobia, or of physical aversion; or the feeling of shock I so often experienced when things didn’t make sense in therapy. I don’t see mine as a parent/child type relationship where they were the absolute authority and I was their submissive devotee. (That’s not the type of relationship I had with my parents.) With me, it’s more a dominance than an authoritarian thing; some of the intrusive thoughts are like the put-downs or impositions of physical dominance from older siblings, or “I’ll build myself up by building you down” type things. Still, my difficulties in therapy did reflect my tendencies to be afraid of people, especially aggressive or intrusive ones, and my proneness to shame, to feeling that I had no right to be competent, my own person, or different – but that’s a big part of what I went to therapy for help with, and that therapy offered no help with.
The obsessive thoughts are more of trying to say things like, “No, that is not me, that is your fantasy of me,” or “I deserve informed consent, just because every client deserves informed consent,” or “That is your agenda, it does not contribute to helping me,” or “That doesn’t make sense to me,” or “I’m not here to be an object of your interest,” or “You don’t have a right to understand me any old way you choose just because you choose” – the things I was not competent at saying in therapy. (I do seem to be getting better at them in my obsessive thoughts, however.)
Anon, I agree that memory is invariably a selective distortion in that our minds only select moments of the movie and replay. Then I don’t recall any therapist stoking happy memories or accomplishments, only focused recollection of sadness wounding. While yes, while I had little family warmth, I was a child who found sanctuary in many interests, in friendships, and a developing merry irony about life all of which have remained resources sense.
I ran across something about the specious idea that memory recollection acts as some kind of release valve. I found the opposite to the true, particularly when memories is provoked in such a biased way.
Mary, I think my intrusive thoughts had/have many of your ingredients, particularly that I had no right to be competent–to join the adulthood club as a full-fledged member. I certainly felt intimidation, diminishing.
As I tried to say above, I felt I had no credibility or voice in the matter, and got into a mental circle about my viewpoint. That can easily happen in a reality where no means yes, as it did with my therapist. He interpreted my desire to leave as being on the verge of a brilliant breakthrough.
I also felt the great loss of an delusion–that out there was the magic rescuer with the magic abilities to be my guide through life. I had to realize that contrary to the marketing, the therapist was anything but altruistic and there for my benefit.
I still remember the therapists’ stern and mocking voices, but that isn’t the intrusion. There were so many mixed messages, maybe the thought invasion is more of a very complicated sorting out. And then the more I read about the therapy culture in general, the more I disagreed with it, and saw it as the arrogant extension of what I received personally from my therapists.
I read the Kandel piece. Just want to point out that although therapy — like any human interaction or event — can change the brain, that doesn’t imply that it changes the brain in good/positive ways. It may well change the brain in ways that are contrary to long-term well-being. Until therapists can reliably pinpoint what methodologies or what types of interactions change the brain in what ways (both short-term and long-term), it’s irresponsible for them to go on messing with people’s minds under the misleading, dishonest cloak of ‘healthcare.’
I’m wiped out from a demanding few days in real life (which ultimately went wonderfully) so can’t dig in to Don’s contributions yet.
But here are some directions of our discussion.
. A need for professionals to understand therapy’s potential harm beyond the obvious transgressions such as intimacy with a clients. The granddaddy American Psychologist published a gee-whiz topic issue in 2010 focusing on harm, which impressed me they considered negative outcome a cutting edge idea.
. A need for professionals to get their noses out of theory and arrogance and operate first out of human courtesy and common sense.
. A need for REAL informed consent and grievance mechanisms. I’m particularly pessimistic about the latter when the foxes guard the chicken coupe and government regulatory resources are spread increasingly thin. I’ll stretch Anon’s assertion into the hyperbole that consumers have the freedom to buy green cheese from the moon, but let’s not call it science or healthcare.
. A need for modes to relieve distress outside the common authoritarian framework.
Resharpen, I have read, concretely, of some horrible aftereffects following irresponsible therapy. Like everything, it’s impossible to isolate responsibility. The worst cases are clients who have years long intimate relationships with therapists only to be dumped by clinicians who wake up with a sudden attack of professional….ahem…ethics.
When I go toward depression around therapy, I tell myself several things: First, this is what these clowns trained me to do–to ruminate in my despair. Don’t want to do that! I think of a color camera filter –photography is a hobby– and resolve not to view myself through someone else’s distorted lens. The game they played is clear. They were protecting their egos.
It’s a work in progress.
A patient who triumphed over the worst is Ellen Plaisil, whose book
“Therapist,” was recommended by Gary Schoener years ago.
I think it extremely difficult to hold a minority viewpoint. My views have threatened some real life friends in asserting there’s no Life Expert, no Santa. I killed Tinkerbell. People need to believe. Humans have their animal tendency to chase non-conforming dogies back to the herd.
The reward– a skepticism to see through other people’s delusions and performances — has many purposes. Speculating that bad therapy might be more life changing than good, we might be the therapy clients who most got our money’s worth!
Cause I’m in the mood, I’ll link to this wonderful group, again.
http://www.therapyabuse.org/
.
one more response for now, to “Dis’s” comment: . “A need for modes to relieve distress outside the common authoritarian framework”
Amen – this is why Jan and I are doing our website – to make these practices available on a widespread basis outside the common authoritarian framework.
I would also suggest that this is very much what Jon Kabat Zinn was doing in the basement of the University of Massachusetts at Worcestor campus, when he started teaching mindfulness for pain, in 1979. By 1990, I think he had seen over 10,000 people. His requirement was that anyone going through his 8 week program had to have tried all other alternatives – including meds and surgery. He wanted to help people who had no other way of treating the pain.
There’s now, I think, over 200 places around the world where people can learn the mind-body practices that Jon started teaching over 30 years ago. From everything I’ve heard, they are models of non authoritarian teaching, even though they often elicit profound emotional states and create incredibly powerful bonds among the participants.
The research on these programs was somewhat weak when I did my dissertation in 1999. The improvements were slow; even by 2005 or 2006 there were still mixed results. But there has been such an explosion in studies that within the last year or two, I think there’s begun to be widespread consensus that mindfulness and related techniques have incredibly powerful and widespread effects, not just on the central nervous system but the immune, endocrine, autonomic and other systems as well.
Finally, I would refer you again to our “Most important page”, where I think, far far far better than more government regulations – the secret of creating cooperative, non exploitive relationships is described, in terms of “blue zones” – communities where people know and trust each other. My question for Asheville and for you – how to we build these? Environmentalist Bill McKibben says that community-building is the single most important factor in decreasing global warming – seriously, more than any technical, scientific or political solution. I tend to agree. Even if you think that’s nuts, I think you might be able to consider that a community in which people know each other and trust each other is far less likely to spawn abusive therapeutic relationships.
I’m not entirely against government regulation and grievance mechanisms, but I think a community of mutuality and cooperation and trust is a far more essential and more powerful means of lessening or maybe even ridding us of such problems.
And I think it’s possible to create one – or many – such communities.
It just occurred to me (this will be my last comment if you respond saying you don’t want to hear from me any more) that you might be wondering why i’m here if not to ‘sell’ or tout my “healing” abilities.
I’ve been moved to think quite deeply about the whole therapy and in fact, the whole “psychology” enterprise since coming across this site earlier this week.
One of my favorite things in life is to be confronted with a requirement to completely rethink the way I’ve been looking at things – the more it turns my world inside out, the more I find it rewarding.
It’s been some years since I’ve given much thought to the process of therapy, having not been directly involved in it for more than a decade. Thinking about it deeply, pondering and trying to understand and connect with the comments here, has, for me personally, been quite enlightening.
Again, I thought, from your initial response, that it would be helpful to give some of my own reasons for why i’ve chosen to avoid doing therapy and why for over 40 years I had profound doubts about it.
Ok, that’s all. Again, if your response is simply to stop selling, but “hang around”, I’ll do my best. If you’d prefer I leave, then I thank you for provoking some deep thoughts and wish you the best.
Don, as an accidental moderator, generally light handed, I’ll respond indirectly.
As you’ll see scanning the last three year’s conversation, this blog has drawn in a number of people who feel conned and harmed by therapy.
Unraveling the con job can be an enormous undertaking– we have to nullify a former authority figure, added to society’s idealization of therapy’s validity. Some of us felt quite isolated — this is a difficult topic to discuss with real-life friends. You’ll see a lot of recent conversation about science vs. pseudo-science, and among our explorations.My own process began by repealing my therapists’ assertions, then extended to the paradigm that primed me for the abuse.
I appreciate you listening to the conversation and hope you’ll raise some of these issues with your colleagues. The few who’ve famously done that, Tana Dineen, David Smail, etc., found the slogging difficult.
It feels that each of the former clients here to be reading, thinking and finding their own way past a damaging experience. The conversation supported me because we’ve talked as peers, each with our own insights and contributions, no one with the authoritative answers.
I assume most or all here have no intention of returning to therapy.
Until now, I once deleted one therapist’s self-promoting, telling her why. Knowing this crowd, touting your services only will earn you disrespect. eyerolled the “looked up with tears streaming down his cheeks” schtick. (Some advice as a former marketer: don’t talk down to your audience.) We have links above discussing data vs. testimonials.
Your self-promotion and expert air has disrespected and dominated the discussion and diverts from what evolved as the purpose here.
I haven’t directly answered your question. But I hope I’ve explained how I see problem.
yes you have, and I must apologize. If i had been more sensitive to the intent of the blog, I might have said a few words when I first stopped in then waited – in fact, waited quite some time, given the powerful nature of what people are discussing here – and seen what, if anything, it was appropriate for someone in my position to talk about. Thank you again for explaining with such calmness, and I will step back and be quiet for now.
Disequal – thank you! My sentiments exactly. Don – I have re-read your comments in this blog and its ALWAYS the same format. You respond to some of the prior comments (which I thank you for, even if we disagree at times), and then part 2 is ALWAYS about: ‘WHAT I DO” “My Website” “Other ‘therapists’ or modes (or whatever you may call them) that I approve of”. “What I and my wife intend to do/are doing in Asheville. . . “. I do not mean to ‘dis’ you BUT what you are doing is quite similar to what I personally have experienced with many therapists – ultimately, its all about ‘THEM’. They use the practice of therapy, or any discussion of therapy, to ultimately center around THEIR ‘wants’ – whether it is to discuss their OWN problems, to assert that ‘they’ are more powerful than their client, or anyone, that ‘they’ KNOW BEST, etc. NO MATTER WHAT I, OR ANY CLIENT, POINTS OUT TO THEM. They do not look at themselves.
And, for the record, I do not care what you call yourself – a ‘non-therapist’, or a ‘non-healer’, or anything else, or that you ‘do not like therapy’, or whatever you say. You are using a modality to help someone, and WHENEVER someone does this, the person in charge of ‘doing’ the modality ALWAYS has the ability to assert his power over the other, belittle the other, make racist comments, and on and on.
Also, in almost every message of yours – the end is ALWAYS the same, as diseq. has pointed out. You have the perfect mode to help others, and/or you promote the modes or theories of others that can ‘help’ others. Where is your humility? Where is there ANY concession as to the suffering of so many of us on this blog, WITHOUT your ‘promotions’? I did not come on this blog to hear someone tell me that ‘they’ can help me – YOu have barely been in therapy, but I can assure you that SO many therapists have told me and others EXACTLY what you are saying – that ‘they ‘ know best. Please do what a truly good person on this blog does – LISTEN TO US. GIVE US SUPPORT. DON’T TELL US THAT ‘YOUR’ MODALITY IS ‘TRULY POWERFUL’. To me, you are just using a ‘power play’ over us – that you know better than we do, and that is not only b.s., but so cruel. We are AS wise as you are – AS knowing – and even much wiser when it comes to what each of us truly needs.
dear resharpen: you’re right. I was going to step back and keep quiet altogether, but since you said you appreciated my responding to your comments, I just thought I’d add this note. You’re right. I apologize. I’m stepping back for now.
Well, we’ve created a living example of how intentions go awry. Overstepping, misreading is difficult to avoid, even with awareness. And here’s an example where I think everyday language might have more utility than professional jargon. I can’t think of a professional word for “cross purposes.”
The point about testimonials reminded me of this great post:
The Role of Anecdotes in Science-Based Medicine
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-role-of-anecdotes-in-science-based-medicine/
Anon, indeed I thought back to that link and how often we see testimonials used today by advocates of various modalities.
I found such promises more damaging in psychotherapy because my stirred hope increased the therapists’ influence over me. Wishful thinking can create distortion both with the practitioner and client. (Confirmation bias is such a great phrase.)
In contrast, my endocrinologist presents possible solutions with no certainty about outcome –with both of us fully aware that treatment can be trial and error.
Your last comment gets at something that has really bothered me about therapists: So much of what they say seems so black-and-white (most frustratingly, when I say something with qualifications, and they spit back a version that deletes the qualifications). Very rarely (in my experience) do therapists use the word “or,” and very rarely do they express anything that even hints at uncertainty. This is a big part of what makes therapy so often seem like talking into a black hole — or like, “I don’t exist; I’m just a figment of everyone’s imagination,” which is what came to mind when I started feeling suicidal in response to therapy.
Mary, that’s my experience too. I never recall therapists hedging or doubting. They even seemed certain about changes in my external world–forces far beyond their purview. I never recall the slightest hesitancy with answers or interpretations. Therapists always had them. All this fostered shared delusions about the therapists’ power and capacities and precipitated a crisis when I threatened their self-images.
This is in stark contrast to a physician addressing a physical disorder. I’m given information sheets with success rates, cautions, side effects to monitor and/or report. Doctors make it no secret that a regimen change is trial and error, and I’m a partner in monitoring and reporting.
Two items I recently came across give a much more positive vision for therapy than what contributors to this website have experienced. Both are by Eileen Gambrill, a professor of social work at University of California, Berkeley. They are not just about psychotherapy, but about the “helping professions” generally, including psychotherapy, medicine, and the variety of social work interventions.
1. In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqwDAvpuay0, Gambrill discusses such topics as the lack of replication of much research in “interventions,” the prevalence of propagandistic methods in arguing for methods, the lack of focus on what we don’t know, the lack of client input in what is studied, and the “taboo” on discussing harm.
2. In the article (book chapter) Evidence-Based Practice and Policy: Choices Ahead (www.sagepub.com/upm-data/31096_Chapter2.pdf), she discusses various visions of “Evidence-Based Practice,” and the implications of those visions for choice of what to study, what outcomes to look for, and how clients will be involved. A couple of nice quotes:
“In considering the different views and related choices, we should keep in mind ethical obligations described in professional codes of ethics: beneficence, avoiding harm, informed consent, and maximizing autonomy and self-determination.” (pp. 14 – 15)
(Wouldn’t it be nice if therapists always kept these ethical obligations in mind!)
“Perhaps of all the obstacles [to integration of evidentiary, ethical, and application concerns], a preference for authority-based practices and policies is the most challenging. Related indicators include a reluctance to be transparent, inflated claims of effectiveness, and use of the term evidence based to refer to business as usual such as incomplete, unrigorous research reviews … Arrogance (and, I would argue, a disregard for clients’ welfare) is reflected in the prevalence of pseudoscience, fads, and related propaganda tactics in the professional literature and under-estimating our vulnerability to their influence.” (pp. 33 – 34)
(This website provides a wealth of examples of such obstacles.)
I’m so happy to see a skeptic within the professional ranks. One thing popped out immediately in her Youtube talk “claims about harm seem to be a taboo.”
This might be of interest “A Propaganda Index for Reviewing Problem Framing in Articles and Manuscripts” The embedded checklist takes an external program to open:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0019516?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+plosone%2FMentalHealth+%28PLoS+ONE+Alerts%3A+Mental+Health%29#s2
Reading about Gambrill, I chanced upon a smear campaign against her and Monica Pignotti. Apparently Gambrill was among the signatories to Pignoitti’s critique of restraint therapy. http://monicapignotti.wordpress.com/
Someone smearing them even went to the trouble of concocting a bogus invention.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2011/05/408538.shtml
Like TED speaker Diane Benscoter, the anniversary documentaries of the Jonestown tragedy also launched me into a renewed exploration of therapy. This 4-year-old TED TALK was just published on the Huffington Post. Yes, blind adherence to authority in her examples are far more tragic and extreme, but I feel the framework, has strong similarities,”
“The person doing the brainwashing raises uncertainty about the victim’s old beliefs and habits.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-kerr/how-cults-gain-power-over_b_3998553.html
Diane Benscoter’s brief TED talk about her time in the Moonies, follows the article.
Another instance of a good attitude for therapists: At http://www.catholictherapists.com/abortion/post-abortion-help/misdirected-therapy-for-post-abortive-clients.html, the author says (toward the end)
“Undisclosed biases may get in the way of productive therapy that fails to address the goals and best interests of the client. Counterproductive psychotherapy is the result when we fail to disclose our firm biases, thus, failing to provide a proper informed consent from our clients.”
and
” If we as therapists give the impression that we can work with every issue that comes across our path, then we may indeed be delusional about our ability, resulting in diluting our therapeutic abilities. Any misrepresentation of our ability or biases could also get in the way of obtaining a proper informed consent from our client. An improper informed consent is equal to no informed consent. Therefore, psychotherapy could become psychologically injurious to the client, as it was for Jenny. If our own prejudice gets in the way of pursuing the goals of the client (the pursuits of our own agenda for this client), then we as therapists are ethically obliged to seek out consultation and maybe even counseling for ourselves. It may be necessary to refer to another mental health professional if we cannot come to resolve our dilemma.”
I wish all therapists had this attitude, as well as the compassion that the essay shows.
Mary, yes, it would be great if therapists were aware of their abilities and limitations. My endocrinologist is uncertain a new medication I try will help me improve. Changing the quality of a life certainly is more vague and uncertain.
The client-therapist dynamic would be so different if therapists would abandon their certainty, would present themselves as inquisitive as many physicians. I might have entered therapy differently if therapists had undersold their services. Of course, underselling, or being realistic, could drive off clients.
I fervently believe that solving life’s challenges only can be taken so far by talking in a room. And I firmly believe that all that scientific wrapping paper distorts what truly occurs.
Mary – thank you so much. It is great to hear from therapists who Acknowledge that they CANNOT handle every subject under the sun, & that doing so can actually harm clients. Like I’ve said, I have never once heard a therapist tell me that they cannot treat a particular problem – even tho it became very clear that they could not adequately treat mine. another potential problem: what about therapists who are going through terrible things themselves? Can they still treat clients? AND what if their problem is the same one a client of theirs is ALSO going through? I really don’t understand how a therapist going through a divorce, for instance, can treat a client going through a divorce. Any thoughts??
Resharpen’s comment, “I really don’t understand how a therapist going through a divorce, for instance, can treat a client going through a divorce,” reminded me of something I read a while ago on the web discussing just that issue. Unfortunately, I didn’t find it, but in looking came across the article Why Shrinks Have Problems, at http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200909/why-shrinks-have-problems
“So you’ve gotten into therapy because your life is falling apart — and now you have to keep one eye on your therapist just in case his or her life is falling apart, too? Basically, yes. Like it or not, you, the client, are probably carrying the major responsibility for spotting the signs of distress or impairment in your therapist, especially if you’re seeing an independent practitioner. The current president of the California Psychological Association, Steven F. Bucky, Ph.D., puts it this way: “The truth of the matter is that unless someone complains about an impaired therapist, there is no protection for the client.”
The author follows with “tips for protecting yourself from impaired mental health professionals”
Caveat Emptor!
What is passed off as “therapy”, for the whole, is sadly too often damaging and/or impairing beyond all the reasons one seeks therapy out in the first place. My “worst” therapist was an emotional leech. She fed off the emotions she stirred up in me – I could see it with my own eyes. She projected every problem she had on to me. It was more like she was trying to find a kindred spirit and keep that person tied down so she wouldn’t b alone in her own little world. I realize now that she had spun her tight little web – her office – where she was safe from everyday reality. So that had to be my problem as well – it was to a small degree – but it was more that I was working 60-90 hour weeks and many friends had moved on to marry and build families while I took care of my mother. So when she died, I found myself without much of a life and was trying to start all over again. I have had some very painful events in my life (being bullied as a child, ostracized by my peers as a teenager, … I lost my mother, aunt, uncle, and several beloved pets within 4 months time – and then was bullied at work by the new Executive and again ostracized and overworked). Thus, every problem I had must be rooted in pain and getting rid of the pain was the solution. I recognize I have habits, behaviors, and attitudes caused by painful experiences. And, yes, pain could be a catalyst SOMETIMES – but not always. It’s far more complex than that. She was an alcoholic and so I must have addiction problems just like her. I have bad habits, yes, but chemical addiction has (thankfully) NEVER been a temptation let alone a problem for me personally. I later realized that she had replaced her alcoholism with what I call her “psychobabble-ism” – she was inebriated on her own thoughts and theorems. Far healthier than booze, but damaging to others trying to piece together their own lives, especially when they don’t fit within her set of theories and beliefs regardless of how hard she tried to make them fit. Here is the ultimate problem with psychotherapy – other than beleaguered therapists trying to solve and/or project their own problems; psychotherapy is not a theoretical science but a speculative one at best. Sorry, but speculation rarely has solved any of my problems. Rather, it has often led me down wrong paths, caused me to think myself sick when it wasn’t me who had the problems, and fueled the rage I was struggling with rather than subdue it. Pretty much the story we all share to varying degrees. And no new modality, no new theory or research is going to be anything more than another path that leads to a cliff that some have been unable to back away from but have fallen into – drowned in a sea of despair. And I know there are therapists who recognize their human limitations, and I know there are those who try sincerely and compassionately to help – but cause more harm because of their human limitations, their inability to realize that you can’t universalize or make absolute an imperfect hypothesis, and their inability to just allow their client the space and comfort to talk through their own issues and find resolve within that. I just now say “NO” to therapy in any form other than what I know helps me personally – and it does not involve sitting in the office of a PhD who think of themselves as a Sage or Seer. Whatever path I or others take, it must be under the control of the one seeking healing and resolve to their problems – and not surrendering one’s volition to anyone else.
Oops, after posting my last comment, I noticed that anon had posted a link the the why-shrinks-have-problems website. But I guess the quotes I gave were worth calling attention to (and perhaps to the larger essay for those who haven’t read it).
I’m glad to see a consumer-friendly mental health article, though of course I’d take that exploration much further. A therapist doesn’t have to have a major, identifiable issue to be extremely damaging. The foundation is laid when he fosters a relationship with a client as the super-parent or unquestioned authority.
And we know the complaint process is barely worth beans in most cases.
My worst damage came in group therapist with TWO therapists egging each other on. The therapists prevailed upon the group to validate and side with them. The group sat mostly in silence, too intimidated to speak. One woman quietly recommended “When You Meet Buddha By The Side of the Road” to me. In sum: there’s no safety.
GW, I’m so sorry you had this craziness further topping a terrible time in your life. Beyond therapists’ failing to recognize their own need for gratification I attribute at least some of the problem to the invented theoretical (or as you say speculative) framework that removes and common humanity between two people.
I too went entered therapy at a time when my friends were getting married, starting businesses and the “hang out” sessions were waning. I was dreadful at office politics. The therapists never had the slightest equipment to address this. I don’t think my situation truly was defined. Fine. They should have pretended they had something for me.
Thank you disequilibrium1. What I find to be so sad is that the one therapist I speak of most thought she had such a connection with me and understood everything – and besides being about 85-90 percent wrong most often, there wasn’t really that much of what she projected that onto me that really had more than a superficial connection. What I now think is that people need to learn what they can from the best psychology has to offer (and burn the rest) as a discipline and apply it to their lives in their own way. One person simply can not be everything to all people any more than one set of assumptions can apply to every life.
No problem, Mary. I probably got the link from someone else on this site. Feel free to re-post anything I’ve posted. 🙂
GW,
I’m with you on the speculation. I see it as related to the recent thread of how therapists seem to be so certain — but speculation is inherently uncertain.
Mary – That’s exactly right. Psychotherapy is as risky as the commodities market – and speculation is at the heart of that. Risking money may not be wise but risking our psyches is even worse.
In retrospect, it’s as easy for a therapist to feign understanding as it is for a fortune teller to fake it: “something’s worrying you.” They only need assume the look and voice of concern, feign understanding, and the rest is filled in through expectation. I WANTED to be understood, so that’s what I believed. I know it was lip synching.
I also have learned meaningful things through reading. My first therapist eventually wrote a not-very-successful book on communication, and tried her theories on me. Her instruction was irrelevant and ridiculous.
Mary – I hoped you left a SCATHING review of your former therapist’s book on Amazon- which is exactly what it deserves.
A friend of mine told me of a very recent incident with her therapist. At their prior therapy session, the therapist told my friend of some problem with her (the therapist’s ) husband or ex, etc. After that session, at the next one, my friend talked to the therapist about her having had told her of the ‘problems’ she had had with her ex-husband, and that it wasn’t what my friend needed or wanted to hear in her therapy session, as it had NOTHING to do with my friend’s problems. My friend told me that the therapist told her “Good work!”, as to my friend having told her, and that she wouldn’t do it again.
My friend was satisfied. I was rattled, as this reminded me SO MUCH of dealings with my own ex-therapists. My response to my friend: “WHY would a decent therapist say what she said IN THE FIRST PLACE??!!” I mean, does it take an
Einstein to Realize that as a therapist you should NOT tell your client of your own problems?! This is clearly ‘crossing boundaries’, in therapy-speak. Once again, the therapists should absolutely KNOW the basic ‘rules’; no client should ever have to point them out to the therapist.
As a lawyer, this would be akin to getting a new client who wants me to file her divorce case. (I used to practice family law). I always had a questionnaire of questions to ask a new client, so I could file the Petition for divorce. BUT instead of asking the client the questions – your name, # of kids, own a house?, husband’s name, etc. – I answer the questions about MYSELF; My name, # of kids I have, that I own a house, etc. WHO would ever in his/her right mind think I was giving the client the service SHE had come in for? And, then, to top it off, at the end of our appointment, I stick my hand out for a check from the client!!
Btw – that made me wonder: has anyone here EVER refused to pay a therapist at the end of a ‘so-called’ ridiculous session, where he/she received NO services??
I don’t know how a therapist can view his client realistically when the relationship already is distorted. The “scientist” sticks his thumb right into the test tube.
Thinking back on the twists my life has taken, the right and wrong turns, how could any outsider have coached me? How could a therapist learn that I was needy in my friendships, bad at office politics, when I was in such a stagy, childish relationship with them?
Can anyone coach anyone else in office politic had they realized it was the problem?
Yes, if a therapist has never worked in an office or, conversely, is going through a divorce, what can they understand?
Breaking news: psychotherapy has an “image problem.”
Diseq’s mention ( few days ago) of a therapist’s expecting a “breakthrough” brought to mind something the last therapist I tried (about eight years ago) once said: That what kept him going as a therapist was the same thing that kept him going as a teacher (he taught psychology part time at a university down the pike): When the client or student “gets it”.
The implication seemed to be that I wasn’t “getting it,” and so he wasn’t getting his positive reinforcement in working with me.
I wonder how many therapists have this view. I saw therapy not as seeking a “breakthrough,” but as a slow learning process, not exciting, but worthwhile (if it works — which turned out to be a big if).
I did once (about 25 years ago) try a therapist (cognitive behavioral) who said his job was to break things up into appropriate sized steps for the me — if the steps were too large, I would get frustrated, but if they were too small I would get bored. That sounded good to me — but he didn’t do it. He just jumped to strong conclusions based on minimal evidence, which essentially presented me with a very large, very frustrating “step” to deal with. I can’t help but think of him as “Mr. My-Mind-Is-Made-Up-Don’t-Confuse-Me-With-The-Facts.”
That reminds me: The therapist who hinted that I didn’t “get it” had said earlier that cognitive therapists “don’t get it.” But at a later point, when I pointed out evidence of situations where focusing on differences aids understanding, contrary to his claim that I was harming myself by focusing too much on differences between him and me; that I should focus more on similarities, he said that the evidence didn’t change his opinion — and that if I cared about evidence, then I should try a cognitive therapist. I guess he also qualifies as a “Mr. My-Mind-Is-Made-Up-Don’t-Confuse-Me-With-The-Facts.” I guess a lot of therapists do.
Since what they’re peddling isn’t real, it follows they have to construct a fiction how it–whatever it is–is “supposed” to happen. When we don’t fit the therapist’s neat little preconception, their flailing recourse is absolutism and condescension.
When I once had a mean-mommy cry in my first therapy, my therapist assumed that would change me forever after. Talk about magical thinking.
When I participate in a blog discussions, I’ve see that “strong conclusion based on minimal evidence.” I’ve been labeled and diagnosed pejoratively, under the guise of professional opinion, several times.
disequilibrium1 – What you say here is so true. Besides all the truly negative things it reminds me of with therapists I also laugh at one therapist who was always sure her “moving energy” around had worked when I had had a decent week between sessions. She just didn’t get that what I was dealing with was not depression or negative energy or something rooted solely in “pain”. She didn’t get that because I had problems that that didn’t mean I didn’t have good moments as well as bad. For an educated person I always found her to be incredibly myopic and simplistic – and incapable of seeing her mistakes for more than just something that displeased me. She simply never saw the harm she was causing and could never truly take responsibility and change her ways.
I suspect as therapists get more years in practice, it’s easy for them to concoct some speculative system they perceive as effective and skip deep into the delusional garden. There’s nothing to stop them except the unlikely event of a disciplinary action or malpractice suit
I can empathize with a lot of the comments over the last few days. It is appalling to see therapists get away with this harmful, condescending behavior while living in a delusional world in which they fancy themselves to be compassionate helpers.
The “Mr. My-Mind-Is-Made-Up-Don’t-Confuse-Me-With-The-Facts” stories reminded me of this post: http://ironshrink.com/2007/09/how-to-tell-if-your-therapist-is-crazy-part-two/
On a separate (but perhaps related) note, I thought I’d pass along the links to a couple of other interesting discussions I’ve been following on the science-based medicine site. I think that psychotherapy fits well in the bucket that they call ‘CAM.’
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-our-critics-part-1-of-2/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-our-critics-part-2-of-2-whats-the-harm/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-science-of-clinical-trials/
Thanks for the links. I’ve added a comment to the ironshrink one. I haven’t had a chance to look at the others, but hope to soon.
Anon, CAM is right. The articles are full of parallels what happens in therapy.
I’ve done various CAMs, but knowing my responsibility to evaluate them. Watching therapists dodge the issue quickly gets predictable. Here is one of the NY Times comments:
“People who argue about the need for “empirical proof” that psychotherapy works should try this simple test: have a painful problem in your life, and then try (1) not talking to anyone about it, (or talking to a friend who listens to you for 1 minute and then changes the subject and starts talking about herself), and then 2) talk about it with someone like a therapist, a skilled listener, trained to listen, who can listen with both objectivity and compassion, and then see which of these two approaches makes you feel better. “
In response to the NY Times comment – what a crock of (bleep). The therapist who pains me the most screwed me over in the end. I kept telling her the hell I was being put through at my job and that I saw the writing on the wall. I had been there 14 years and knew how they prepared employees for their sadistic layoff rituals. She dismissed what I said with, “Oh, they aren’t going to do that to you…”. I was very busy and needed to arrange phone sessions as that getting to her office, waiting, an hour session, and getting home took 4 hours of my evening. I told her that I was busy and to advise a time the next Tuesday and I would call at that time. She suggested two-o’clock, and when I called I got no answer. She later e-mailed and told me that we had not set an appointment even though her earlier e-mail contradicted this nonsense. I ended up talking to a friend, not only about my job (I was put through 8 more months of hell – and let go), other concerns, and about what a twit this therapist ended up being. A total diss – I could go on but won’t. This is when I finally got it I needed to leave – and she acted like it was my fault.
Anyway, what would help me the most is if I could tie her up in a small room and project every moment of stupidity, ignorance, lies, unethical behavior (she wanted to be my Mommy surrogate and wanted me to believe we were friends), irresponsibility … until she screams to the top of her lungs and admits what a moron she really is. Then, I’d leave her to play it all over again in her head forever. I know, I’m twisted but that’s what would help me more than all the “psycho”-therapy in the world.
This therapist demeans friendship in favor of the processed cheese imitation. When I was between two therapists when I had some difficulties with my boss. One barbed “is he so bad? He hired YOU.” The second therapist described my boss with me a jargon-filled diagnosis. Then a friend offered real world insight how I might handle the situation.
The same NY Times commenter went further with his ad hominem comment to me, throwing around words like intimacy, caring, and meaningful as if he really believes his little 50-minute performance is equivalent to those things in real life:
“What a very low view you have of the value of relationships and intimacy. At their best, psychotherapists heal through the intimacy of the relationship itself: and psychotherapy offers a special type of real relationship. And as far as “substance” goes, there is hardly anything in the world as substantial and meaningful as a caring relationship.”
Diseq,
I say, “Yech!” to the comment at the end of your reply. That guy sounds like he thinks he’s God’s gift. He’s out of it. I certainly would not want to devote any part of my life to gratifying the ego-trip of someone like him — there are far better things to do in life. (BTW, I’m not opposed to intimacy — intimacy with someone special that I want to be intimate with is a great part of life for me. But to pay someone I don’t care to be intimate with so they can be intimate with me — that’s like paying them so they can use me as a prostitute. And that’s what therapy often seemed like to me.)
I think reveals the likely mindset of many therapists–that they’re delivering intimacy, a special real relationship.Another therapist gushed about rapport and empathy. It’s deluded when I think about it. And of course the guy goes for the ad hominem in response to me.
Disequilibrium1, that’s interesting that you picked out that comment from NY Times article … I had actually submitted a reply to it that was never published there:
“Substituting real friendship for paid friendship (emotional prostitution?) doesn’t sound like a recipe for a happier life. I’d take option 3: cultivate nurturing, mutual give-and-take friendships. If your current friends have a penchant for interrupting too soon, maybe try talking to *them* about it and see if they’d be willing to make adjustments when you’re in need (provided you do the same for them).”
Admittedly, my solution doesn’t have empirical proof, either, but it’s free and doesn’t dishonestly pretend to be healthcare or something it’s not.
Anon, that particularly commenter jousted following my comment with his zinger “What a very low view you have of the value of relationships and intimacy.” Summarizing his two posts, he/she expressed 1. Real life friendships are inferior to psychotherapeutic ones. 2. Therapy is the REAL intimacy and caring 3. He/she knows my soul from a couple of sentences.
All this gives me a vision of a chubby celestial cherub en pointe, spreading glittery twinkle dust. Or a tweady therapist en pointe.
Oh my goodness, you have a way with words, disequilibrium1; love this! Thanks for making me smile. 🙂
Also, your summary of that guy’s stated view is brilliant.
Thanks Anon. The more I understand the culture, the more cartoon it gets.
Thanks, anon. The more I understand their delusional world, the more cartoon it gets.
Btw, my readings on the science-based medicine site inspired me to write a list of “some tenets” that form the basis of my views on the psychotherapy industry. I wasn’t sure whether to keep #11 on the list . . .
1. Honesty and transparency are required for meaningful informed consent, which is required for ethical treatment.
2. Many psychotherapists routinely fail to disclose their methodologies, efficacy/failure rates, and safety/adverse event information, and thus fail to meet basic transparency and informed consent requirements for ethical treatment.
3. Psychotherapy research claiming a positive effect to date fails to meet standards of robust scientific clinical research. (Those studies that have attempted more rigor — using active control groups — tend to show that psychotherapy is no better than the far less expensive sham alternative.)
4. Anecdotes/case studies are not a valid substitute for science. Psychologists, of all people, should understand the psychological biases that permeate anecdotes/case studies; the scientific method is needed to overcome this.
5. Psychotherapy dishonestly pretends to be something it’s not, i.e., science-based healthcare.
6. Until therapists can reliably pinpoint what methodologies or what types of interactions change the brain or affect people in what ways (both short-term and long-term), it is irresponsible for them to go on messing with people’s minds under the misleading cloak of science or ‘healthcare.’
7. Psychotherapy is not harmless. It can waste precious time and financial resources, cause emotional harm and suicide, create false memories, create pathological personal narratives, increase trauma, damage personal relationships, and leave clients worse off than they were before therapy.
8. The burden of proof in healthcare is on proponents of a treatment to show that it is effective and safe enough for public consumption despite possible risks of harm, not on critics to prove that it is ineffective and/or unsafe. (Compare: If a person believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then the burden of proof is on her to prove that it exists, not on disbelievers to prove that it doesn’t exist.)
9. In order for psychotherapy to begin to have a role that approaches science-based healthcare, it will have to define its endpoints in measurable terms and then pass mature, rigorous well-designed, replicated randomized clinical trials with active control groups that control for expectations, and can rule out confirmation bias, allegiance effects, etc.
10. If psychotherapists prefer to consider their practice a non-evidence-based holistic art-form, so be it. But that should exclude them from making any claims to be part of the healthcare system, and should not be paid for with taxpayer dollars or insurance premiums. And, of course, it is the ethical obligation of such practitioners to disclose the non-evidence-based status to all of their clients.
11. For cases in which serious mental illness is not at stake, people may be well advised to redirect the time and effort they would put into building a trusting relationship with a paid therapist into strengthening or cultivating a relationship with authentic friends/loved ones. If we are to accept any of the academic positive psychology research, it’s gratitude, warm memories of the past, and warm relationships that are the source of happiness. (For cases in which serious mental illness is at stake, we need an alternative to the current psychotherapy industry model; will have more on that at a later date, TBD).
* In response to the possible objection that it’s hard for some people to find friends that they can be open with: It is also hard to find a good therapist that is the right fit, has an acceptable price/schedule, won’t cause harm, etc. And in the long run, a real friend that you can be intimate with will likely be of much more value than a paid one, and is probably worth the effort. Further, therapists are fond of saying that therapy doesn’t “work” unless the client puts in the work, so it’s work either way.
* In response to the possible objection that real friends may lack the life expertise of a therapist: If you’re looking for expert knowledge, then classes or books might be a better bet. There’s no evidence to suggest that the personal lives of therapists are any more healthy and happy than your average educated friend. In fact, there are indicators that many therapists may have more mental issues and worse relationships than their non-therapist counterparts. If they can’t practice what they believe in in their own lives, or if practicing what they believe in isn’t helping them in their own lives, then it may be fair to conclude that they are not experts after all. Furthermore, therapists, like any human being, are full of subconscious biases that influence their inquiries and insights, sometimes in unhelpful or harmful ways.
* In response to the possible objection that real friends may not lead to greater self-awareness: There’s no evidence to suggest that talking to a therapist for an hour a week leads to any greater self-awareness than meditating, reflecting on your feelings, or journaling for an hour a week. Bonus: if you choose the latter options, you’ll have more money left to spend on activities with friends and loved ones.
To be continued …
Anon, I love your concise explorations–this and your other blog piece. Your list clearly illuminates the fraud the mental health community has committed representing psychotherapy as scientific, proven treatment. I’m sure if I asked my medical specialists about treatments and efficacy, they’d have no trouble referring me to studies. Too what you write is in diametric contrast to how therapists presented treatment to me. One therapist described me initially as a hatched chick who just needed some shell cleaned off her. How’s that for science?
I could add to the harm list from my personal anecdotes: fostering self-absorption and depress, social isolation.
Wonderful job, Anon. This deserves to be seen and discussed.
Thanks!!
To be fair, a few therapists probably could point you to some studies. But they’d likely be poorly designed studies conducted by psychologists with a conflict of interest that are of such low quality that they don’t merit any valid conclusions (other than the conclusion that better research is needed). (Hard to tell if this is deliberate fraud or unintentional fraud due to willful ignorance, negligence, stupidity, or, more charitably, the emotional desire to believe clouding rational judgment.)
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/13/news/la-ol-blowback-pscyhology-science-20120713
http://blog.dansimons.com/2013/07/pop-quiz-what-can-we-learn-from.html
Btw, the stories about our therapy encounters usually make me cringe, but this one just made me laugh again. 🙂
“One therapist described me initially as a hatched chick who just needed some shell cleaned off her. How’s that for science?”
I perceive the therapy culture as cult-like. But instead of worship of a single guru, the belief is the symbol–The Therapist. The Therapist is more perfect than a friendship. The Therapist bestows intimacy, love and rapport which magically is healing. The research, the assertions, the anecdotes appear crafted to prove this Mighty Being’s existence.
I try to imagine how someone transforms himself from a humble grad student into this magic shaman, but assume it’s one part the remote theoretical training, one part answering the needs of despairing clients. A whole pseudo-world is established.*
*No science was employed in the implementation of this wry opinion.
(My mistake. This article is from 2011.) http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/magazine/a-girl-not-named-sybil.html?smid=fb-share
More therapist peddling in the NY Times. (whew, big typo. NOT my therapist.)
Here are therapists, like a hyena pack, in absentia ripping down a therapist’s real, recent client. Their sole evidence is that he said he wants less frequent treatment because of financial problems. I’m unsure if the client can net-search this, but anyone can sign up for this news feed.
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/How-do-you-work-narcissistic-1055237.S.277252011?view=&srchtype=discussedNews&gid=1055237&item=277252011&type=member&trk=eml-anet_dig-b_pd-ttl-hdp&fromEmail=&ut=18icnar0CmfRY1
I LOVE it when therapists are interviewed as ‘experts’ by the media re: their ‘insight’.
See the title of this Denver Post article:
“Denver Boys Raised in Filth Face Lifelong Struggles, Therapists Say”
the article goes on to explain:
“They’ve grown up in an environment where they have learned that adults are not around to take care of you. That means these boys are going to be very emotionally stunted for the rest of their lives.”
Even the 2-year-old will struggle to repair the damage, said Baird and other child therapists who have not met the boys but were familiar with the case. Experts interviewed by The Denver Post have not evaluated these children, but based their opinions only on public reports.”
you can read the entire article here:
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_24291054/denver-boys-raised-filth-face-lifelong-struggles-therapists
Once again – we absolutely NEED therapists because only they, due to their powerful insight and educational training, have the required expertise to make such brilliant deductions about “damaged” children. As if NO ONE IN THIS BLOG, OR ANYONE WITH THE LEAST SHRED OF COMPASSION FOR CHILDREN WOULD FAIL TO THINK OTHERWISE. Once again, our society must get off its stuck thinking that therapists are ‘experts’ in human behavior; that they ‘must’ be listened to and obeyed by the rest of us poor peons, because if we DO NOT do so we would otherwise treat each other like the Neanderthals that we truly are.
I agree Resharpen. So often following a tragedy, the news media calls on the “expertise” of a mental health professional who, never having seen the subject, states the obvious. Or worse, the counselor talks like he knows the client. Such a joke. They remind me of those generic fortune tellers who seem so mind-reading with statements like, “something is troubling you.”
A blog reflecting on how therapy has infused our culture, relationships and even how we experience emotions.
Thanks for the link! The author is very insightful about the distortion of therapizing emotions versus having emotions. She has another great post here: https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2006/08/31/wow-stuff-about-the-anti-political-nature-of-therapy/
This woman with autism seems far more insightful about emotions and relationships than those in the therapy culture.
Yes, I thought the author with autism pegged the situation precisely. Therapists preach “getting in touch with our emotions.” But they don’t mean real emotions. They mean sanitized narration– “I feel anger when you pour soup over my head.” Few transactions in the therapist’s office have much resemblance to life in the world. I actually had a therapist tell me “I feel anger when you…” and I thought it ridiculous.
Thanks for the link. It led to http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2006/07/23/good-counseling-bad-counseling/, which you left a comment on a couple of months ago (and perhaps listed on this blog, but I missed it). Here is a quote (somewhat abbreviated) from it that I especially appreciate:
“…the counselor has to be able to figure out – with the client – not just what the problems are, but also what the client thinks is important: the things they need to solve, or skills they need to acquire. If something is important to the client, then it’s important! … A lot of what people need is attentive listening and being taken seriously (for a change).”
A therapist willing and able to implement these precepts would have been helpful to me! They seem so common sense — but are so rare among therapists.
It brings back painful memories: The therapist who laughed at me when I tried to bring up things that were important to me; the one who said, “You expect too much,” when I said I had decided to quit seeing her; the one who said, “It’s not uncommon for clients to have fantasies about what therapy is,” when I tried to talk about how therapy was so different from what I expected (based on a book I had read).
Mary – My sentiments exactly. The one thing, from my bad experiences, I tell others if they are seeking out psychotherapy is to remember that they are in charge of their therapy – and they are there for what they choose to be there for. Many things I’ve been told to be problematic with me were really matters others simply could not deal with. It was either a problem they had with my personality or projecting their own problems onto me. Well, doesn’t sound like I was the one needing help. What’s sad is it’s taken me too many years to realize that I’ve carried other peoples’ ridicule and criticism along as if it were ipso facto and that I was the problem! And that goes for many therapists as well as many more of the “armchair” variety. If a therapist can’t deal with the patient choosing what they feel to be of the greatest importance to them – then it’s time to either find a better therapist or (even better) learn to explore and resolve our own problems on our own.
I too had expectations/fantasies what therapy was, from media and from the interaction itself. But the therapists had their own fantasies and were complicit in mine, pretending to understand me, pretending to be an expert in my life, or maybe even psychic. If more realistic expectations were established from the outset, less damage would have been done.
The main source of my unhappiness prior to therapy was my deficit in many life and professional skills. Work skills/work political savvy I think has either to be gained through experience and through examples and mentors. No therapist could possibly know how to cope with every culture.
I don’t know where one learns how to be more successful in friendships. But I do know, stoking sorrow or an expectation that the world cater to my wounds and my self-pity (as my therapy encouraged) is detrimental to forming friendships.
I do think much of my unhappiness was situational. It was a matter of needing better life skills that therapists were utterly unequipped to teach.
I posted a review on Amazon for Patricia Keith-Spiegel’s new Red Flags in Psychotherapy. It’s an academic-priced book and I’m happy to pass it on to someone if you’d like.
Here my two-star review:
As a consumer, I find this book delivers poor insight into clients who’ve filed professional complaints. The book ridicules and trivializes its subjects throughout. And it fails to realistically explain harmful therapy through a real client’s eyes.
Take the first case study chapter, that cites a “classic article” exploring James Groves’ four categories of “hateful” clients. It’s disappointing that a book on ethics is so condescending and name calling. Pasting cute labels on people seeking help such as the “dependent clinger,” “the manipulative help-rejecter” builds no bridge of understanding.
Might it even be possible that clinicians stoke some “hateful” traits in they so scorn? Therapists hang a shingle welcoming all with their despair, pain and defects. They promise solace, coping skills or even dramatic transformation. Then the therapist disdains relationships he creates.
Therapists essentially are actors, playing roles of fantasy parents, wise gurus, omniscient authorities. They lead clients into infantilization and submissiveness. They invade their clients’ core wounds and self-doubts, stoking powerlessness. They interpret and label a life, feigning they know more than the person living it. They coax clients into exposing their most irrational, unfiltered sides, while reposing in note-taking remoteness. They present a contrived, withholding, mechanical relationship as intimacy.
And then they deride the consequences of this gamesmanship as “hateful clients.”
Far more disrespectful was the Keith-Spiegel’s Herculean effort to depict client- plaintiffs as delusional, clownish, infantile and stupid as rocks. Laughable client contacts the Ethics Committee; hilarity ensues. Loranna, the author’s first pathetic specimen “swaggered into his office wearing black tights revealing slightly bulging hips, an equally right pink sequined tank top barely containing her huge augmented breasts, gold sandals with five inch heels, and gold-tone filigree earrings the size of saucers.” “…I am an actress, possibly the best in the world.”
Keith-Spiegel allots nearly two pages narrating the fictional Mora’s obsession with her own appearance and toilette, a client so preposterous that she thinks her therapist has transformed into a vampire.
None of Keith-Spiegel’s fictional clients have a grain of intelligence or education, most are so deranged they don’t elicit a moment of sympathy. One assumes that is the author’s polarizing calculation.
It’s illuminating to this consumer to peek at the smug discussion that passes for ethics in the mental health field. I challenge Keith-Spiegel and others interested in the client-professional divide to discover real clients and how they’re harmed in therapy.
I really enjoyed this book. Though written by a therapist, author Stephen Briers debunks many devices perpetuated by therapists: the inner child, setting boundaries, talking through the past, getting feelings out, blah, blah.
Thanks for the book recommendation; looks like an interesting read. The self-help industry seems relatively benign, though, compared to the harm that can take place behind closed doors in therapy.
I agree that fallacies from the safety and distance of a book is much more benign because we at least can pick and choose.
I thought the book interesting because it covered much of the pablum I was served in the consulting room and, from my reading, suspect still is being served. I read much of this stuff from practicing clinicians who no doubt sell this garbage to their clients. The book gave me a new perspective on the industry’s “life wisdom” palette.
I think some of the greatest harm from therapy stems from the nature of the power-imbalanced, dishonest, fake, exploitative relationship itself.
Anon, I agree with you about the relationship. And the more I read and reflect, the more delusional and, to use their word–sick–the entire enterprise is.
And atop that layer, much of the one-size-fits-all conventional wisdom the profession dispenses is a ridiculous road map.
Good way to put it.
Thanks for the pointer to the book. I’ve read the introduction online, and it sounds like the writer has a lot of sense. I particularly like the paragraph starting, “The danger is that it is consequently very easy for popular-psychology authors to blur the boundaries between opinion, ideology and reputable fact.”
(But I won’t go so far as to buy or read the whole book.)
The book examines and arguments down many of the devices and truisms that permeate our culture. Many were employed by my therapists and discussed by current clients, so likely are used widely in actual treatment.
I had an interesting back-and-forth with a psychology ethics professor in the comments on Amazon.com. The discussion concerns a new book, Red Flags in Psychotherapy, Stories of Ethics Complaints and Resolutions by Patricia Keith-Spiegel. The books novelly presents several story-like episodes of client complaints/ruptures and how they’re evaluated and resolved by a California ethics board. Commendably, the book emphasizes the temptation for a practitioner to rationalize unethical behavior and the board’s mission for fairness to clinician and client. All the book’s cases are resolved with some action, as opposed the infinitesimal fraction in real life.
However, I was not happy to see an ethics book imbue none of these fictionalized clients with with a grain of competence or intelligence, but instead paint them as pathetic specimens that any average person, even more an educated therapist, could ridicule and deride. First up was Loranna Birch, a caricature, deluded Hollywood wannabe, whose apparel for therapy sessions the author describes with great flourish: “When Loranna arrived for the second session, she wore a strapless gold lamee dress with a hemline barely covering her black lace panties, tall black boots with gold buckles, huge rimmed Gucci sunglasses, and large red plastic earrings in the shape of roses.”
Don’t all of us dress like that?
The author goes on to describe how the ethics board judiciously dispatches the complaint against “Ms. Birch’s” understandably challenged therapist.
Other plaintiffs included Megan Mahoney/Megan LaFleur, a dazzling but vacuous former prostitute who spells the word “pciscologist,” Candy Bean, who tells her husband, “my emotions are being molested!”, Betinna Johansson, who, on a flea market stroll with her therapist, flips for a dogs-playing-poker painting (Betinna wore strapless summer dress showcasing her ample cleavage) and Mora Slocum who wrote the complaint board, “…without provocation he showed his fangs and blood gushed from his mouth….One of your members is a vampire.” The therapist had bitten his lip.
The males in the book, while still a gallery of sub-intelligent specimens, received slightly better fictional treatment.
This is how an ethics professor/author portrays complaining clients to her colleagues.
My review was downvoted, presumably by the audience for the book. This is the exchange– my review, then
clicking Dr. Gerald Koocher’s response to me following:
Well said, disequilibrium1. The author’s self-serving inauthentic presentation is outrageous and dehumanizing, and you do an excellent job of bringing this to light.
Another one jumped into the discussion, name calling and attempting to invalidate my viewpoint. Hmm. Wonder why they’re so threatened. 😉
The discussion of the Psychobabble book reminded me of a book that I recently saw a reference to: Psychotherapy and the Highly Sensitive Person, by Elaine Aron (http://www.amazon.com/Psychotherapy-Highly-Sensitive-Person-Improving/dp/0415800749).
I haven’t read the book, but looking at some of Aron’s things on the web (e.g., http://www.hsperson.com/), one thing that struck me is the comment that highly sensitive persons (HSP’s) are more aware of subtleties than most people. This reminded me of a recent discussion on this blog in which several of us expressed frustration at therapists’ black-and-white approaches, contrasting with, for example, the approach of a physician who might express uncertainty or give several possibilities.
Other traits of HSP’s highlight many of my difficulties with therapy. For example, I went to therapy with the belief (based on about forty years of observation of myself and others) that I’m different; that that wasn’t “bad,” but that it sometimes caused problems when people assumed I was like them when I wasn’t. I naively assumed that therapists would be well schooled in individual differences and would help me learn to cope better with being different. But what I got in therapy was things like “You’re different and need to change to be more like me,” or “Oh, no, you’re not different,” (spoken in a tone that suggested that the therapist was trying to “reassure” me that I wasn’t that horrible thing) or “I think you’re harming yourself by focusing on differences between you and me; you need to focus more on how we are similar,” — all pretty frustrating and unhelpful.
I doubt many truly can understand living and problem-solving in another person’s shoes. And therapists with their arrogance to meddle in other’s lives believing they’re “healers,” are the opposite of a modest, sensitive person.
I’m sure my younger self particularly was in the highly-sensitive category, but I eventually learned to use that to my advantage–by out-thinking imposters and critics. A wise elder — not a therapist — told me to handle other’s egos by leaving mine at the door.
I know a lot about the therapy business as an insider. Most therapists are completely sincere and sink a lot of their own money into their own training. They believe in what they’re doing but they’re probably not the brightest or deepest thinking of people, even those with PhDs. There are hundreds of different theories, and there is a mountain of research, but there is really nothing new happening in the field. Therapists are probably mostly helpful but modestly so, simply because they’re listening to you, and you believe in their status, qualifications, etc. Jerome Frank showed this years ago. No-one is going to definitively blow the whistle on the therapy trade because too many livelihoods are involved, and believers are exactly like religious folk. If you have nowhere else to turn, find a therapist who charges modestly for brief therapy. The biggest rip-offs are those who trade off clients’ anxiety that you only ‘get what you pay for’, i.e. pay for more and you get more. You don’t.
Thanks, psychinsider. I have utmost admiration for anyone who invests time and money in the training and then has the integrity to examine it critically.
I think most mental health professionals start with the best of intentions, but might go on to damage on those challenging their fortresses of self-deceit. Selling “status” strikes me as faith healing.
If therapists were honest, hey, I’m just another Joe, like you, who happened to go to grad school, granting you a focused 50 minutes to examine your problems, they’d sell an honest service.
Like the joke in Woody Allen’s Annie Hall about needing the imaginary eggs, few are willing to abandon the psychotherapy myth because that would leave us defenseless in this scary, crazy world.
I have wondered how so many people with advanced educations, who self-identify as analytical personalities, are so unaware of their own self-delusion. I appreciate someone from inside the field affirming what we skeptics sadly have concluded. Unfortunately we had to go to Oz and back first.
Psychinsider, the financial rip-off is the least of it. A much larger theft is that an Institution of highly trained professionals played me for a fool, inducing me into an emotional disrobing on the promise that there was some magic anointment, some tooth fairy to transform my life. An actual scam in my family–caregivers winning our trust and coercing an elder–was a cakewalk to understand by comparison.
I see an even larger rip-off is a cost to society in the Industry’s endless magic elixirs, prisms and oversimplifying vocabulary which I believe muddies our thinking and distances us from life and each other. There are psych clients on the internet who sound like whimpering infants, hanging on every word from their rock-star therapists. It’s a travesty what these demigods and wizards perhaps partnered to create.Worse yet is recognizing myself in their regressed voices.
disequilibrium1 – thank you so much. What so many ‘IN’ the therapy field fail to understand is how emotionally bankrupted we were by those horrible therapists. To me, this is HIGHLY ironic, as ‘they’ are ‘supposed’ to be the ’emotional professionals’ in our society. Instead, they just discuss these matters ‘rationally’ – what degrees did that bad therapist have, etc.?? I have been shown more empathy by accountants!
Therapy left me feeling, enfeebled, childlike, subordinate and ineffectual–it really brought out the worst in me. And that was by the “kind” therapist. You know those Queen Bees who “appear” golden, confident and flawlessly groomed leaving others feeling like schlubs in comparison? That was therapy for me.
psychinsider,
I agree with most of what you say. The one sentence that I think misses something important is, “Therapists are probably mostly helpful but modestly so, simply because they’re listening to you, and you believe in their status, qualifications, etc. Jerome Frank showed this years ago.” This may apply to many people who are helped by therapy, but not to those of us who were not helped or who experienced harm in therapy. To take the points in this sentence one by one:
1. “they’re listening to you”: In my experience, therapists were generally very poor listeners — but, with my tendency to blame myself, I attributed this largely to my difficulties in expressing myself orally. (Unfortunately, part of what I hoped for in therapy was improvement in this area.)
2. “you believe in their status, qualifications, etc.”: I partly did and partly didn’t. My emotions did, but my rational mind didn’t — their behavior didn’t seem to indicate that they were qualified, but my emotions (again, the self-blaming tendency) said that I was being overly critical. Unfortunately, the therapists reinforced this, by comments such as:
(Therapist 1) “You may not like the process”; “You expect too much; that’s your problem”
(Therapist 2) “You gave up your power”; “What you need is something like a mold that a brick is made in; when the mold is taken off, it leaves a solid form”; “I get the feeling you think this should be an intellectual discussion” (with a note of disdain on the word “intellectual”; to which I replied in a rare moment of competence, “I think it should in part, because I am in part an intellectual person,” to which she did not respond); “Are you sure you’re not second guessing me”; “Do you realize that you’re asking me to give up my control?”; “Consider me to be something like a computer; what you say goes in, mixes around with my training and experience, and out comes a response”; “Therapy is an intimate relationship” (when I said that her manner seemed inappropriately intimate)’; “You don’t communicate like most women,” “I can’t help you if you take everything I say as criticism” (I didn’t take everything she said as criticism, but a lot of it I did find shocking); “You are experiencing so much pain because you are facing difficult things about yourself” ; “My client’s pain is precious to me”; “Transference has occurred without my intending it to.”; “You can’t accept nurturance from a women.”
(Therapist 3) “You make things so complex” (accompanied by laughter); changing the subject when I brought up something important to me; asking me what I meant by shame, then saying she didn’t understand when I tried to explain, then finally, after about three attempts to explain, tossing her head back and her hands in the air, and saying with a hearty laugh, “I have no idea what you’re talking about!”; saying “That must have been difficult for you to say,” when I said, “Whatever you think is best,” in response to her balking at my request for a formal diagnostic procedure; saying, “You’ll never get better if you keep seeking the perfect therapist,” when I told her I was going to quit seeing her.
3. “Jerome Frank showed this years ago.” My understanding is that Frank proposed a theory that this is so — but didn’t address the problem of harm in therapy.
Please do not respond with a personal comment such as, “I’m sorry you had such a bad experience. ” The real issues are: Are you sorry that such bad experiences do occur? And what can be done to prevent them? And what can be done to (at least partially) undo the harm? I believe that a therapist who is a good listener (which for me includes ability to take in complexity), accepting, gives me space, and doesn’t have an agenda of their own, could be helpful to me. But that seems to be a very rare bird — I have tried a number of therapists since those three, but all seem to have some simplistic view that just doesn’t fit the complex reality that I live in.
Mary –
thanks so much for your remarks. I so agree with them –
Thanks for writing, Psychinsider. I appreciate your admission that psychotherapists are “probably not the brightest or deepest thinking of people, even those with PhDs” and that they’re selling a placebo/snakeoil that requires a set of untrue beliefs on the part of the client.
I agree with disequilibrium1’s line of thought in that one of the most harmful aspects of therapy is the feeling of being violated, emotionally raped, exploited, and played a fool for having trusted a professional scammer (not to mention the larger societal costs incurred by accepting the therapy culture).
Like disequilibrium1, I too have utmost admiration for anyone who invests time and money in the training, and then has the integrity to examine it critically and walk away from an unethical/dishonest practice.
—
PS – Inspiration for critical thinking whistleblowers:
Psychinsider,
Like anon, I especially appreciate your comment, “they’re probably not the brightest or deepest thinking of people, even those with PhDs.” As I commented earlier, part of me was in a perverse kind of denial in therapy — the evidence sure seemed to point to my therapists’ being shallow, yet my guilt said “shame on me” for being so critical of them — which they seemed to reinforce.
In therapy, I often felt like the guy in the old New Yorker cartoons where everyone else was oblivious to what was happening around them. Although I occasionally get that feeling in other situations, is is not typical, whereas in therapy it was very, very common. Therapy so often seemed like a crazy place — and I went a little crazy in response. That built on the foundation of a problem that I had before therapy — that I tended to feel embarrassed or even ashamed for someone else when they made a fool of themself.
I have heard that some psychotherapeutic approaches take the philosophy “take what fits, and leave the rest.” But that requires a skill I didn’t have — and that I had hoped therapy would help me develop.
Looking at what I’ve just written, there seem to be three examples to support the admonition, “Watch out if you’re going to therapy for help with specific problems — they might become worse instead of better.” Therapy for me was largely a process of learning to feel helpless.
Mary, like you, I tended to “carry” other embarrassment for others when they acted irresponsibly or manically. That particularly applied in therapy. Like you I felt increasingly helpless. I felt like an defective child at the foot of the priest.
“Psychinsider”:
Are you FOR REAL????! Have you taken the time to read ANY of the comments in this blog before you posted? And – have you seen many therapists yourself, for your own problems? Doesn’t seem so to me. My comments to your post:
“Most therapists are completely sincere”
– well, if this is the case, we are all REALLY in trouble. Most of the ones I saw were power-hungry, cruel, & had their own agendas. READ my descriptions of them above.
HOw the heck do YOU personally know that they are sincere? YOU DON”T. Unless you sit in there, and directly observe how they ALL treat their clients, you know nothing.
“. There are hundreds of different theories, and there is a mountain of research”
– This has NOTHING to do with therapists being self-centered, screaming at their clients, sitting there saying nothing for entire sessions, etc. What ‘theory’ tells a therapist to treat his/her client worse than a dog? To tell the client that men are ‘ALL PIGS’ & are NOT worth being with? To ‘advise’ the therapist to tell the client the therapist’s OWN problems to get help for their (the therapist’s) problems?
I have had this, and more, happen to me many many times.
” No-one is going to definitively blow the whistle on the therapy trade because too many livelihoods are involved”-
I, myself, worked in the licensing of professionals in a state agency for 10 years, and, believe me, MANY in certain ‘trades’ were called on the carpet NO MATTER HOW MUCH $ OR HOW MANY LIVELIHOODS were involved.
I myself served as the lawyer to two boards which licensed doctors, and others which licensed pharmacists, dentists, etc. THE BAD APPLES WERE DISCIPLINED(for the most part). Doctors who used ‘unproven’, wierd therapies, doctors and dentists who committed fraud, pharmacists who ‘sold’ drugs illegallly – you name it.
The boards which license therapists should discipline their licenses for ‘unethical’ practice – meaning treating clients like sh*t – but don’t. They only do if the therapists sleep with their clients. We must make them discipline therapists whenever they truly deserve it.
“If you have nowhere else to turn, find a therapist who charges modestly for brief therapy.”
HUH? I spent two years with one of the ‘cheapest’ therapists in the Chicagoland area. SHE HATED MEN – it was the Belief that everything else twirled around in her life. You think I got help from her? HA! And – the other cheap ones were no better!
Listen: IT DOES NOT MATTER:
1. How much a therapist charges:
2. What degree(s) he/she has;
3. How many years he/she has been practicing;
4. What theories he/she uses or doesn’t;
5. What schools/universities he/she attended;
6. The fact that there are ‘no good proven’ theories;
7. The fact that there are TOO many theories;
8. The fact that the therapist him/herself went thru therapy;
8. The fact that . .. (Fill in the blanks here).
WHAT Matters:
If the therapist is a decent person, with a lot of common sense, who RESPECTS the client and shows it, actually listens, doesn’t USE the client for the therapist’s own purposes, isn’t on a power trip, and doesn’t say awful things to the client, and SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY, helps the client.
DO US ALL A FAVOR: Read OUR comments, all listed above.
We have had others like you come in here before. What YOU are doing that makes me angry:
You either haven’t read OUR comments, or haven’t listened to them. You haven’t responded to ANY of them specifically.
You simply waltzed in here, and plastered YOUR OWN ADVICE, like you were some kind of Expert, and WE needed to listen to your Brilliance.
You are simply playing the OLD therapist game: ‘I am superior to all of you here, I have all the answers, and YOU must all listen to me. Oh, btw, I won’t bother listening to ANY of you, as I AM THE SUPERIOR ONE.’
My response: BS!
You could have instead; asked us ‘what therapy, if any, has worked’?
or: ‘Do you think it matters how much the therapist charges?’, etc.
BUT oh no. You know SO MUCH BETTER. What crap.
And don’t respond with the :
‘oh,no. Poor little old me! I was just TRYING TO HELP all of you. I didn’t say you HAD to listen to me’.
What you posted here is EXACTLY what terrible therapists do. You didn’t listen. YOU just rattled off what you think WE should do. The only way you can resurrect yourself now in this blog is to do what I said before: Go back and READ our posts. RESPOND to those specifically. ASK us questions or give us support, NOT ADVISING us what to do. You are not SUPERIOR to those of us here. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Resharpen, knowing your Ethics Board experience, I’m curious about your generalized reactions to a new book on ethics complaints that narrates EVERY complaint–even a single therapist’s outburst–resulted in some kind of action from the governing body. I had two co-therapists involved and complained to two bodies. The psychologists failed to find in my favor, and the psych nurse board flatly rejected my “something about you makes me want to kick you” grievance. A journalist told me that only an infinitesimal fraction of grievances results in action by professional bodies.
The book, which I DON’T like, is Patricia Keith-Spiegel’s Red Flags in Psychotherapy: Stories of Ethics Complaints and Resolutions. I felt it made clients look like buffoons, and my negative review pulled me into an amusing skirmish on Amazon.
On therapist’s sincerity: the aphorism “the road to hell is pave with good intentions” –has at least two meanings. I’m convinced the most therapists have to BELIEVE they’re doing good works as psychinsider points out, to the point of religion. My guy rationalized that his bullying somehow was beneficial treatment.
I doubt many of our blog respondents will darken a therapist’s threshold again. Unfortunately, so many people in society feel at wit’s end, and, as psychinsider says “feel they have nowhere else to turn.” That probably isn’t us. 🙂 If someone does seek a therapist, I’d hope they’d go as an clear-minded, realistic informed consumer.
1) disequ: I will read the Amazon reviews re: that book, and get back to you.
2) And if these people DO go and see therapists, and most are ‘informed’, they most likely will never return to them.
I am SO angry at my ex therapists. Sometimes It makes me feel crazy – this morning, after writing that ‘message’ to the ‘insider’ I went stomping around my house. Wish it weren’t so. Anyone else here feel like that?
I feel like I was duped – over and over again. And after dealing with one nut of a therapist, all people could say to me was – try ‘another’ one. It wasn’t their fault – that is how our society thinks – that it is the ‘fault’ only of that one, individual therapist, rather than something wrong within their profession.
I feel a thousand times better now, after having found this blog and talking to others who understand. Just wish I had to the time to DO something about this. Oh well.
resharpen: I know that crazy well–and both of us are highly competent in our lives. Things provoke me, and I’ve had many stomping sessions. And as my reading and awareness moved from my individual exploitation>to the state grievance process>to the wider therapeutic culture, it felt like opening a grotesque nesting doll, with the core identical to the painted exterior. I was ignited to revisit this years later after I saw the documentaries on the Jonestown cult. I had to leave different kind of gurus. There was no mass suicide death or cyanide, but it was my own subsuming to the powerful authority.
Had I been “informed,” I still might have gone briefly–I’m a seeker that way. I hope I would have invested less hope and exposure.
I’m pessimistic much “can be done,” or changed, except individually. I hope those who feel chewed up by the Industry find what they need to understand what happened. Providing this is difficult, I had to regain our own sovereignty–as someone above used the word. I also appreciate people “inside” who communicate skepticism, provoke and prick consciences and truly advocate for consumers.
Mary S – I second resharpen’s sentiments. I not only agree with what you say but identify so much with what you say. I find that just amazing and it solidifies not only my position on much of therapy but also with accepting myself and my rejection of others projecting their “stuff” onto me.
Thank you to all of you for your comments and dialogue. I love our community here. 🙂
After a couple of attempts, I concluded that my answers following bad therapy could never come from more therapy. I eventually turned to discussion and then reading, not only about therapy, but about cults, brain washing and power relationships in general. Paradoxically, maybe I’ve gained more therapy than many. I’m much better at assessing charismatic performances.
Disequil – I have done something similar to what you have. Since leaving therapists, have been helped immensely by well-written self-help books. I don’t mean the types that tell you that you must be HAPPY all the time, etc. The books I have read show that life is not simple, but often more complex than we imagine. Goes into great depth in showing us why people often act the way they do; and that in relationships, each person plays a role. Recently, two books which have helped me immensely: “The Betrayal Bond” by Patrick Carnes, Ph.D.; and : “He’s Afraid, She’s Afraid” by Steven Carter & Sokol. They address people who have fears of commitment, and those attracted to them.
No therapist has ever REALLY helped me with relationships. I can still hear one ex-therapist lecturing me that ‘of course’ a recent ex boyfriend would leave me “because of the way I was”. (whatever that meant). As to couples counselors? Two of the ones my ex-husband and I saw together each heard him yell that ‘all the problems in our relationship” were MY fault”. AND neither of them said one word in response, the a**holes.
Books have helped me; they don’t ‘blame me’ for the end of a relationship; they don’t judge; they don’t lord their power over me, & tell me how they are ALWAYS correct, etc. AND if I disagree with them, I just shut them. I spend far less money this way, with no aggravation, and my heart doesn’t break because some stupid therapist has her/his OWN agenda. I have received far more love & acceptance from my books than my ex-therapists.
I have been in therapy with someone for seven years and have paid her thousands of
Gerald: I am so very sorry for what you have been through. If It is any consolation at all, I can relate VERY well to what you have been through, because I have been through a version of it (as have others on this blog). You are NO fool: because YOU have woken up. It is not your fault in the least that you have spent time and money on therapy. Please realize that (in the States anyway) it is our culture’s ‘answer’ to any and all problems from everyone. You tell anyone in this country that you have problems with depression; their rigid & only response: ‘Oh, go see a therapist.’ You & your spouse can’t get along? society’s response: ‘see a therapist’. ANY emotional ‘problem you have? Our entire culture’s Greek Chorus’ answer of: GO SEE A THERAPIST.
And even AFTER we do, as you or I have, and it doesn’t work out for us, now what is the response from everyone? You got it – ‘see Another therapist’. At BEST, we are told that the problem lies with the Individual therapist. I have found this to be exactly like a mantra for a cult – SEE A THERAPIST.
I have found almost No one, but those on this blog, who will listen to even the possibility that there are major, major issues with the field of therapy itself, and/or (what I keep telling others if you read my comments on this blog) that a huge reason for BAD therapy are the horrific reasons Why many become therapists – people who ‘must’ have power, need their own issues resolved; love to scream at others – like their clients/patients; etc. etc.
So – please Please – DO NOT feel ‘a fool’! You are the LAST thing from that.
And you are right – there ARE other ways to deal with emotional problems.
In this vein, I want to comment a bit on your statement that perhaps “once damage has been done in childhood it can’t be undone”, and give you hope that things can change for yourself. I have been working for years now, albeit off & on, on myself, looking within by going deep down, standing apart from myself & seeing my own ‘behavior patterns’ without judgment. working with incredibly powerful books (see a recent comment of mine above) and the help of wise & kind friends, I am slowly, and surely, changing. And each time I take an act I wouldn’t have before, I become that much stronger. It has much easier and quicker to act in the best way for me the next time. And I have been very, very gentle with myself – because I too, was wounded in childhood.
I would first recommend mourning & grieving several losses. One – the fact you did not have the childhood you wanted & so much deserved, including, perhaps, the parent(s) you should not have had. Two – doing the same for your time with those disgusting therapists. Like with our parents, I truly feel we bounded with the therapists as well – no matter HOW they treated us. We told them our inner feelings, our most intimate secrets (perhaps) – how could we have NOT bonded with them emotionally?? I, myself have mourned these losses by telling others of my experiences and with journalling. Also, as I explained in another comment above, I have turned to wise books. I would highly recommend “The Betrayal Bond” by Patrick Carnes, and, if this happened to you (which I think it did from your descriptions of your therapists) “The Verbally Abusive Relationship-How to Recognize It and How to Respond” by Patricia Evans. BOTH may readily apply to experiences with many, many therapists.
And I want to emphasize that I, for one, support the way and manner that you choose to do this. We are all individuals. I have friends who have worked on paintings to mourn their losses; others walked everyday & grieved while doing this. No one way is for all.
And I commend you in ending seeing that awful therapist. Please do NOT focus on blaming yourself; or on the time-and-money you spent on seeing her. ONce again, it is very hard to turn ‘against’ society’s rigid mantra advice to ‘seeatherapist’, especially when no one advises you of Any other place to turn, and you are hurting emotionally. YOU are the normal, wise one; It is your Therapist who has the REAL Problems. You have woken up!
Resharpen: Thanks v much for your helpful reply. I will certainly take a look at the books you recommend. I sought therapy originally for a range of problems such as shyness, low self esteem, depression, phobias and sexual problems that were getting in the way of me having a ‘normal’ life. Generally in England being in therapy is not approved of, and except in some more trendy middle class circles is seen as a sign of weakness or oddness, although that has been changing in recent years. In the States therapy seems to be big business and heavily marketed. Over here it is beginning to get like that too – there’s big bucks to be made from people’s distress – the only trouble is that we’ve been hit by the recession and austerity measures and people (and government) just don’t have the money.
Over thirty years ago I moved among people who were into gestalt, bioenergetics, encounter etc., but some of the quieter ones among us preferred more one-to-one analytic approaches. There was a mood of self-help in those days with people working together without paying professional therapists, partly for political reasons as well as lack of money,e.g. through co-counselling. I preferred to go to a professional as I felt I needed more intensive help. Unfortunately, it didn’t really work. I don’t think I was abused so much as exploited and milked by my therapists for every penny they could get. And mostly they were wrapped up in their own theories which they tried to impose on me. For example being a few seconds late for a session because of delays on public transport meant that the whole session was devoted to ‘exploring the reasons for this’ – the obvious explanation was not enough – and I needed to look at the ‘repressed aggression’ towards the therapist that caused me to be late.
Although I’m now sceptical towards all forms of therapy and CBT comes in for a lot of criticism, it is a therapy that can be learned from a book and some of its techniques e.g. replacing negative thoughts with positive ones may be useful. Now if anyone were to ask me for advice as to whether they should enter therapy I would advise them to try to solve their problems as best they can without doing so and if they must do therapy then to be very careful who they choose. And to monitor therapy continuously and stop if there are problems. If no progress after six months, then to get out rather than throw good money after bad. The place where I worked was downsizing and as I was nearing retirement age I took early retirement this year, which means that I no longer can afford expensive therapy anyway. The work of mourning that you mention is something I can do without a therapist – I think that painting and writing would help. I’m a great fan of the books of Alice Miller and she did most of her own therapy – the work that really liberated her – through painting.
Btw I read somewhere that Woody Allen had been in analysis for 37 years and at one time his wife and daughters from ages 3 and 5 were in therapy and even the family dog was in analysis with a dog therapist! At some stage he (and the dog) must have woken up.
Resharpen, love your advice on reading thought-provoking books.
Gerald, so sorry for the waste of time and money spent! I don’t have time to write much now, but just had to respond your comment about how your therapist wanted to spend your paid time talking about herself and your feelings about her — forgive my therapy-speak, but this is a classic symptom of therapist narcissism/delusions of grandeur, and the therapist’s need to find a way to feel important. It is an outrageous scam that they charge people money for this — it’s bad enough to have to put up with this type of delusional self-important behavior let alone to pay for it!
Gerald, I’m very sorry for what you went through and certainly have been there. I think people are in the minority who admit to themselves that all that therapy amounted to a large hill of nothing. Most people in Industry itself seem to charge forward without questioning the validity of what they sell.
Furthermore, their world is so interpreted and twisted, it abandoned any human form. “I want to leave” can mean we need to stay. “I don’t like you” could signal we love our therapist but hate someone else, “I’m too dependent” might indicate we’re not open enough “this is getting me nowhere” means we’re on the verge of a breakthrough. The therapist office threshold is a rabbit hole we’ve fallen down.
Therapy often is presented in the states is a duty we must undergo to repair our mortal defects.
The more I move from the therapy culture, the more I wish I could erase THEIR concepts and framework they installed in my brain. First, I wish I’d never dwelt on my “unhappy childhood” at all, or labeled it as such. First, it’s impossible to reproduce it accurately. There were happy parts, horrifying parts, and MANY boring parts. What if we went to therapy and talked about the good parts of our week and recalled our happy memories. Who’s to say that wouldn’t be just as reparative?
It can be freeing to leave this culture and our evaluator and interpreter behind. My goal is to handle politics more skillfully, something I never found assistance for in therapy. I’ve discovered relief in creative work, yoga and various body therapies. Over the decades, I shed much of my childhood anxieties.
I’m doubtful therapy can speed up or implant human maturation. I think wisdom has to arrive the hard way.
I have been in therapy with someone for seven years and have paid her thousands of pounds. Here in uk not much therapy available on the national health system. I am about to stop. I feel bad about this as it has not done me much good. Apart from the financial loss, there is the loss of time and the raising of hopes. For about thirty years prior to starting with her I had been in various therapies on and off. Did not get anything from that either. The whole thing is replete with crass money making, ignorance, insensitivity and stupidity. However, I feel that I’m really the stupid one – there is an old saying that a fool and his money are easily parted. I cannot say that there was any explicit abuse, just nothing happening most of the time. And a lot of encouragement to stay in therapy when I wanted to leave – I was told that I would be running away from something painful that I was unwilling to face, that there are no ‘quick fixes’ (I’ve learned that there are no slow ones either), that there was likely to be a breakthrough round the corner if only I’d hang on in there, that I had a fear of dependency. The therapist I’m with now says that I need to grieve over my ‘lost childhood’ – I think I need to grieve over the loss of time and money and hope in this therapy. She has a tendency to focus on the things that don’t matter and ignore the things that do and anything else that doesn’t fit her theories.A lot of time has been wasted making mountains out of molehills and issues out of things that don’t matter very much, whilst ignoring the core problems that brought me to therapy. Looking at the research literature there’s little evidence that psychotherapy works. I intend to make my next session my last. I’m inclined to think that once damage has been done in childhood it can’t be undone -I’m sure some therapists know this, but persist in thinking that it can, after all like atheist priests it’s their livelihood. The best we can do is manage, perhaps through self -help and taking an interest in other things like art , music etc.
Gerald,
Your words, “I think I need to grieve over the loss of time and money and hope in this therapy. She has a tendency to focus on the things that don’t matter and ignore the things that do and anything else that doesn’t fit her theories. A lot of time has been wasted making mountains out of molehills and issues out of things that don’t matter very much, whilst ignoring the core problems that brought me to therapy,” describe much of my experience with therapy as well. So sad that so many of us go through this experience when seeking help.
The last time I tried therapy was a little helpful for me — and one of the things that was helpful was doing a little grieving for the losses incurred in therapy, as well as the exacerbation of some of the problems I sought therapy for. But just as I was beginning to see that this time therapy was at least a little helpful for me, the therapist declared that he didn’t think it was helping me, and started changing his behavior in ways that were obstructions to being helpful — in part because they seemed out of touch with reality as I know it. So the experience was like two steps forward and one backward.
So many therapists seem off in a different world than the one I know and live in. They seem to regard clients as objects to mold, or to get some kind of fix from (e.g., the thrill of “breakthrough,” or seeing the client “get it”). The field seems very insular, and self-centered (i.e., focused on the therapist’s wants/ideas/gratification).
Thanks all who have commented. What you have said has been helpful. I’m planning to have my last session this Wednesday. Even if I had the money to continue therapy, I would not want to. It has been so unproductive, though I’m sure she will try to persuade me to stay – ‘ there’s unfinished business’ ”you’re on the verge of a breakthrough’ ‘this will negate all the good (sic) work we’ve done’ ‘we need time for the termination phase’. I know I’ll have to remain steadfast.
I found this relevant to my issues with therapy:
http://therapyconsumerguide.com/how-do-i-know-if-my-therapy-is-working/#.UpEsddK8DXA
I wish I had done this several years ago and not left it till now. I don’t like the ‘since starting therapy’ wording of the last three questions – positive changes can happen during the time spent in therapy that are unrelated to the therapy e.g. moving to new address or to a better job or winning the lottery. Therapists sometimes want to claim credit for these changes. I started acting classes while in therapy and my therapist said I would not have done this without therapy. No, on the contrary I was thinking of doing this before therapy and would have done it anyway, even if I had not been in therapy – but she’s keen to claim credit.
I’ll let you know what happens on Wednesday.
Gerald,
Best wishes for a successful “termination” Wednesday. Thanks for the link to Marina’s article. Based on what you have said, it does sound as though it is relevant to your issues.
But it sure didn’t fit my experiences — when I read the introductory, “Your therapist is likable, compassionate, empathetic and supportive, and seems to understand your struggles. He (or she) gives you some good insight about your situation and you state of mind. You’ve become accustomed to seeing this person every week and even look forward to each session, but, despite all of the above, you are still suffering…” I had to say, no, that wasn’t my experience at all. I didn’t see most therapists I tried as compassionate, empathetic, or supportive; they didn’t seem to see me as a real person, and almost never provided anything that seemed insightful. I didn’t look forward to sessions; typically, I went back with fear and trepidation, only because I didn’t want to be a wimpy quitter.
However, the link at the bottom to Abuse vs Harm in Therapy made some very good points that I appreciate — my therapy experience was heavy on what Marina calls “failure of empathy” (basically, not caring about things that are important to me), but occasionally slipped into a gray area between that and abuse (e.g., the therapist who got her jollies by laughing at me when I tried to talk about shame, or the one whom a later therapist called a control freak).
I appreciate Marina’s making this distinction, because it is all too easy for therapy promoters to make the argument that if there is no abuse, there is no problem. As Marina points out, harm can come from failure of empathy. This seems to be what I have called “inaccurate empathy” — when the therapist “feels” empathy for the client, but what the therapist “feels” doesn’t reflect what the client thinks and feels. I remember when I first tried therapy, I often thought the therapists were telling me I was lying — but later reading suggested that they may have been trying to show me they understood me, when they really didn’t understand me.
Gerald, all the best with your goodbye this week. There’s power in seeing through her game, realizing she needs her clients rather than vice versa. ]
There were so much irrationality that tied my therapists and me together–all delusion on both sides. Therapy strongly solidified my self-concept as an outcast in an atonement for my defects, that I deserved to forfeit my adult status so the therapist could redeem me.
Mary S , disequilibrium 1, thanks for your support and comments. I think my therapist does have some compassion and empathy and is well-intentioned. But she does seem to lack understanding – one of my frequent complaints is that she doesn’t seem to understand what I am talking about and there is a lack of rapport that makes communication difficult. I see myself as a hsp (highly sensitive person, as defined by Elaine Aron) and an INFP on the Myers-Briggs type indicator. She says it helps for therapist and client to be different and that nobody can fully understand another. She seems a relatively non-sensitive extravert. For example, I told her that as a child I would sometimes wander off by myself and daydream. She said this was unhealthy and that I should have been playing and having fun with the other children. She was not curious about the content of the daydreams – just said this was morbid introspection and that I should have been relating to the other children. But daydreams like night dreams can say quite a lot about a person and their situation. I felt sad and angry that she had, it seemed to me, shown so little regard for my inner life. We are not on the same wavelength. I think money is of central importance to her and getting it regularly from me. I am hoping to put a stop to that tomorrow. I feel very sad that I have wasted so much time and money on this and yet paradoxically I’ll miss the opportunity to talk to another person in confidence about the deep and intimate matters that trouble me, even if it is not helping. Perhaps it’s the dependence – it’s become like a drug. Whether I’ll find another therapist I don’t know. I’ll leave that to the new year.
You are completely right to leave her. I was appalled that when you explained how, as a child, you would go off from others and daydream, & you wanted to explore the daydreams in therapy, she would simply tell you that you ‘SHOULD’ have been playing with other children. Where did she get this very simple, “idea”, “theory”, whatever-the-heck-it is??? As we say in the States, ‘out of a cracker jack box’??? And she rejected examining the daydreams? that is beyond awful.
I am a mother of two (almost grown) children. Perhaps it is because I had kids ‘late’ in life, as some would say, but unless one of them did something destructive (drugs, etc.), their personalities were their personalities. Children need our utter respect in that. If you tell a child that their behavior, whether it is ‘shyness’, a desire to be alone, a need to have friends, WHATEVER is WRONG you can definitely harm that child’s self-acceptance, which is one of the worst things you can do.
Plus, so many creative minds, for example, spent time alone as a child. Einstein didn’t talk until he was three, for example.
I think I might know what ‘drives’ your therapist. This is only a theory – but She sounds like Everyone Must Be Like Her (or like she was as a child, etc). She is either too self-centered, or is a very ‘simple’ person herself. Everyone must do the same ONE thing. also, she could have read this in one of those charming ‘theories’ of psychology texts. Like Piaget, or someone. That at a “particular stage of childhood, the child normally socializes with his peers. If there is contrary behavior, the child may be Malformed as an adult.” And she may think that if a Book says it, it means it is a holy theory, so that it just MUST be true. I personally have known two friends – both therapists – who actually did this when they read a book containing ‘ideas’/’rules’ spun by some author. Instead of sitting back, and pondering what they said, they completely accepted it as Truth.
And also – I may be completely wrong. I don’t know her. BUT I will say this: Neither I, nor you, nor Anyone in therapy should ever, for one minute, have to come to the point where WE are analyzing THEM – our therapists. We did not pay money for this. Our roles should not be reversed – this is beyond ridiculous. When we go to a doctor, and see that he has a cold, do WE tell HIm/Her how to treat/cure the cold? I am a lawyer – never has a person come to me to tell me that I have written my will incorrectly, or that whatever I know about the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare (a new specialty of mine) is garbage (or poppycock, as you might say?).
And I need to mention that you were exactly right in trying to analyze Her, because she wasn’t helping you, and you were trying to figure out why. I have done the same, for almost each and every therapist I have ever seen. What else CAN we do??
Once again, it saddens me that you continue to feel badly about the time you have spent seeing her/the money you have paid, etc. I have limited experience, but I feel that perhaps what has paid a large part in you seeing her is due to culture. I am an American, however have had comments made to me by a few British people re: their seeing therapists in their home country. In each case, the person has told me how very ‘difficult’ it was to be in therapy there. And they had to absolutely ensure that no one else ever knew.
One was a friend of mine who had a lot of personal problems, was working in a company, and one day her boss (who had had some therapeutic training) approached her & suggested that he could ‘listen’ and counsel her. She agreed, but they had to do this strictly after hours – it was not just because they weren’t working then; she explained that it was because therapy was SO frowned upon in England. Neither could breath it to a soul. (And NO, my fellow Americans, he did NOT try to seduce her!).
Another experience I had, was when a man told me that he & his wife (both from England) were having marital problems, and decided to get marital counseling. He explained, once again, that it would look just ‘terrible’ if anyone knew they were doing this. So they were forced to see a counselor in an entirely different town from the one they were living in – to ensure no one they knew would find out.
Does any of this sound familiar to you, Gerald? If so, even a little of it, then how could you have left the therapist any sooner? In the States, for the most part, anyway, it is acceptable to be in therapy. therefore, I, myself, when I had a problem with a therapist always asked friends what they thought of the situation. This really helped me decide to leave a therapist. (I was lucky and had good and wise friends). Who could you tell to discuss your problems with her?
Please let me know if I am wrong about any of this. I really want to know. At any rate, I give you tremendous credit in leaving her. It is NEVER easy to do this, no matter what the therapist has said or done, or whatever your culture happens to think of therapy.
Therapists’ personalities likely are not common in the general public: they have the excessive confidence and magical thinking they understand us, know what’s good for us and rescue other people’s lives. They take charge; they exert false leadership. They see everyone else as disordered, yet fail to look in the mirror. It’s unlikely many of us will be like them, nor would we want to be.
I initially went to therapy when I realized my family wasn’t typical. But primarily I wanted to be something I wasn’t–one of the cool kids–and had the mistaken idea therapy could help. I deferred to stronger personalities, which was just about everybody. But therapy certainly didn’t help. It locked me with an artificially strong person, a superparent to whom I was accountable. It left me feeling overwhelmed and persecuted. It taught me mechanical lessons like “setting boundaries.” My two years of psychoanalysis pulled me into my own magical–borderline psychotic–thinking. In short, it gave me completely misguided lessons in the social ease I hoped for.
The big word these days is “trigger.” People avoid their triggers like they have to be hot-house orchids living under just the right conditions.
I deal with people occasionally who see persecution and criticism behind every tree. They “draw their boundaries.” I unfortunately identify and wonder if some therapist instilled this in them. Therapy-think is so distorted.
I felt guilt leaving therapy because it felt like an almost religious obligation. I MUST perfect myself. Its role in my life was utterly irrational and the therapists definitely were partners in that creation.
Disequ1 wrote:
“Therapists’ personalities likely are not common in the general public: they have the excessive confidence and magical thinking they understand us, know what’s good for us and rescue other people’s lives. They take charge; they exert false leadership. They see everyone else as disordered, yet fail to look in the mirror. It’s unlikely many of us will be like them, nor would we want to be.”
This is well said, but the question arises as to why their personalities are different. I think there may be several factors:
1. You need to be weak at critical thinking to train as a psychotherapist, because there is now a lot of hard data showing that psychotherapy (whichever version) works little better than placebo. So, even before becoming therapists, they were probably a bit weak on rational thought.
2. They probably enjoy their practice for the position of superiority and power over others (which they of course see as being for the good of these poor, needy others). Probably almost everybody enjoys superiority and power to some extent, but as the years roll by the therapists get hooked on it.
3. It must be very disheartening to see that one’s lifetime commitment to helping others is largely unsuccessful. The only solution to this is to believe fervently that one is doing a brilliant job, and that the lack of progress is the fault of the client.
I agree with Swissbrit46 that the quoted paragraph captures a lot about what is problematic with therapy. I would add a couple of things to her list of reasons why/how therapists’ personalities may be different:
4. They have a strong need/craving for intimacy. (I recall noting this mentioned — in an oh-so-nice-to-therapists way in an article I once read on why therapists go into the field). My experience is that the combination of “need for control” and “need for intimacy” can be particularly harmful.
5. They have the gossip/nosy-parker/excessively-interested type of personality — in other words, they get their kicks from hearing juicing accounts of peoples’ lives.
I initially went to therapy looking for something like a role model — someone who would set a good example. In reality, I encountered the opposite — people who (for the most part) set bad examples.
Gerald,
Yes, I see from what you have said here that indeed your therapist had a failure of empathy for you. Being on different wavelengths has been so typical of my therapy experience — a phenomenon that seems to occur much more often with therapists than with other people. I naively believed that therapists’ training would help them understand individual differences, but they so often seem to think in terms of “if you’re not like me, then you are not normal and need to change to be more like me.”
resharpen
Thanks for your response. One of my difficulties is a tendency to be shy and isolate from other people. I think my therapist feels that she has to confront this ‘pattern’. So in her book socializing, spending time with friends and engaging in confident extraverted behaviour is good; being alone, staying in to read a book or watch tv, not speaking in social situations, daydreaming – well, that’s bad. I should be confronting those patterns if I’m to become a confident person with high self esteem. When I took acting classes and then went on stage performing in amateur dramatics she was delighted – and incredibly surprised. She tried to take credit for me doing this, but it was something I’d been wanting to do for some time and would have done anyway as I have an interest in theatre and literature. I have heard that quite a few actors are shy, so it should not be all that surprising. Still does not make it that much easier for me in everyday social situations.
On therapy in England you are right that it is largely taboo, except among more liberal minded people. Generally, you are considered weak to need such help. The stiff upper lip is still in evidence: chin up old boy! Princess Diana was in therapy and I think it may have lowered some people’s estimation of her. I have told one or two close friends, but not others – certainly not members of my family. They’d think I was mad! Also there is too much baggage with family members: old spectres that could be raised – best let sleeping dogs lie.
disequilibrium1
Therapy is certainly not a religious obligation in the uk. You are expected to fix your problems yourself or better still not to have any in the first place. Compared to Americans most English people seem emotionally illiterate. If anyone asks how you’re feeling, the expected response is fine or ok, unless you’re physically in pain or suffering from a cold or flu.
I went through psychoanalytic therapy and found it useless and at times abusive, with the therapist accusing me of being ‘aggressive, nasty and dirty’ – this was supposed to be an ‘interpretation’. Every detail was analysed to death – if I was a minute late or if I preceded or followed her up the stairs. A huge waste of time and money. She accused me once of criticizing her profession! I said ‘Is your profession sacrosanct -should it be immune from criticism?’. Some therapists, on the defensive, talk disparagingly of ’embittered therapy bashers’. Well why should it be protected from criticism, if that is what is meant by therapy bashing?
Gerald, I somewhat muddled my communication. I…think…nonverbal and subtle messages are constantly transmitted between people around control, social hierarchy and roles. This is especially overflowing in the unbalanced mentoring in the between therapist and client. The therapist has so many tools to keep the client hooked, including exploiting the servility many of us felt to parents and teachers. I felt I was demeaned under the tutelage of my therapists and a duty to repair my defects, which were primarily around social awkwardness. These feelings weren’t entirely from my worldview; my therapists stoked this.
One signal of relationship status, of course, is who is allowed to criticize whom. I observe that therapists rarely accept criticism of themselves or their profession gracefully. One could speculate extensively about the root of their defensiveness.
I can’t document the effects of therapy on the American culture, but my sense is that it has been a pervasive one and not for the good. So many people are “wounded” and suing everyone in sight. Television has so many therapy-like segments, with subjects confessing, expressing and exposing their underclothes before millions of viewers. Good thing our forefathers already explored the West, because these days they’d be pouring out their self-doubts and spend years recovering from the PTSD of a bear growling at them.
One signal of relationship status, of course, is who is allowed to criticize whom. I observe that therapists rarely accept criticism of themselves or their profession gracefully. One could speculate extensively about the root of their defensiveness.
Disequilibrium – How true this is. I could never get any constructive criticism across to any therapist I saw. Moreover, and sadly, people who buy into therapy are the same way. I have mentioned a dear friend of mine who is, in my view, addicted to therapy. She and I get into heated debates once in a while and she just never gets my main points. She truly treats therapy as a spiritual experience if not a religion. So much so that she dismisses much of what I say about myself. The last time I saw her we discussed something very personal about myself that she has known for many years. I always thought she was dismissive of what I said because it made her uncomfortable (nothing bad – just painful – but not anything I care to burden anyone here about). What I discovered this last time is that she had basically “psychoanalyzed” what I claim away. When I told her for the umpteenth time she actually had the gall to ask me if I was “sure”. Well, it’s something I’ve been dealing with most of my life and have given it more than enough consideration to know how I feel about it. I am still incensed that anyone, no matter how close, would question something that is very personal and something I have struggled with for decades. The good of this is that this helps me articulate more clearly my problem with too many therapists – they not only can project their personal struggles but they too many times define their patients rather than allow their patients to come to their own definition of themselves. So -Gerald – my advice is to run as far away as you can. There are so many alternatives and you can resolve your issues yourself by a myriad of means. I spent nine years, twenty-thousand dollars plus, and with the shadow of thinking I was inadequate both for what others told me I was as well as for not “getting” therapy. What I now realize is that I was basically fine and just protecting myself from what I knew not to be the truth about myself. As with most human endeavors there are good things, and true things, but there is also too much garbage spewed out at the expense of too many frail and sincere people.
Thanks all for your comments. I regret that I did not completely make the break. I said I found her too seductive, not sexually, but in trying to keep me there. My therapist has left the door open and I have to email as to whether I want one or two more sessions in order to complete termination properly and discuss future options. Making a clean break is difficult. She was not particularly shocked at my stopping as I have discussed this many times in sessions already. I think dependence is an issue here, perhaps both hers and mine.
Gerald – I really understand you agreeing to send her an email. With that said, PLEASE know that what you label your ‘dependence’ is N O R M A L. Once again, please read the book “The Betrayal Bond” by Patrick Carnes. It discusses that a bond is built between two people, and becomes stronger if the relationship becomes ‘troubled’. It then can become that much harder to break.
Gerald, I agree with resharpen, what you describe has happened to many of us–the reason why we’re likely on this blog now unraveling it. There are so many “messages” that therapy imparts, leaving me feeling beholden and servile to someone more powerful, someone who in fact is simply school graduate performing a role. I felt like the sinner before a priest –and I’m not Catholic. I felt like a student not properly dismissed from school, a child who ran away from home.
But I also tell myself this is the OPPOSITE of what I want, I want to be an autonomous adult of free will, not someone’s disciple, particularly someone who knows no more, probably less, about life than I do.
My bad therapy happened years ago and the exploration revived after seeing documentaries about Jonestown and the worshipers under the control of a powerful madman..
Dependency is normal because we were all children and students. Therapy puts us back in that role.
There’s a UK book “Shouldn’t I Be Feeling Better by Now,” (which is expensive stateside.) Another book, Ellen Plasil’s Therapist, is a woman’s emergence from one of the most extreme cases, a seduction and cult. My reading about cults also has been helpful.
I’m not the first to say therapy is a cult for two, a brainwashing. The process hooks into powerful and primitive stuff. If I got my money’s worth from therapy, it was the process of unfastening its influence.
Here’s an article by the controversial Art Janov, ironically, disparaging OTHER therapies as cult like
http://cigognenews.blogspot.com/2012/12/psychotherapy-as-cult.html
and an article making parallel accusations against primal therapy:
http://debunkingprimaltherapy.com/is_primal_therapy_a_cult/
Thank you resharpen and disequilibrium1.
There has been some discussion on this site about abuse and harm. It is sometimes difficult to tell them apart and often they are overlapping. Not sure to what extent I have been abused or harmed. I have suffered most from therapy that is ineffective and expensive, but I think this in itself amounts to a form of harm, given the waste of time and money and the raising and then dashing of hopes. Looking at all my therapies over the years I calculate that I have spent over £40,000 in English pounds (equivalent to over $65,000 US dollars). It could in fact be nearer £50k ($82k). I don’t think I have gained very much from this, if anything at all! There just seems to be something unethical about this, even though you may say that I entered freely into these arrangements with my eyes open. Unfortunately the therapies did not live up to their promise. It could just be that I was unlucky enough not to find the right people and that some of the practitioners were just too unskilled. Also, regular and reliable payment is a perverse incentive for therapists to keep going with a client, even when they know it’s useless.
I was a year in primal therapy in the nineties with a therapist trained by Janov. I think the therapy did not go deep enough and never really reached the ‘primal pain’. I think that to some extent Janov is like the pot that calls the kettle black, but I can identify when he says: “That is the tragedy, and the patient stays for years thinking the therapist knows best. Since he makes his money keeping you in therapy he has an interest in the therapeutic longevity of the patient. It is never expressed or even acknowledged but it is there. “. I know that primal therapy can go on and on for years, but I was sensible enough to quit after one year as it was not helping me. I have been told by some therapists that I am resistant because I am too much in my head and not enough in my feelings.
As I said in a previous post I’m not sure that what is done – our childhood trauma – can be undone. Therapies that try to do this involve the client regressing and not being like an adult (of course, you ‘re expected to pay like an adult). This trauma can be so far back it is difficult to reach. CBT which focuses on the here and now and is practical and realistic may be more helpful. Where therapy is successful I believe it is often due to the placebo effect. And unfortunately that often depends on the perceived authority of the doctor/therapist. So a potentially exploitative / abusive situation. I will try to get hold of the Patrick Carnes book. I’m sure it will be helpful. I’m aware of ‘Shouldn’t I Be Feeling Better by Now’ and have seen a bit of it on Amazon. It’s a collection of accounts by different people of their experiences in therapy. The first person says she was exhorted by her therapist ‘to get her anger out’, but when she expressed it towards him, he didn’t like it!
Gerald, I identify with much of what you describe. I too live life mostly head-first, perhaps less so over the years, but finally concluded there is no grand yardstick of the ideal traits or characteristics. Anyone measuring us is full of bunk. I’m originally from Texas, and yes, I fall far short of the image of woman as a professional cheerleader. We’re inevitably tall on one thing and short on another.
As I explored in the original essay, I had co-therapists I deem outright unethical in their out-of-control insults, but the rest of therapy was more benignly fraudulent. I wanted more competence, autonomy, to feel more adult. Therapy left me feeling regressed and self-critical. I wanted to enlarge my social life, Therapy left me more isolated, ruminating, self-pitying and persecuted–WORSE friendship material rather than better. Therapy fostered magical thinking–the therapist as a powerful guru who would deliver some arcane “healing.” I thought if I excavated my childhood, swept my closet, exposed some buried memory to the light, I’d be unchained. I “did the work” so “wanted to change.” The sum of it felt like an empty paper bag.
I’m stingy with the word abuse, reserving it for larger-scale human atrocities. I can call this deception, a benign scam. Like you, I entered the relationship freely and my largest self-recrimination perhaps is that I gifted my swindlers with their weapon–my self-doubts, hopes and personal lore.
Someone correct me, but I doubt any of the conventional wisdom therapy is proven:that we have to regress to mature, that we have to excavate memories to free ourselves, that primal therapy get us in touch with anything. Had I consulted a Tarot reader on Second Avenue, signed up for a crystal ritual or even done acupuncture, I’d know the rule of caveat emptor.
But psychotherapy carries the authentication, the imprimatur of medical and academic communities. As I experienced it, it was all Cracker Jack box pseudoscience.
I agree with so many of the sentiments expressed here, especially those exploring how awful it feels to have voluntarily succumbed to a pseudoscientific scam that can promote harmful thought patterns that are difficult to shake, and that often causes more harm than good.
Btw, it’s Thanksgiving here in the US, and one of the things I’m thankful for is the thoughtful discussion in this blog community. 🙂
I’m very thankful to everyone here as well. Your thoughts certainly have helped me understand my own better. There were so many layers to what happened, it’s a mixmaster.
Thanks to all of you for your comments and support. I’ve done so much therapy out of desperation and a desire to be different and a continuing hope that this can be achieved. I’m still a sucker. I came across the following:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2058417/Penninghame-Process-Extreme-therapy-involves-enacting-birth.html
Upon reading this I was immediately tempted… yes.. change your life in seven days! Not sure the journalist got much out of it. She learned to stop blaming other people and take responsibility for herself – hackneyed phrases in the therapy industry. And she felt more ’emotionally empowered and self-contained’, whatever that means. So was it worth it? Perhaps one can only judge subjectively. Strangely, the placebo effect seems to work better when people pay more for something. This has been found with painkillers – the cheaper brands are less effective than the more expensive ones (even though they are chemically the same). There is a self justifying tendency at work here – if I’ve paid a lot for something it must work.
Some of the comments below the article suggest the whole thing is nonsense, but.. well.. I’m still tempted. Trouble is don’t have the money.
Happy Thanksgiving
Maybe we humans are always in search of ways to have a new skin. Look at many of us with new outfits, accessories, shoes. We look in the mirror and see ourselves walking into the room a little taller. I’m that way with writing books and workshops. The next thing will inspire me–until I meet the same problems again
I have received phone calls that have changed my life. I’ve seen my own evolution as I’ve gotten older. I’ve seen good things rise from bad situations and discomforts. Then the new situations create their own challenges, the novelty wears off, the new outfit becomes the worn one and there’s something beyond to quest for. It’s difficult enough to steer my own life because I can’t always know what’s around the corner. I believe the guidance anyone else can give me is limited.
Gerald, mind you I’m reflexively critical, but I read that article with a jaundiced eye, particularly, the author’s therapized thought process and the regression. An extreme “rebirthing” technique had a literally tragic outcome in Colorado a few years ago, yet practitioners continue staunchly to defend it.
My theory–I can pull theories out of a cracker jack box too 🙂 –is that regression, reliving a childlike state, leaves me more subdued, more enfeebled, LESS in direction of my own destiny. There are positive aspects of childhood, of course. But childhood also is a time of abject powerlessness, evaluation and stern mandates, a era I mostly want to escape.
I think that the therapy industry has to be seen within the context of the consumer industry. In marketing terms, if people are happy, self-contained, not looking for external validation, are ‘self-actualizing’ they are not very good for business. People with a strong sense of self and with a strong value system know that the latest car, the biggest house, the most expensive clothes etc are not intrinsically going to make you any happier.
Even if a person is not motivated by being richer, say, they might be motivated by being better looking or stronger or fitter. Or they might be motivated by being cleverer or being very talented in a certain area.
I’m not saying there is anything wrong with any of those things – on the contrary there can be enormous pleasure and satisfaction in learning and developing skills, talents and so on. Not to mention rewarding work and hobbies.
What I am saying is that if you measure your own self worth by external validation, you will tend to be somewhat dissatisfied. In time, someone else will come along who is richer, or cleverer or more talented.
As parenting is a job for which you receive no training and furthermore is a job that is open to all, irrespective of temperament and suitability, it stands to reason that there will be more than a few people who emerge from childhood with a poor sense of self. They will not have received appropriate validation from their parents.
If you watch the ‘still face’ experiment (sorry can’t remember the precise name, I will find it and post it here as it’s fascinating) you will see a mother interacting with her one year old baby. The baby’s responses are incredibly sophisticated. Very fine tuned to the mother’s facial expressions. When the mother deliberately adopts a blank face, the baby goes through a sophisticated repertoire of facial expressions and behaviours to attract her attention and seek her approval/responses before becoming distressed and then starting to give up – literally to lose hope.
If this is how finely tuned a one year old is, imagine how enormous is the potential for ‘mis-calibration’ by parents over an 18-20 year period. Even the most well meaning and altruistic parents cannot always get it right.
So you have this vast army of walking wounded seeking to be ‘fixed’. Hoping that the therapist will somehow miraculously be able to fix the childhood wounds. In marketing terms, this represents incredible business.
Then on top of all that you have a society where people are continually being judged – for their looks, their status and so on. Achievement at school is all about getting certain grades, performing to a certain level and so on.
And it’s not good for business if you can ‘fix’ people quickly. If people are dissatisfied – about their looks, their personality and so on, then this feeds into huge industries.
Not necessarily saying we have to go back to neanderthal times but I do think it is helpful to look at therapy as part of the consumer industry.
The therapy course I did was all about keeping students in their place, feeding insecurities, ‘rewarding’ strange behaviours. It was truly dysfunctional although I did learn a lot. Because I tend to be unconfrontational, diligent and considerate of others, I found myself being cast into the scapegoat role. It could and would have been fascinating to have explored this and the different ways of behaving in the group. But the group leaders were so dysfunctional that they too tried to scapegoat me. They knew what my achilles heel was and they were nasty enough to want to exploit it.
I’m not for a minute suggesting that all therapists are that mean. But by playing the role of the critical parent who can never be pleased, the therapist can keep the client hooked – the client once again becomes the child seeking approval, validation, love and so on.
The therapist I saw was a complete cow. Thankfully, I twigged her ‘game’ after around 8 sessions. She was playing with me much as a cat would play with a mouse. She was incredibly judgmental and critical – lacing in empathy or compasssion. Why are people like that allowed to train as therapists. They simply do not have the right temperament and are more likely to cause harm than heal.
j.robs, I too can see therapy, the entire self-growth industry as a commodity, and I don’t see too large a gulf between the blatant infomercial hucksters and what can be promised by accredited therapists.
I experienced that I therapist doesn’t have to be outright mean to be manipulative and controlling. A practitioner can be outwardly sweet and kind, but still play that parent role, still explicitly or implicitly promise a “fix,” and still communicate a supremacy to which the client inevitably falls short. It’s the therapist who always holds The Secret.
j.robs,
Your post says a lot that really hits the mark. On top of it, the therapy societies have “committees for the promotion of the profession.”
Your comment about the therapist playing with you much as a cat would play with a mouse really hit home — I have indeed thought of my experience with one therapist (the one who laughed at me at particularly inappropriate times) in exactly that way.
As to your comment, “why are people like that allowed to train as therapists” — the answer seems to be that there are no standards (or very poor standards) to enter therapist training. Some “schools” are really degree mills, and even the programs in standard universities seem to have little in the way of entrance requirements.
That brings to mind something that recently appeared on the Good Therapy blog (at http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/motivational-interviewing-specific-or-general-method-1230137). One quote in particular:
“Empathy in particular is a skill that varies widely across therapists and is associated with client outcomes (Moyers and Miller, in press). But to call such factors “nonspecific” is merely to say that we haven’t done our homework. If indeed such relational factors exert such a large influence on our clients’ welfare, we ought to be specifying, measuring, and teaching these skills, at which point they become specific factors. They are certainly not equally present in all therapies and therapists, and it is unclear just how “common” they are.”
I was able to find the reference — it seemed to be quoting research that backed up the claim. So at least some people in the therapy professions seem to believe there is room for improvement — but I suspect they are in the minority.
j.robs, disequilibrium1: agree there is huge market – whether you are too fat or too thin, too loud or too quiet, have a problem with public speaking or assertiveness at work, therapy is the answer. And most of them would argue that it is not a commodity like any other. It’s not about having a bigger car or house or about appearances – it’s about you! Changing who you are. At least with material things you generally know what you’re getting. But with this, well you pay your money…. and…it could be abuse, exploitation, the endless chasing of a dream. I was told in a group once that I had a phobia of spending money – a serious phobia in our consumer society. Unfortunately I think I’ve overcome it!
This is article cites some old sources. It makes me feel like I’ve discovered the wheel here, yet the wheel has been some secret.
“These misguided myth-makers have encouraged us to believe that the infinite mysteries of the mind are as amenable to their professed expertise as plumbing or an automobile engine. This is rubbish. In fact these talk therapists, practitioners of cosmetic psychiatry, have no relevant training or skills in the art of living life. It is remarkable that they have fooled us for so long. … Cowed by their status as men of science, deferring to their academic titles, bewitched by the initials after their names, we, the gullible, lap up their pretentious nonsense as if it were the gospel truth. We must learn to recognize them for what they are – possessors of no special knowledge of the human psyche, who have, nonetheless, chosen to earn their living from the dissemination of the myth that they do indeed know how the mind works”
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/psychoth.htm
Here’s their gateway page. I can be thankful I was never caught in psychiatry, medication.
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/
There is a petition going around to boycott the DSM. I thought those who participate in discussions on this blog would be interested in signing it. If you really want to fight harm in the field of mental health, here is your chance. This is the link to the petition
http://www.change.org/petitions/boycott-the-dsm-a-human-rights-issue
Thanks. Someone tell me what is a narcissistic personality and who decides what amount of ego-centrism is disordered. Of course excessive selflessness (whoever judges that) is another disorder.
disequilibrium1 – A narcissist is a man (women are not traditionally diagnosed this way), who cannot process that others do not love him and that everyone thinks he is wonderful just as he perceives himself to be wonderful.This is further broken down into men who mentally aggrandize their appearance or their intellects. Of course, most people have some degree of what would be called narcissistic tendencies – but to be diagnosed as such you have at least 7 or more of such tendencies. It is thought to result from an early childhood emotional trauma where a disconnect occurs and the ability to perceive others’ dislike or disapproval (even when justified) is shut down to protect the ego. It is considered “incurable” because the person is so shut off to reality about themselves and others’ viewpoints.
Though I am critical of psychotherapy that does not mean I think there is never any truth to the observation to human behavior. Having been around a couple of people as previously described I don’t doubt the malady. The problem being, that any veritable diagnosis (as with all problems) is apt to such subjectivity as well as the fact that we all are subject to different personality traits at different times and points in our lives.
Thanks GW. I certainly see that diagnosis bandied a great deal about people someone doesn’t like, even (especially by) professionals. Since therapists only observe their clients in a specific, highly-staged situation, and clients usually arrive with the specific expectations, the laboratory is far from scientific.
I found this link interesting–therapists explaining why their clients are—stuck— justifying why therapy is failing. It’s interesting to see how confidently this crew thinks they understand human mind and life in general.
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Why-do-people-get-stuck-1055237.S.207178850?qid=6804fc3c-353f-406e-89ea-dcf0337a20e1&goback=.gmp_1055237&_mSplash=1
Here are more of their discussions which are heavy on self-promotion, and occasionally bash current clients:
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Links-Shrinks-Therapists-Psychologists-Coaches-1055237?trk=groups_most_popular-h-dsc&goback=.gmp_1055237
“How a Warm Beer Can be Better than Psychotherapy” – a GREAT article:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/08/21365924-bottle-of-warm-beer-more-effective-than-psychotherapy-german-official-sparks-outrage?lite
That is funny, and true. I can think of hundreds of things that are better than psychotherapy.
A UK therapist has founded a blog called PsyCommons. Though this UK movement resisting mental health regulation is not a discussion in the US,author Denis Postle discusses a larger concept–that of knowledge and power sharing. I’ll post links to his blog and a video that explain his ideas.
http://psycommons.wordpress.com/
Denis Postle has been involved in the UK Independent Practitioner’s Network for some time. Yvonne Bates, the compiler of Shouldn’t I Be Feeling Better by Now, has also been part of that Network. The Network has (had ?) both an online journal (edited by Postle) and a print version (edited by Bates), both named Ipnosis (the Ip presumably standing for Independent practitioner), although the content was different. The online version seems to still exist; I am not sure about the print version. The print version (with which I am more familiar) published articles submitted by clients; I submitted some articles a few years ago, which Yvonne published. I didn’t subscribe to the journal, but received complimentary copies of the issues in which I had articles published, so was able to get a good idea of the journal from those issues. My impressions:
The Network’s central focus seems to be opposing state regulation of therapy. This attracts quite a variety of practitioners, including some who are essentially cult leaders — in other words, some who most strongly need to be kicked out of the profession. Many of those involved in the Network seem to be either ardently (often naively) humanistic/rogerian and/or postmodernist. The network seemed to have too many extremists (“This is the only right way”) for my tastes. Unfortunately, therapy in general seems to have many extremists; the IPN seemed to exclude and oppose some of them (especially those of a cognitive behavioral persuasion), but embrace others (especially of a humanistic or postmodern bent; Yvonne seemed to fall in the naively humanistic category). So a lot of well-intended-but-misguided, with a few really bad characters tossed in. Pretty disappointing.
I was treated very badly by an NHS counselling psychologist.
He had (unchecked) counter transference reactions toward me and was also attracted to me.
He became very sadistic (hostile counter transference).
I complained to the BPS and the NHS healthcare trust and he did his very best to discredit and pathologize me.
Then,adding insult to my already considerable injury, he wrote about me in a textbook called The Handbook of Professional and Ethical Practice.
He attempted to use the text book as a vehicle to try to clear his name amongst his colleagues.
He described me as ‘delusional’ and implied I was a nutter who had a prior history of fabricating complaints against health professionals.
He was a narcissistic,rotten,nasty piece of work.
Fiona, I’m so sorry that you had to go through that experience. My therapist successfully discredited my complaint by painting me disconnected to reality, despite my history working in responsible jobs, home ownership etc. I believe publishing our case without our consent would be considered a violation of confidentiality in the US.
The more I read the more I’m convinced that my destructive therapist and failed complaint was other than the proverbial rotten apple in the barrel. I find psychological literature arrogant, dehumanizing and condescending to the public. There’s scant literature on harmful therapy. And the bit of literature I’ve read on client-consumer complaints and lawsuits struck me as gooey-sympathetic to the therapist (take care of yourself) while portraying the client as crazy, menacing and vindictive. The recent response I received to an ethics book is downright entertaining.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R21EO2WEQ56PJX/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0415833396&linkCode=&nodeID=&tag=
I don’t see my therapist as a rotten apple in the barrel. I believe there’s foul air at the apple warehouse.
Gerald. I enjoyed your headache analogy. That stuckness thread linked to earlier reminds me of therapists running in circles like the Keystone Cops, colliding with each other, creating frenzy, but not understanding how little they understand.
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Why-do-people-get-stuck-1055237.S.207178850?qid=6804fc3c-353f-406e-89ea-dcf0337a20e1&goback=.gmp_1055237&_mSplash=1
I am sorry to hear of this Fiona. I think a lot of psychopaths and sociopaths are drawn to this ‘profession’. Many have issues of their own they have not dealt with. I assume if it was NHS you did not have to pay for this abuse. These various organisations such as the BPS and IPN (mentioned in the post above) are basically trade unions which are there to protect their members. They have little or no concern for the consumer.
I left long-term therapy over a month ago and I am glad I did, having paid thousands for very little – a complete rip-off. I’ve no intention of going back into therapy although I’m planning to help myself through various self-help approaches. I think I’m likely know best what my problems are and how best to address them.
I was interested in the discussion on ‘stuckness’ on one of the links in disequilibrium’s post of December 16. People are sometimes stuck because they have been persuaded to believe they can change something which is difficult or impossible to change. For example to transform from an introvert into an extravert. There is evidence that personality is based on temperament which has a strong genetic component. So trying to change this can be like trying to change your height or eye colour. In other cases the therapy is simply ineffective, often addressing something the wrong way.
An example of an approach that is likely not to work is where a doctor prescribes indigestion tablets for a headache (the following few paragraphs are entirely fictitious and intended to illustrate my point). After taking the tablets for two years, the patient complains that they are not working,but the doctor says to keep taking them as one day they will – after all therapy takes time. When the headaches get worse, the patient is told that they may need to get worse before they can get better. However if the patient keeps complaining, the doctor becomes impatient and accuses him of being ‘stuck’ and asks ‘Are you really taking them – patients can be devious you know. Well if you are, then maybe we need to increase the dose. I know this will cost more, but there’s no gain without pain’. After ten years the patient still has the headache and is still paying the doctor for the, by now high dosage indigestion tablets, which have in the meantime given rise to some nasty side effects that have required additional and expensive treatment; and of course there are continuing discussions about the patent’s stuckness which the doctor puts down to an unconscious wish to remain unwell (resistance).
A great deal of research has been done on the effectiveness of this treatment for headaches, which has found it to be largely ineffective. However there are vocal groups of practitioners defending it: some say that outcome research is not applicable to this type of treatment as it cannot take account of all the variables, others claim that headaches are caused mainly by indigestion and so to treat the headache directly would be to ignore the causes and so the patient would never really get well, although the symptom would be alleviated – this is the well-known phenomenon of the ‘flight into health’ where the patient gets well too soon, but is not properly cured (in other words the doctor has not had long enough to milk them of their life savings). One study found that, in treating headaches, nurses dispensing headache pills had greater success than doctors prescribing indigestion tablets. This was dismissed as nonsense – how could nurses with fewer qualifications be more successful than highly qualified doctors and, besides, the underlying causes were not being addressed.
Some practitioners mention surveys that indicate consumer satisfaction; however, many patients are lonely and appreciate having someone to talk to on a regular basis. Others can cite many cases where patients got well. In one case after taking the indigestion tablets for two years the patient was cured (it so happened that she read in a magazine that there was some evidence that heart problems could be prevented by taking aspirin and started taking it as a preventive measure); in another case, after a year a man was cured (it was of course a coincidence that at the time he moved out of a stressful job); and in another case the patient was cured some months after starting to take the tablets (which coincided with their move away from living next to a noisy airport).
There have some clinicians, frustrated by the stuckness of their patients, who have resorted to extreme measures such as blood letting and using leeches, and there has been similar anecdotal evidence of success in some of these cases (even though a few ended up in intensive care), but no randomised controlled trials have been done yet. One physician told his patient to ‘keep taking the snake oil, one day you’ll get well!’ I can say that all these doctors were successful at what they did – transferring money from their patients’ bank accounts into their own!
I have been reading Paul Moloney’s book ‘The Therapy Industry’. He concludes the chapter ‘Does Therapy Work?’ by saying that there is no consistent good quality evidence that any type of therapy can outperform a well designed placebo; and that only one observation is upheld: that confident and emotionally warm professionals are more appreciated by their clients, and get better results, a statement that applies equally to politicians, salespeople and prostitutes. [My words: The last in my view a more respectable ‘profession’].
Love the analogy, Gerald! Brilliant and spot-on.
It seems that the way people react to useless or damaging therapy today is not unlike the way people viewed lobotomies in the past. I just read an article about it here:
and
http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/archive/archive_home.cfm?volumeID=27&editionID=235&ArticleID=2403
Yes he was definitely a narcissistic sociopath.
False allegations against therapists are extremely rare as is “delusional transference” however almost everyone seemed more than willing to accept his version of events and take everything he said at face value.
It happened in 1999 and I actually feel very sorry for him because he is an inadequate liar in an unhappy marriage incapable of truly loving a woman and gets his jollies deliberately sexualizing therapy sessions with female clients he finds attractive.
What a loser!
There’s a book actually selling the idea that therapy went awry is because of delusional transference, as if the therapist can do no wrong. These –sages–fail to explain how the “delusional” client manages her life the other 167 hours a week if she allegedly transforms into a quivering pile of psychosis with her therapist. A similar accusation was hurled at me.
The ad hominem comments around my Amazon review strike me as typical therapist arrogance. Therapists rise in fury when we fail to appreciate their beneficence. In that case, the discussion was over an ethics book!
Like you, I assume the profession attracts many vainglorious narcissists. I also suspect their training sometimes condescendingly reinforces the client as a piteous object–resistance to be forced into submission to their magnificent care.
He knew damn well I want “delusional”.
Pompous self regarding liar.
He also used everything I had told him in therapy sessions to discredit me.
The one thing I find very comforting is that I strongly feel some of his colleagues believed me as apparently he was ostracised at his group supervision LOL
He mentions it in his chapter in the Handbook of Professional and Ethical Practice.
His p*** poor contribution (written with his ‘wife’) is entitled ‘Complaints’
Fiona, I’d be beyond furious to be a case study. My scoundrel ultimately got himself appointed to the state ethics committee himself. This isn’t the first time that the “moralist” doesn’t follow his own sermons.
I’m glad you got at least some satisfaction through his colleagues’ reactions to him.
Demonstrations of professionals circling the wagons (US wild west phrase :-)) are amply evident. One of the most absurd examples I know was the Bean-Bayog case in Boston. The public and media were outraged. Yet professionals published articles painting themselves as poor victims of an uneducated public.
Gerald,
Yes, yes, your headache analogy really describes the situation. (I particularly liked the blood-letting part, since many years ago it started seeming to me like therapy was like medicine at the stage where blood-letting was common medical practice.)
Speculation and supposition masquerading as proven facts and science.
A New York Times columnist is taking suggestions for neglected issues that we’d like to see discussed more in 2014. Not sure, but might be worth adding a suggestion: http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/your-submissions-for-most-neglected-topic/
Here’s a copy of the comment I posted:
I’d like to see an exploration of the ways in which people get hurt by the multi-billion dollar mental health/psychotherapy industry. As with any “treatment,” psychotherapy not only costs a great deal of time and money, but comes with the risk of side-effects and harm.
There is far too little attention paid to the victims; it’s almost as if they’re dismissed as collateral damage for the sake of some other value. The inherent structure of the therapy relationship — the one-way intimacy, one-sided vulnerability, and surrounding secrecy — lends itself to exploitation and emotional rape. As with domestic violence or priest sexual abuse, it’s a problem that people prefer to look away from and no one wants to think about or admit exists. There will continue to be more therapy victims until we’re ready to really take a look, and take action.
We can do better. More food for thought for your columns may be found here:
http://trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/
I hope the Times uses your comment. I added:
I would like to see the Times cover the excesses of the mental health industry: the slick marketing of services, the pathologizing of normal human behavior, the capricious fads in treatment and the vagaries and controversy in diagnostic categories. Does the infantilzing, authoritarian structure of psychotherapy help, or merely hustle, the worried well?
I forgot to mention I did make a formal complaint to the BPS that he had written about me in a very negative dishonest and self serving way in the textbook.
My complaint was not upheld by the BPS as apparently he had sufficiently anonymised -he had not mentioned my name, gender, ethnicity ,age etc
Fiona,
Anonymising is no substitute for client consent — case studies *with* the client’s consent are supposed to be anonymised. So I consider his behavior unethical.
I doubt a client can fairly grant consent. If she’s at all beholden to the therapist as if so many clients are, she will agree to publication to placate the therapist. And she doesn’t know what the therapist will write about her or the effect of reading about herself objectified as a “case.”
The trend now, of course, is the blogging therapist. I read one therapist smash a prospective client who fled after one session. The enraged therapist landed with all her fury about the fleeing woman’s lack of courage, not being ready etc. I’m entertained how the therapist, smarter than the client’s 10 doctors, and KNOWS the women’s symptoms are psychological.* http://shirahvollmermd.wordpress.com/2011/12/14/should-i-waste-my-time-in-therapy/?#comment-4510
*(My neurological disorder stumped MANY doctors too. Some illnesses like that. Sometimes it’s not just in-our-heads.)
The angry therapist you mentioned sounds textbook narcissist.
She is interpreting the situation of the client leaving her treatment wrongly-everything is filtered through therapists own sense of grandeur and sense of the client being inferior.
I see therapists as often the product of a larger belief system that educates them to believe their own grand publicity. Some of the older literature I scanned particularly unloaded the diagnosis artillery on skeptical clients–that they were “treatment-resistant” or terminated due to their narcissism, blah, blah blah. All their authoritarian posturing lets them deceive themselves.
This book review includes grandfather Freud laying down the law-on-high on the five types of resistance. Nowhere does it consider the practitioner is peddling delusional pseudo science. Freud also huffed how patients “cling to their disease.”
http://www.apadivisions.org/division-39/publications/reviews/working-resistance.aspx
Though the field has distanced from the Freud’s almighty word over the decades, his paternalistic, absolutist imprint strongly seems to remain.
I wrote a response to Vollmer in her own language attempting to hold a mirror up for her so that she could see what she is doing to other people. She deleted it. The hypocrisy and unwillingness to question themselves (“defensiveness”) displayed by people in the therapy industry is almost incredible.
Fyi,here’s what I posted:
“I think that the reasonable and humane conclusion to draw from Stacy’s case is that she would like some help, but doesn’t see psychotherapy as the place to get it. She’s been sold snake oil in the past, and she is gathering her strength not to be duped and exploited a third time.
“Or if you prefer layers of voodoo added to face-value explanations, here’s some food for thought: Vollmer has written this column as a defense to mask the shame and guilt she feels from making a living by taking advantage of people when they’re feeling most vulnerable, pushing smoke and mirrors around, and sadistically, voyeuristically, and grandiosely taking pleasure in feeling above those piteous people who come to her. She tries to hide her own pain and insecurity by focusing on the pain and insecurity of others, and pretending that she really has something of value to offer. If she looks carefully at the research and sees that psychotherapy has never beat an active placebo in well-designed studies, then she will have to face the unpleasant reality that she is a quack who has been scamming people. If the emptiness she feels inside is too much to take, she may try to run from it by offering more attacks or unfounded “diagnoses” of those who disagree with her.”
—
It’s amazingly easy to play this therapy industry game, but it is sadistically cruel to make a living out of doing it to human beings who are feeling down and seeking help.
(PS – I normally do not endorse using this therapy-speak about our fellow human beings; but it seemed appropriate as an exercise in holding a mirror to someone and illustrating how the therapy game can be played.)
Bravo 🙂
Speaking of Freud, I recently read a review of a Patricia Kitcher’s book on Freud that may be of interest: http://sulloway.org/KitcherReview-1995.pdf (It’s from the 1990s, but probably still apt.)
Excerpt:
“Freud’s failings … reside in his day-to-day behavior as a scientist. Freud’s reckless attitude towards disconfirming evidence during his waning years was nothing new. For more than four decades Freud rarely paid sufficient attention to contradictory evidence … Freud’s constant twisting of facts to suit his theoretical needs …”
Unfortunately, I believe Freud left the world more than piles of now-debunked theory. He left a discipline (I wince to call it) begun on a quicksand foundation of unproven speculation, then elevated and constructed in an insular, guarded, contemptuous culture.
Though it’s now acceptable to debunk Freud, I’ve yet to see an author investigate the imprint of his fallacious methodology and paternalism on the psych industry.
More interesting quotes from Anon’s article echo the resistance to data I see in the wider psych industry culture.
“He (Freud) did not predict a physiological discovery; he presumed it and constructed his theory around it.”
And —
Freud’s eclectic approach “made his theories hostage to unfavorable developments in other fields” (p. 63). In other words, Freud placed too many speculative bets on too many dubious horses. With the passage of time, most of Freud’s once promising steeds have turned out to be disappointing nags. Neither Freud nor his followers were willing to acknowledge these injudicious wagers or to revise their theories accordingly. Instead, psychoanalysts
consistently welshed on their speculative bets.
It appears that an ongoing narrative about (seemingly) real clients is standard practice for Dr. Vollmer. Follow the threads and she writes at least three about “Zach.” Then of course she encourages her readers to chime in.
She writes about many more cases, and I find no mention that these are composites or fictional.
I don’t care if she changes their names. I find this a beyond reprehensible exploitation if she’s writing about anyone resembling real clients. This comes public participation approaches a cyber Dr. Phil show, all to build a provider’s brand.
This answers our question about Vollmer. She indeed writes about real clients, as do many other therapist bloggers. She’s not only writing about them but urging public discussion arout their cases–all to build her brand. Her rationalizations are jaw-dropping. I’d think a client would react to the condescension and snark, her using client suffering as fodder, even if if the client wasn’t the specific target.
Anon, your deleted response to Vollmer illustrates the viciousness of the therapy diagnosis game, and Vollmer’s spite playing it with a fleeing client. Even worse, the hatred is camouflaged under the pretense of objectivity, detachment, scientific authority and the feigned altruism. I’m just telling you that you’re a psychotic, borderline manic depressive–for your own good!
I actually employed the condescension tactic myself when I power struggled with my therapist. He was furious. If one wants to be insulting–“psychoanalyze” someone.
Vollmer shows her hubris in what she believes she’s learned about Stacy in a mere 50 minutes. Vollmer is downright clairvoyant: ” she is scared of going into psychotherapy and that is why she is inviting me to argue with her.”
More horrifying is Vollmer’s firm belief she knows more–in 50 minutes–than Stacy’s 10 doctors. The patient’s physical problems are….she sees herself as UNLOVABLE! “Therapy might uncover that her physical symptoms stem from deeper psychological wounds of feeling unloved and unloveable.”
I have an unusual and low-level genetic disorder that stumped many doctors. It affects my mood, my energy and likely how the world relates with me. I’ll have to ask my neurologist about this love-ability thing. Maybe it will show it up in MRI.
Fiona -the ethical thing would have been for him to have cleared it with you first before submitting for publication. This is out of order whatever the BPS have said.
On regulation, I know that, with vocal opposition as per the clip from Denis Postle above, there have been some efforts at introducing regulation in the UK, but the current government is not pursuing that course. I did see that an MP Geraint Davies is introducing a private member’s Bill. This seems to be aimed at preventing gay to straight conversion therapy, but it does include a requirement for therapists to be registered with the Health Professions Council and subject to a complaints procedure:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2467452/Health-Notes-MP-battles-quack-therapists.html
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/counsellorsandpsychotherapists.html
Whilst some regulation is better than none, I’m rather sceptical about it. Simply being registered is no guarantee of good therapy and ethical practice. Any complaints procedure will have to be more robust than current ones or I don’t think it will make much difference. I would welcome a wider debate on the ethics and effectiveness of therapy. The need for this seems to be more acute in the US where therapy is more widespread and accepted, but I think it would still have relevance for the UK where psychotherapy is becoming more common. I’m thinking of contacting Geraint Davies to find out how much more this is than just the gay to straight thing.
The entire case study in journal issue makes me uncomfortable. Even in a good relationship the client often has been indoctrinated to submit to and please her therapist. So might withdrawing consent to an eager author cause a wedge in what she sees as an idealized and “life saving” relationship?
Writing up a case also muddies a clinician’s loyalty and focus. Is he helping a client or has the relationship become fodder to boost the practitioner’s brand? I would not enjoy reading about myself as a study, an object, a case. There is such a disconnect between how the client perceives a relationship and how a therapist would describe it to a peer. This again is a stark contrast to physical medicine in which everyone agrees a throat is inflamed.
While I very much appreciate the UK deconstructionists writing and shaking things up, I assume regulation in the US sometimes protects the public from the worst of the worst.
When I was a therapy consumer I certainly was unequipped to evaluate my treatement. Even older and much more vigilant, I find it difficult sorting out the quality of medical care. Complicate that with “you have to feel worse before you better,” how can anyone evaluate what they receive?
Writing a chapter for that stupid textbook was a violation that added insult to injury.
It was so blatantly ‘blame the client’ in its tone that I actually believe it came across as suspicious so in a way so him and his daft wife (a psychologist who worked for the same NHS Trust) shot themselves in the foot.
The pair of them used that publication purely as a way to try and clear his name- using their professional power to ‘set the record straight’ with his NHS Trust co-workers (the ones who saw through him and his lame ‘shes delusional ‘she’s a stalker’ and as a result shunned him).
He has also done a massive disservice to the psychotherapy trainees who use the book for reference -I have even noticed his chapter being referenced in another book by an author.
If only they knew that what they had read was a load of lies written by a sociopath trying to clear his name and protest his innocence even though he was as guilty as sin.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?!
The worst bit was admitting to myself he never had any concern whatsoever for my well being or my feelings.
That’s what really hurts.
Fiona – First off, my truest condolences for what this therapist put you through. As disgruntled as I am with the 7 therapists I have seen I must at least give them credit for not having put me down personally. They were courteous and caring at least, just not present enough to understand and give much true help. Too lost in their theories and own problems. As my least favorite of them scribbled furiously on her notepad all the time i can only imagine what kind of case study I made for her peers – save little of it could be accurate as she not only projected her own issues and her theoretical nonsense onto me – she never could keep my history straight. As painful and infuriating as all of our experiences are we must chalk this up to valuable wisdom. Wisdom we can share with others. As I’ve said before, the best regulation is not going to these quacks in the first place.
How quickly therapists forget they’re in the business of helping clients–who hire them–and that is their first and only responsibility. They aren’t there to build their personal brands and hype their fame.
My original essay refers to text book about harmful therapy. One chapter is a case study, complete with dialogue, venting about a supposedly hopeless client. I read it though finding doctor the obstinate, clueless fool, so wrapped in his agenda that he no longer communicated like a human being.
The professional literature I’ve read about client complaints is extremely self-serving. Professionals go overboard in demonizing, analyzing and categorizing, giving scant concern to how the practitioner might have created a breakdown or the damage they’ve caused.
How quickly therapists drop their knitted-brow empathy when a client deigns to question their dominance.
Hi everyone and thanx for your replies.
I think my experience with the NHS psychologist was rather extreme because the guy was so mean and sadistic.
He actually got off on inflicting psychological pain on the clients who believed he loved them.
After the romantic grooming and love bombing was completed he would start cruel abuse- treating clients with scorn and contempt
.He got his kicks from knowing that they were aware he was hurting them but they were unable to understand or conceptualize the reason behind it.
I had quite a lot of insight into sociopathic men due to my background so luckily I worked him out quite quickly.
He was absolutely furious when I told him in our last session that I was fully aware what he was attempting to do to me and that he must be a very inadequate unhappy man who needed therapy.
Im totally convinced (although I have no proof) he previously did this to many other female NHS clients and it scares me so much that some of them might have committed suicide after he finished his twisted sick game.
Fiona, like everyone else, so sorry re: what you went through.
I want to pose the following:
– I think the ‘complaints’ we file against bad therapists, are very similar (parallel?) to the first reports of child abuse made by children. Remember those of decades ago? When the child was NOT believed!! And how there was a big campaign to change that, so that now they are much more likely to be believed.
I REALLY think our movement, to change the acceptance of ‘abusive therapists’ can do the same. When we complain, we are treated like those ‘children’ – we are fantasizing, lying, we ‘misunderstood’ what the therap ist said and/or meant, etc. And it is even CRAZIER because we are ADULTS!!! I’m going to do some research re: how the movement to ‘believe’ childrenem started.
– Also, because the bad therapists always say we are lying when we file a complaint against them, why not go to some of them with a hidden tape recorder and tape the sessions? That would be proof positive backing up our complaints. I can’t see where this would be illegal. I mean, its like Monica hanging on that dress of hers that had a ‘stain’ on it. What do people think?
‘
Resharpen, I relate completely to your point about feeling like a voiceless implausible child when I filed a complaint. Doctor knew best, even with his contradictions and clairvoyant certitude. Speculating about a client’s state of mind is inadmissible in the US court–hearsay rule– but perfectly welcome defense in a violation hearing.
From my reading, Psych Industrial Complex contradicts all its lip service to compassion and alliance to diminish the population it purports to treat.
For example, Patricia Keith-Spiegel’s new “Red Flags in Psychotherapy,” is a semi-fictionalized narrative book about psych board hearings. Yet every case study depicts the client, particularly the females, as sub-intelligent and buffoonish . An openly hostile voice is Lawrence Hedges, an author who consults with therapists against “false accusations.”
I’ll post a link to his writings, ONLY if you’re in the mood to be furious.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume7/j7_1_4.htm
( I hate their word, “trigger.”)
My highly unscientific survey also found the Psych Industrial Complex largely scornful to anyone, complaining or not, who deigns to criticize a therapist. Textbooks authoritatively explain these ruptures with torrents of client-blaming and condescending labels–supported with no science, proof or feedback.
I stumped how voices like ours can be heard amidst such a defensive, arrogant culture.
I agree that tape recording a session, hidden or not, might be a good strategy should a client be in a zone between suspecting damage and leaving therapy. There are some limitations on this in the US. Laws vary by state, with 12 of them requiring “two-party consent” or the knowledge and permission of both parties for these recordings to be legal.
I emailed this to his NHS supervisor various colleagues of his and every single the contributors to the textbook.
He then got the NHS Trust to send the police to my home claiming harassment.
_______________________________________
*I strongly believe Mr [censored] has victimized other female psychotherapy clients he seemed to be using a weird grooming process on me in almost like a script- step 1 I do this step 2 I do that Step 3 I get what I want…
I think its highly unlikely I was his first victim.
Mr [censored] abuse is particularly sad and cruel because many of the female clients referred to him would have had child abuse histories they would present with intense unmet needs for validation recognition and support these women would have been sitting ducks for a narcissistic predator like him,they would have already had an ingrained sense of powerlessness,they would have already had a tendency toward interpersonal passivity Mr [censored] would have easily been able to manipulate them into feeling they were culpable for their own victimization (when he was emotionally abusing me he would tell me I should take responsibility for the way he was behaving) the other victims he abused would have no doubt believed it was their fault things turned bad and not made complaints, unlike me they would have not have had the psychological knowledge to analyze what was occurring and articulate a complaint
*When I made my 1999 BPS complaint I was in a strange form of denial similar to Stockholm Syndrome part of me hated him but the other half didnt
I wasnt able to fully admit to myself just how predatory and malevolent he had been. In 2000 I remembered the Monica Lewinski,Bill Clinton remark and realised he had been using NLP Hypnosis and Conversational Hypnosis on me I also remembered the snide cutting comments he made and the sadistic tone of voice he used.
I went into a emotional meltdown I had a severe psychological breakdown I felt like a worthless idiot and frightened and I hated myself for ever thinking I trusted him and I was disgusted at the ‘blame the victim’ response and the ridiculous ‘closing’ of ranks Id been subjected to by Dr xxx, Dr xxx at the Healthcare NHS Trust especially as they’d never even met him.
Although he was ostracised by the majority of his direct co workers in the primary care counselling psychology department no disciplinary action was ever taken against him by the Healthcare Trust also due to unfair pathologising and the tremendous stress of the complaints process and the ‘blame the victim response’ by the three ‘professional’ colleagues of Mr [censored] I couldnt cope with the BPS complaints procedure and withdrew my complaint against him
*Over the years I got back to normal and felt that even though he’d gotten away with it at least Id exposed him and hopefully he would think twice about ever abusing another client in the future.When it was brought to my attention in 2005 that he had contributed to the Handbook of Professional and Ethical Practice I was totally shocked realised he was a full blown sociopath and I became re-traumatized
Mr [censored] had such a lack of conscience and moral understanding that he was prepared to use a professional publication as a vehicle to clear his name and he used his wife as an accomplice/enabler.I was totally sickened and extremely distressed.
*Ive spent years trying to understand Mr [censored] and why he did it. Ive realized he has a sick compulsion a narcissistic need to assert control over people,I think he is the sort of man who gets a peverse delight knowing he can generate strong responses in others he has an addiction to ‘power over’ he enjoys situations were he can get a sensation of power a sense of winning/one upmanship-he is a covert aggressive sadist
*Mr [censored] has never taken any responsibilty for his conduct towards me he prefers to blame and scapegoat others.He knows full well he abused me ,I believe he set out from the very beginning to play his sick game on me (a game he has no doubt played on others)
What distresses me the most is his behaviour it was a recapitulation of my original abuse and as a trained psychologist he would have known that what he was intending to do would have serious long term damage to my emotional and psychological health
As previously stated he knew from his education and training that due to my childhood I had a vulnerability to exploitation
*Mr [censored] remains in a permanent psychological stance of denial.Amazingly even though he has immense psychological knowledge he seems unable to apply it to himself,you would think a psychologist would be able to analyse his own problem areas. In order to heal he would need to go back through his denial admit to his own childhood abuse and work through the issues which left him with such a great need for dominance and power over women.
*His sense of self worth seems dependent on the degree to which he can make clients feel powerless.He derived ego gratification from harming me-how very weak and powerless he must feel building himself up by trying to harm a vulnerable woman.
I was very frightened of using the NHS for many years (to this day Im unable to trust health professionals and this has been extremely difficult particulaly distressing during certain medical procedures like going under anaesthetics etc)
*Everything he says and does is for appearances sake he constantly puts on an act he lies to colleagues lies to his co-author/wife he even lies in professional publications he has a dual personality.He should not be working in a caregiving role in the NHS because he cannot understand people in a human compassionate way he views clients as objects,experiments guinea pigs or diagrams he has no meaningful understanding of morals and feelings he is unable to label his own feelings and he cannot understand clients feelings
*Mr [censored] has repeatedly tried to discredit me and tries to paint a picture of me as a stalker and I feel there is a strong degree of projection in this.Mr [censored] used to call my number withold his number and put the phone down this went on for five years and I once saw him in the Wxxxxx Car Park near my home he was sitting in a white car I had just come out of Woolworths and I believe he had followed me from my house.
*He needs to seek psychotherapy take conscious positive control of his life and resist abusing vulnerable clients
Fiona, it sounds like a nightmare. For all their lip service about honesty and growth, therapists as a group seem to be the last to practice what they preach. If you haven’t run across this website, you might find some familiarity in the stories. TELL will also connect you with others. http://www.therapyabuse.org/topics.htm
I find it outrageous how primed colleagues seem to believe the therapist over the client. Nor did they seem to truly understand how therapy can mesmerize a functioning person into submission. I personally found simply the passivity and the infantilzing harmful even when no abuse took place.
My non-public power struggle with my therapist had some parallels. He portrayed me as thriving under his wonderful care until our rupture. His explanation was contradictory, and to testify as to my mind state he would have needed clairvoyance. I’d think anyone on a complaint board would have heard these defenses over and over, because that’s all the therapists have. Ashamed they lack the savvy to see through them.
The reasons these psychiatrists, psychologist, therapist go into the field is because they are disordered they come from a troubled background themselves and are mostly unhealed and dysfunctional.
The aforementioned sad sack psychologists wife also wrote a chapter in the Handbook of Professional and Ethical Practice entitled ‘Referrals’ and she was advocating for therapists to strongly scrutinise who they take on as clients.
Roughly translated… my poor husband took on a complete nutter who made formal complaints against him if he had ‘scutinized’ he would never have taken her on as a client.
The two of them were very ‘foile a deux’ and without any shred of integrity or sense of personal accountability it was blame the victim all the way.
Darling husband was obsessed and crank calling me and she just colluded with him in a really sick co dependent way.
Sounds like a living hell; I hope the guy gets his comeuppance.
An extreme example was patient, Barbara Noel who charged a prominent psychiatrist of many years of drugging and raping her and wrote a book –made into a movie–called You Must Be Dreaming. She won a $200,000 settlement, and three other plaintiffs were awarded $50,000 apiece. One of the cases was prior to Ms. Noel’s allegations, and the doctor acknowledged to using addictive amobarbital in treatment long after is was discredited as a protocol.
The undeterred doctor and his wife answered with their book, http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-916147-42-6
I have no idea how they got away with such disregard of client confidentiality. I read the professionals again circled the wagons as they did with the notorious Bean-Bayog case.
My much less dramatic complaint was denied, though I leave evidence, such as this blog, of walking the walk. I told the story to the therapist who made the referral, and I hope she never repeated our mistake.
There are times I’ve had to hold my own truth. I was a lone witness standing up to a more authoritative figure. Therapist abuse certainly is one of the most difficult ones.
He was an evil sick man with a malicious turn of mind acting out his anger frustration by abusing clients he perceived as
‘easy pickins’.
He had/has a weak ego & poor self image desperately needing his ‘victories’ to get temporary feelings of superiority.
When venting anger at vulnerable unsuspecting females he feels like a ‘warrior’ a ‘real man’.
Waging his own private war against the helpless by deliberately misusing the transference phenomenon.
Unfortunately I didn’t get any formal justice he is still working for the NHS and continues to be registered with the BPS and the HPC. Hopefully the laws of karma will deal with him.
New Mexico teachers become COUNSELORS!
School has announced that its teachers will become counselors when its students return to school, after that horrific shooting. Wonder if those who are licensed as ‘real’ counselors/therapists will be ‘concerned’ that non-counselors will be doing what they – the ones ‘educated’ in the field believe ONLY ‘they’ can do. I think this is a great example that those of us NOT ‘trained’ to do counseling can do it as well (and often better). So much for that specialized ‘education’ and ‘license’ which we all know, works SO well.
Enter the crisis debriefing whether it works or not. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC137400/
More mythology brought to us by the Psych Industrial Complex. Continue to live in it, and feel all that pain again and again.
Thanks! Great article. I added it to the list of articles here: http://trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/links/
Very informative… please consider supporting us in the fight against sexual exploitation by mental health professionals. http://www.lynetteslaw4maryland.com
excellent article.
The therapeutic relationship itself, however well-intentioned, is nevertheless always inherently unnatural and, as such, should not be entered into. It is one-way intimacy. The very act of sitting down in front of a therapist immediately creates a situation wherein I as the client have, whether consciously or not, essentially admitted that the therapist is more “psychologically able” than me. The relationship dynamic is one in which the therapist is continually upshot as being more psychologically capable, more able to understand me than I myself am. This can only lead to disaster, not healthy functioning in society.
As someone has commented: “My experience was with a fairly nice person who seemed to mean well and yet I feel profoundly damaged by therapy. I feel like my life has been stolen from me. I have almost no ability to trust people anymore. I can only appreciate people. I think it is the structure of the paradigm that causes the problem. I have also worked in the field with the intention of becoming a psychotherapist. I would never do it now.”
For more, please see: http://trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/
And, one of the most brilliant pieces I have ever read on this, or any subject for that matter (and from which I “borrowed” some of my own criticisms: http://www.criticalmethods.org/hook.htm
The relationship dynamic is one in which the therapist is continually upshot as being more psychologically capable, more able to understand me than I myself am.
-What I find interesting about this is that I have never felt like any therapist I have dealt with was anything but myopic, sometimes insipid, and wholly incapable of understanding even simple matters without great effort on my part in getting a point across. Perhaps I am simply too strong willed but (was) not smart enough to see that I was never dealing with people with great minds. In retrospect I now see that what, too often, I blamed upon myself in the failure of seeking out help was really not my problem but that of the well-meaning but feckless therapist. I now look back upon most of my “therapeutic” relationships as little more than social prostitutes (at best). At worst, they exacerbated the very problems I sought to resolve.
Hey, I don’t think you should debase prostitutes by calling therapists ‘social prostitutes”. At least with a ‘traditional’ prostitute, you know what you are paying for, and the vast majority of the time you will get the service you paid for.
resharpen – prostitution is anytime you pay for something that should be free. No one should pay to have a social hour but that’s basically all I did. It certainly never led to anything revelatory for me. As to prostitutes – the ones I’ve met are just as manipulative and conniving as the therapists I’ve had and what they promised was never what they delivered. So – no difference from my point of view.
Interesting discussion. At least in theory one can honestly pay for a physical act (e.g., labor, a performance, or sex), but there is somewhat of a contradiction within the idea of paying for an emotional act/state — just as one “can’t buy me love,” one can’t buy genuine empathy, care, or other feelings of affection or regard. In that sense, sexual prostitutes at least have a chance of offering an honest service, whereas emotional prostitutes/therapists are selling an inherently dishonest service by its very nature.
Here’s how I see the prostitution metaphor. Say I’m a young male, seeing a prostitute. The prostitute cows me with her jargon and inscrutable procedure, convinces me she holds the truth then deludes me into thinking that sex actually occurred when it didn’t. But I happily pay the fee, because the prostitute knows more about sex than I do.
Excellent metaphor. Pretty much sums it up for both in my case – and I became emotionally entangled as well – never good with either profession. All I can state is that I will never pay for either service ever again – and what’s ironic is it was a therapist who encouraged me to seek out the other!
GW, I’m simultaneously shaking my head and not entirely surprised a therapist would thinking patronizing a prostitute wise counsel. Such is the sham business of one person pretending to tell another how to improve his life. Amazing how these irresponsible improvisations pose as –science.
In therapy we also surrender our adult autonomy and open every crevice of our privacy to the therapist’s intrusion and evaluation. It’s like we’re still children with our rooms choice of friends and homework habits constantly available for adult scrutiny.
I somewhat suffered the women’s equivalent. My therapist thought my appearance wasn’t up to snuff so sent me for a wardrobe, makeup and hair do-over. I’ll report new clothes and different hair made no difference in my life.
I suspect many a therapist might tsk that we merely discuss a few “bad apples.” I argue it’s the larger structure of therapy that encourages these embarrassing events.
Well said.
Welcome Dan. I too saw the therapist as socially superior, the same way I would have deferred to the confident girls in high school or vainglorious boss at work. The social stratification seems all but inevitable, and no number of platitudes to boost the client’s “self-esteem” counteracts the paradox of the therapist’s interpersonal dominance.
Add their sovereignty to the certainty of their fanciful speculations–accessing your memories will set you free, accepting (phony) therapist love will reparent you, training your negative thoughts will change your brain, whatever the soup du jour. I’ve yet to see a therapist represent his pet modality as simple conjecture.
I found the mere submission and infantalization damaging. Therapy also directed me to indulge and cherish my emotions like they were greenhouse orchids, and to expect this same coddling from the outside world. In the real world I was in a tough, competitive field, and what I really needed more wherewithal to better sell myself in it. I was long past my infant expiration date.
In Dan’s link I particularly liked the title –The psychological imperialism of psychotherapy — and Cushman’s quote:
“The wish to overidealize and psychologically merge with an admired figure….and the pull to exhibit before and please the…figure are exceedingly powerful psychological motives. These impulses are regressive and destructive of critical thought”, (Cushman,1992,607).
This piece by Dan seems to me valuable, emphasizing as it does that the asymmetry of psychotherapy is unnatural and negative. Anon and disequilibrium1 have made similar points. As Dan states, “The very act of sitting down in front of a therapist immediately creates a situation wherein I as the client have, whether consciously or not, essentially admitted that the therapist is more “psychologically able” than me.”
Nevertheless, the situation is more extreme with therapists who deliberately maximize the asymmetry, seeking superiority and power at all costs. As Mary S. mentioned about 6 months ago, one therapist said to her, “Do you realize you’re asking me to give up my control?” The unqualified couples therapist who did such damage to my wife and me had developed a whole armoury of ways to gain the upper hand. If he was in danger of losing an argument he would say: “That’s entirely logical, but have you not considered the possibility that I have another logic”. Or else: “I’m not interested in your mind!” If he was losing the struggle for superiority in another way he would say: “Your trying to take control makes me wonder about your difficulties with your father”. Or else: “The fact that you say that reveals to me all sorts of problems that we need to address”. Etc., etc. We had also agreed that the sessions should be mainly in English, because I spoke French badly, but he just went on in French all the time because he knew this gave him the advantage.
The only difference I experienced between therapy and self-help techniques was that therapy was private and one-on-one. But it was the same exercises, the same demand for faith, the same pumping me up that whatever I did would transform me.
While few authors take on the all-powerful therapy industry, the self-help megaplex is an easier and ready target. In my opinion, the critical questions lobbed at self-help apply equally to therapy:
“…extensive market surveys revealed that “the most likely customer for a book on any given topic was someone who had bought a similar book within the preceding eighteen months.” The irony of “the eighteen-month rule” for this genre, Salerno says, is this: “If what we sold worked, one would expect lives to improve. One would not expect people to need further help from us–at least not in that same problem area, and certainly not time and time again.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sham-scam/
We live in a consumer society and monetize anything we can. So the liquor store feeds those with drinking problems, and self-help gurus feed off of those who are addicted to therapy (self-help or not). The one thing I have observed in those who are “therapy addicts” (I am hesitant about making yet another label) is that they never come close to arriving at any state of well-being but just keep on some ridiculous road trip to nowhere. It’s akin to diet fads. Everyone wants a quick fix rather than making lifestyle changes that will eventually lead to what they set out to do.
Most of these “gurus” have just as many problems and are very much like dope-peddlers. Get the masses hooked and keep feeding them nonsense that gets them high. When they crash it’s time for another fix of psycho-nonsense. What few of these “addicts” realize is that life is like a calculus problem and most of these “gurus” aren’t good at basic arithmetic let alone anything higher.
GW, sucker that I am, I’ve delved into one of those self-help-tape systems. Both therapy and the “life-changing” system used Neuro Linguistic Programming visualization exercises and pep talks as the promised cure for my personal obstacles.
Both systems removed no obstacles, only money. Between the self-help guru and the therapist, I feel the former was the more honest, less entangling huckster.
Re GW’s comment that “life is like a calculus problem”: In my experience, life is sometimes more difficult than a calculus problem. Calculus problems usually are solvable with careful thinking, careful reading of the textbook, and/or asking someone else for help. But when i encountered some really difficult life problems, after a while of not being able to deal with them adequately on my own, I turned to “self-help” books, thinking they might be like calculus books. However, they didn’t make anywhere near as much sense as a calculus book. So I thought I needed expert help, more individualized help — hence tried therapy. But therapy made no more sense than the self-help books. My assumption that therapy would give individualized help was wrong — it was just one-size-fits-all delivered in a one-to-one setting, where in addition I got criticized for questioning the “authority.”
One (of many) problems I find with psychotherapy, especially the Jungian kind, is the presumption that every human experience/reaction can be universalized and made absolute. The practitioners and devotees will claim they don’t be in absolutes but their application of theories would suggest otherwise. Though many things at a high level can be generally universalized ( ex. loss of a loved one will bring about a grieving period) – as individuals with highly complex sets of life experiences and personalities – psychotherapy cannot make such presumptions. Perhaps Quantum Mechanics would be a better analogy than calculus – but I was simply making the comparison of my issues being complex vs. the therapists’ resolutions being simplistic like basic arithmetic. However we divide matters and make analogies to describe this mess – psychotherapy rarely works and until the industry decides to consider the individual as such – it will just continue to exacerbate the problems we want to resolve.
It’s difficult enough to calculate what might improve our own lives, or give a close friend useful advice. How can a therapist have that insight given what they learn in the artificial chamber of therapy? One therapist had boilerplate communication lessons she taught- oblivious of course to the wide variety of difficulties and scenarios in human communication.
I believe my younger self likely needed to be less self-effacing, less submissive, more politically savvy. The therapists had no understanding of how I was perceived outside their room, in fact, my compliance made me a pleasant client.
I’ve read numerous psych forum posts how clients believe that feeling worse, excavating their worst life memories–leads to an emotional cleansing or catharsis. No one questions that this sorrowful habit, devoting all this time to isolation, self-absorption and child-like bonding with their therapists, might be squandering a precious months or years on a theoretical goose chase. Catharsis is a literary frame after all.
Likely my largest obstacle has been my place in social hierarchies. My role with therapists–in present time–defined me as subordinate and pitiful. It’s the last role I wanted in life.
I think you may have identified with the therapists projection they need to see you as a victim unable to cope in order to feel extra superior, and because they are most comfortable with large power differentials.
___________________________________________
Sorry (respectfully) I don’t agree.
There has been some discrediting of the Christian therapy but there is data to show it has been of benefit to some people -we live in an extremely liberal politically correct culture and sadly there is significant bias against Christians.
The specific controversy is around conversion therapy which many gays have reported harmful. Correct me is I’m wrong, but I don’t see opposition to this specific therapy as disrespecting Christians or any other faith.
In response to Fiona’s remarks about counselling for gays, Disequilibrium1 wrote: “The specific controversy is around conversion therapy which many gays have reported harmful. Correct me is I’m wrong, but I don’t see opposition to this specific therapy as disrespecting Christians or any other faith.”
Fiona’s point was not about lack of respect, but about denial of the right to obtain therapy. I should mention that my own opinion on the efficacy of conversion therapy is cautious. Some claims for the efficacy of particular forms of conversion therapy have been refuted, but for other forms the question seems to me still open.
Now take this example on Huffington:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/05/new-jersey-ex-gay-lawsuit-_n_4220811.html
On discovering his own homosexual tendencies this 15-year-old Roman Catholic boy was desperate and wanted conversion therapy, but was refused because of the New Jersey ban. Remember that homosexual relations are forbidden by the RC Church (and by many other religions including Islam), so there is often a religious component to this. An atheist or a liberal protestant may have very different views from an RC or a pentecostal or a muslim, so the ban affects people of certain religions but not others. Also, as Fiona mentioned, some of the therapies are based on specifically “Christian” premises.
You can argue that the ban was in fact protecting the boy from harmful “therapy”, and most of us on this blog are well aware that psychotherapies can do more harm than good. But there are so many versions of conversion therapy, ranging from aversive therapy to psychoanalysis to gentle advice and encouragement. Are they all harmful? By all means publicize the mediocre statistics and the cases where harm has been caused, but I’m inclined to agree with Fiona that it would be better to leave the choice open to individuals rather than legislating a blanket ban.
I, of course, would like to see all psychotherapies disappear. My argument is mostly based on 1) the lack of credible/reliable/non-biased/non-anecdotal/scientific evidence, which is generally not acknowledged by therapists, and thus compromises the ‘informed’ part of informed consent and client autonomy, and turns clients into unconsenting guinea pigs, and 2) the harmful nature of the power-imbalanced artificial paid one-sided emotional relationships.
Maybe some types of therapies are more like teaching/private lessons/tutoring in which one is paying for a service rather than a fake relationship (with timed/paid “caring” or empathy, served along with judgment/assessment, etc.)? To the extent that any “therapy” or educational practice falls under free speech, then I’m sympathetic to allowing its legal existence (for adults). But that doesn’t excuse the ethical obligation to give honest, transparent information about the nature of the evidence (or lack thereof), probable outcomes, safety and efficacy data, risk of harm, etc. to all customers ahead of time.
For the lawyers out there, how do these issues relate to the False Claims Act and/or a seller’s ‘duty of care’ not to harm customers?
A key insight from the article that similarly applies to the therapy industry:
“SHAM takes advantage by cleverly marketing the dualism of victimization and empowerment. Like a religion that defines people as inherently sinful so that they require forgiveness (provided exclusively by that religion), SHAM gurus insist that we are all victims of … traumatic pasts … Redemption … supplied by the masters themselves, for prices …”
The therapy industry cleverly defines people as mentally ill or deficient in some way that requires their “treatment” to fix. Conditioning the market by creating an “unmet need” for your product/service is a basic Marketing 101 tactic.
This practice is expected in advertising for most industries, but is particularly gruesome in the psychotherapy industry, as they exploit consumers’ trust, prey on them when they’re down, and can leave long-lasting emotional scars.
While self-help books might be useless and hurt your wallet, getting involved in the dehumanizing relationship structure of therapy can hurt your wallet and your soul.
There are good therapists and bad- likewise there is good therapy and bad therapy.
I have to say the only therapy I know that defines people as inherently sinful is Christian therapy.
Most therapy defines the client as ‘troubled’.
Unfortunately oftentimes the therapist is significantly more ‘troubled’ than their client.
A friend once dragged me to a Lifespring meeting, 100+ people in a hotel, breaking into circles, self discovering, or so they thought. I called it Safeway psychology, with apologies to that grocery chain. The organization had a multi-level-marketing structure, meaning there were rewards for bringing new recruits. My friend was a gung-ho believer for several months until she decided the entire thing was hokum. I don’t know what caused her reversal.
But except for delivery to the masses instead of one-on-one, I thought the techniques just like therapy.
Being duped by therapy makes me realize just how suggestible and susceptible we can be. One goes to a therapist and he renders verdict how we’re relating to him. We’re too detached and can’t trust or too attached and too needy. We felt powerless as a child. We were overlooked by a teacher or rejected by a lover or friend. We’re overwhelmed by the drudgery of life sometimes. All these events, common to all of us are can be presented as great psychic wounds we’re duty bound to cleanse and work through in therapy to free ourselves and live better lives. It’s the ultimate hucksterism.
Marketers work exactly the same way. Does your scalp itch? We have the perfect shampoo. See those gorgeous people happily partying? They’re drinking our soft drink. Marketers also create fantasy characters, the woman who can walk through the New York streets on a 10 degree snowy day and look gorgeous and fresh-pressed. Her secret is the perfume. Or a schlub at the bar attracts the gorgeous woman, thanks to his brand of lite beer. Therapists also promise or imply if we submit to their ministrations, “do the work,” that rewards await. Therapists take marketing courses these days. The salesmanship is rampant.
Fiona, though most therapy is not outright religious, I’ve seen its adherents relate to it the same way as religious followers. There are therapy forums on the internet that attempt to peer-pressure wayward lambs contemplating leaving their therapists or therapy, just as one would expect members of a strict and fearing congregation.
“Is your therapist wrong, or is that your resistance?” “Is your therapist flirting with your, or is that your transference?” “Aren’t you using your complaints as an EXCUSE to leave, because you’re afraid of what you’ll discover if you stay.”
These therapy clients are proxy enforcers, perceiving an orderly world where the therapist is correct, dominant, and the client owes obedience and submission.
Though these forums are self-selecting, people in my real life who know of my skepticism seem equally threatened by it. It feels like they go to therapy as a mandated penance, a cleansing of defects. (Or so they hope.) Critics of therapy incite visceral, to-the-core fury, like the way Don. S goes after me (Sue) when I gave a two-star review to an ethics book. I’d venture no one feels this way about their allergist.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R21EO2WEQ56PJX/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R21EO2WEQ56PJX
As I have posted up-thread, the training of counsellors can also be dysfunctional. If the therapist is more troubled than the client, does that mean that the trainee therapist’s teacher can be more troubled than the trainee therapist? Unfortunately, this can be the case. There is no guarantee that narcissists, psychopaths, sadists and others will not be hiding within the ranks. And, in actual fact, I think therapy is likely to attract people with this type of disorder as there is a golden opportunity to nit-pick at someone’s personality. One of the therapists I saw was definitely on the spectrum of personality disorder – narcissistic with some sadism thrown in. She had a cruel little smile which emerged when she scored some kind of emotional ‘hit’. After a few sessions I realized that she was relishing playing with my emotions. Perhaps she was a psychopath. Several lecturers on a therapy course I did once definitely displayed psychopathic traits. They really were horrible people and I can only imagine how dysfunctional their own private lives were. One of the men you could tell had massive issues around anger and I suspect was deeply misogynistic. He also had a cruel little smile when he thought he had struck a blow on an emotional level.
What is shocking is that therapists are supposed to be governed by codes of ethics and follow the guidelines for good practice of professional bodies, but some just seem to openly ignore them. The one I saw did. In actual fact, during one of the early sessions, I confided in her my reason for wanting some therapy (as you do!) which had been to do with a workplace bullying situation. She looked me straight in the eye and asked me ‘how do you know I won’t do the same?’
I have to say I was gob-smacked. What an extraordinary thing to say. I wish now I had thrown the question back at her and asked her WHY she would ask that question.
I still have trouble trying to follow the mind-set of someone who would respond in that way. It’s just such a head f*** as one of my teenagers might say!
j.robs, my theory is that many elements of therapy create a situation ripe for abuse: the asymmetry, folklore masking as science, the vagaries of its goals and yes, the closed doors. Once a therapist leaves supervision, he’s free to skip down any garden path or poppy field, taking his clients with him.
Why did I not file a complaint, you might ask? Good question! However, as others have noted up-thread, the complaints process is unlikely to be a walk in the park. I’ve tried the complaints route with other professional bodies and let’s just say that ‘closing ranks’ is the name of the game. The whistle blower is seldom welcome as he or she exposes not only the rotten apples, but possibly the rotten barrels as well!
The other aspect of therapy that makes it so wide open to abuse is the fact that it takes place behind closed doors
I doubt the complaint I filed had any effect on my therapist. He rationalized the entire conflict and blamed me, just as he did when it happened.
If you’re in the mood for a nice depression, here’s that zany crew from Links for Shrinks serving up their assured wisdom around the question “Most depressed patients really don’t want to get well. Can this be true?”
Take that, all you Help Rejectors!
http://tinyurl.com/kwnf3fx
The types of cases discussed in these articles involving deception or false promises for the sake of acquiring/keeping clients seems to apply to psychotherapy, as well:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/02/farid-fata-fraud-doctor_n_4031564.html
Has anyone here sued, or considered suing, for damages under a consumer fraud act?
I have to confess…I am Christian so I don’t agree with ending Christian counselling for homosexuals- if they want it -its their choice.
It’s been proven ineffective and overwhelmingly harmful. Of all the therapy vogues that were promulgated and rejected, it’s considered one of the most counterfeit.
A correspondent told me of this pass-the-popcorn psych flap. A math formula for happiness, anyone?
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/36910/title/-Positivity-Ratio–Debunked/
For more on the latest antics of the first author of that study, see http://www.homolog.us/blogs/blog/2013/08/05/tragedy-of-the-day-pnas-got-duped-by-positivity-lady/
OK – here’s my info – from a lawyer:
A seller’s “duty to care” relates to ‘products’ – like selling a bicycle or a toaster.
I don’t know anything re: the ‘false claims act’.
The best (and only one I’ve heard of) legal theory under which to sue a therapist is ‘malpractice’. Like ‘psychological malpractice’ for a psychologist, etc. the person sueing claims that the psychologist did not meet the ‘level of care’ required of all practicing psychologists, and practiced below that level of care. you’d have to get another psychologist to testify that the practice of the person you are sueing was below the level of care and that it ‘damaged’ you.
“Level of care” is such a slippery beast when there’s no agreement what is sickness or wellness or, with hundreds of modalities, what is care in the first place.
It is ironic though how the warm, positive-regarding therapist suddenly decides his client is a borderline vindictive psycho when litigation appears.
If you’re in the mood for another bad view of the industry, here’s a journal article about licensing board complaints, all about protecting the therapist legally and emotionally and nothing about the client save the suggestion the provider–reflect. The possibility the client might “feel harmed” is in quotes….
Click to access LicensingBoardComplaintsJanetTThomas.pdf
Link courtesy the forum Phoenix Rising, UK’s Sunday Times covers Scott Lilienfeld’s analysis of why therapists/consultants are resistant to scientific scrutiny. Though I’m rather amused this topic requires analysis while wondering how scientific the analysis is.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/Appointments/article1273813.ece
A discussion on the Phoenix Rising, an ME/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome forum, has explored an entirely different danger of psychotherapy. There seems a trend by therapists to claim difficult-to-diagnose patients for their jurisdiction, leading patients to believe they can psych away physical disorders. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients specifically have been led down the garden path with failed CBT therapies which delayed them seeking other options. (See Simon Wessely controversy.)
This phenomenon is particularly tragic when it involves children, such as the case of Justina Pelletier. A hospital overrode the judgment of her specialists, took over custody and locked her several months a psych ward on the “diagnosis” that her mitochondrial disorder was in fact “conversion disorder,” in other words, all in her head. All this happened in a mere four days.
Here’s an article about therapists exploiting difficult-to-treat diseases, including the Pelletier case.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/molecules-to-medicine/2014/02/18/have-pain-are-you-crazy-rare-diseases-pt-2/
Here’s the discussion on Phoenix Rising.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/psychological-treatments-that-cause-harm.25417/
I’ve noticed a little discussion on the web among therapists regarding harmful effects of therapy. Two (related sites) are http://www.researchgate.net/post/What_are_the_side_effects_of_Psychotherapy_of_whatever_modality and http://www.researchgate.net/post/Are_there_any_side_effects_to_psychotherapy
A lot of what’s there is naïve, but does seem at least to show some beginnings of serious concern. (Some comments do bother me ethically, though – for example, the guy in the first site who says “if it has the power to make good it can also do wrong,” and the one in the second site who describes psychotherapy as “persuasive conversation.”)
Some discussants give some references. Most of them I’ve seen before, but a couple were new to me and seem worthwhile. One that I found particularly interesting is D.R. Kraus et al, Therapist effectiveness: Implications for accountability and patient care, Psychotherapy Research, May 2011, 21, (3): 267-276. The authors used a behavioral health assessment that is used by a large number of providers to track client improvement in twelve areas (called “domains” – examples include depression, work functioning, panic, psychosis, violence, quality of life). The authors analyzed data that had been collected in the process of therapy, on almost 700 therapists and almost 7000 clients. They classified therapist outcomes as
• “Effective therapist”: “one whose average patient reliably improves”
• ‘‘Unclassifiable/ineffective’’ therapist”: “ one whose average patient neither reliably improves nor reliably deteriorates”
• ‘‘Harmful therapist”: “one whose average patient reliably deteriorates”
(What might sound like fuzziness in the second classification is something I actually see as good: It acknowledges that the measurement instrument and study aren’t fine enough to detect everything, so there is necessarily some uncertainty.)
They looked at therapist performance for the twelve domains separately. Table II (p. 270) indicates that, looking at domains individually, “reliably improved” rates varied from 55% (depression) to 10% (mania), and “reliably worsened” ranged from 32% (social functioning) to 6% (mania). (All but mania had “reliably worsened” at least 14%). Estimates of negative therapy outcomes that I have seen in previous papers range from 5% to 10%, so this study (based on better evidence than previous ones) indicates that the rate of negative outcomes is higher than previously estimated.
Also from Table II: The only “domain” in which “reliably improved” was greater than 50% was depression (55% in current study, 54% in an earlier 2005 study). This sounds like important information that should be provided to people considering therapy!
Table IV shows the percentage of therapists in each category for each domain. Percent of effective therapists ranged from 69% for depression to 0.7% for mania. Percent who were harmful ranged from 16% (violence, substance abuse) to 0.3% (mania). Those unclassifiable ranged from 99% (mania) to 30% (depression). Again, this is important information that people considering therapy need to make an informed decision!
Table V shows “number of domains in which each therapist was effective, labeling this as a competency.”
• No therapists were rated competent in all 12 domains.
• Only 1 was rated competent in 11 domains
• Percentages for other numbers of competencies ranged from 3% (10 domains) to 14% (5 domains)
• 31 therapists (4%) had no domains of competence; 45 (6%) had just 1.
This substantiates the claim that therapist competence varies widely!
Quoting from pp. 273 – 274: “The implication of this study’s findings must be evaluated within the current healthcare climate. Most notably, it is still not a routine aspect of standard practice to integrate outcome management into clinical care. Therapists often resist these demands, labeling them as intrusive, costly, unnecessary or poorly designed (Lipzin, 2009). Nevertheless, without routine measurement, many clinicians are probably not aware of the helpful or harmful consequences of their treatment decisions. Lambert has shown that most (or all) clinicians believe they are above average and they cannot predict patients who will have a negative treatment outcome (Hannan et al., 2005).
The findings from this study further emphasize the consequences of limited therapist predictive abilities and the problems with not evaluating and questioning one’s professional abilities. As such, standards of ethical practice may require therapists to routinely measure their outcomes and focus their practices where they are most likely to succeed. The product of such standards would help all clinicians improve their outcomes by helping them to avoid patients with whom they are less likely to succeed (until they receive further training and/or supervision), and patients, families, communities, and
employers would benefit from greater productivity, quality of life, and lower healthcare costs.”
(Sounds good to me!)
Thanks Mary S, this piece on the harmful effects of therapy is excellent. This was in fact a great weekend for this blog, because your other post about the positivity lady is interesting and there were two very informative posts by Disequilibrium1.
Thanks to you both
Lynette’s Law, the movement that is trying to criminalize therapy sex abuse and sexual exploitation by mental health professionals in Maryland, just released a video last week that exposes the mental health industry’s secrets of sex offenders, violent felons, and predatory state-hoppers working in the profession. http://www.lynetteslaw4maryland.com/
Michael, thanks for the information, and for your work. It’s outrageous the profession is so resistant to police its own in the most egregious offenses. I’ve read about cases of provable abuse and insurance fraud which are punished with a light wrist slap.
More on the ethics of the psychotherapy industry:
Psychology Association’s Torture Link Fails “Do-No-Harm” Ethics
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/22286-us-psychologys-misplaced-priorities-expediency-over-ethics
So many of them posture that they’re omniscient and clairvoyant. So they’re already unbound by earth’s gravity, hard science or societal law.
How to spot someone in therapy:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/brianna-wiest/2013/09/14-signs-youre-definitely-in-therapy/
One of the many good things I find in participating here, is that I have always been skeptical enough not to fall altogether into trusting therapists. I certainly have been dumber than dumb too often (but, hopefully have learned from my stupidity). After seeing what true horrors some here have gone through due to so-called professionals who are one-level beneath poisonous vipers I consider myself very fortunate.
#12 – I would love to see the nonsense one therapist must have scribbled. Her thoughts were bad enough so I have a clue as to the jibberish she furiously wrote down at 500 characters a minute. Inane ramblings from the minds of overly-educated charlatans and dim-witted fools. How sad we all have paid money and time for such drivel.
Hmm, it wouldn’t be all that bad if number 5 were actually true
Therapy failed to make me, or lead me, toward figuring out ANY answers myself because it launched me onto such an fantasy planet.
Help. Thanks. Wow
Thank you for writing this. I’ve needed to read something like this for a long time. The whole thing was powerful but I wanted to comment specifically on a couple of points.
1. The “no” means “yes” thing. As a survivor of sexual violence, it is hard for me to see a therapist interpreting “no” as “yes” as somehow more noble and acceptable than an abusive partner doing the same thing, yet I am scolded and told that I just don’t know what healthy is due to my trauma history.
2. You mention therapy working like a cult. Having gone through ritual abuse myself I can tell you that at least in terms of the “we know what’s best for you better than you do” type of thinking and the “you’re broken but we have the answers” mentality, it is very cult-like.
The blank slate thing you describe is so frustrating. I have had periods where talking to a therapist feels like talking to a wall. If I were talking to a human being about being abused, they’d respond emotionally versus staying silent and staring at me or even smirking at me or trying to tell me that my assessment of what happened to me is invalid or untrue. I’m so done trying to get therapists to believe me.
The problem is that right now I’m dependent on Zoloft to keep my IBS under control (I know, frustrating) and somehow a lot of doctors think talk therapy is going to help my bowels more than medicine so they’ll try to deny me access to it when it’s the only thing that has helped me. I’ll check out those resources you provided.
Therapists seemed to talk out of both sides of their mouths. They promise us sympathy and understanding, while simultaneously analyzing and interpreting our account–and us–on their assumption that we’re “disordered.” No wonder they can leave us so demoralized.
Well said! I think that this mind game that therapy inflicts on clients — saying they really “care” on the one hand, and assessing people, reaching for a check, and kicking them out after 45 minutes on the other hand — is one of the factors that makes it such a manipulative, destructive enterprise.
I’ve commented on this elsewhere in these terms:
“One way that therapy damages our ability to thrive in natural relationships is that it creates confused signals and blurred lines between authentic mutual relationships and paid service relationships. We’re told to trust the therapist with our most intimate private thoughts from day one, but in authentic relationships we must learn to build trust together through give-and-take over time. We’re told that that therapist cares about us, but then we’re kicked out after 50 minutes and asked for a check. We’re told that the therapist is a “professional” who can assign stigmatizing labels/assessments/diagnoses, but then told that an empathic alliance with her is a source of healing. No human being should have to sort through this kind of a mind game. Let’s stop promoting these mixed signals as healthcare. Let’s acknowledge it for the confusing mess it is (gaslighting), and turn our attention to developing and nurturing loving relationships with people who can love us back in a wholehearted, vulnerable, and equal way.”
In therapy-ville, nothing said or done is as it seems. Their professional literature is all so medicalized, objectifying and detached. Then in walks the patient to that concerned-faced, performed-caring parent figure, dispensing sympathy but with “boundary rules” attached.
Uh huh, yes. It’s weird because it’s this detached sort of support. A friend would say “I believe you were abused and I’m angry that someone did that to you” whereas a therapist would say something like “I believe that you believe you were abused and I believe that you are angry but I can’t take sides but I care.”
I had a rather ordinary problem–a boss who sexually harassed the women. He was more nerdy than predatory, but I was young for my age and intimidated to deal with it. During that time frame I’d seen two therapists. The therapists’ responses:
1) Is he so bad? He hired YOU didn’t he?
2) Oh, he has boundary disturbances.
I finally relayed the story to a friend who finally told me, finally helpfully “you don’t have to put up with that.”
Two therapists were so out there in NeverNeverTheoryLand, they couldn’t be people, nor could they respond sensibly to a simple easy-to-understand problem.
Fiona – what a horror story. Truly scary. Unfortunately, the therapist I saw tried to play mind games with me and test me out by repeating ‘triggers’ that she knew would be sensitive. She then sat back and smirked. I think she was on the sadistic spectrum. And one of the tutors on a training course I did in counselling I consider to have been severely personality-disordered. Actually, make that two. So irresponsible. So reckless. And I know that a least one student who was training on one of the courses at the institution took his own life while on the training program. They did not follow appropriate codes of ethics, in my opinion, given they were dealing with vulnerable people. Some of their methods were just plain nasty. They were absolutely not modelling appropriate behaviour and used techniques like victimization, scape-goating and the like. On the few occasions when I tried to challenge what I saw as appalling behaviour, they would adopt classic defensive strategies – change the subject, or project back on to me. The projection was a classic – I could tell that what they were accusing me of was precisely what they themselves were doing. They really were quite nasty, damaged people who should not be working in the ‘caring’ industry. How and why did the whole therapy industry turn into some kind of psychological Boot Camp? It’s ridiculous and it can only mean that it is meeting the needs of some of the therapists rather than the therapists trying to help clients heal.
SO TRUE! btw – the student who committed suicide: was he/she studying to be a counselor? and how did the institution ‘handle’ his suicide? Do you think certain instructors there had something to do with his horrible depression?
Damaged sick people with immature power fantasies are attracted to having power over vulnerable people.
Most of the therapists I have met were useless- a few were OK- one was outstanding- the rest they were inadequate types that needed therapy more than I did.
Who needs therapy? Anyone with the smallest concern about his behavior, feeling or something he’s doing, according to this quiz.
I gamed the results of this self-assessment, answering “just a little” to every relevant question. The result was I still needed therapy. Is there a soul alive who lives completely without worry or abrasion?
http://psychcentral.com/therapy/
This is all too true. All of it. I haven’t been dealing with therapy for a long time but I can say that I have experienced exactly what you are talking about. I knew better than to report anything because the subject of mental disorder is a sensitive thing in society and these people will say anything to make themselves look better and appear not to be at fault. It’s really discouraging but the more I look into it, the more relieved I am that I never said anything.
This debunking of the modality-du-jour was sometime back. Psychologists finally figured out we don’t empty out our anger by screaming it away or through a delivering pillows an adequate number of blows with tennis rackets. Carole Tavris also covers this in Anger: The Misunderstood Emotion.
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/myths/myth_30.cfm
However the belief still seems to linger that if we cry enough we can empty the river. Or that a feeling or behavior had its genesis in a specific moment– we can break the witch’s spell if we only can recall the turning point and say it aloud.
How nice therapists lead us us to believe that we’re as simple as car engines requiring an oil change. If only the story was true.
Hi
I thought I’d add my experience to the mix.
I entered private therapy following a serious and sudden physical health diagnosis which led to all hell breaking lose with my emotions. I decided to go with an experienced clinical psychologist thinking they would be able to help me and was clear from the outset in stating what I needed: emotional support and coping strategies.
What I got was something else. The psychologist embarked on psychodynamic therapy, digging into my past, my ‘dismissive attachment style’ and wanted to focus on ‘the relationship’ It confused me and made me doubt myself to the point where I began to lose confidence. Suddenly I’m no longer dealing with just one issue but lots more on top. My self identity which was already in cahoots due to my diagnosis took a further hammering. My valiant attempts in raising my concerns and trying to steer the therapy towards my feelings around the diagnosis fell on deaf ears. Bottom line the therapy made me feel 10x worse.
Eventually I saw the light and left. The psychologist was more concerned to know if I would miss them and put no value on the feelings of despondency I stated at this point. I left a lot poorer, none the wiser and feeling quite hopeless about things. I though if someone of that level of training cant help me then who can?
Some time later I decided to try someone else. They were horrified the psychologist had felt I had been a good candidate for psychodynamic therapy given it is designed to stir things up. It was the last thing I needed during a period of crisis in my life. What I needed most of all was stability, validity and basic coping strategies. I only had one session with the second therapist as they were more helpful to me in that time then all the hours I had spent with the previous one.
Looking back I’m ashamed how long it took me to leave and why I put up with what I did. I guess desperate people do desperate things and I was desperate at the time hence my reason for seeking therapy in the first place.
Lesson learnt. Trust your gut and proceed with caution.
On the positive I’ve realised I’m quite sane and more resilient then I had thought.
That’s another big reason why I left my last therapist. She would take the issues I presented her and make them bigger than what they actually were. Whenever I raised concerns they were ignored; she only wanted to discuss what she felt was ‘interesting’. Like you, I lost total confidence in the negative feelings I had about the situation but I still continued with the mindset that simply by being in therapy I was finally doing something beneficial for myself and my health.
I’ll never forget what she said to me in the last few months I was seeing her. She constantly asked me if I wanted to see another therapist, which gave me the impression that she was tired of dealing with me since she always brought it up whenever she told me I wasn’t cooperating. She said I’d never achieve what I wanted in life if I didn’t change; at the time I told myself she was trying to motivate me and I ignored the fact that she made me feel worse. Then I asked myself: How does this serve as motivation when I told her this was one of my insecurities? How is this motivation if she is obviously making me feel bad?
She knew just what to say to keep me feeling down because I had been seeing her long enough for her to know me. I walked out of our last few sessions convinced I shouldn’t stay with her. Took me a few months but I finally did it. At our ‘goodbye session’ she asked me why I wanted to end therapy, even though I had told her a number of times before. Again I lied and said that I felt better. I am 99% sure she wrote something else as my response and her observations for her records. She acted awkward about me leaving, but I am 100% sure she was relieved because of the new therapist comments and since I had been with her for so long.
Well, so was I. It’s been a few months since then; at the time I thought if I ever felt the need I would go back to the center she was working in and indeed see someone else. I recently decided against that and have scheduled an intake elsewhere. She lost a client because she was purposely putting me down and making me feel guilty since we both knew I felt I needed therapy. Here’s how I see it: she won’t be benefiting from me anymore. She’ll no longer feel satisfied for putting me down *and* she won’t see a dollar from me again.
Anon Please DO NOT judge yourself. We are not educated as consumers at all about any product or service. AND even more so about a service like therapy which is shrouded in ‘mystery’. Unless someone who has been through it tells us about their experience, what the heck do WE know about it??? I am completely convinced that it is the Therapists themselves, who bear the burden of ALL that they do wrong. THEY are the ones educated about their profession, what to offer as services, etc. THEY deserve all of our anger. WE deserve none of it.
Also, I laughed when I read how the therapist had her very own agenda in your case. Once again, they completely ignore that YOU are the client, YOU are paying for the services, and you know what you needed. Its completely like you going to a doctor, asking him/her to look at and treat a pimple on your face, and instead, they amputate your leg. Hello! The doctor’s license should (and would) be disciplined, but the therapist’s?? Ha!
I am sick and tired of (most) of their profession ignoring the destructive hurricane in its midst. And whenever you try to bring it up to them they respond with their psychobbbbbbable. If I would bring up to one of them about how she used the wrong type of therapy on you, I know what many would say “Correctly diagnosing/assessing a patient’s needs is difficult” or “she was the one who probably properly saw that the patient needed this type of therapy” blah blah.The fact that You came out feeling worse than when you went in? They would ignore that. I cant stand it.
I remember when I first thought of leaving my ex-husband. I saw a psychiatrist who just said “Well, maybe you don’t have to leave him”. Then a psychologist told me: “Why aren’t you getting divorced already?”
Finally, about two years later, a new therapist, who was young, but far wiser than either of those two worthless slobs simply said to me in a caring way:
” Well, what is it that YOU want to do?” I couldn’t believe it! Someone who actually CARED what his patient wanted. And – he helped me leave my now ex because that is what I WANTED.
My experience in psychotherapy was the OPPOSITE of informed consent. Do they tell you the experience will be destabilizing or likely will affect life and relationships? Do they tell you therapy often is belittling and infantilizing and will enlarge and manipulate one’s worse self-doubts?
My allergist, for heaven sake, handed me a sheet with clear information about success percentages and hazards of immunotherapy. He wanted me to be aware of any adverse reactions. He wanted me to report if a medication failed to work.
It seems that so many therapists are so enraptured by their own theory, so brainwashed by their perception as sorcerers (“we don’t know how it works, but it does”) that they forgo common sense and get highly defensive at suggestion of the naked emperor.
Anon,
Thank you for adding your experience to the mix.
It seems so nonsensical, lacking in both common sense and human compassion, for a therapist to foist psychodynamic therapy on you when you were seeking support and help coping in the wake of a serious health diagnosis.
My own experience was different from yours in some ways (in particular, I went for a different problem, and the “theory” the therapist tried was different), but the similarities are striking: I, too, thought that an experienced clinical psychologist (in my case, one who had been recommended by another psychotherapist I “interviewed” over the phone) would be a wise choice. Like yours, that psychologist viewed me through the lens of a “theory” rather than in terms of needing support and help coping. Like you, I doubted myself, lost confidence, yet tried repeatedly to bring up my concerns, only to have my efforts fall on deaf ears. When I finally quit her I was in much, much worse shape than when I started. I am so, so sorry you had to go through this; that anyone has to go through this. I hope that our telling our experiences here can help others quit earlier than I did, before getting too much worse for the experience.
I have also, like you, felt ashamed that it took me as long as it did to quit. I keep imagining people asking me why I stayed with her as long as I did, and I often feel excruciatingly ashamed and afraid that someone will actually ask me. Sometimes I can imagine saying something like, “Let’s just say that I trusted her judgment too much, and didn’t trust my own better judgment enough,” but other times I just get lost in the shame and it degenerates into self-hatred. I know intellectually that that is not good, but the emotions still often dominate the intellect.
I am very glad to hear that you did eventually have a good experience with the second therapist. I hope that is a sign that things are improving at least a little. (My experience above was more than 25 years ago; I hope yours was more recent.) In fact, the therapist I describe above was the second I tried; I had a negative experience with the first, but quit her after four sessions. She left me with the parting words that I “expected too much; that was My Problem.” This undoubtedly contributed to my sticking with the second therapist for three months. And when I tried a third therapist, I made the mistake again; although she initially seemed better than the previous two, after a couple of months she got into an “agenda” (in her case, that I needed medication for depression) and went against her initial assurances that she let her patients (I decided to try a psychiatrist after two psychologists) know what she was doing. It wasn’t until several years later that I found a therapist who said, “That ain’t the way it’s s’posed to be,” at which point my anxiety level dropped noticeably (but still was well above normal).
I wouldn’t wish my experiences on anyone. I hope that our relating our experiences can help other psychotherapy clients have more confidence that quitting is appropriate when they encounter “therapy” of the sort we did – and maybe can even convince some therapists with counter-helpful practices to change, and can help convince those who do practice sensible therapy to back efforts to lessen the incidence of such harmful therapy.
Anon, I entered therapy with less specific goals–seeking a cure for being a square peg I guess–and also feel pulled into a pointless lagoon. While I regret my credulousness, I decided that therapists might be the most gullible of all. They’re the ones selling these fictional metaphors that we can dispel emotions similar to heart surgery or lancing a wound or perhaps by recalling some (simple) genesis then saying it aloud.
All this folklore is dispensed with the trappings of medical and academic endorsement, validated by research, as questionable as it may be.
I certainly found therapy destabilizing, and certainly wasn’t warned. Nor did therapists assess whether my circumstances–demanding jobs in my case–made me a good candidate for the upheaval.
I consider therapy an exceedingly contaminated laboratory for assessment of anyone’s “attachment style.” The relationship is far too engineered, restricted and manipulative of the client’s vulnerabilities to resemble client relationships elsewhere. I wonder if therapists ever discover an “attachment style” they don’t consider needing repair. So many clients on internet forums anguish about their “faulty” attachments and their normal human traits now identified as “issues.”
Congratulations for escaping that skewed belief system. I’m sorry you had to suffer that professional’s delusion atop your own health crisis.I believe many therapists will never consider their own folly.
Unsurprising finding:
Harms not systematically reported in randomized controlled trials of psychological interventions for mental and behavioral disorders: A review of current practice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24607768
“Conclusion: Important information about harms is not reported systematically within this research field, suggesting that the risk of reporting bias is nontrivial in conclusions about the risk-benefit ratio of psychological treatments….”
Thanks anon (the other one :)) for the reference. I recall reading somewhere recently that more about harmful effects seen in medical clinical trials is being posted on clinicaltrials.gov than in the publications resulting from the clinical trials, so it is not at all surprising that the publications of results of psychological clinical trials also are sparse on mention of harmful side effects. I’ve located the paper you reference, so will read it as soon as I get a chance and report back here any details beyond what’s on the link you gave that seem worthwhile to share.
Yes, we have two anons posting.
The article looks interesting. Some of these articles will be accessible on databases through public and academic libraries. I’ll see if I can access it.
This article may be of interest to this group http://www.popularresistance.org/meeting-the-needs-of-the-power-structure/
Not a revelation to me though..Just a reflection of my own vision of the profession’s role in our society..
Thanks for the article W-M. I think that individual suffering is varied and easily can stem for a lack of options and lower social and work status. The therapist, as yet another layer of authority, can add to the burden rather than alleviate it. And yes, suffering easily can ripple to and from our larger social systems which psychotherapy seems to ignore.
I’m mid-travels, but heard from a Polish author/blogger who’s a kindred spirit, and I’ll link to his blog. I hope to explore more later. Please feel free to visit and comment.
http://forbiddenpsychology.wordpress.com
Free text of a short book copyright 1910 called Primitive Psycho-Therapy and Quackery by Robert Means Lawrence MD. In my quick read, I saw many parallels with what passes as accepted practice today.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23293/23293-h/23293-h.htm
I’ve begun to explore Polish writer Tomasz Witkowski’s blog and find there’s much that relates to our discussions. He has books forthcoming in English. I’ll post a three of his entries, but there is more. Feel free to support him and add to his posts.
On the inevitability of treatment bias:
On his hoax!
Click to access Psychological_Sokal-style_hoax.pdf
And for those who critique research data:
Thanks for sharing! I especially appreciated Witkowski’s post on the art of psychotherapy — and the disregarded scraps or collateral damage that is an inherent part of the process of creating a work of art. It’s a very honest and under-appreciated point. Clinical psychology doesn’t stand up well as a science, but if treating it as an art causes unforeseeable harm to random clients, then what’s left? (Here’s another article that points out the fact that harm happens but tends to go unrecognized in psychotherapy: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24607768)
I recently came across some interesting writings on the non-scientific/pseudoscientific status of clinical psychology that may also be of interest:
http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html
http://www.arachnoid.com/reader_exchanges/can_psychology_become_a_science.html
http://www.arachnoid.com/building_science/index.html
http://www.arachnoid.com/trouble_with_psychology/index.html
These links are also posted here: http://trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/links/
In any case, from my perspective, the fact that clinical psychology/psychotherapy doesn’t hold up as an art or science is important, but almost secondary to the more fundamental problem that the structure of the artificial asymmetrical therapy relationship depends on an unethical, dehumanizing way of relating to our fellow human beings.
PS – Witkowski’s The Art of Psychotherapy post that I was referring to above is here: http://forbiddenpsychology.wordpress.com/2014/05/04/the-art-of-psychotherapy/
I also enjoyed reading his web site.
One of the problems is that DO therapists know that we were very unhappy with their therapy? I know that when I left therapists, I usually just never came back. I was sick & tired of them, and knew that even IF I did tell them why they were awful, they would most likely turn around what I said and ‘blame’ me for leaving. I guess all of us should speak up more – hence, blogs like this one – and keep telling the profession of their abuses.
From my personal experience and conversations around the web, therapists’ default stance either is to deflect blame or rationalize “the messenger” either is an unhappy camper or saw unqualified therapists. The profession seems to work hard to remain undisturbed by contrary evidence.
A correspondent sent me an nice article in the Guardian today. I’m glad negative outcome is under study, but despair that ever so often the profession seems to invent the wheel.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/may/26/misjudged-counselling-psychological-therapy-harmful-study-reveals
Here’s a link to the study:
https://www.shef.ac.uk/scharr/sections/hsr/mh/mhresearch/adeptproject
Here’s a link to a UK site for consumers, including those harmed in therapy:
http://www.supportingsafetherapy.org/clients
Thanks for the link! I left this comment:
Glad this is being studied. There is far too much collateral damage in the psychotherapy industry.
“If you won’t take responsibility when things go badly, you give up the right to take credit when things go well.”
This quote about responsibility applies to psychotherapists, who are fond of taking credit whenever their clients happen to do well (even if they had nothing to do with it), and of blaming the victim/client whenever things go badly (e.g., the client was “resistant,’ “defensive,” “not ready for change,” etc.).
That credit/blame paradox is how I see therapists too. My comment mysteriously was deleted, perhaps because I included links. There’s an strong ratio of skepticism, as opposed to true believers, in the comments section.
It’s those fabulous Links for Shrinks, pondering the topic “Why does it seem to be so common for people in our field to be snarky to one another?” If they think they’re snarky to one another, they should experience their bile from the view of those seeing them as authority figures.
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/Why-does-it-seem-be-1055237.S.5852435088528138241?qid=bd7e5a40-8a26-4a80-9c89-e360a03c4401&trk=groups_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=.gde_1055237_member_5877833833738420226.gmp_1055237
Looks like some psych industry renegades are having second thoughts about one of their big-box products: self esteem. Of course the story itself has the overgeneralizing know-the-universe that they do so well.
http://www.salon.com/2014/05/25/low_self_esteem_is_good_for_you_weve_been_too_successful_at_making_people_feel_good/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
This essay on how damaging psychologists can be, and often are, was very well-written. I feel the fact that many “psychologists” are just highly paid charlatans is not addressed often enough in our society and I commend you on trying to shine light on this glaring and often unaddressed problem.
Thanks, Diogenes. Critics in and out of the field have an uphill battle. I’ve found there’s very little literature even acknowledging the possible harm from therapy. And deterioration generally is blamed on the client or one of the “few bad apples.” I so rarely see anyone question the overall speculative theory that’s foisted on the public and represented as science.
A few interesting articles:
http://childtrends.org/?programs=cambridge-somerville-youth-study
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Somerville_Youth_Study
This study showed that childhood therapy may have had negative effects on the children: the children who received therapy were more likely to commit more crimes. (A nice objective outcome measure.) This may be a relevant addition to the national conversation on mental health following the recent youth shootings in the US.
And
http://anp.sagepub.com/content/43/9/787.full
… on side-effects of psychotherapy.
(Quick response) It’s been a while since I’ve looked at Whitaker, but early chapters talk about treatment being harmful rather than helpful.
Here’s an article that questions the therapy culture and and the Elliott Rodger as a product of the “therapy culture.” Of course one will never know if the cure was actually the disease, but I think this asks a very important question.
http://reason.com/archives/2014/05/27/could-therapy-culture-help-explain-ellio
Thanks for the interesting article on therapy culture. I added it to the list here: http://trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/links/
As we examine mental health care policy in the US, I hope that the policies we come up with are based on valid evidence, and not anecdotes, cherry-picked observational studies, or wishes to feel like we’re doing something. I hope that the lessons from the Cambridge-Somerville Youth Study are taken into account, and that there is some effort to understand and test the impact of therapy culture. As you point out, it is hard to measure the quality of a human life, but there are a few objective outcome measures we could focus on, like suicide, homicide, and crime rates.
Discussant, feel free to link to your blog updates here. I found a couple of more articles on the under-explored topic of harm.
Click to access When%20Interventions%20Harm%20-%20Peer%20Groups%20and%20Problem%20Behavior.pdf
Click to access 2008PreventingHarmintheNameofHelp.pdf
A search of “therapy culture” yielded a book a journal article. You can see the entire article on the first page by clicking the pdf link:
http://freeassociations.org.uk/journal/index.php/fapcmgp/article/view/32
http://www.culturewars.org.uk/index.php/article/critical_therapy_culture/
Here is a handy little test that could help to determine whether a relationship between adults is ethical or not:
Ask oneself: “Would it be okay for me to go out for lunch with this person and tell them what I did last weekend?”
If not, then there may be some distancing/dehumanizing boundaries and manipulative power tactics going on.
As therapy is currently structured in the US, therapists could not pass this test with respect to their clients. To the extent that a professional or other adult relationship erects such artificial boundaries and depends on such codified power asymmetries, it’s hard to see how anything ‘therapeutic’ and could come of it. Even in professional boss-employee relations, there is (or ought to be) recognition of the human-to-human side of the relationship, and bosses certainly can and are often encouraged to let their guards down, show their vulnerabilities, show their human side, ask for input and feedback from their employees, collaborate, share resources and connections, attend social gatherings, network, etc.
Probably you will not read this. It’s 8/2019 after all! I have had the same thought numerous times. Really, it’s bizarre!
A few articles on the state of psychology and psychotherapy research:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2014/jun/10/physics-envy-do-hard-sciences-hold-the-solution-to-the-replication-crisis-in-psychology
http://idiolect.org.uk/notes/?p=5890
http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2014/06/10/salvaging-psychotherapy-research-manifesto/
The essence of my comment is that you can’t play dice with human lives.
The burden of proof is on proponents of these psychotherapies to show that they are making good use of their clients’ time and money, and that the risk-benefit ratio is favorable. In the absence of having met this burden, they ought to stop practicing, or at a bare minimum clearly inform all of their clients of the weak status of the evidence and indeterminate risk as part of a transparent informed consent process.
Lives have been ruined and people have even been killed from non-science-based therapies such as attachment therapy, repressed memory therapy, gay conversion therapy, etc. When a therapy is not grounded in robust replicable scientific evidence, the outcome is a crap-shoot: you’re recklessly experimenting with human lives with potentially profound and devastating consequences.
“If you won’t take responsibility when things go badly, you give up the right to take credit when things go well.”
The psychotherapy industry has done an egregiously poor job of tracking and taking responsibility for the harm it causes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24607768 and http://www.comppsychjournal.com/article/S0010-440X%2814%2900006-6/abstract
There is no justification for therapists, no matter how good their intentions are, to go on engaging in dehumanizing relationships and playing dice with human lives.
Everything in my therapy seemed 95 percent improvised. Most was the therapist pretending understanding and sympathy, as if saying something aloud would excavate and neutralize history. I’d love to see scientific proof of that fairy tale.
It’s difficult to intervene in another person’s life, even when we’re close and have a larger, on-the-ground picture.
Purely practical note: Your library card might allow access to some of these journal articles through databases such as Ebsco and Proquest. You might also be eligible for library privileges through your state or local university and through alumni associations. Additionally, paid libraries, like Questia have numerous psych articles which I’ve yet to explore.
WHY DON’T THERAPISTS EVER ADMIT THAT THEY CANNOT RESOLVE SOME OF THEIR OWN PROBLEMS, AND THAT THIS MAY JUST MEAN THAT THEY CAN’T HELP OTHERS WITH THE SAME PROBLEMS????! I just read a book review of: “Faith Unravels: A Rabbis Struggle with Grief and God” by Daniel Greyber. Apparently, he lost someone VERY close to him, and struggled terribly in trying to handle the death, including struggling with his faith in God. This included questioning his OWN ability to counsel others who were facing the same struggles. If he can admit to that – WHY can’t therapists??? (To be fair, he is unusual in being able to do this, but AT LEAST HE DID).
I remember seeing my first therapist, who was estranged from her brother, and, unbeknownst to me, also struggling with her marriage. During my time with her, my OWN brother stopped speaking to me for a long time, and I was struggling with men, in dating.
She was awful re: these issues. (Which is logical, if you think about it). But acted like SHE was so all-powerful that SHE could be a great counselor on ANY topic. What the h…?? Why is it that they think they can be super human? That their own feelings/problems/inabilities will NOT prevent them from adequately counseling someone else?? And what do they teach these therapists, if anything, in their own grad programs re: these situations??? I have almost NEVER seen a therapist write that they ‘doubt’ their abilities.
In what other profession has this ever happened to this extent??? I know of none. As a lawyer, for example, if I can offer services doing simple wills, but a particular client’s situation gets far more serious/complex, I refer them to a lawyer who specializes in that field. That is COMMON, and no big deal. It is no reflection on any ‘inability’ that I have, but should not have, etc. (although, in other ways, lawyers are not saints, by any means).
I just don’t get this. I still remember how hurt I was – paying money to this woman who ‘promised’ to help me, when she couldn’t solve her OWN problems, and worse than that, refused to look at the fact that she couldn’t help me solve mine. This profession sucks so badly, and I am SO angry about it.
Resharpen, I share your outrage. I was so naive when I began, and my mesmerized trust and idealization, which I believe the therapists stoked, made the damage far worse.
The more I read, the more I believe their self-perceived omniscience is the product of their training and culture. Their literature seems pathologizing, objectifying and even ridiculing of clients, as I noted in this new so-called ethics book here. Note how the two professionals responded to me.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R21EO2WEQ56PJX/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R21EO2WEQ56PJX
It seems therapists are trained to play the role of immutable authorities, clients view them in that light and the feeding the myth becomes circular.
Of course, therapists possess no special powers, no more than anyone else. In fact they see clients briefly, in a highly restricted, artificial setting, requiring the client to behave in a way that would be unlikely in real life. (I’m imagining social interaction if we all spilled out our fear and stream-of-conscious thoughts all day.)
It’s difficult enough to intervene for a close friend or family member in grave circumstances, even when we have a ground-floor view. Therapists can be the LAST to know what’s happening with their clients–I experienced this is in my family.
I imagine therapists emerge from training with scant equipment to cope with the client expectations they face. So it seems they extemporize. The trusting client believes the shaman, and over time the shaman. believes his own publicity.
I agree, I’ve yet to see lawyers, doctors or any other profession behave like this. They readily admit the their specialties and they extent of their knowledge.
I had a similar experience with a therapist not admitting they weren’t sufficiently equipped to handle the case. Only that in this case, she actually did admit it but in a cheeky and half-arsed way.
In couples therapy I and my ex went to, the therapist was throwing random stuff, random explanations, often contradictory and didn’t like it when I had doubts, to the point she said I was a ‘but-woman’ – saying ‘yes, but’, questioning a lot of her points and actually once or twice she even said sorry for doing that, but she said it not without self-flattery, that she’s actually that good to notice that I might be inhibited to express my doubts because of her attitude. Which I was, because I got the impression I upset her with my questions, beside risking being called a ‘but-woman’ again or having a sarcastic remark or my question/doubt being treated as trivial or laughable or just unworthy of an answer. (sometimes I would get silence for an answer.)
The funny thing is I went to see her a few months after I finished the couples therapy. She hadn’t really brought us closer to solve the problems in the relationship or made it better in any way and I was still struggling with the same issues and having the same problems. I couldn’t understand my then boyfriend and his behaviours, which for me was the reason we went to therapy in the first place. After the therapy was over, we were still on-and-off and I still faced the same dilemmas and same questions. As it was getting worse, as naive as I was, I went to see her, as she was the person allegedly acquainted with the case and – being unable to find answers and help elsewhere – I chose to see her again, but alone. I also felt I’d been very misunderstood during the couples therapy. As I really cared about getting the situation with my ex right, I printed out some talks I had with him to show her, so she could see what our interaction was really like and maybe help me make sense of his behaviour and the situation. She promised to read it for the next session. The next session she said she’d thrown that away, because she thought it wouldn’t be right if on the basis of her opinion I would make a choice whether to stay with him or not. (Which was not what I came for – I wanted to understand the situation, not necessarily came for a fixed answer whether to stay or leave.) After listening to me and some situations, she said “Hmm, from what you’re saying it really does look like he didn’t care” (About which I had had doubts all along but those doubts were silences during the couples therapy and even the official version for the end of the therapy was that he really cared but I was – you name it – discouraged, didn’t care enough, whatever, which wasn’t true at all, but I was tired of “contradicting” and my mind was messed up big time.) Then she went on to say something along these lines: “What if I lacked experience or intelligence to understand your case at the couples therapy?”. I thought “if so, then you shouldn’t have said so and shouldn’t have taken the money, made new appointments and prolonged the sessions”, but I didn’t say it aloud because I knew what her reply would be as confrontational as she was. She would have probably said she’d had good intentions and was hoping for progress and making it out. She looked like she was using lack of competence as a legitimate excuse and not something to be ashamed of. I don’t really understand how thick you must be not to see that it’s plainly wrong and illogical to lead the therapy in the way that discourages questioning, calls you resistant and so on, and later “admitting” that you didn’t really understand the situation altogether and not even get a hint you did something wrong.
And it looked like she took pride in being able to admit her incompetence or lack of intelligence, as well as took pride in saying sorry once or twice. As if to show she was a regular human as well as a great expert open to feedback, and not like all those lousy know-it-alls out there. Her “self-reflection” was not much more than a tool used to sustain the impression of her greatness. I haven’t been quick to judge (which is probably a common trait of those who end up in therapy) but after some experiences, I’d say it IS pathetic that therapists tend to be so “deep”, especially about themselves, while expecting you to dig God knows where in your psyche.
It almost seems like therapist accreditation is a license to pull interpretations out of their pants pockets and say all the snide, patronizing things they please under the guise of–helping. I speculate if we reported a friend or spouse treating us like they do, they’d likely us the relationship is “toxic” and tutor us how to “assert ourselves.”
I don’t think anything happens in therapy that erases social hierarchy or our social conditioning with one another. I don’t view all this catty baloney as “treatment.”
SLV,
Thanks for your post. My therapy experience was not couples therapy, but a lot of what you say resonates with my experience.
First, the “throwing random stuff, random explanations, often contradictory” – sounds like what I’ve called capricious and arbitrary.
Then there’s the “yes, but …” phenomenon: The therapist says something that leaves out a lot of the picture, so it’s rational for the client to respond, “Yes, but …” to bring in more of the whole picture. But then the therapist responds by a “technique” such as “but-woman,” or sarcasm, or trivializing, or laughing, or silence, or, … that serves to stymy the client’s attempts at rational, realistic discussion. (I call these comments “shut-ups”—they usually fall just short of a put-down, but serve to cut of meaningful communication.)
And the inability to distinguish between a request for information to aid understanding and “giving an opinion that would influence you.” I found it so frustrating that therapists tended to give “bottom-line” statements (with no explanation of their reasoning) rather than information that I could use as input in decision-making.
And weird comments like her, “What if …” statement.
And patting herself on the back for the tinyest semblance of courtesy.
Part of my naivete when I tried therapy was expecting that therapists would set a good example. Sadly, they usually did just the opposite.
My therapist confided that I was her most difficult patient and she didn’t know what to do for me. In hindsight I wish I had re-emphasized that she needed to listen to what I was saying rather than what she was always thinking or how she
misinterpreted most of what I said. She was out of her league because of her insistence of putting everything thing in a neat little box of her own making rather than understanding me and my life experience. She could never see beyond her own myopic beliefs and in the end caused more harm. Buyer beware, I guess …
The moment a therapist steps over that delusional, self-congratulatory line and to herself qualified to judge another person’s life, I think this is a foundation for damage.
disequilibrium did you post on Amazon as Sue?
I just replied to your review with my story-same one I put up there ^ and the Guardian articles and everywhere else I can find 🙂
Although those ‘professionals’ dismissed you at some level they know full well you are speaking the truth.
You embarrassed them because you forced them to check their prejudice and flippant enjoyment of the dehumanising objectification of the clients in that book.
Fiona, yes, I was the “Sue’ commenter. I thought that discussion between the foul-tempered dismissive “ethicists” and me was extremely revealing. I agree, there’s a reason they were so eager to quash my contention that the “ethics” book was so ridiculing and dehumanizing. When I see discussions about psych ethics these days, they seem to center around defending themselves against complaints as opposed to doing the right thing for clients.
anon
Here’s a post about how psychotherapists tragically increased the trauma of some 9/11 survivors:
______________________________________________________
Therapy does increase the trauma for some people.
Some ppl are so developmentally damaged it isn’t going to help because they have a disordered brain- no amount of talking is going to fix that.
Its caused by developmental trauma as a baby/infant.
Ive read a book called Neurofeedback in the treatment of developmental trauma and it makes a lot of sense.
Perhaps the NHS should replace psychotherapy with brain training.
I hope this doesn’t mean my brain is disordered. Because I personally find harm in an authority figure coaxing me to revisit trauma that I best leave behind. Truly no offense taken. :-), I’m an extremely facetious lady in person.
My point is I’m skeptical that psych providers have any screening for any modality. Help or harm seems a shot in the dark. (For the record, my brain, disordered or not, has become much calmer over the decades.)
The more I read, the more I question any information I receive from the psych field–the source of trauma and potential remedies. For every technique, there seems a gallery full of promoters and doubters. There’s a lively debate on Psychology Today about neurofeedback with Christian Jarrett playing devil’s advocate and many responders defending it.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-myths/201302/read-paying-100s-neurofeedback-therapy-0/comments
I’ve personally ventured into body therapies that would set some people’s eyes rolling, including rolfing. Practitioners made no specific promises however.
As I reflect how I’ve returned from traumas, accidents and betrayals, I find my recovery in moving forward and rebuilding. Sometime happened quickly, other times decades. This didn’t involve someone playing “expert” to guide me, nor was it a process that I could shortcut.
I just read that back and ‘some people are so brain disordered’ sounded wrong.
Just to explain personally I do feel my problem is to do with my brain chemistry due to deficient attachment with a mother figure.
Ive read widely on the subject of early developmental trauma and how early interactions with caregivers shape the brain and its pathways.
Therapy hasn’t really helped me -Im keen to try this new fangled neurofeedback thingy and fix the behavioural patterns of my brain -apparently it costs a fortune- theres a clinic opened in London I read about it in the Daily Mail.
I think I understand what you mean. Can I throw in my thoughts, as a veteran seeker?
I too came from a tense, unhappy family, am a mild-manner person and frequent square peg. I’ve gone through the gamut, psychotherapy, body therapy, various groups and seminars, tapes, books, a large array or self-discovery.
Others have said, as I concluded, it’s human desire to escape early confines and definitions, to be happier, to transcend who I am. I believe I’ve made changes, but found that the psych industry had no help for me.
I ultimately found the entire vocabulary and labeling in psych think hurt me–to think of myself as defective, as something that needs fixing. Much better to realize I’m NOT special. I’ve yet to meet a human that didn’t have pockets of fear, irrationality and defenses. I can’t imagine anyone getting through life unscathed. So a therapist stoking this idea, that I was cheated, that I’m a machine to be “fixed” didn’t help me.
I did find some psych modalities offered temporary hope and optimism, and that might well have value for someone else. I’ve found my own ways of calming and soothing. I’ve grown and matured in my work life–experience is a great teacher–so think that I’m more methodical when conflict arises.
I’ve felt better the more I’ve escaped psych-think–that I’m defective, that I require some professional attention to repair. I think the tools for feeling better and (maybe less dramatic) transformation are all around us, with intimates if we have them, in friends, in work, on road where we might take a stroll and even interesting conversations on the internet.
The psych industry long fooled me they held some magic key. Now I believe they know no more about life than anyone else.
That’s not to say something that failed me might work for someone else. But I’ve grown skeptical of magic chalices.
Ive tried almost everything as well and apart from Transpersonal psychotherapy years and years ago it all came to nothing.
It was a massive relief when I realized my ptsd problems were caused by trauma as a baby and seeking psychotherapy counselling hypnotherapy etc was an absolute waste of time and money.
I just read that Psychology Today article its so funny the two experts having a row 🙂 🙂 so undignified.
I will know trying something, having hope, then being disappointed.
The more I know, the more I think everyone is a little crazy. Seriously.
I do believe anxiety can lessen without special treatment or technique. I’ve outgrown so much need for opinion seeking and drama.
I just read the BEST article ever re: Horrible Couples’ Counselors. I don’t know about any of you, but I have had some so crappy that the dirt off the bottom of my shoe would have done a better job. The author explains that, except in programs for marriage & family counselors, that NO TRAINING PROGRAM FOR THERAPISTS REQUIRES THAT THEY TAKE A COURSE IN COUPLES’ COUNSELING!!! At best, they may choose to take a course in ‘Family Counseling” which is usually about counseling parents and their children.
Therefore, fresh out of school, these grads do couples’ counseling, without one whit of training and having had absolutely NO professor having watched them do it in school, and offering them supervision, critiquing, etc. The author even says that almost no students have done a practicum in school in couples’ counseling.
Yet they gone on after graduation and claim they can DO marital counseling. Yeah, right. After, that type of therapy is ‘very’ popular – and these idiots have to make a living. No matter how many lives they hurt, and marriages they help ruin. The author calls it “therapist-assisted marital suicide.”
He wisely explains: “The biggest problem in couples therapy, beyond the raw incompetence that sadly abounds, is the myth of therapist neutrality, which keeps us from talking about our values with one another and our clients. If you think you’re neutral, you can’t frame clinical decisions in moral terms, let alone make your values known to your clients. . . The therapist’s moral values are writ large on these clinical landscapes, but we can’t talk about them without violating the neutrality taboo. And for clients, there’s the scary fact that what therapists can’t talk about may be decisive in their therapy”.
As for myself, I will talk another time about my own horrific experiences at the hands of inept ‘couples counselors’. The article:
http://www.psychotherapynetworker.org/magazine/populartopics/couples/475-bad-couples-therapy
I’ve never done couple’s therapy, but have heard it ridiculed by friends.I can imagine the hucksterism of therapy, the clairvoyant, omniscient wizard, the delusional pursuit of Personal Happiness with a capital P-H would be in direct conflict with the everyday realities of marriage.
I can imagine, mirthfully and ironically, trying to improve a conflicted relationship via the make-work homework and the structuralized “communication” of therapy-ville. ” I hear you saying you felt –anger–when I spent our grocery budget for cat statuettes on ebay.” “When I expressed –hurt –when you spent the entire evening with our bimbo neighbor Trixie, I feel you didn’t hear me.” The path to true happiness is talking to one’s beloved like a robot.
I heard about a therapist, fully sympathetic to the wife, ganging up for a “call husband on the carpet” session, commanding the guy to side with his wife against his adult child. The wife thoroughly enjoyed it, and now the therapist serves as “amazing” support as she dissolves the therapist-indentified “bad marriage.”
And I saw a one of those master therapist videos where a therapist instructs that compromise among a couple in conflict about the prospects of parenthood is to create a timeline. Apparently this clairvoyant therapist knows a schedule will make the husband change his mind and embrace fatherhood.
As that article seems to suggest, the fabricated “ideal” of the perfect therapy couple conflicts with the idealized, fulfilled individual. On one hand, I think therapy sometimes might be more honest when it addresses a specific problem, as opposed to vague “healing.” However, a troubled couple beseeching the wizard for solutions is more magical thinking.
Here’s a lively discussion on the Mad in American blog questioning the practices of self-focus, rumination and “catharsis” so common in many therapies.
http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/06/when-talk-therapy-can-cause-harm/
As to the blog you referred us to, Disequil, what I focused on was this garbage ((IMHO) expressed by the ‘head’ therapist:
“If a client feels hurt by a verbal insult, isn’t the problem that the client chooses to believe the name caller. How can one be hurt by another person’s words (short of a physical assault). I also remember Michele Weiner-Davis, talking about a client she had who was raped. The client did not wish to talk about it because she was not going to give the rapist one more moment of her attention. Seems to me a pretty healthy response. Moreover, I recall a fellow student in graduate school, who was raped by an intruder the day before her dissertation orals. We both talked about how what mattered was the dissertation orals. What your committee thinks about you should be of greater importance than what some twisted individual does or thinks about you. Bottom Line: If one isn’t dead, then move on to what you want to accomplish in your life.”
HUH?????! WHY in goddess’s name is this woman practicing therapy??? She is all head, and NO heart. To actually AGREE that a woman who had just been raped should just ‘move on’ entirely to her dissertation orals, and FORGET about the rape (which is what she is really saying) is the sickest thing. What the heck do THEY teach in these grad school programs??? To just ‘wipe out’ your emotions??? And the ‘therapist’ who stated this c*ap is also the one on her blog who claims that study after study show that patients should NOT be lead to ‘ruminate’ on their experiences/emotions. Why of course this heartless shrew would cite those studies, people should just ‘think’ themselves’ out of a situation like a rape. I’ll bet my bottom dollar that this ‘therapist’ is VERY uncomfortable with emotions, and therefore parades around ‘studies’ demonstrating that ‘re-enacting’ emotions about an event is BAD BAD BAD BAD. . . I truly pity the patients that go to her, who really Need to emote about some devastating experience. Instead of encouraging them to do this, she would interrupt them and say: ‘Now, just remember that that MAN who just raped and almost killed you is NOT an important person, and let’s do the ‘healthy’ thing and focus instead on goals you have for your future.” What sickness.
GW, I agree Littrell’s comments about rape are irresponsible. And I certainly believe that words hurt, if nothing else by putting our internal tensions in motion.
I thought the main body of her blog more careful less, less extreme and it set my wheels spinning.
My first thought is I’m dubious there’s one way to dissipate the impact of injury, trauma or plain hurt feelings. Maybe that’s the first folly of therapy. Correction, perhaps the first folly is the client making herself accountable for her private thoughts and emotions to some “authority figure ” Then there’s the idea of some sort of corrective prescription for processing hurts.
I find it presumptuous for anyone to define what is “healthy” recovery for anyone else–short of lawbreaking of course. There are many ways of dealing with loss, trauma, injury, with an unfairness. Some retreat, others may set up a scholarship in a family member’s name or make a street intersection safer.
As one who errs by holding hurts and unfairness long past its expiration date, I did find the main body of the blog interesting. I personally found the rumination of therapy fed my worst impulses. I thought Littrell challenging some foundational belief in many therapies–focus on distress, focus on self–an interesting discussion. Her blog seemed an extrapolation from the now largely discredited technique that we release anger merely by screaming or pounding pillows.
I’m not great sticking to Eleanor Roosevelt’s admonition “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” As someone who shut out insults for years, I need at least to confirm and recognize them. However, through time, I’m better at recognizing.
In my own life, there’s a yin and a yang in lessening distress. I do better if I tilt toward the yang. I’m dubious how much a therapist can guide us, particularly when they seem so absolute about How Life Works.
Here’s a study debunking the catharsis theory techniques of rumination and anger release. Of course both remain bedrocks of many therapeutic practices.
Click to access 9293.pdf
And here’s another article about catharsis and anger release in therapy.
Based on my experience, I’d argue that rumination is an equally pointless way of releasing sadness and anger for exactly the same reasons. I think it only trains the client into more anger and sadness.
A new wrinkle in the psych industry: you can check your report card.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/07/what-the-therapist-thinks-about-you/?_php=true&_type=blogs&emc=edit_tnt_20140707&nlid=253625&tntemail0=y&_r=0
This news about introducing scientific scrutiny (and accountability?) to the psychotherapy industry is encouraging:
http://www.nature.com/news/psychological-treatments-a-call-for-mental-health-science-1.15541
I don’t see it as introducing that much scrutiny or accountability and don’t find it horribly encouraging. It may be a tiny step toward progress in understanding what is going on in some psychological problems people have and helping people with them, but there does seem to be an element of the authors’ enthusiastically promoting what they are enthused about, without presenting the cautions and caveats that seem warranted to me.
I had written and was contacted by researchers who were studying harmful therapy . When I told them I thought the basic dynamic of the therapy relationship was foundationally flawed, I didn’t hear from them again.
It has being very useful to read this. I shared many experiences with you. I would like to know more about the experiences of anyone that it been imposed by court coercive treatment.
Consuelo, I don’t recall discussion here so far about court-ordered treatment. The best resource I’ve found is emailing the http://www.therapyabuse.org.
Therapy is dubious enough when one submits to it voluntarily. It’s difficult to fathom its hazards when it’s mandated.
The author has weighed in at my Red Flags in Psychotherapy discussion. ” I wish I knew who you are so we could talk about where I am coming from.”
Apparently, this arbiter on ethical issues has not the slightest issues in exploring MY assertion.
Please see page 2 of this discussion.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R21EO2WEQ56PJX?ref_=pe_623860_70668520
At least this author is willing to dialogue about the issues most psychs are very arrogant and totally dismissive-I do think its slightly odd that she felt she might be able to win you round by trying to get contact and talking to you about your review.
She totally stepped over the mark when she ridiculed those clients who made complaints it was unnecessary to make personal comments about their appearance…theres no way to talk her way out of that one Im afraid.
She’s been caught bang to rights being a mean nasty cow.
The difficulty I have with this author’s response because her interest is 1) Finding out who I am 2) convincing me of HER viewpoint without the slightest interest in mine. She assumes I can’t understand “where she’s coming from” when she states her intention quite clearly both in the book and the promotional copy.
It’s unusual to write psych case studies as fiction-like narrative, but I don’t quarrel with that. She’s trying to illustrate the slippery slope of ethics, and that’s admirable. However I do quarrel with degrading portraits of clients–both for connoting derision and failing to show the nuance of real relationships.
This was my reply to the comments re: the book. Another commenter relayed that a psychologist in Britain had displayed the worst drunken behavior, and acting out sexually while with a group of other psychologists. Yet his peers’ later review of his conduct concluded that his conduct was NOT unethical/misconduct.
“Unbelievable. If this conduct fails to ‘cross the threshold’ into misconduct, then WHAT does?? Would he have to physically harm someone ? stab them? This type of thinking embodies the problems I have had with psychotherapists. NOTHING they ever do is wrong. When it comes to their own, any common sense they may have had (ahem) is thrown out the window. I remember my first therapist, I had to leave her because, among other behaviors, she was tremendously cruel towards me, and acted selfishly. Screaming at me when I called her to tell her I wouldn’t see her again, she yelled “the problem here is that when you come in for your sessions, you demand that you tell me your problems first, instead of letting me tell you MINE first.” Yep – really did happen. When I told her that I paid for these sessions, and she did not, she was silenced. SHE NEVER APOLOGIZED, OR SAW THAT SHE ACTED BADLY.
PATRICIA K. SPIEGEL – you are NO different. Never once have you responded to the remarks here re: how you denigrated the clients you depicted in your book. YOU REFUSE TO LOOK AT YOURSELF. You have a responsibility to either respond: ‘I did not depict the clients in a bad manner’ BECAUSE: (and list the reasons) OR ‘I did depict them wrongly’. Instead you DEFLECT – ‘sorry you feel I insulted you’, etc. SO – if you are truly the good psychotherapist RESPOND DIRECTLY TO OUR REMARKS. No deflection. Oh – and while you are at it: Tell us whether the behavior of the ‘academic’, Malcolm Cross, befits one who is to chair an accreditation committee, and/or one who is a treating psychologist.”
Every counter-argument to my review was an ad hominem diversion, beginning with Gerald Koocher’s “I can understand that you’ve had bad personal experiences with therapists…” through Keith-Spiegel’s cooing about my “hurt feelings.” Koocher failed to disclose he was the author’s frequent collaborator and co-author. “My feelings” they don’t have the slightest relevance in a discussion around an academic book, and the last thing I solicit is a psychologist presuming them or cooing over them.
(Interesting side-excursion to search APA+Koocher+Guantanamo and read about his tumultuous term as APA president.)
No one touched my assertion that the book’s depiction of client’s was derisive.
If Keith-Spiegel wrote about an Ivy League PhD in biochemistry, as opposed to a the gold lamee/black lace pantied faux starlet in her narrative, that would put an entirely different tilt on the therapist-client dynamic she claims to explore in her book.
The other book reviews are ebulliently fawning. It’s amusing that three people seem so invested in mine.
“If Keith-Spiegel wrote about an Ivy League PhD in biochemistry, as opposed to a the gold lamee/black lace pantied faux starlet in her narrative, that would put an entirely different tilt on the therapist-client dynamic she claims to explore in her book”.
Thats brilliant and so true you have to write that on your review.
They need to hear it.
Gerald is a scary person to be a therapist he lacks empathy and sounds rather arrogant.
I honestly dont think it even dawned on the author that she was being hostile…her use of humour disguises her negativity but it shines through in those comedic depictions of hers.
Fiona, I did add a comment, but feel like I’m talking to a wall. Three of them made one-strike attempts to chastise or coax me into upgrading my review, swipe at my anonymity and neutralize my two-star opinion. I’m pessimistic any of them have interest in authentic conversation.
Amazon encourages purchaser comments on all its products and makes it easy to post anonymously. Anyone who glances at the site must see the sales environment. That three psych academicians (assuming Don S. a colleague) are so magisterial about my substantiated, two-star review reiterates how immune some professionals consider themselves from criticism. For self-identified ethics experts, the entitlement is rampant.
Its good that you have your critical review on there.
The points you have made will prick their grandiosity.
I think its funny that the other reviews are so overly positive one reviewer recommends it for book club reading another wants it made into a TV programme??
Diseq,
You said in your August 11 reply to Fiona, “It’s unusual to write psych case studies as fiction-like narrative.” My impression is that it is quite usual to write psych case studies as fiction-like narrative. (I sometimes wonder if therapists can really tell the difference between fact and fiction. I realize that sounds snarky, but I don’t intend it that way — I think it is very sad.)
Mary, I smiled at what you said, and I agree. In fact, I think business-as-usual in psych literature is to treat clients like ventriloquist dummies–the only words from the client are the ones the therapist puts in her mouth.
RED FLAGS IN PSYCHOTHERAPY seems unusual, I think, in that presents its case studies in a “creative non-fiction” style, a cross between an instructive text and the, ahem, rollicking case studies of Yalom’s Loves Executioner, for those who find their fellow human’s distress entertaining.
The Red Flags promo copy states “The stories are absorbing, enlightening, sometimes shocking, and often stranger than fiction. Narrative nonfiction puts human faces and emotions on what would otherwise be cursory statistics.”
My argument is the author’s cartoon characters possess anything BUT human faces and emotions.
Those reviews are so exuberant and adoring one would think the book is the most exciting thing since the Beatles landing in the US. Tell your book clubs! Call the networks!
I’m pessimistic the psych people will understand one word from the dissenters. They’re well-practiced in shutting out criticism.
Ha! What this really means is: I wish I knew who you were so I could personalize the argument, sneak in some ‘ad hominem’ attacks disguised as ‘concern’ about your unresolved ‘issues’ and seek out your Achilles tendon. Then I could really have some fun attacking your sense of self.
How dare you have any at all, after months or years of therapy? The therapists you used should be struck off. They really didn’t do their job.
Why aren’t you an enslaved gibbering wreak who can’t function without three therapy sessions a week and who goes into seizure if the therapist goes on holiday for a week?
Sign up with me. I take all major cards and American Express too but cash is preferred!
Amen J.ROB!!
j.rob–You capture my impressions of those book review responses. Those therapists seem virtually indignant that I don’t worship that book’s brilliance like the rest of them. And the author wants so much to reach out and touch me—to school me to appreciate her properly.
That discussion was a perfect encapsulation of my therapy experience. It’s interesting they can’t see their own demand for control and fear of criticism.
Psychology as a discipline studying human behavior is a legitimate endeavor that may result in valid and helpful insights into the human condition. Psychotherapy, on the other hand, is an opiate and a state of delusion run by people who are little more than drug-lords who imprison their victims and impose their views (and delusions and their own personal issues) onto the masses. The only solution is its eradication by those who have insight into its treacherous nature and are willing to take a stand to offer better solutions than sitting in an office and being brainwashed.
I definitely considered my experience brainwashing, a sucker game using my own vulnerability and hope as the principal weapons. To pull off this scam though, my providers had to believe in their own delusions. It’s all very sad.
I posted that the author has unexamined unacknowledged hostility issues revolving around social class and taste.
Fiona, no problem… borrowing my post . I’m glad you made that point on Amazon about clothing tastes and social class. It seems like the author went out of her way to paint the composite clients as inferior socially.
I’m pessimistic anyone in the psych field will respond with anything aware or thoughtful on that thread. So far their comments have been hit and run. If the author had a convincing explanation why she wrote such degrading portraits, or my review had raised her consciousness, I expect she would have discussed it by now.
GW,
I agree that psychology is *in principle* a legitimate endeavor that may result in good. Unfortunately, it is all too often practiced in ways that have questionable legitimacy — see, for example the Guardian article that Discussant posted a while ago: http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2014/jun/10/physics-envy-do-hard-sciences-hold-the-solution-to-the-replication-crisis-in-psychology
Irvin Yalom is said to have written the book on group therapy. Here’s an example of his wares, a group of people piling on the most withdrawn person in the group, Alice. I’m at a loss how the scapegoating will lead her to more social ease.
I saw something similar in my group. The therapist told us each to “describe” the most painfully withdrawn man, and it did not end well. And the therapist team ridiculed me for NOT denigrating him.
My comment on Red Flags got removed after being reported as abuse.
I posted it again-BTW I cut and paste Sues comment re black pantied halfwit compared to a Ivy league graduate with a PHD in biochemistry.
Sorry I know its blatant plagiarism 🙂
What is this thing she has with big breasts …all her female clients sound like trailer trash with no firing neurons and gigantic breasts-Why?
I honestly think she may be a snob with limited self awareness.
I remember that dogs playing poker print-it used to be on the Rosanne Barr show in the family living room.
Yech. I’ve heard people extolling Yalom. I can’t see how anyone would think this is helping people. Helping them what? The only thing I can see it helping people do is being rude and inconsiderate to other people. This brings to mind my frequent impression in therapy that it is like being plunked down in a culture that is very different from what I’m used to — and one that I would not care to be part of. It seems to emphasize people at their worst. I just don’t get it.
I do wonder, again, that Yalom is so swept away by all that glorious honesty that he overlooks what the group and he are doing to its most vulnerable-seeming member. If the group took his instructions into the workplace and other relationships they might find their honest communications are taken as simply abrasiveness. There’s an entitlement too, in reproaching others regarding their core imperfections. This is a crystalline example of the pseudo-world of therapy.
I am wondering… what would you suggest as an alternative to therapy? Normally, I think, people should have some support network, friends and family. But what if it’s not working, or they don’t have it, which greatly contributes to emotional problems in the first place? I am asking without any sarcasm, as I myself am not a fan of therapy. I was at a very low point and very confused with what was going on in my life and finally resorted to psychologists and therapist, which left me in a worse shape, which I couldn’t have even imagined before. So now I am very sceptical of therapy. I’ve managed to sort out some problems thanks to some philosophy and also life experience. But some remained – and actually what remained is the inability (or rather lack of opportunity) to express myself, my feelings. Which was what I sought in therapy – being able to express myself, talk openly about emotions and sort them out. But we know what the reality of therapy is and how useful it was – I didn’t really feel confident expressing myself as what I said was twisted, interpreted in the wrong way, to the point where I was scared to even open my mouth. But I still think we, humans, have this need to express ourselves and understand ourselves – especially after a trauma, after some bad events that lasted a long time and have taken a very deep toll. How do you deal with those things if you disregard therapy? and if you don’t have good support network, or even one person whom you would really trust to understand you
SLV, there is thinking now that the psych industry has some incorrect ideas about handling trauma, as suggested by research after 9/11 and critical incident stress debriefing that followed. Research showed the march of therapists having their patients dig deep into the pain had a HARMFUL affect on many, rather than helping.
Perhaps parallel, the industry also said “never mind” to many of the anger shenanigans of the 1970s. There are those now-ridiculous videos of bell-bottomed, sideburned patients “getting out their anger” by shouting at therapists and other patients and well as pounding things. Later research proved that was simply habituating the subjects to prolong anger rather than release it like a pressure valve.
The psych industry has disseminated so many myths as Truths, including the idea that emotions are like thermodynamic elements that will dissolve if we open the steam valve. (I’m not the first to question this, but can’t cite sources.)
I know the empty-handed feeling of a therapy breakdown. What do I do without my spiritual guide now? It helped to go out in the world and prove some competence to myself. Instead of a therapy’s version of “knowing myself,” invariably the passive victim of childhood, my “knowing myself” is meeting the person who goes forward and meets challenges.
Some people find solace in converting the experience to a constructive one, making the community safer, helping others. Many people in the creative fields say their work is driven by a need to escape earlier unhappiness. The common element seems moving ahead.
It’s difficult to explore your question without sounding pat or simplistic, and nothing annoys me more than telling me “try this, you’ll feel better.” Those salves seem quite individual an I’ve had to find them for myself, by myself. I understand though the feeling of the Therapy Solution failing. The road to feeling better has been richer, far more adventurous and interesting than the rituals and platitudes of therapy. But I began by questioning many of the Truths that therapy seemed to dictate.
SLV,
I recall reading (unfortunately, I can’t locate the reference) about some research that indicated that therapy worked best for clients who had a good support network. That sure seems like a catch-22 situation for me. (I also didn’t have a good social support network, which is part of why I decided to try therapy to begin with.)
Nowadays there is the possibility of online social support networks — but one needs to be very cautious. For example Psych Central (I believe) is intended to be a support network for people in therapy, but it is very focused on certain types of therapy, and it can be quite the opposite of supportive if you don’t agree with those types of therapy. And some of the participants can be quite catty and critical.
I also hoped therapy would help me in my ability to express myself orally, but it was the opposite — therapists so often asserted so strongly that I thought/felt/meant something quite different from what I thought/felt/meant. And I am very wary of expressing my emotions after therapy — I got such negative responses so often. But I have improved (very gradually, over many years) in my ability to articulate myself orally. Part of this may be due to my almost (understatement?) obsessive/compulsive tendency to try to articulate myself in my head in response to the intrusive thoughts I have of therapists asking me leading or intrusive questions or making (inaccurate) assertions about me.
I have found this website and the “50 signs of questionable therapy” one to be helpful at times in calming me down when the intrusive thoughts of therapy (and my reactions to them) get too strong (as they did a while ago today — that’s why I looked at the site now).
So, for me, dealing with my problems has been quite a patchwork of just trying to make do with what I can find or do myself. But I am also fortunate that I have had meaningful work to do — or at least, a work situation that was flexible enough that I could focus mostly on things that seemed to be worth doing. It would be a lot worse if I were stuck in a job with no “redeeming social value.”
I wish I could be more helpful. I keep hoping that therapy will eventually be “reformed” enough that it can help more people and harm fewer. At least the recognition that “compatibility” between therapist and client is important is a tiny step forward (when I first tried therapy, it was considered a questionable concept. ) But there seems to have been no effort to try to help clients find “compatible” therapists — let alone to weed out the ones who are more likely to harm than to help. A lot is needed in terms of reform!
For what it’s worth, something that sometimes helps me when I get to a low point is to tell myself, “Keep on keeping on”.
I’ve appreciated these blog conversations (thanks so much!) and personal conversation with the http://www.therapyabuse.org responders to discuss harmful therapy.
Psych patient forums largely appear to reinforce faith and obedience to the authority of therapy to the point of castigating and diagnosing anonymous strangers who doubt treatment.
Online support for anything seems a mixed bag. I’ve had the best luck with discussions around solutions and moving forward.
Thank you both for your replies.
Mary S, I’m in the same boat re this: “therapists so often asserted so strongly that I thought/felt/meant something quite different from what I thought/felt/meant. And I am very wary of expressing my emotions after therapy — I got such negative responses so often. But I have improved (very gradually, over many years) in my ability to articulate myself orally. Part of this may be due to my almost (understatement?) obsessive/compulsive tendency to try to articulate myself in my head in response to the intrusive thoughts I have of therapists asking me leading or intrusive questions or making (inaccurate) assertions about me.”
As for online support. I remember before I started consulting therapists, I would search for help on psychology forums, where most of the users were either psychology aficionados or had had some experience with the “specialists”. I remember getting pretty bashed there and my problems were labeled this or that. As naive as I was back then, I began researching what they were talking about and seriously started doubting myself more and more. (I had a problem in my freshly started relationship, according to me the guy was acting strange, I suspected I had got involved in some unhealthy relationship and maybe wasn’t assertive enough. According to probably most of them, I was needy, expected too much and had a low self-esteem. Some posts were pretty rude but back then I didn’t even know of the notion of an internet troll, so I took whatever they said as worth considering. Well, you know, if you don’t, it means you’re resistant and don’t want to face the truth 😉 so I wanted to be open.) Because I was confused, this is the point where I wanted a more “professional” and objective opinion, that’s how I got involved with psychologists of different sorts. The first one was, unfortunately, probably the worst of the pack, and just strengthened the negative suspicions I’d managed to gather about myself. You can imagine by that time I had become a bit biased in my opinions about myself but still tried to present the matter objectively in my mails (it was a package of 3 mails). If I had doubts about her interpretation, I would express them, but most of the time it would be turned against me. Basically, what I learnt there was I was egocentric and expected my then bf to live in my world and meet my needs. Obviously, she failed to see I had been trying really hard to understand him, made attempts at communication and pretty much all my being in that r-ship revolved around trying to understand him so that I could make a decision what next. Since, as she suggested, we lived in different worlds because we were different people, I asked her if it made sense to try to work it out or better just give up. I got the suggestion no one would ever meet my needs as I expected “everyone to admire” me and I needed therapy first. Fair enough. More confusion. It was the beginning of a vicious circle that would last very long. Then again, forums. Any doubts I expressed regarding therapists or their interpretation would meet with aggression. If I had doubts about what the therapist said – I’m resistant. If the therapist proved wrong about something – therapist is only human and I should have used my brain too. There is no way of talking to these people.
Yes, I know “50 signs of questionable therapy”. It was helpful, but then I stopped going there, there was one user who got a bit rude towards me while I was trying to clarify something to another user (who was a therapist). Of course, back then I was in a really messy state of mind, had problems expressing myself stemming from the fact I’d been always interpreted the wrong way by my then bf, and the therapists, so I started getting extra cautious when saying things to the point of absurdity, always worried I might hurt somebody or misrepresent something, so maybe some would see it as if I was nagging or something. Objectively though, I didn’t do anything wrong or didn’t say anything personal. Starting from the times of therapy, I start noticing people generally don’t like it when you get investigative or want to make sure things are clear.
I can only be hopeful my experiences will be helpful in… for example, artistic expression, as disequilibrium1 noticed. I’m afraid in most of the cases we are a bit helpless when it comes to fighting bad therapy. I have posted a negative review of my ex-therapist, I have also written a complaint about that first (online) therapist – but the answer I got from her colleague was what you could expect. An unquestionable benefit from all this is the wisdom that you gain about people and it becomes easier to discern the right kind from the wrong kind, for brevity’s sake. But there is a lot of unresolved trauma, too, and I often feel I was a lot happier pre-therapy being open and naive, but now I just can’t do that. I’ll just “keep on keeping on”, that’s indeed a good reminder. Thanks again for your answers.
SLV,
Thanks for your Sept 3 and Sept 4 posts
Re Sept 3 (11:04 am):
I’m sorry you had such an awful time with the online forums – it sounds as though your experience was even worse than mine there. (My online experience was actually after the last therapist I tried – the first were before the web! It’s been close to 30 years now since I first tried therapy – and close to ten since I last tried.)
Yes, I internalized the “resistance” thing as well – it seems a good excuse for therapists not to take what the client says seriously. (One book I had read early on, while struggling with my third therapist, had a “checklist” to help decide between “resistance” and “incompatibility.” I came out with equal checks on each list, but wasn’t good enough to give myself the benefit of the doubt and decide the problems with therapists were incompatibility. One improvement in the profession is at least that more are considering “incompatibility” as a real possibility – although the profession as a whole does little if anything to help clients find “compatible” therapists – or even to help train therapists to be better for more clients. And some even say it is the client’s responsibility to find a compatible therapist.
I also recognize becoming “extra cautious when saying things to the point of absurdity, always worried I might hurt somebody or misrepresent something, so maybe some would see it as if I was nagging or something” in response to therapy.
Re Sept 3 (4:08 pm):
“I am pretty angry with myself” and “So at some point you’re even scared to open your mouth and voice your concern/doubt/disagreement for fear of being “punished” again.” Oh, yes, I can relate to these! (Actually, I tended to be angry with myself before therapy, but it got worse in response to therapy.) Therapy so often seemed like reprimands or punishment! I became really scared of speaking up.
“I feel quite cheated by this whole psychology/therapy thing.” Yes, you were cheated – investing lots of time and money, and getting worse than no help at all. (I guess I was cheated, too – but I’m not sure I’ve been able to see it this way until reading what you wrote. Thanks)
Re Sept 4:
Again, a lot of things you say are similar to my experience:
“it’s up to you whether you agree with them or not, you can take something home with you or reject it as invalid. But …” – One thing I hoped to get out of therapy was the ability to reject something as invalid, especially when it was said by a person I found intimidating and/or seemed to be an “expert”.
“I’m afraid for many people [staying away or walking away from therapy] is one of those things you learn the hard way” – Yes, I had to learn it the hard way. One thing that helped me quit one therapist was that, in her waiting room before what turned out to be my last session with her, the piped in music was an extremely beautiful piece. I hoped that she wouldn’t come get me until it was over. But she came out when it was still playing – she noticed it, and said, “Well, for once, they’re playing something decent on that station!” I found that very negative – and a couple of days later was able to see it as evidence that perhaps the negative things she had been saying in sessions about me were coming from her own negativity, and perhaps were not really about me so much as about her. But I didn’t have any such strong “evidence” with later therapists I tried – I even stuck much too long with one who laughed at me at some pretty egregious times.
“… therapists, psychologists were my last resort, I thought.” Yes, for me, too: I had tried self-help books and talking with one or two friends I thought I could trust but were not at all helpful (understandably, because they were very assertive people).
“I had poor social skills at that time, …, and one of the indirect reasons I sought [therapists] in the first place. I was virtually non-assertive, which I had heard from people before many times, and I expected therapists as experts on human psyche they claim to be to take it into account,” Yes, I was lacking in social skills – especially assertiveness, and also being able to think on my feet and answer questions on the spot (even to say, “I’ll need to think about that”). I expected that therapists would be able to help me learn these social skills, but they didn’t offer any help, and these skills were much more important in therapy than in ordinary life. Catch 22.
I don’t like being so cynical, but it does so often seem that many therapists use their profession to be “a big fish in a little pond.” But their “tunnel vision” and denial also contribute to the problem.
SLV, sorry you’ve gone through the mill in so many directions.
One quality I noticed in therapy, in therapists’ advice forums and the online peer groups you describe, is so many purport a sort of omniscience and clairvoyance. There’s no shortage of those who’ll gladly pretend not only to read our minds, but know all about our present world, and how we’re acting out a childhood traumas to boot. I won’t pretend to know much, but I will strongly suggest anyone pretending to have that sweep of knowledge–doesn’t. And even if I could spend hours describing a situation, another person will can never understand the complete sweep of it.
I believe so many things the psych industry and its fans pinpoint as some terrible defect –magically to be cleansed through therapy–is a universal human trait. Everyone I know has some neediness, hates to be abandoned (we’re social animals) has self-doubts and sees the world through his or her own eyes. Is their a Great Chieftain who draws the line on the correct amount of narcissism? People on one side are too narcissistic and the other side are too self-sacrificing. I’m unclear what self-esteem even is.Does the barreling, blustering guy in the room have high or low self-esteem? The psych industry can take any move we make, anything we say yet another flawed occasion for –more therapy.
I used to seek advice for everything. I seek much less now. I think advice from anyone, particularly on the general living of life, deciding about relationships, large transitions etc. has its limits. Someone can tell us what you describe is rude. Or I would be frustrated/angry/upset undergoing what you describe. But only I know the complete picture. Even when someone was there, they might not experience things the way I do.
Like you, I keep on keeping on. I take so much more with a grain of salt now.
Well, yes, it’s true another person can never fully understand our situation. Yet it would really help if what you describe or say was considered with care and respect and not from a position of superiority. (I’m talking about those forum people and therapists.) You know, I pretty much gave a suggestion to the first therapist I wrote to that I had been involved in a pretty bad friendship, being non-assertive, also tried to explain possible reasons for it going back to my childhood situation. And that I was afraid it was happening again with my then bf but I didn’t have tools to get out of the situation or I kept justifying his behaviours. Well, this wasn’t taken seriously, this was kind of turned around implying that I was the egoistic/egocentric party in the relationship.
The thing is I am pretty angry with myself. Before all this happened, before I ever got involved with that guy, I was very keen on psychology. I used to read a lot of articles, buy psychological magazines, even thought of studying it and becoming a therapist. I read also a lot about human relationships and from all this psycho-babble I had this idea in my head that I should always look at myself first in the relationship, consider what I could change to make it better and not blame the other party, also always try to communicate things in the (ridiculous) “I-manner”, never point to the other party but rather speak about your needs/feelings. Having all that rubbish in mind and having come across a pretty manipulative type, I was always open to what he said (as his excuses), changing my behaviour, adjusting, trying to figure things out, making sure he got his personal space, making sure I expressed myself properly and god knows what else. Now, it didn’t work, so I turn to psychology people and – even though I had been following all their bullsh*t from the beginning – I still get bashed for doing something wrong, or actually for doing the opposite. I did everything “by the book”, you can say, and then still they tell you there was something wrong. I was very focused on my partner’s needs, and I would be told by the online lady that love is about letting go of egoism, implying I was egoistic, while in reality I gave too much and didn’t stand up for myself enough. (Btw, I told her a few months into the relationship I had developed panic attacks and I thought my body was telling me this r-ship was wrong for me, yet her interpretation was my bf was ok and the anxiety is the result of my uncertain job situation – which had been uncertain long before I got into the relationship.) Well, if you’re stupid (like I was) you immediately think – after all you’ve told them about yourself and them still being certain you’re deeply troubled and delusional – there must be some way, some truth you haven’t attained yet, like you’re making a mistake somewhere, even though you’re really trying to follow the rules. Like there is some psychological truth these people know but you have yet to see the light.
And yes, it’s amazing how everything can be interpreted as another signal of something wrong with you. And held against you. It is “my fault” I had fallen for psychology in the first place, considered what forum people told me as possibly valid, then considered what the psychologist told me. If I have doubts whether I’m in a toxic relationship and treated fairly, this is taken as a sign of egocentricity. But later people (even the same psychologists) wonder why I stayed in that relationship if it looked like he didn’t care… oh my, didn’t I try to express my doubts in the first place and they were squashed? and I’m made to feel like it’s my fault for not standing up for myself and my needs. It’s like constantly fluctuating between two extremes. So at some point you’re even scared to open your mouth and voice your concern/doubt/disagreement for fear of being “punished” again.
I feel quite cheated by this whole psychology/therapy thing. Yes, I guess it makes me narcissistic for failing to get even a tiny bit of recognition from the specialists for trying and putting their suggestions into practice. And believe me, I did it for over a year with enthusiasm before I started feeling angry with them. I guess, as many people, I assumed they knew better.
Sorry for the long post. Years have passed, I’m still kind of not over this. I’m glad there is a place (here) where I can find some understanding. Thanks.
I was really needy and desperate for understanding the creep who tried to exploit and humiliate me thought I was an easy target.
I put up with a lot there were times in the therapy he deliberately insulted me in between the love bombing-he was getting a cheap kick out of hurting me with barbs and me being confused.
Part of me knew ‘straight away’ what he was doing but I didnt leave because then the hope (fantasy) of getting what I needed/wanted would be over.
I do take responsibility for my part in it…I stayed around for the love bombing even though (part of me) I knew it was phony and fake.
Thats why I feel so angry about it all because I was vain and weak.
Fiona, sorry to hear about your “therapy”. I think it’s pretty normal to feel weak, that’s why we seek help in the first place. I think in a vulnerable state you don’t act like your normal self, especially when faced with an “authority”.
Some of my friends say psychologists can have valuable insights and it’s up to you whether you agree with them or not, you can take something home with you or reject it as invalid. But I think they forget that hardly anyone goes to a psychologist when they’re in the frame of mind to think clearly and discuss things with them, and usually we don’t go there for a theoretical debate but with a problem. And most of the time a psychologist will exert an air of omniscience – thus, if you believe they’re experts on people’s feelings (especially their subconscious motivations – which gives them room to say just about anything), you might easily fall into that trap. It’s not as if the therapist treats your insights as on a par with his but presents an air of superiority – after all they’re the experts, we’re the clients/patients.
Taking responsibility for staying or walking away from therapy is important because it’s empowering, but I’m afraid for many people it’s one of those things you learn the hard way. I mean first you need to experience something bad and find out that what the therapy promised it really hasn’t delivered, so you stop trusting in authority. In my case, my therapists really didn’t give me anything good (or sweet or positive) that would keep me coming back apart from an impression they hold the key to solving my predicament. Finally! It was just this hope of ending the bad situation I was in and I didn’t know how to handle despite trying alI knew; therapists, psychologists were my last resort, I thought. That was the only reason I stayed so long and later kept looking, there was really hardly anything valuable or pleasant that would keep me coming back. I just wanted to deal with a tough situation in my life – first serious relationship, which I didn’t want to lose if it was right or I wanted to get rid of if it wasn’t. I needed someone to help me sort it out in light of the fact my ex was manipulative (which I could see only a lot later; and a lot later he was also labelled Adult Child of an Alcoholic and went to therapy himself, funnily enough, for a long time no therapist even tried to consider there was something seriously wrong about his behaviour, and by their standards ACoA is a big deal). I had poor social skills at that time, the reason I couldn’t see through the situation, and the reason why I stuck with therapists so long, and one of the indirect reasons I sought them in the first place. I was virtually non-assertive, which I had heard from people before many times, and I expected therapists as experts on human psyche they claim to be to take it into account, especially if I myself hinted at it. If we were all developed and adults just because our ID says we’re grown-ups, there wouldn’t be need for therapists in the first place.
I can now take responsibility for what I tolerate from others and would know when to walk away from a therapist, but it’s only after the negative experiences, because I no longer trust them as authorities. In essence, the therapist-client relationship is unequal, one has more power over the other and many times (ab)uses their position. It’s difficult to talk about responsibility in a relationship designed as unequal. Maybe if therapists were competent, I wouldn’t mind this design, but since many of them aren’t, I tend to think this system altogether is pretty dangerous.
I feel so brainwashed by the Therapy Industrial Complex and it seems they’ve brained-washed the whole society. First they’ve installed a world-view that pathologizes us, to essentially sell us more therapy. We either fail to “defend our boundaries” or we’re too defended. We’re either not assertive enough or we’re narcissistic. Hands in the air, in Therapy-land we’re always defectives.
The more I read the more I believe that many therapists are trained into this skewed value system and more significantly–ARROGANCE. Their arrogant skirmish around that arrogant “ethics” book on Amazon is a clear example. The minute the therapist sets himself up as an authority on someone else’s life, that’s both arrogant and unrealistic. Someone can be an authority on our allergies and thyroid because the physical evidence is immediate. He can’t be an authority on something he can’t observe in objectively. And the conversational exchange in the consulting room is so synthetic and unworldly, its not even a sound laboratory for their observation.
There’s no heavenly yardstick if we’re assertive enough or anything enough. We’re accountable to ourselves and the obligations we’ve chosen. I had a negotiation yesterday in which I “gave” a lot. Had a therapist audience reviewed the video tape I would have been soundly chided and diagnosed. I had my reasons. We make personal choices,and anyone else merely is second guessing us. Once we’re adults, there’s no Authority Figure for our lives anymore.
Therapists went to school and got a degree. That doesn’t make them insightful or smarter than us. Anything to the contrary is showmanship.
With reference to the Red Flags book I skim read it today and my therapist was similar to Megans therapist the only difference being he was a sadist he wasnt after sex the humiliation of the woman was what he got off on.
I find the book very odd in places especially the Vampire chapter also she puts quite a lot of sex references into the writing.
I have no idea what percentage of psychotherapy clients are slutty temptresses, but I’m sure it’s nowhere close to the large female population shown in the Red Flags book. Kenneth Pope’s review says the book covers “real people facing real problems in the messiness of real life.” Anyone who thinks these caricatures anywhere near real worries me.
When I attended a TELL meeting, the women, mostly survivors of sexual abuse or near-abuse, were dignified, well-spoken women, in NO MANNER resembling trashy whores that Keith-Spiegel discusses. Likewise I find the essays on TELL far more insightful than the book.
Is the culture of psychotherapy so condescending and derisive that a teacher of ethics can depict clients so hatefully without a passing thought? It’s a disturbing question. This Red Flags book pretends to teach one lesson but imparts an opposite one.
You have summed it up very well.
Ive done a review on Amazon UK and will add some of that sentiment to my review.It has no reviews on the UK Amazon.
Fiona, I think you summed the Red Flags book up very well and made an apt point about the book’s social snobbery. She certainly went out of her way to depict the clients as far beneath anyone reading the book.
If Pope, another guy considered to have “written the book” on psych ethics considers these characters real people, we’re really in trouble.
I originally found the book hoping it would add to the scarce literature around those harmed in therapy. Instead I found a segment reiterating of JE Groves’ “hateful patients,” 1978 article originally written for doctors. I found that labeling particularly condescending in the context of psycho therapeutic treatment, specifically because the therapy dynamic often is designed to induce the patient into an infantile and helpless state. Therapy then can create or magnify traits in patients that providers then label as hateful. The labels,again, are polarizing and supercilious rather than understanding. When I failed to find my therapist brilliant, I also was called “difficult” despite being the among the most mild-mannered, compliant people I know.
Hi
Just got a neg ‘vote down’ on my red flags review.
Fiona, I tried to counter that, but Amazon wouldn’t let me vote in the UK. I’ll try again. The review is perfectly well-articulated and lucid. I’m sure this is yet another example of someone in the psych industry who is terrified of criticism. That’s ironic for specialists who send their days enticing everyone else to self-flagellate themselves over their worst defects.
The case of Malcolm Cross drunken psychologist. Ive done a review (Amazon UK) on a book called ‘Regulation In Action’ by Janet Haney (therapist)-her book is a very angry rant about how trivial his behaviour was and how it should NEVER have been put before a disciplinary board because he was just being a little bit silly…its a truly shocking read.
I happened upon three articles today that I’d nominate for the duh-forehead-hit trophy:
“But all psychotherapies also contain non-specific therapeutic ingredients that may – when present in some circumstances, or absent in others – benefit or harm the patient. ”
https://theconversation.com/talking-therapies-can-harm-too-heres-what-to-look-out-for-27433
“There are those whom we believe are great therapists,” Lichtenberg said. “They’ve written books and are well-recognized by their peers and patients. There are also those that are very highly competent and others still who are good, but their patients don’t tend to get better.”
http://news.ku.edu/2014/02/17/professor-authors-study-examining-idea-psychotherapy-field-without-expertise#sthash.osmv7ZhX.dpuf
And finally, ” A walk in the park may have psychological benefits for people suffering from depression. ”
http://www.baycrest.org/news/a-walk-in-the-park-gives-mental-boost-to-people-with-depression/
Ive noticed on those psych forums that the people are dependent and inadequate socially its so sad there tend to be a lot of focus on ‘does my therapist really care about me’ and ‘I love my therapist.
I cringe to read it because Im pretty sure these therapists dont love them.
Its hero worship and dependency mixed together.
Fiona, I’m frightened by what I read on those forums because they seem so dependent and worshipful, and I speculate their therapists might well reinforce that. Many seem so obsessed with my attachment issue this, my abandonment issue that, that they seem to drift further from the functioning world. Much misery seems from their own minds and reliving their pain. What their therapists says seems its own enormous source of drama. They’ve reported being physically ill before or after sessions, yet their moral obligation keeps them returning. Many report themselves how miserable they are. Many relate to each other as proxy therapists, with all the diagnoses, clairvoyance and supremacy that entails…i.e. “you’re acting out of transference.”
I’ve no way of knowing how representative they are of the larger population in therapy. However, I wish inquisitive therapists would read and study those boards to understand how their most devout population experiences them.
Before I get a community devotee even more irate, I’ll add my self-disclosure. When I was deeply involved in therapy I would have been right there with them.
If the client stopped paying they would soon find out how much their therapist loved them -they are no different to prostitutes.
Just to let you know
I bought that Red Flag book and I just left a review on Amazon USA
Fiona, I thought that was a completely fair review.
I concur she’s a talented story-teller and stated her goal was to use story-technique in teaching and discussion. I’m glad for professionals to discuss ethics and the issue of harmful therapy.
But as we agreed, I thought her treatment of the cases, most outrageously the women, conveyed a disrespectful-to-contemptuous message. I also thought in making all the client/patients cartoons rather than people, she sidestepped exploring the subtle progression of therapy becoming destructive.
I will add more to the review when I actually get the book.
I ordered it but I havent received it yet…the book is very seductive the bits Ive read online affected me on a NLP type (childlike) subliminal level…I found myself starting to buy into the depictions and beginning to laugh along with it.
This sort of stuff seems so benign but its very dangerous
BTW
Don S who commented on your review I think thats her husband.
There’s widely-taught sales technique is called Sandler’s Pain Funnel, taught to professional sales people to sell products and services from life insurance to copy machines. I’m stuck by how this manipulation is employed –conscientiously or not–to sell psychotherapy.
Click to access painfunnel.pdf
Cringe. That sounds exactly like the kind of manipulation employed by the therapy industry.
The Pain Funnel does sound a lot like the things therapists do — things that, in fact, they seem to recommend doing (based on the reading I’ve done).
Yesterday morning, coming out of the half-awake state in which I so often “relive” therapy (with variations), the word “predator” came to mind to describe therapists. This post brought that to mind again. Sad that people who are supposed to “help” seem like salesmen or predators. Something’s rotten in Denmark.
Thank you for the reference to ‘the pain funnel’. Actually, my experiences with therapists were so bad that if they had used this technique, it would have been a huge step up for most of them! Instead of asking me about myself, they were usually ‘telling’ me about myself, or about themselves, or saying nothing, and/or yelling at me, etc. Why they think these ‘methods’ of theirs would ‘help’ is beyond me.
Once again, can anyone please tell me what they learn in their ‘therapist’ courses? The programs must be a sham.
At least an office equipment salesman knows he uses a strategy and gives us something. A psych salesman peddles the pain funnel itself.
Another eye opener is searching +psychotherapy +practice marketing or +practice building. It’s big business training them in the fine art of hucksterism, and they even can get continuing ed credits for these courses.
This is a response to SLV:
SLV, your questions about how to process your traumatic experiences and any emotional pain in the absence of friends and other types of support networks and outside of the mental health system are very valid questions – the ones I have struggled with for a long time. If you are interested, I can share how I’ve resolved it for myself, but I’d rather do it privately. You can contact me about it at moimir@gmail.com if you want to. All the best.
WM
My therapy took place and ended 10 years ago now and i am still conflicted about it to be honest. i was at a very low ebb for a number of reasons that are too parochial to go into n a public forum. I had had some CBT in the past on the British NHS that had worked fairly well, but it was thought at this point that psychotherapy (paid for privately) might be more appropriate.
After about 8 months i had to tell the psychotherapist that i was not attending anymore and was quitting. My motivation and attendance had been declining for some time (which she hadnt picked up on) and my decision produced the furious anger and dire predictions about my future that other respondents have reported here from their erstwhile psychotherapists in similar circumstances. I was the first dropout she had ever had apparently as she only worked with ‘serious people !’ (or maybe that should be people she could more easily manipulate)
Myself at the time , i just felt an overwhelming sense of relief to be leaving and to be ‘out of it’, and to have got myself back as an independent adult capable of making reasoned life choices . Maybe men are less predisposed to successful psychotherapy anyway as they do tend to be less revealing over their feelings and more emotionally independent even or dare i say it even emotionally stunted. Or maybe I subconsiously saw through the BS.
I also agree with other respondents about the ridiculousness of regressing to submission and infantilism in therapy sessions. I was a 42 year old professional man going through a difficult patch for Gods sake, not a helpless child. I wanted someone to build me up and reassure me, not to knock me down and deconstruct me (or try to reconstruct me in their own image and according to their own prejudices). I had no intention of doing this (submission/infantilism) and hence clammed up in sessions. The psychotherapist still maintained her air of mysterious omnipotence and ‘with-holding the magic secret’ throughout despite my asking how long the process would take and not getting an answer etc. All I got told was ‘this is long – term work’ .
Psychotherapy fees were subject to regular reviews – always in one direction of course – I suppose as she thought i was gradually becoming increasingly dependent on her . (I wonder which of her other clients I subsidised).
Taken together with the reviews, correspondence and debate over the ‘Red Flags’ book it does seem to show how lacking in really honest self-reflection some of these people are . Blame the difficult client is an easy way out and I wonder what she thinks/says about me now as i still see her around town occasionally . It seems the UK practitioners are even less regulated than others.
I understand that my therapist was told by her supervisor to ‘just get rid of me’ when all this came out . (hey the penny did finally drop – that was what wanted anyway ! ). She also (on supervisory advice) dropped the threat of pursuing me for some fees for missed sessions – nothing ever happened and not that I intended paying anyway.
Sorry if this has been a bit of a rant !
Igy: Your rant is 100% justified! What a liar and power-hungry ‘therapist’ you had. I’ll bet my bottom dollar that you were NOT the first client who ‘left her’. That is the biggest B.s. – and immediately shows how ‘perfect’ (narcissistic) she thinks she is. She either has convinced herself of that, for example: clients HAVE left her, but they either lie to her re: why they are leaving, or she tells herself they are not ‘really’ leaving because of anything the ‘perfect’ therapist could possibly have done.
As for her claiming ” she only worked with ‘serious people”, as you said, those easy to manipulate, OR she HAS to have those that will obey her commands, worship her, or whatever the heck she ‘NEEDS’ psychologically.
And wasn’t she SO sweet for not going after you for fees ‘you owed’ – once again, her Power & Control Needs are showing. Maybe what she really means, is that you won’t go after her for $ you paid for wasting YOUR time. That if she did pursue you for ‘fees’ that you would expose her for who she really was. Her fear is as deep as the ocean.
ALSO: I want to tell everyone this: IF YOU, OR ANYONE, WANT TO END IT WITH A THERAPIST – DO NOT DO IT IN PERSON.
You do NOT have to. There is NO law, regulation, rule or moral/ethic that you have to do this – no matter WHAT the therapist says.
I ended it with my first therapist over the tel. As I knew she would, she screamed at me, including saying: “WHY DON’T YOU COME IN HERE -IN PERSON- AND DEAL WITH ME???” Meaning: Why don’t you come in person so I can exert my control issues (yet once again) over you AND scream and intimidate you in person? I told her calmly that I could end it any way I choose to. Of course, that made her scream even more. How could I, the mere dumb dumb client, CHOOSE anything, including how to end therapy?!!!
I did it because I needed to feel safe. And that is fine. More than fine – really – necessary. I did the same thing around the same time- broke off with a guy who was incredibly angry & screamed and yelled all the time – I did it also over the tel. Because I also felt afraid to do it in person.
Really, not too much difference between the two persons. Both HAD to have complete Power and Control over others. I needed those who were kind, empathic towards me, and were NOT screamers. Abusive therapists are not much different that Abusive Partners. Except you are always paying $ to the therapists – to scream at you.
Iggy, I join you in ranting. I felt so scammed once I digested what happened.The idea that therapy regressed me as a dependent child to cleanse unwanted traits was utter fable. Activating childishness achieves autonomy? I wonder how that works.
Like you describe, my therapist behaved like a wounded bull when I (tactfully) told him I found treatment useless, and was target of all manner of insult and scold.
The skirmish continues in the Red Flags in Psychotherapy’s review section. Once again, Don S. comes to the book’s defense.I think debate over the book is a concise case study of therapist defensiveness, but no one on their side seems to understand this. The “experts” are unable to take criticism.
Hi posted this on Amazon USA to Don S – ive been neg voted down by another person
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There was a social snobbery present in the descriptions of the complainants .The author went out of her way to depict the clients as far beneath anyone reading the book.
With regard to power relations affecting discourse – the author did not write about the professional therapists in such an overdramatizing ultra demeaning manner…her descriptions were more measured.
Also if the author had written about an Ivy League PhD in biochemistry patient as opposed to that gold lamee/black lace pantied faux starlet in her narrative, that would put an entirely different tilt on the therapist-client dynamic wouldn’t it?
If she had written about a complainant with the same status or income that would have diminished the dominant elites pleasurable feeling of solidarity – its actually a form of tribalism that just serves to reinforce your bonds with each other.
This book ‘Red Flags in Psychotherapy’ has received reviews and peer endorsement that is extremely positive.
At points, some of it even sounded like a few of the people praising it were in the grips of euphoria…
The main reason this occurred was-the reader was getting a sadistic power buzz from negating a subordinate group. A fantasy social world had been constructed by Patricia in which the subordinate slut/idiot/delusional woman was not able to answer back with her authentic self. The powerful were asserting their mastery over the peasants.
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“Accord dignity. Mental health professionals should view those with whom we work as worthy of respect. We strive to understand cultural and other ways that people differ from ourselves and to eliminate biases that might impact on the quality of our work”.
I would like to call upon Koocher Spiegel to take their their own rhetoric seriously because they have made public statements that (in the light of this book) now appear rather hypocritical.
You may try to paint a benign face on it Don S but its morally offensive.
There is a blatant subtext to these writings that is pure dominance display
Fiona, I tried to write this reply, but was unable to since I haven’t purchased the book:
Thank you for your articulate insights on the minds (or expressed attitudes) of those drawn to work in the therapy industry. Well worth considering for anyone who has ever contemplated entering this form of unbalanced relationship.
Igy, you are not alone. I wish we could conduct a study to ascertain what percentage of client-initiated terminations result in the type of anger and dire predictions you report. Anecdotally, it seems extremely common. One hypothesis is that therapists are drawn to the profession as a result of their difficulty with mutual relationships. They desire intimacy, but cannot handle the risks of mutual vulnerability in a mutual give-and-take relationship. Thus they turn to an avenue where they feel they can get close to people, but remain in control, safe from exposure and rejection. When it doesn’t go according to the narrow script they’re comfortable with, they flip out, become angry and defensive, and use any verbal weapons they can in attempt to regain their control.
The entire relationship is stagecraft with the therapist in the role of the rescuer and wise shaman. If the client rejects the beseeching role, the (sometimes) empathetic “rescuer” drops his mask , using every weapon in his command to get the renegade back in line.
also, don’t forget that many of these therapists, being with their clients is the ONLY way they get any intimacy. So, when a client says they are stopping therapy, of course the therapist gets angry – its like a partner broke up with them, and the partner was the only person the therapist could get close to. I’m not at all saying the therapist is right; only in their screwed-up minds this is how they operate. They can only get intimacy in this way, where they feel they are superior to the client.
Yes that’s was my experience…
Ive looked into it and realized my therapist was so psychologically unhealthy and damaged he was not in touch with any feeling other than contempt.
He got kicks out of toying with and rejecting female clients & he got cheap thrills from humiliating them.
When I spoilt his tried and tested game he literally fell apart…he wasn’t able to work or function- he was brought to his knees..
Very strange reaction indeed….
The abandonment by me was an unbearable experience for him? yet there was no genuine emotional bond between us because he treated me like dirt and had no real affection for me but my departure and complaint against him induced a nervous breakdown.
He was married to a female psychologist (working for the the same NHS Trust)
I dread to think how weird and empty their relationship must be.
Fiona: A nervous breakdown?! He sounds like a classic Narcissist – He demeans others because HE MUST always be superior to everyone else. He also needs an audience, in this case his patients. He HAS to have their adoring responses to his ‘brilliance’. (He may even have narcissistic personality disorder).
But, beneath their heavy armor, lies a person with little self-esteem. That is why they need those constant heavy doses of assurances/worship re: their superiority. In the case of your ex-therapist, because of his extreme showing of contempt towards women, I’ll bet that just beneath the surface was a tremendous amount of sadness and pain; which, of course, he never dealt with.
He never had to – because he was so superior to having to do something so ‘beneath’ him.
Your ‘abandoning’ him, and reporting him to his OWN professional disciplinary board frightened him beyond belief – his insecurities – which he had taken every ounce of energy to hide – were going to be shown to the world! He couldn’t see this as simply one former patient bringing one charge against him – he saw it as as people he admired seeing him butt-naked for what he really was!
Also, he was scared that if they took his license away, so that he could not practice therapy, then HOW could he get his ‘necessary’ audience to show how superior he was?? His whole being would collapse – and sounds like it did, with that breakdown.
I have been reading a lot re: narcissists lately, because I am going through a divorce and my soon-to-be-ex is a narcissist. They just take and take, and don’t give you much. Except for the beginning of a relationship, when they consciously or unconsciously treat you like gold in order to manipulate you into a relationship with them.
Sounds like the breakdown may have done him some ‘good’, who knows?
When I announced I wanted to quit, my man-woman therapist team both behaved like rageful, entitled juveniles refusing to believe someone they need would leave them. There was nothing erotic going on, but they certainly had a core emotional investment in my “abandoning” them.
It’s interesting that there’s quite a collection of anecdotal accounts, yet the profession all but ignore this.
The paternalistic articles therapists write (down) to consumers about quitting are their own self-parody. First there’s their circular logic: “It’s a..solid rule of thumb that whenever the urge strikes to cancel therapy and not go back, that’s the time you could use therapy the most.” They rationalize leaving them as of course is all projection, resistance, transference, denial and fear of looking ourselves.
http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/leaving-therapy/
The condescending “So You want to Quit Therapy. Do You Want to Talk About It”” was recently removed, but temporarily available in cache. I have it on pdf, if you’d like it via my “about” page
“Most people have a fear of intimacy to some degree or another. It is a fear of trusting another person, a fear of letting go, of accepting another person as they are, a fear of getting too involved with or too dependent on another person. Often, connected with this fear are feelings of anger…Hence, by quitting therapy without including the therapist in the decision-making process, people are depriving themselves of what could well be the biggest turning point in therapy.”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZFrX6_rf6zIJ:www.goodtherapy.org/blog/so-you-want-to-quit-therapy-do-you-want-to-talk-about-it+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Yes his world did crumble and he totally over reacted -I know he fell apart because he wrote about it in a text book.
He was so stressed out by the complaint that he couldn’t work and he also bemoaned the fact that his co workers were neutral and refused to be his cheerleaders and boost him back up with support and reassurances that he was OK.
The whole theme of his writings was that he made no errors he was flawless he did nothing wrong the complainant (me) was delusional and dangerous he implied that he should have been alerted to the fact that I was crazy….Yes he was definitely a NPD…the textbook chapter was so blatant in its denial and displacing of blame…it should have provoked suspicion in his employers.
Apparently he was shunned by his direct co workers who probably got the vibe he was a con artist. It does make me wonder why his wife married him he must be dreadful to live with he is so arrogant and mean if he really cared anything about her he wouldn’t have been hitting on me telling me I was beautiful and fascinating and sexualizing the situation for titillation.
Theres no way Im the only woman he’s done this with… at times it seemed like he was working a formulaic seduction script on me. He probably got away with it so many times he felt invincible.
yeah to resharpen and to disequilibrium – you put it well . i needed to end psychotherapy to FEEL SAFE. I just wish theses people would realise that when i say “no it (psychotherapy) is finishing” that that is exactly what i meant , and it is NOT an attempt to play any clever games with them. i have got to say to I had never really analysed HER until your piece resharpen, and that provides food for thought for me. Discusant (sp?) I could see that she was on the verge of saying something really nasty and hurtful in the session when I said I was going, and was having a lot of trouble restraining herself.
It is a fundamentally dishonest unbalanced relationship in any event as disequilibrium says – in this context the therpaist repeatedly accused me of destroying ‘our deep interpersonal relationship’, whilst I had to repeatedly remind her it was a FINANCIALLY-based relationship (see my comments about fees for missed sessions.
I can’t not say that i did learn some things about myself from the sessions, but overall it had reached a natural end.
The main things I learned from therapy were their tactics and distorted logic to maintain dominance. The woman therapist gave her loudest scream when I reminded her it wasn’t a relationship; it was a financial arrangement. She had scolded, “you’re running away, and that’s JUST what you do in relationships.” Of course, However, I could be faulted as well by remaining too long in a harmful situation. We can’t win.
also (apols for the poor english by the way !) I am a teacher of some very difficult and trying young people. If I ever as a professional referred to them in the condescending and frankly insulting mocking terms it appears that clients have been in the Red Flags book in public I would be immediately in front of disciplinary boards/panels, suitability to teach questioned etc. How come psychotherapists arent subject to any kind of similar regime ?
Igy, your English is so good, I didn’t realize it wasn’t your first language.
Examples of psychotherapy arrogance are so frequent, I conclude their training and their culture must be steeped in it. The Amazon.com discussion around Red Flags in Psychotherapy strikes me as both horrifying and utterly predictable, paralleling he dynamic I’ve had with therapists. My therapist referred to me, in answer to my complaint, as a “difficult case,” simply because I wanted to leave therapy. I’m a mild-mannered, Southern-polite soul in person, but he seemed to view me as a lion to tame.
I tried to explain in my review that therapist can be at least partially responsible for the difficulties they create in clients. People believe they’re expected express their pain and their irrationality there.
I’m happy to read about your teaching culture. I believe a “difficult” person is a soul in pain who might respond if he can be reached.
ahem – it IS my first language. editing responses on my phone can lead to typos though . will reply in more depth later .
“It IS my first language” That explains it 🙂 I’m habitually guilty of omitting words (due to edits) verb agreement errors, your/you’re/it’s/its fatalities, and that’s without autocorrect to make me look more insane.
Here is a therapist replying to people who didn’t like her book(s) on Amazon USA ,she is a psychoanalyst called Joan Lachkar
Posted on Dec 17, 2010 10:04:27 PM PST
Joan Lachkar says:
The reader doesn’t have a clue what this book is about nor did he understand it. It is NOT about rewriting the DSM-IV, rather the categories are designed for communication and treatment purpuses. The DSM-IV is designed to describe the symptoms and defenses of Borderline personalities-a totally different focus. Maybe the reader should reread the book or have someone explain it to him.
5 of 14 people think this post adds to the discussion. Do you? Yes No
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 6, 2011 1:36:26 PM PST
maven says:
What an arrogant …
3 of 7 people think this post adds to the discussion. Do you? Yes No
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Posted on Apr 15, 2011 8:24:24 AM PDT
Joan Lachkar says:
[Customers don’t think this post adds to the discussion.Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]
[Customers don’t think this post adds to the discussion.
Dear Benjamin,
This book was not intended for you but mainly for the more sophisticated lay person or mental health professional. Sorry it was above your head. Maybe self help is the way to go.
Joan Lachkar, Author
1 of 7 people think this post adds to the discussion. Do you? Yes No
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In reply on Apr 15, 2011 9:07:39 AM PDT
Amazon is hasbarat says:
Wow, Joan Lachkar, you are one arrogant individual. I pity anyone who has you as a psychologist. People like you do far more damage than good. Maybe you shouldn’t be giving advice to anyone, if that is the best you can come up with.
5 of 6 people think this post adds to the discussion. Do you? Yes No
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According to Lachkar’s website, she’s an “expert” treating individuals and couples, with a list of 15 specialties including communication, anger management and conflict resolution.
She’s lashed out similarly at every negative review she’s received.
I was wrong Don S isn’t the Red Flags book authors husband
I think its Don Salmon – when I posted on here about my review all of a sudden I got the 5 negative votes …likely some of the therapist who view this blog did the vote downs on my Amazon review…
Fiona, after the petulant rotten eggs spew he gave my review –which played right into the point I was making–I wondered why he was so viscerally invested. I likely will respond on your review thread in the next few days.
To prolong my discussion from a couple of days ago, something else that I found (very) disconcerting was the almost evangelical religious fervour with which some therapists regard their psychotherapy . With me there seemed to be a light shining in the therapists eyes at times (if thats not too cheesy an observation) , and even when I left she said ‘ I could yet be saved’ as her parting shot. Very disconcerting as I had had a very brief flirtation with the born-again crowd many years ago.
I don’t by the way wish to insult or devalue anyone’s religious beliefs here.
If anyone takes anything that seriously it always sets alarm bells ringing for me.
No offence taken…
I am a believing Christian but I totally take your point about fanaticism I briefly joined the JW’s in 2003 I didn’t realize it was a cult…I was subjected to mind control.
It was similar to therapy with the abusive therapist…every challenge or criticism I made was bounced right back at me as proof there was something wrong with me I was being pathologized for raising concerns and questions about the Watchtower organization…
Just found a book on Amazon…
Gaslighting and Double Whammy-
Theo Dorpat has given us an important book on a subject that clearly and deeply concerns him. It is about the various subtle ways that the psychotherapist, including the psychoanalyst, indoctrinates the patient without knowing that he is doing so. Dorpat shows us how the therapist, using widely accepted techniques such as questioning the patient, may raise doubts in the patient’s mind about his (the patient’s) own perceptions, and induce the patient to accept the therapist’s sometimes erroneous ideas. Also, Dorpat tells us how the therapist can judge from the patient’s responses to his interventions whether the patient feels set back or helped. Dorpat’s work is based not only on his wide experience in psychoanalysis and related fields, but also on an extensive and detailed study of process notes, in which he carefully analyzes patient-therapist interactions. This book provides a much-needed critique of current clinical practice.
This provocative and disquieting study of the role of covert processes of indoctrination and interpersonal control in therapeutic failures is an important contribution to the growing literature challenging the mythology of therapeutic neutrality and objectivity. Dorpat’s recommendations for making these unconscious influence processes conscious will be invaluable to therapists and analysts in their efforts to discriminate between patterns of compliance and genuine therapeutic change.
Fiona, I loved this book and believe it’s maybe the only one I’ve run across that understands the true nature of power in therapy. While there’s been written about the most egregious exploitation, such as seduction, the more commonplace induction into servility seems either ignored or even applauded.Though therapists they call this their alliance, attachment, and compliance.
I found information about cults and other equally manipulative relationships also relate to my experience.
Reading the blogs and forums of the most “devout” psych clients, I see that religious fervor. Psychotherapy seems elevated to sacredness and criticizing the therapist is a blasphemy equivalent to questioning the priest or perhaps the deity itself.
To Mary S:
Mary S, thanks for your July 18 and September 14 posts – I have just seen them recently while browsing through the site again.
Indeed, our experience with therapy seems similar. I too assumed therapists would set a good example.
Good point about the “shut-ups” – I didn’t realise it but you’re right, the techniques employed served to shut me up, whether she did that consciously or not. Well, i think it shouldn’t ever be the case with a good therapist. I sometimes find myself regretting I didn’t stand up for myself but then I think I did voice my concerns and later was just afraid – is it really my role to defend myself in therapy? Is this some kind of sport or what? (to me it oftentimes felt like some unhealthy competition)
I can relate to your feelings of doubting your judgement and second-guessing yourself about whether there was something wrong with your therapist or with you. And looking for some “objective” validation – like you did those tests, I went to a forum asking specifically whether there was something wrong with my therapist or it was just my imagination. (Of course, psych forums are not places where you can expect an abundance of common sense.)
Yeah well, we have been cheated. To me, my biggest “failure” is how I let therapists/psychologists impact my relationship. My relationship would have most probably not worked out anyway, but it wouldn’t have produced so much suffering and trauma in the end, as well as it wouldn’t have ended with me being abandoned, cut off and unable to speak up after years of being invalidated and thwarted. It is because of what therapists implied (strongly implied, to put it mildly – if you consider my resistance and questioning) that I felt like I should pursue the unhealthy relationship (as it was allegedly unhealthy only in my head) and felt intimidated and wary of standing up for myself or of just trusting my gut and common sense instead of recognising my needs and rights.
“A big fish in a small pond” is a good way to describe some therapists and it has been my impression as well. The couples therapists liked to say how clever she was in a jocular manner, e.g., when she said something to agree with what I or my ex’s was saying, she’d pretend to be him/me and say “you see, the therapist has said so too, and she’s so clever”. That was a joke but still… I would get the impression she really considered herself something special. One of the signs of that was the fact that after the therapy ended, a few months later she said she “perhaps” hadn’t really known what the problem was and “maybe” she lacked intelligence or experience to sort it out. Who keeps dealing with a problem and pretends to know what they’re doing for weeks or months unless they want to seem better/cleverer than they really are and impress the “audience”? It’s not like she was investigative and neutral and just tried to work it out without effect; the problem is she was viewing it through her own blueprint, disregarding everything that didn’t fit; and on top of that later just casually randomly saying that perhaps she didn’t have the competence That was said with such an air of an almost theatrical casualness that it also felt like part of the act rather than a genuine acknowledgement of her shortcomings.
I think I posted on the other blog (50 red flags…) my adventure with a psychiatrist I went to to get a drug before a flight as I suffered from panic attacks. When she learnt the flight was in a few days, her first reaction was a loud mocking arrogant scold “oh great, perfect, just in time, we’ll have 12 weeks to complete the CBT therapy”. I also heard I was “acting stupid and I knew it” :O for avoiding the problem rather than deal with the causes. Well, how is that not a performance, of a know-it-all in front of “lost souls”? She can afford it, people who go to psychiatrists or therapists for that matter don’t go there in a very sharp, clear-headed state of mind, so they’re easily impressed and impressionable.
Another example would be my brother’s therapist. He’s been in therapy a few weeks, I asked him again recently whether he finds it helpful, he says yes as his problem has lessened. Let it be then. I asked him what the session looks like and he said they mostly talk, and – from what I’ve heard from him time and again – they mostly just talk over the same stuff, and he told me he he’d been telling her about watching some vids, browsing the net and suddenly feeling a sense of shame (which is one of his problems) but instead of lying down as he usually does, he felt the need to take a bag with rubbish that was standing in the room (I had been cleaning) and take it out. The therapist told him that act of throwing away the garbage was symbolic of the need to throw away his shame… I asked him whether that resonated with him, he had to think a while and said “not really”. A few years I would have maybe seen a value in an interpretation like hers, but now to me it seemed pretty ridiculous. If these are the insights she feeds him in therapy, then I don’t see how it could be helpful, but at least it seems pretty harmless. When he told our mum the same thing, about the therapist’s garbage bag observation, my mum nodded her head and said “aah, yes, makes sense”, she didn’t question that at all. It goes to show how easy it is for people to trust therapists and for therapists to influence and impress people. I can’t help but think therapy is – to a big extent or in many, many cases – an act.
@ Diseq
.
I Just Posted This on Amazon Com Red Flags.
Page 150 (Baby Steps Off A Cliff)
“She had a pleasing simplicity to her an unsophisticated woman…such a stark contrast to Catherine.. with her successful career as a political scientist…Catherine did not flaunt her frequent achievements..”
Im uncomfortable with one female being compared to another in such terms- Elitism is to not recognize or to devalue very real skills other people have simply because one (the author) has a mental model involving a hierarchy of skills. The therapists wife is portrayed as ‘high achiever’ person of true worth and value by the author? because she conforms to a status striving career orientated narrative .I know her intention was to illustrate the male therapists emasculation but it actually comes over as the author is pushing her belief system of how life should be on to the reader.
The author makes frequent references to the complainants dressing like sluts which infers they are conforming to the norm of measuring their worth in terms of sex appeal . The alternative is women who think of themselves in terms of their occupational status and earning power,and feel a false sense of superiority, surely that is equally as degrading.
Fiona, that fictional therapist’s wife seems to join the sluts as objects of contempt in the “Red Flags” book. The fictional Catherine seems a slut of a different type, the media whore frequently appearing on cable news and “PBS radio*,” who kept her maiden name because it “worked so well” and is cashing in on interest in a well-known public figure.
Women don’t have it easy in Keith-Spiegel’s book.
*To split hairs, our not-for-profit RADIO network in the States is NPR, not PBS.
That Red Flags therapists wife depiction triggered me..it reminded me of my abusive therapy.
Tim (my ex therapist) wife had a doctorate in psychology and he only had a Masters In psych-she was ‘very’ career focused- obsessed with making a name for herself .
Weirdly he would constantly ‘try’ to put me in a whore role -he had one of those whore/ madonna complexes. In one of our (so called) therapy sessions he said I was just like the female character out of the film ‘Shes Gotta have it’-he was in a total fantasy world of his own imagination because Im not like that…at all.
I can imagine…after being subject in a textbook.
In answering my complaint, my therapist portrayed me a raging and completely divorced from reality. I never raised my voice in therapy, was much more like a soft-spoken study-hall geek. My connection to reality will have to speak for itself.
It’s almost funny how the guy saw me as this furious monster. All I was trying to do was leave therapy, after all. And this is why I dislike psych textbooks vilifying “hateful clients.” Their “hateful client” is simply a human being they don’t lack the competence to understand.
SLV: Re: that therapist’s ahem, interpretation of taking out the trash, as we’d say in the States.:-)
I, along with many I’m sure, thought those “profound” interpretations, what it means to take out the trash, are sage parlor trick that therapists offer. In retrospect I could do an extended satirical essay on the real reason I just went to the kitchen, rinsed a few dishes and took a sip of ice tea–I’m washing away the pain of mother and refreshing the deficit of love in my life. It’s total fortune telling; it’s total nonsense.
As I client I wanted a magic oracle. It doesn’t mean they had to deliver themselves as one.
SLV,
Yes, therapy often seemed to me, too, like the therapists were engaging in some kind of sport or unhealthy competition. (In particular, one therapist said, “How can I convince you that I’m on your side?” That really threw me for a loop – I didn’t see the situation as having “sides.”)
I’m so sorry that therapy resulted in making the consequences of your initially iffy relationship so much worse. I guess there’s somewhat of a parallel there with my experience, too: my tendency to have distressful intrusive thoughts of “difficult people” got worse; in particular, I developed really distressing intrusive thoughts of therapists — which have abated somewhat over the years, but not entirely.
Oh how the phrase “loud mocking scold” brings back memories of the one psychiatrist I tried! (That was after trying two psychologists, and deciding they were too unscientific – or perhaps anti-scientific? – for me to be able to work with. I assumed a psychiatrist would be more scientific; I suppose she was, but just a little. But most people are more scientific than those two psychologists.). I wonder if the psychiatrists are selected for, or taught (whether explicitly or by example?) how to engage in the “loud, mocking scold” – the psychiatrist I tried often laughed quite markedly (almost affectedly) as part of the mocking. She acknowledged that laughing at patients was here weakness, but added, “I can’t help it; patients just get themselves into the darnedest situations.”
The throwing-away-the-garbage “interpretation” your brother got is an eye-roller – it fits a stereotype of a therapist.
Your comment, “I can’t help but think therapy is – to a big extent or in many, many cases – an act,” is an interesting one. (I mean that in the sense that it made me think.) I initially was inclined to disagree (maybe my tendency to give the therapists too much benefit of the doubt?), but then started thinking of the possibility that it may indeed be an act – but perhaps an act not so much for the client as “audience,” but more for the therapist – to buttress their own self-image, or the image of what they’d like to believe they are — not realizing that sometimes it just makes them come across as a fool. In fact, one big problem had with therapy is that I so often felt embarrassed for the therapist – I just didn’t know how to deal with that. Indeed, I think the tendency to feel embarrassed for other people when they made fools of themselves was a big part of what I needed help with – but it also made me a poor candidate for therapy.
Here’s a website call theskepticsguide.org breaking down science vs. pseudoscience. Using this as a yardstick, psychotherapy falls into the latter category in every checkpoint.
http://tinyurl.com/k97qj54
ONE POSSIBLE COMPLAINT SCENARIO A challenging client abruptly terminates a therapy session and cancels further sessions. You are told the complaint alleges abusive behaviour, and the head of department will be…
The above is me – Iam challenging client…he wrote about me in a book..above is part of what ex therapist wrote about me.
He is a man with an ego and he didnt take my complaint criticism at all well because he prided himself on a false sense of superiority and intelligence. It was very hard for him to accept he had done any wrong, unethical or any such offence to his image.
My complaint flew in the face of his constructed self image of perfection – it was in opposition of everything that he wanted to embody.
He took massive offence, because of his grandiosity- its a human impulse to try to evade accusations of wrong doing,
He struggled with any adequate argument against my complaint so he resorted to pathologizing me as delusional that satisfied his illusion of personal eminence. He was very well aware there had been a deficit in terms of professionalism he lacked an adequate argument against my complaint so to him it became ‘beyond comprehension’.
He says I abruptly terminated but I didnt- I would tell him he over and over that he was being abusive and in one session he even said “Fiona I know Ive been abusive to you”
Sounds like many parallels in our experiences. I didn’t think therapy successful, therefore I must be delusional.
Thanks for this link. The left-hand column (science) lists qualities that I (naively) expected therapists to have; the right-hand column (pseudoscience) lists qualities that the therapists I tried tended to have. They sure didn’t set a good example.
My therapists fit completely in the right-side, pseudoscience column. I didn’t think in terms of science when I sought therapy, however, I assumed I received an accepted, valid treatment on par with medical science. I didn’t realize until years later how improvised and speculative the intervention was.
The BETTER of my therapists used the unproven Neuro-Linguistic Programming which an completely amateur friend later demonstrated with the same effectiveness in his living room.
I’ll link to the chart again.
http://tinyurl.com/k97qj54
Quotes from page 150 of “The Guru Papers Masks of Authoritarian Power” by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad:
“The guru dangles carrots of esoteric knowledge that he will transmit when he deems the disciple “ready.” Waiting for each new piece of hidden knowledge not only keeps devotees around, but receiving pieces of it (one never gets it all) confirms their worthiness and specialness…. Any conflict the disciples have about submitting to the guru’s authority is defined pejoratively as resistance to a higher truth, the intrusion of ego of a sign of unwillingness to give up attachments…. People whose power is based on surrender of others develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining anything that challenges their status, behavior or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging questions.”
Something the therapist TG was doing was creating resistance in me namely.. trying to influence me into the assigned ‘shes gotta have it’ whore role.
Some of his other female clients had obviously taken to it quite well…turning up dressed like sex objects showing him their skin -short skirts low cut tops etc.
When therapists label a client’s behaviour as resistant difficult challenging hateful etc, typically, one of two things has occurred either they dont have a technique to manage what is going on in the interaction, or they dont understand enough about the client’s world to understand WHY they are responding the way they are.
Most clients/patients get labelled purely due to a lack of therapeutic skill.
There is always a reason to the way the client is responding.
They should try to understand the client’s world.
I believe…therapists can never truly “know” their clients, first because the conveyance is so artificial and removed from life outside the bell jar. The lab worker is always putting his thumb smack in the middle of the biopsy slide.
The therapist has his own (sometimes rigid) expectations of the role he wants for clients. There’s the large issue of hierarchy and how this affects both client and clinician. And then we come to therapy with a lifetime of social expectations that get contorted in the supernatural whirlpool of therapy.
So the labels therapists stick on clients well might be an unhappy result of what’s generated between those two specific people in an artificial human interaction. The therapist has no way of knowing because he can only experience one thing.
Ahh, the Red Flags in Psychotherapy skirmish on Amazon has not quieted completely. Don S. rethought his name-calling response to me–with new name calling. The entire discussion so parallels how therapists interacted with me generally. I’m pessimistic any of them can drop their defenses long enough to understand client assertions here.
This is my revision:
Don S. has now revised his initial spewing response ” bitter, unfair, underhanded attack, “persons who like to throw mud and rotten eggs,” “sniper attacks,” “not good,” and that all-purpose therapist judgment word–INAPPROPRIATE.
His new re-thought invalidation is “axe to grind against psychotherapists, perhaps turning their own bad experiences into bitter attacks,” and “tirade.” It still uses the well-worn ad homimen strategy in attempt to negate my review. Please google +ad hominem +logical fallacy.
Don similarly employs the fallacy setting up of “straw men.” No one said the book was “meant to deride clients as a class.” I’m confident Keith-Spiegel didn’t write her book with malicious intent. The book’s derision seems an unthinking subcurrent.
There is no parity between ridiculing descriptions of clients and professionals in Red Flags, i.e.:
Client Loranna: “I need someone who knows how to get inside people’s heads, someone to help me fight the evildoers.” vs.
Dr. Pegoris: “My approach to confronting Miss Birch on her unconstructive way of living her life was counterproductive.”
Client Megan LaFleur “I a very upsetting experience with a psicologist (sic)…I want to know if this is what psicologists (sic) do…What I want to know is why am so much worse now.” vs.
Dr. Timmick, “…Ms LaFleur would not process a word I said as I attempted to help her accept herself and her circumstances…She drew some bad relationship cards in her life including a narcissistic mother.”
Psychologists: educated, articulate professionals who commit errors.
Four women clients: Dumb, inarticulate, sluttish, childish, poorly dressed, out of touch with reality. Not one client in this book has one positive trait, one moment of even average intellect.
Is this how ethics should be taught? Should a contemporary textbook label “hateful clients” and make them objects of ridicule? Would we want doctor or surgeon training to include laugh riot snickers at the stupid patients’ expense?
This Amazon discussion recreates a marvelous example of a dynamic in harmful therapy, revealing how defensively mental health professionals deal with criticism. I would hope social scientists would accept a dissenting opinion, even welcome it with open arms. Instead, I see diversionary and fallacious argument. I hope that Keith-Spiegel, the ethicist, might consider my feedback with open-heartedness and grace. A peremptoriness is playing here that can happen between provider and client, and I hope ethics students will take note.
The Amazon review is a democratic forum for reader opinion. I wrote mine to challenge the marginalization and exclusivism this book conveys in subtext. Red Flags misses an opportunity to explore more realistically how contempt, self-deception and absolutism can lead a clinician into harming practice.
Providers are on the same continuum with Loranna, Megan, Candy and Betinna-all with fears, burdens and blind spots. If my review makes anyone defensive, please reflect why.
If the author of Red Flags hadnt included the Hateful Patient descriptions I would have put it down to error but due to using those classifications I most definitely think she has unacknowledged disdain.
I posted this on my review…
There is a pervading tone there is a comic relief attitude that the says to the reader these issues are a frivolous matter
An authors writing says something to readers…The characters in this book are presented in the writers voice and its that voice that connects with readers they hear her invitation to disdain they are comfortable with it and they resonate because its one upmanship & In our culture that’s a common form of humour and our brains are used to it and readily process its negative binary stereotyping thats why its satisfying its a form of dominance display.
We could have viewed Megan as vulnerable underdog however because of the negative qualities assigned to her we feel pity due to inferiority.
With Loranna we are encouraged to view her as unlikable our sympathy is with her therapist.
Client Loranna: “I need someone who knows how to get inside people’s heads, someone to help me fight the evildoers.” vs.
Dr. Pegoris: “My approach to confronting Miss Birch on her unconstructive way of living her life was counterproductive.”
Client Megan LaFleur “I a very upsetting experience with a psicologist (sic)…I want to know if this is what psicologists (sic) do…What I want to know is why am so much worse now.”
Dr. Timmick, “…Ms LaFleur would not process a word I said as I attempted to help her accept herself and her circumstances…She drew some bad relationship cards in her life including a narcissistic mother.”
Psychologists: educated, articulate professionals (albeit..in some of the cases exploitative and arrogant)
Female Clients: inferior
Missed a bit out in my last post…
Last edited by the author 2 hours ago
I Love Gingerbread says:
I have to say…its ‘strange’ how some people are so threatened by valid feedback…
Its feedback and constructive criticism that keeps things safe and sane…because it enables information to be accurate.
If information is one sided and individuals who point out unfairness are attacked and silenced mental maps of actual reality can get less and less representative.
As I see it- corrective information on this book has been expressed in the form of a 2 star and 3 star reviews.
The skirmish around this book review duplicates my experience in therapy: the providers terrified and rejecting of any criticism or threat to their sovereignty, nullifying my poor outcome with some omniscient presumption: i.e.: you don’t WANT to get better.
Not one professional has stepped up on Amazon to acknowledge our contribution to the discussion. Anything short of sycophantic praise is unacceptable to that group. The respondent making the positive comment on Fiona’s review identifies himself elsewhere as a Swiss neuroscientist, so has no professional stake in the discussion.
I am terrified at the thought of doctors or surgeons in med school reading books depicting their patients as subhuman fools. I can’t imagine a medical textbook offering “chuckles” like this. I would not want to doctor who stereotyped a loved-one or me a “hateful.” Nor would I want a doctor invalidating my (non-abusive) feedback as a “bitter…tirade.”
I frankly never enjoy entertainment that belittles its characters. My yardstick for a good story is one that allows me a view of a character’s inner life, that shows the character’s strengths, weaknesses and drives, that illuminates truths. “Red Flags” falls short for me as story telling, and even shorter as an ethics lesson.
I just noticed that Friday was the fourth “anniversary” of this website.
Thanks to Disequilibrium for starting and continuing to maintain it. It is an extremely worthwhile contribution to society.
And thanks to all who have been contributing.
I wholeheartedly agree! Happy anniversary, disequilibrium1, and many thanks to you and the other contributors!!
Yes, absolutely! Starting this website was an inspired move! It has done (and is still doing) a lot of good.
I wrote the original essay in response to post #187 on “50 Warning Signs of Questionable Therapy and Counseling” scolding all the “disgruntled” clients. I never dreamed it would gather such a rewarding and astute community. Raising my glass to you for all your thoughtful posts and good spirits. You’ve given me much to think about. Happy anniversary! Cheers!
[…] https://disequilibrium1.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/a-disgruntled-ex-psychotherapy-client-speaks-her-pie… […]
belatedly – thanks from me as well – a very valuable resource to counter the “therapy – industrial complex “
Thanks for all the insight and company on the voyage. It’s surprising how few of us dare even question the wizard.
A big Congrats on this anniversary. Don t know about anyone else here, but this blog has given me the courage to come out of the closet to others re: my experiences with therapists. That in itself says a lot.
I’ve had to proceed with caution discussing my agnosticism about therapy in real life. Some friends receive it as a personal threat that I’ve lost my belief in their oracle. Amazingly, I still hear strong, independent people in their 60s express a childlike “my therapist says” or reproach me that I can’t grow without magical “belief” in therapy and therapists. It’s as if my skepticism destabilizes what they consider their secure lifelines.
Several therapists have reacted to my opinions with defensive fury. But it seems their adoring public also act as enforcers for therapy’s dominion.
Journal article by Lilienfeld and team covering how psych research can be inaccurate. He gives us the term “causes of spurious therapeutic effectiveness,” or CSTEs and which he explores in the article. I pasted a Huffington Post summary above. CSTEs? I prefer the term –garden path– personally.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wray-herbert/why-psychotherapy-appears_b_5599479.html
Click to access Lilienfeld-et-al-Why-ineffective-psychotherapies-appear-to-work-a-taxonomy.pdf
Great article on the causes of spurious therapeutic effectiveness. I added it to my list: http://trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/links/.
Primal Therapy guru Arthur Janov offers this unpublished book entitled “Grand Illusions” a critique of completing schools of therapy that as he says, “avoid feeling. Click the link to access chapters. Primal therapy has been widely criticized in itself.
http://www.primaltherapy.com/GrandDelusions/
There’s a new series in the NY Times about psychotherapy called “Couch” that may be worth commenting on:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/25/my-mothers-psychotherapy-and-mine/
I looked at the articles in the series so far — they are disappointing; they tend to over-glorify therapy and therapists, in my opinion.
After writing this last night, I decided that “over-glorify” doesn’t really say what I was trying to say; “whitewash” says it better. For example, the October 25 article (“My Mother’s Psychotherapy — and Mine”), describes how the author’s mother tried to kill herself after her psychotherapist moved out of town. But the tone of the article was not at all critical of the profession. To me, the story of the author’s mother cries out for the question: Doesn’t the profession have some responsibility to try to help a client/patient in this situation? I am not blaming the individual therapist; therapists, like many people often move to another location, for a variety of reasons. But there needs to be some mechanism for helping clients/patients (especially ones such as the author’s mother) transition to such a change. Also, one wonders if the therapist did not do enough to help the mother become more self-sufficient, or if the therapy process just encouraged dependence on the therapist.
There are numerous blogs and some forums by clients describing their ongoing accounts of therapy. Admittedly, this is a self-select sampling, because someone who chooses to chronicle or share her weekly sessions likely is immersed and enthralled with the process.
But an overwhelming percentage of these accounts depict what impressed me as nearly toddler-like dependency on the practitioner, and ongoing self-obsession and curating every memory, every passing thought, and even the smallest disappointment or everyday difficulty.
I read these accounts wondering how these people functioned before they coupled themselves to their supreme magus. Were they always this helpless or is their enfeeblement an artifact of their compliance?
The Times states the column is for “patient” as well as practitioner input, but I haven’t gotten moving on this. I’m happy to support anyone who wants to take a crack at this.
I suspect most practitioners will use this feature to glorify and market themselves. (Moved, since it was in the wrong thread.)
How do psychotherapists determine if a client has deteriorated under their care? Shrug.
http://digest.bps.org.uk/2010/03/can-therapists-tell-when-their-clients.html
Thanks for this link. I’ve added a comment saying it’s not surprising, based on my experience.
http://badpsychologyblog.org/
Here’s a blog dedicated to filtering the pseudo-science of psychology. If you’re in the mood for a well-presented college lecture, there’s a link to Lilienfeld’s hour-long talk on permutations on affirmation bias in “Why Pseudoscience Belongs in the Psychology Classroom,” essentially a lecture on the psychology of gullibility. I watched parts, enjoyed it, and learned cool words like apophenia and pareidolia. I found him an incisive, well-organized, engaging speaker.
He argues psych students need to be exposed to fallacies of pseudo-science, to solidify their understand of real science science. The lecture includes the Richard Feynman quote that science demands “bending over backwards to prove ourselves wrong.”
While I appreciate Lilienfeld’s skeptical voice, I’ve only seen him speaking out on the less orthodox theories and modalities.The psych field evidences far too little of that bending over backwards from my viewpoint.
Glad to find this blog. I googled “are therapists trained to avoid accountability.” My last therapist helped me until something he predicted went wrong. At that point my therapist did not exit gracefully. He was unable to be empowering in face of that disappointing experiment. Instead he sort of turned on me, got really distant, and shoved me off to a discount therapy clinic that sees “anxiety” and “anger” as toxic emotions that need to be addressed and erased. He shamed me about recent payment. Thank goodness now we have healthgrades.net where I was able to leave him a rating for all to see (after attempting many many many times to address this in person WITH HIM.) It is such a shame as to that point he’d helped me.
But what also troubles me is week after week I said to my therapist my mother has a narcissistic personality disorder, is there something I should know about this the self-help books I’ve found don’t seem to say much. He didn’t know and he never asked colleagues. He never offered to refer me to a colleague. This was 2009. In just the few short years since, much more has appeared on the Internet for me to refer to for NPD.
Also, about a year into therapy as I was approaching a critical point, he handed me a letter that explained he was leaving in two weeks for a two-month trip to Western Europe treat TMI troops returning from combat. This is fine, but he left no number of a backup therapist in the letter, but instead “I will periodically check email, you can contact me over email and we can set up skype” if we need to talk. He left no number of a backup therapist on his outgoing voicemail while he was away. When I asked in that session for a name of a backup therapist, he told me I would not need a backup therapist because I was handling things better. My company had announced upcoming layoffs and I told him this and he said I always land on my feet.
Honestly if consumers just had more of a guide of what they had a right to — such as a backup therapist, or when their therapist should consult other therapists on a subject area that is not their specialty — so much of this could have been prevented. I needed a consumer’s guide.
Since then I had another run-in when subletting from someone who was you guessed it, a professional therapist working for the government. This man blame-shifted unlike anyone I’d encountered in years. I’ll leave the details for another post. It made me think, in all the years since my personal therapist, and my experience with this recent person who is a therapist, they stood out as the most resistant to accountability of everyone I’ve interacted with in that time. It made me wonder if their very training encouraged blame-shifting or rather if it was merely the nature of the work itself that made them burn out on accountability and they indirectly developed a blame-shifting habit for survival. Nope – it is their training.
Response on Yahoo Questions from a practicing therapist:
Why do therapists suck? (Forgive the crudeness) https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081207220955AAQD5Fj
“I love this question and I am a therapist myself… he he. What’s sad is that I totally agree with you. I can’t count the number of therapists I have met that left me thinking to myself, “You are a complete waste of time.” With that said, there have been a few that I say to myself, “This guy or gal is amazing!” With that said, there’s more mediocre to terrible therapists than there are above average to excellent ones. Because of this fact, I stress that a person must look around and not base their opinion on only one therapist. Keep in mind the relationship in therapy that you have with your therapist is the most important thing. If you don’t connect with your therapist after a couple of sessions, find another one.
“As for, “why do therapists suck?” Many reasons…. I’ve given this some thought. #1. There is little to no accountability in the mental health care field. If a therapist’s clients do not improve nothing happens. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard a therapist state things like the following when they didn’t get results with a client, “we can’t help them all, some people aren’t ready to change, we are just planting seeds and in the future the results will come, blah blah blah BLAH!!!.” Even though I agree with everyone one of those statements…. IF ALMOST EVERY ONE OF YOUR CLIENTS IS NOT GETTING BETTER AND YOU ARE A WASTE OF TIME BASED ON RESULTS, THIS SHOULD BE POINTED OUT BY THE REST OF THE PROFESSIONALS! This does not occur often enough. ” … he goes on at the link https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081207220955AAQD5Fj
FJA, I have a strong viewpoint on why therapists can be so dismal. With one exceptional my troubled experience was less my well-intentioned practitioners and more the delusions they peddled. My so-called treatments were no more than mystification, faith healing, speculation, motivational coaching, boilerplate advice and guru role playing, but all dressed up as science.
My problem with that Yahoo answer guy is he’s all ready to denigrate his “lesser” colleagues, but yet spreads his equally unproven lore as absolute truth.
“Some of the skills that make a GREAT therapist you have to be born with….”
Oh really.
“Many therapists are wounded healers who have not overcome their issues yet.”
Is there a human being who HASN’T had pain in his life?
Therapists so readily offer pulled-from-the-air wisdom as fact. And despite all this dreadful practitioners this guy still pushes us to try more therapy, provided we find a good one.
I’ve seen therapists pull impulses from the air and center treatment around this astounding, completely unsubstantiated miracle cures. The history of psych treatment is full of these “whoops” embarrassments.
The NY Times just this week looks back on Sybil with a video including an interview from Jeanette Bartha:
And here’s the latest speculation about the roots of depression.
http://op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/26/what-if-were-wrong-about-depression/?src=me
What if they were “wrong”?
How about some study before foisting their unfounded guesses upon the trusting public?
Well I’ve finally accepted some people are more sensitive than others, and not just because they were abused. Some people just absorb more from their environment than others and that seems innate. That does not mean they would be good therapists.
My problem is the training and practicing in the profession seems to chase the common sense out of practicing therapists.
I found his comment “clicked” with me that there are more mediocre to bad therapists than there are good effective ones. That is in line with my experience.
I ended up seeing a therapist a few years after that bad experience with the last therapist. This time I interviewed about 8 therapists over the phone before meeting the first one in person. And I had to see three in person before I found one good enough to see a second time.
That therapist was pretty good, but the first few appointments were a battle – she said I had to trust her. I countered trust is earned. She fought back. I said I mete out trust over time, and it would be inappropriate for me to completely trust her on our first meeting. She finally moved on instead of labeling me as “oppositional” thank goodness!
She also pushed me to talk about something from the past that was unpleasant. I said we’ve already gone over this, it makes me feel bad to ruminate, and my goal in therapy is to get back to the present and get on my way.
Then I had to fight to wrap up the therapy. I said I’d like to end on a high note. She said we were just getting started. I said this is all I can afford. She didn’t even acknowledge that comment but pressed for more appointments. Finally when the funding to pay her “dried up” after that appointment, she said she was sorry to inform me (as I relented and DID schedule more appointments with her) that we couldn’t continue.
All that said, she *was* helpful. She was able to get me focused back on the present and the near future. She was able to “see” me as normal, and I knew I was normal but finally *felt* normal.
Had I been a more informed consumer the first time I would have insisted on some basics from the start, such as a backup therapist should my therapist leave suddenly for a two-month vacation. I would have pushed myself to evaluate every three sessions whether I was ready to terminate. And I would have set a goal not to see any one therapists for longer than, say, nine months. For real. Even that is pushing it. And I advise anyone who looks for a therapist to prepare a therapy “exit strategy” and be prepared for even the most highly rated therapists to NOT APPROVE of your decision to terminate.
The goal in my opinion is to get re-connected to your feelings, as an abusive environment can cut you off from them. It should be to keep you functioning in your day-to-day life.
Sorry my posts are so long. There is more to the story but I’ll stop here.
FJA,
Thanks for joining the discussion. There are some points from this last post that I’d like to pull out to reinforce/emphasize for people considering therapy:
“I interviewed about 8 therapists over the phone before meeting the first one in person. And I had to see three in person before I found one good enough to see a second time.”
Yes, finding a “good enough” therapist can be difficult. I had no idea just how difficult when I first tried therapy.
“That therapist was pretty good, but the first few appointments were a battle – she said I had to trust her. I countered trust is earned. She fought back. I said I mete out trust over time, and it would be inappropriate for me to completely trust her on our first meeting. She finally moved on instead of labeling me as “oppositional” thank goodness!”
Yes, trust has to be earned!! Trusting a therapist without the therapists’ earning it can be really risky. It seems to me that a decent therapist should realize that they need to earn your trust. But so many seem to think that they are above having to earn trust. So sad.
“Had I been a more informed consumer the first time I would have insisted on some basics from the start, such as a backup therapist should my therapist leave suddenly for a two-month vacation. I would have pushed myself to evaluate every three sessions whether I was ready to terminate. And I would have set a goal not to see any one therapists for longer than, say, nine months. For real. Even that is pushing it. And I advise anyone who looks for a therapist to prepare a therapy “exit strategy” and be prepared for even the most highly rated therapists to NOT APPROVE of your decision to terminate.”
Yes, these are all good advice – so sad that these are necessary.
A person I met earlier this year (I subletted a room and bathroom from him and his wife) who I knew outside of a therapy setting seemed reasonable and revealed he was a practicing therapist paid by the government. All was fine and good but later he said a few peculiar things that made me revisit this issue of therapists eventually becoming blame-shifting jerks.
He and his wife watched a movie and later I watched the same one, it starred Robin Williams as a high school teacher and one of the minor characters was the high school counselor.
A lot of the people in this school (in the movie) were lacking in basic decent character – they lied, were vain, etc. However I found Robin Williams to have given a strong performance and the story had an unexpected ending which was a nice surprise.
When I saw the man next, I said I liked the movie and the man (my psuedo-landlord) looked distressed and said well, the movie had a few “problems”. He said the counselor/therapist in the movie was vain and self-interested and that did not make any sense, as a therapist would never be that way. I said well maybe he was a bad therapist as every profession has good and bad players within it. The man’s facial expression changed from relaxed to cold, outraged, and he just looked at me. Oh forgive me, dear therapist, for thinking of therapists as human.
How on earth would a therapist who thinks you trust people based purely on their line of work, that you do not look at their track record, performance over time, etc., how on earth would this man be in a position to give other people therapy?
Moreover, outside of this conversation, this man seemed to understand logic in all other relations. Except when something else came up that was his fault. Once again he started out reasonable but used double-talk and shaming to make the situation much more confusing than it had to be, and blamed someone who was the victim of his own mistake.
I’ve seen practitioners live in a therapists-can-do-no-wrong fantasy, assuming any problematic therapy must stem from client defects. I understand (someone correct me) that early psychoanalytic writings were particularly staunch, that unsuccessful outcomes earned patients labels like narcissistic, resistant, non-compliant or ” unanalyzable.” Meanwhile people who have the most difficulties can be deemed “poor candidates” for therapy, like the client needs to be all right before treatment can commence.
There are so many widespread psych notions with which I disagree. Trust? I don’t believe I should unconditionally surrender judgment because someone hangs a shingle. Getting in touch with feelings? What does that mean? My successes in life can hinge how I negotiate my responses which have so many variations I often can’t predict outcome, much less someone who isn’t in the room.
Therapy-think is a pseudo-world and framework that has distanced me from life rather than served me.
If someone trusted anyone who told them they must trust, a naive me would tell the person “you need therapy, you should not trust someone just because they demand it.” That book “Gift of Fear” explained it so well.
I found this article on PsychCentral http://www.psychotherapy.net/article/bad-therapy-1-kory#section-the-problem-with-the-“great-masters. Glad to see that more and more professionals are coming clean about the flaws of their training and the dishonesty behind their “expert” facade. Hope to see this trend grow in the future.
Hurray, I’m glad to see a new voice from the field asking these questions. Thanks for this, Marina.
The author has neither posted my comment or responded to my email from a few days ago. I hope she follows through on this project. I’ve read the psych industry can be brutal to those in their ranks who question them.
Dear disequilibrium1,
Are you willing to be interviewed about your experiences? Everything will remain confidential. Please see my call for research participants for further details: http://kdickson1.wix.com/research I hope it is ok to post this here. If not – obviously, please remove.
I feel very passionate about this topic and I hope I would be able to publish my research in an open access journal for professionals and also for clients. I too have read Sue Elkind’s work and she is amazing, and the consultancy service she offers for clients who have negative experiences, well we need this here in the UK. I also read a chapter where she discussed her personal experiences, and it is so powerful. The level of invalidation she experienced, is immense.
All the best
Kelly
Kelly, I’m happy to post your call for interviewees. I’ve personally turned my back on therapy, as several of us have, and have hard-fought decisions behind that. Another blog with parallel discussions is
http://trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/2
Thanks. I’m glad you’re researching this.
Thanks you – for posting my call and for the link to a parallel discussion. I shall definitely check it out.
From what I have read so far, I understand the reason for turning your back on therapy. I only wish it were different, but unfortunately it is not. Thanks for your support on me deciding to do this research. I had some negative reactions to it, the very kind of reactions that I hope to address by going ahead, I.e. not turning our backs on clients who have had less than ideal
experience and had to leave!
Kelly, I’m not surprised you’ve had negative reactions, which perhaps are comparable to what some of us experienced when we tried to raise issues with our providers. I understand writers like Smail, Dineen and Masson received all sorts of backlash, and this therapist’s attack on patient-author Anna Sands for a book I found quite excellent is a classic example:
http://www.lindamartinonline.com/articles/opinion-a-response-to-anna-sands-falling-for-therapy/
I can expound on my conjectures, but I feel the therapy relationship always had a subtle undercurrent of dominance. The provider might show his kind, caring face as long as I was compliant, surrendering and idolizing. But question the therapist or the technique, I drew rage. You’ll have to take me at my word I was extremely even-keeled and polite when I did it.
Regular readers forgive me for linking to the Red Flags review to this again, but I also found this discussion very revealing:
Though psychotherapists tell consumers that they’re scientists, reactions to positions like ours range from condescending and dismissive, to diagnostic, to vitriolic, and that itself is very telling to me.
Kelly,
I can appreciate your reasons for interviewing people who have left psychotherapy that was not helpful, but I hope you keep in mind that your results will inevitably be biased, for at least the following two reasons:
First, using interviews will fail to give voice to those such as myself for whom this format is not friendly. The short story: For me, an interview is too much like therapy. To elaborate a little: Part of what I hoped for in therapy was becoming better at coping with personal attention and at oral communication – things like thinking on my feet, saying no, not being so easily influenced by what others say or ask, being less flustered, etc. Regrettably, therapy demanded exactly these skills; the therapists didn’t seem to consider that someone could need help with them. I also think that some things the therapists intended as supportive (e.g, giving permission, suggesting words, saying I communicated well) were the opposite (e.g., saying I communicated well when I clearly had not communicated what I was trying to say).
Second, the questions you ask, how you respond to the interviewee during the interview, and any editing you do will inevitably introduce bias. I don’t mean a deliberate bias; just the kind we all have (and that often interferes with effective therapy – e.g., when the therapist’s “of course” conflicts with the client’s “of course”).
I hope that you will try to take these sources of possible bias into account when planning interviews, when conducting interviews, and when writing up your findings. I also hope that you will explicitly acknowledge these and other possible sources of bias when writing up your results.
Mary, as you describe, my own biggest weakness when I was younger was thinking and reacting on my feet. I’ve improved because life demanded it, but I doubt my therapists understood, much less where able to help with that. (I was taught assertiveness through use of robotic “I feel” statements, while remaining utterly beholden to the therapist.)
I only left one treatment unhappily, but that doesn’t tell the story. In fact I was too happy–read gullible–a customer for my other treatments. It wasn’t until later I realized I was hoodwinked.
I likely would have been afraid to take part in research when the experience was fresh. I was so invalidated by therapists, so negated by those I considered authority figures, that I wouldn’t have taken the risk.
Unless someone knows the experience, she might not understand the powerless, the sometimes raw anger, the gaslighting that bad therapy inflicted. It often takes much time and distance for those who’ve been through it to gather their thoughts around it.
Hi Mary,
Thank you for raising this, i totally agree. There will be numerous biases in this small scale (unfunded MA) research project and i will definitely be reflecting on these limitations. Overall i just will not be able to do the enormity of the scope of this topic justice. This area of research really needs a team of researchers, taking a mixed methods approach and have user involvement throughout and be directly linked into the policy and practice debates around the delivery of psychological therapies in the NHS and private sector. The idea of harm needs, imo, to be much further up the agenda.
I would have preferred to take a mixed methods approach even for this project, and thought about other ways people could provide ‘data’, such a journalling, where my questions / expectations / biases would hopefully not interfere. I have also been thinking about what power balance will emerge in the interviews, and the extent to which the interviews reproduce/ ‘mimicking’ as you say the therapy experience. Also if/ how transparent i need to be about my own experiences of leaving therapy suddenly/early and if this would make a positive or negative difference.
My research experience is in conducting systematic reviews, so i am still grappling with some of these primary research dilemmas. The constraints are frustrating, but i will try my best. As I would have also liked someone else, e.g. outside of psychotherapy, to read my transcripts and contribute to the analysis but it raises ethical dilemmas and other complications with regards to the aim of the project for MA purposes.. mhm…
Thanks for raising these issues and supporting my thinking processes, very useful. Kelly
Kelly, I appreciate you doing this research which seems to be woefully neglected by the profession.
Iatrogenic therapy is such a complex and quicksilver subject. When the worst of my therapy first happened, I was overpowered: I was afraid to file a complaint or even join an available support group. My understanding over the years has evolved. I’ve come to understand my so-called good therapy set me up to be far more vulnerable to the bad.
Consumers with bad experiences seem to be disbelieved or “blamed”: we had negative transference; we were resistant; we had some grave disorder.* I sense professionals thrashing wildly to avoid considering their operational fallacies.
It would be good to be heard person-to-person, as opposed to the theoretical lens. On one level the experience was simply meanness, but with the complicated overlay of my preconditioning to idolize the therapist.
I find consumers like us are merely written off: “ohhhhhh, you had a bad experience” like it’s an isolated, rather than systemic event.
*This is not to take away from anyone with transference, resistance, gravely disordered who were harmed by therapy who deserve respect too.
I left bad reviews of two therapists a few years back and experiencing those two back-to-back really affected me.
One reason it still lingers in my mind is, I didn’t want to leave bad reviews. I tried to give these two benefit of the doubt many many times. Really if someone is dangerously incompetent OR so arrogant then I leave a bad review. I suspect these therapists were just under-trained or under-supported OR (my strongest hunch) – they’ve had it too easy for too long and had grown lazy under the impression they did not have to try.
One therapist I’d asked week after week how to deal with someone who has Borderline Personality Disorder. He replied he didn’t know. Because I am a working person myself, I assumed he would “do some homework” and come back to me with an answer, a lead to someone who DID have an answer or at least more information, something.
I’d assumed (wrongly) this therapist’s licensing dues gave him access to a network of providers who he could contact for questions on this topic, news on new trends, how new social media trends are affecting people, etc. But week after week he came back with: Nothing. He’d forgotten my question and I had to repeat it. Had he been a new therapist, I would have moved on. But he was not.
That was one of about five transgressions in a row at the end of our relationship that just piled up. I’d asked for a referral to a different therapist who DID know how to deal with a BPD person and he countered with I no longer really needed therapy because I was handling things better than when I first entered therapy with him.
Again, the situation affected me because this therapist began as a sane and helpful person. But as the difficulties in my personal relationships ebbed and flowed, this therapist said things in our sessions that seemed more and more crazy. Another gem from him was “why are you stressed about personal relationships falling away? You shouldn’t need anyone but yourself in life.” !?
Yet another troubling memory from that time was, I sought him out for support in managing my life trying to minimize the intrusions of my controlling mother. My mother did not know I had a therapist and I’d cut off contact with her. Still she sent people to contact me on her behalf. The more my mother intruded into my life at the end, the more this therapist said “I’ll talk to your mom.” He did not ASK if I wanted him to talk to her. He just declared it. I said no, please don’t talk to her, I am paying you to help me keep her away. He responded with a shrug. I was terrified he was going to go talk to her behind my back. He was not very reassuring at that time. It felt like an enormous betrayal when he responded with a simple shrug.
In hindsight, I wish I had not had such a strong reaction to what he’d said. He did not go so far as to contact my mother behind my back. But why would he say such a thing without bending over backwards to reassure me? I get that in day-to-day interactions, it can be exhausting to reassure somebody who needs excessive amounts of reassurance. But in a PAID RELATIONSHIP where you are the therapist, and the person’s primary difficulty in life has been your mother usurping all your relationships and decisions without your consent, isn’t this a no-brainer?
It seems dealing with any professional in any line of work I try to work with them and try to realize they are human beings who may screw up time and again.
But when someone of moderate competence exhibits habits of a) carelessness and b) arrogance or c) dismissiveness, then moderate competence plunges to dangerous incompetence.
So many mistakes could be cleaned up if the professional a) displayed diligence and effort in referring the client/customer to another therapist, or b) displayed at least FAKE concern for the client’s well-being, and concern the client’s needs are not being addressed, then so much damage would be minimized.
I’m at the point now where I discourage people everywhere from seeking therapy. It is just too risky that psychotherapy will do more harm than good. I now see therapists as likely the most lacking in common sense of any people I interact with.
FJA, I found therapists pulled me down their theoretical rabbit holes into a distorted world view–that normal was pathological, the events were remote, abstractions to be anatomized, that I myself was an object to be observed and studied, that I was the product of my victimhood, that I was the past as opposed to the future I created myself. The distortions went on indefinitely.
The worst was that the therapists pretended to be sages, experts on living, holding some unattainable golden key. This left me feeling more inferior, more dependent, more accountable to dominant personalities. I realize now what a hoax it all was.
Disequilibrium1 I’m glad you started this blog. I’ve been reading through all the comments and looking for an “aha!” moment, that this is getting more attention and the licensing associations are doing something about it. I don’t really see it in the comments other than small minimal blips here and there. The original article you wrote is so well-written, particularly the ending list of what you would do differently if you were the therapist. Like so much these days, something that seems so timely and ripe will fail to gain traction, then suddenly blows it wide open to the general public. I wonder if that will happen here.
I keep coming back to: if only I the client had been handed a simple pamplet with a checklist of how the client should treat therapy and what the client should expect FROM therapy, and what the client should do if client’s therapist does x, y, z, well if I had, then I would not be dissuading people from seeking therapists today. We will see.
FJA, I’m so glad you’ve found the blog helpful. I originally wrote it in reaction to a therapist’s contemptuous spew on a blog about–bad therapy. It comforts me to know I’m not alone in my perceptions.
As you might have gathered my criticisms are less about the “few bad apples” that the therapists discuss, and more on what I see are flaws of the larger paradigm.
I personally think that the public shouldn’t scramble their minds with therapy unless absolutely necessarily, a viewpoint shared by a late head of a psych department in this book. http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Games-Robert-Baker/dp/1573920711/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418526869&sr=1-1&keywords=9781573920711
You might also enjoy: trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/
“I too have read Sue Elkind’s work and she is amazing, and the consultancy service she offers for clients who have negative experiences, well we need this here in the UK.”
Hello, where can we locate this consultancy service?
FJA,
Sue Elkind has a website at http://icpla.edu/member-search/sue-n-elkind-ph-d/. But it indicates that she is a psychoanalytic therapist, which I would take as caution that she might be of limited help if you don’t have that orientation.
FJA,
Your comments on December 11 and 13 brought to mind a book I read a number of years ago with title something like “Psychotherapy May Be Harmful to Your Mental Health.” At the end, the author asked the question, “What are you paying for?” when you engage the services of a psychotherapist. The answer she came up with was “Their time.”
Sadly, that often does seem to be all that you are paying for – most don’t seem think that “doing their homework” is part of their job. The logical conclusion is equally sad: If the time you spend with them is not helpful, then quit.
I wonder how many therapists take that attitude (that you’re paying just for their time). I wouldn’t be surprised if some do. But I suspect also that there are some who believe that you’re not just paying for their time, but for their (self-perceived?) warmth/insight/intuition/good company, or whatever. I suspect some think you are paying for what their training has taught them. But I think that some therapists might actually be better without the training.
I, too, experienced two “bad” therapists back-to-back. I suppose it actually was three in a row, but the first wasn’t as bad as the next two – or maybe it was just that I quit her earlier than the others. I made the mistake of telling the first and third in person that I was quitting, and each left me with an uncalled-for parting comment. The first said, “You expect too much;” the third, “You’ll never get better if you keep seeking the perfect therapist. No, I wasn’t seeking a perfect therapist – just a good-enough, reasonably competent one (perhaps approaching the general competence level of a physician, physical therapist, exercise instructor, massage therapist, etc.) I’m sorry to say that it seems that many therapists just have no idea of competence – I do really believe that some of them buy into the fairy tale that their warmth, friendliness, caring, or whatever, can work miracles – even if they seem cold, unfriendly, uncaring and incompetent to the client.
From reading, therapists have varied ways of explaining how they think they’re –healing–(itself a murky concept). Some seem to believe in the magic in the power of their performed “love,” or that their installing a “corrective emotional experience,” as if they’re so perfected, somehow expunges an imperfect childhood. Some seem to believe in the power of witnessing, or training their clients to related in the abstracted, removed vocabulary of therapy.
After eagerly buying into the folklore, I think it all no more than faith healing.
Of possible interest: James Coyne debunks “positive psychology” research (with a lot of skepticism of psychology research in general): http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2014/12/18/will-following-positive-psychology-advice-make-happier-healthier/
Thanks, Mary. That article contains another famous phrase: “The field is still young.”
In honor of winter solstice, I’ll link to another happy talk debunking. Again, the psych complex markets first, verifies–sort of–later until they latch on to the next miracle cure.
Two more items of possible interest on psychotherapy hucksterism:
http://jcoynester.wordpress.com/
and
https://deborahapthorp.wordpress.com/
Disequilibrium,
Re your comment “I find consumers like us are merely written off: “ohhhhhh, you had a bad experience” like it’s an isolated, rather than systemic event,” in your December 21 reply to Kelly:
I recently (I forget where) saw a news clip mentioning that on college campuses, “I had a bad experience” is being used as a euphemism for date rape.
“Bad experience” certainly is a kitchen sink term. Or maybe a sweep under the rug.
Comment on the latest NY Times “Couch” piece:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/03/me-me-me-and-my-therapist/
“It’s so sad to see that you’ve invested so much time, money, and heart into a one-sided paid relationship in which one person has all the power to dole out paid-for bits of affection as he sees fit while you stand by in a powerless, regressed state hoping he’ll dole out another bit. Imagine how different it would be if you had instead invested in a mutual give-and-take friendship among equals. You could talk freely about each other’s interests and travels, and be equally invested in each other’s love and affection. You could feel empowered knowing that one party doesn’t hold all of the cards, and that you are participating in the relationship as equal, mutually valued adults.
When you first signed up for “therapy” with this guy, did he ensure that there was an informed consent process in which you understood what this kind of relationship might entail, how it may or may not benefit your mental health, and how it might harm your sense of independence, ability to see yourself as an equally valuable partner in mutual give-and-take friendships, etc.?”
Though this NY Times blog seems extreme, I’ve seen many accounts on internet forums written by clearly infantilized clients. I always wonder how the therapist fed this, and who the client would be if not defining herself through the therapy lens.
In contrast, the Couch blog post at http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/10/getting-grief-right/ is one of the most sensible things I’ve ever seen by a therapist.
Mary, I agree. He writes about his subject without a yardstick of correctness or paternalism.The client in this account had dismiss the therapy culture decree of how she must process an intensely sad event.
I found this blogger among the NY Times comments ranting about the anti-intellectualism that pop psychology promotes. http://utopiandreams.net/science-society/
This reminds me of when a therapist said to me, “I get the feeling you think this should be an intellectual discussion, ” with a strong tone of disdain in her voice on the word “intellectual.” I replied, “I think it should be, in part, since I am in part an intellectual person.” She said nothing in reply. (Her comment was consistent with her overall behavior; she seemed unwilling to give reasons for her behavior, and in fact once said, “Consider me to be something like a computer. What you say goes in, mixes around with my experience and training, and out comes a response.” She certainly seemed to have no sense of intellectual rigor or careful thinking.)
When I was in therapy, the speculation du jour was the power of “getting in touch with our emotions.” So therapists gave us the “how do you feel” test, chastising us sternly if we answered with an explanation rather than naming a simple emotion like anger or fear. Except, ironically, model statements like “I feel anger” were recited robotically by the therapists.
From all I’ve seen, psychotherapy is the Johnny Appleseed of anti-science. Widely used treatments are dreamed up, and practiced prior to attempt at validation. Some providers seem to put great stock in discarding by-the-book solutions and using intuition, another way of saying that once they get in the room with a client,they can utterly wing it. I wonder if that’s because the remedies in “book” didn’t work.
There’s nothing stop the profession from dancing around the maypole, scattering glitter and calling that healing. Negative outcome? They don’t wanna hear no stinking negative outcome. I’ve become increasingly convinced psychotherapy is a specialty built on whim, fable and stage illusion.
No surprise here: crafts, creating things can deliver the satisfaction and serenity that therapy and drugs promise. I’m only irked that the psych industrial complex will appropriate a readily available human activity and turn it into “therapy” that they then monitor and supervise.
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/ditch-the-prozac-take-up-crafting-108671160605.html
Behind the scenes of the psych industrial complex. Here are some teasers for continuing education courses. The first one concerns how to prevent addiction program dropouts. Helping the patient is completely absent from the discussion:
“The number one goal of a detox, residential treatment center, PHP, IOP, halfway house or sober living facility is to fill the beds with quality candidates that need your services. This is where most drug and alcohol treatment centers struggle to maintain a census of appropriate candidates.”
http://www.theaddictionsacademy.com/reduce-ama-ata/
Here’s a course to help your call centers workers close the deal:
http://www.theaddictionsacademy.com/addmission-center-call-center-training/
Business developer and marketer training:
http://www.theaddictionsacademy.com/business-developer-marketer-training/
This brings to mind an experience quite a number of years ago when consumer information about therapy was much much harder to obtain that it is now with the web. I read somewhere that one of the state chapters of the American Psychological Association had created a packet on consumer information about therapy. So I sent in a check and eagerly awaited the reply.
When it came, it was very disappointing: There was a kind of loose leaf notebook aimed at psychologists and a pocket containing a small booklet written for consumers. The stuff in the loose leaf notebook basically said that more and more consumers were going to social workers and psychiatrists, so the purpose of the initiative was to gain a larger market share of the therapy market for psychologists. The pitch was to promote psychologists as having training that gave them good communication skills.
This pitch was doubly disappointing to me since one of the frustrations I had experienced with therapists was that they were so poor at communicating — and didn’t even seem to care about communicating well.
(The booklet for consumers was complete pap.)
About 95 percent of what I read from psychotherapists is condescending pap. It’s an revealing look how how therapists imagine the person they believe they’re healing.
Research how rumination might incite and prolong psychological distress:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23490204
Comment by blogger:
http://utopiandreams.net/rs/
I was not able to find a copy of the article, but did find out that the journal in question has a checkered past; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Hypotheses. Based on what I have learned about the journal, it may be that the article did not report research, but just proposed a theory.
I vowed years ago that I would never see a therapist again, and I haven’t. However, my son is having some problems (he is 18), and is seeing a therapist. He wants me to come with him to his next session. I do want to help him, and for this reason only, I have agreed to go with him. HOWEVER, I AM GOING TO SECRETLY TAPE RECORD THE SESSION! I am a lawyer, and live in California. I did some research, and it is a big no-no if a therapist tapes a session without a client’s permission; but not vice-versa. I am taping for the following reasons, all which I have experienced WAY too many times:
1) If the therapist says something dumb/ludicrous/illogical/ sits there and/or tells us all or any of HER problems;
2) If the therapist says nothing during the session; or never shuts up during a session, not allowing me to talk;
3) If the therapist says something racist and/or anti-Semitic. I am Jewish and did have an anti-Semitic therapist. What a joy that was.
4) If after the therapist does one, or more, of the above, and later, when I confront him/her denies ever having made that statement.
Am also doing this:
5) If I have to file a complaint with the Licensing Board. Even if I eventually lose (and I know many of you have), I will have evidence to back up my complaint. (Law says I can use tapes in administrative proceedings, which includes Licensing Board proceedings).
6) Even the thought of doing this makes me feel SO powerful! I don’t know about any of you, but years ago, when I went from therapist to therapist, trying to find the ‘right’ one, (what a joke), I would feel so debilitated after each session, and far more depressed than when I first entered the therapist’s office.
Anyway, I feel that I am doing the right thing.
I easily can understand why you’d want to tape a therapy session. One former therapist taped openly, assuming her wisdom to be archival.
I don’t know what I’d say to a family member embarking on therapy. I’d likely try to remind them that therapists aren’t gurus, they have no particular life wisdom, no one can fix anyone else’s life, and at best are sounding boards or offere space to reflect on needed changes.
Yes, taping a therapy session makes sense to me. I did it with at least one therapist, with their consent. (I would advise prospective therapy clients not to use a therapist who does not consent.) I am glad to hear you have been able to confirm the legality of a client’s taping without therapist consent.
But — I hope you have your son’s consent. That seems important, since he is the client.
Just saw an article (http://www.psychotherapy.net/article/quitting-psychotherapy-practice) on psychotherapy.net in which an ex-therapist acknowledges that, because of his own experiences, he was not well-qualified to be a therapist; that many in the profession are similarly not qualified — and that training programs have a responsibility to screen applicants to weed out those that are not good candidates.
Good for him for acknowledging the problem and leaving the profession!
I’m heartened to read of a therapist questioning his and his colleague’s own mental health. However, I read little from therapists who question their own Wizard-of-Oz fakery in their practice to heal anguish and pain. I fear too many therapists believe their own publicity.
Another pretty good article (http://www.psychotherapy.net/article/multicultural-competence-psychotherapy) on psychotherapy.net. One quote (toward the end) that I particularly appreciate:
“I encourage each of us to remember that while we are all human, we are all each, in some important way, Other.”
That really resonates with me — in my experience, therapists didn’t seem to think of me as “other,” or of “other” as being legitimate. They either insisted that I was like them in ways that I was not, or if they did see a difference, it was something that they considered undesirable.
I had more a sense that my therapists couldn’t distinguish me, as a living person, from the “other” they read about in their theory books. So they did such-and-such to heal me with no real idea of the life I led. I don’t believe they had the slightest understanding of my challenges outside the highly engineered consulting room.
I teach English and one of my recent students is a nearly 60-year-old lady. She’s a psychologist with many years of experience, loving her profession. Today we had a lesson on “have got” and I asked her if she had a cat (she does have one), then I asked if her neighbour’s got a cat just to practise the expression. And she answered “yes, she’s got 6 cats” and made a gesture pointing her finger to her forehead to denote that the neighbour’s crazy. Well, for some reason I’m not surprised. Imagine I go to see a psychologist and it pops up in the conversation that I have 6 cats – the shrink thinks I’m “crazy” for that very reason and probably starts treating me a bit less seriously. Her comment doesn’t seem like a big deal but I find it quite judgemental. And in my experience it’s not at all uncommon among shrinks – they’re as quick to judge as anyone else but they seem to think their judgements more legit for the very fact of being “psychologists”. Today she also said to me she finds it hard to “switch places” somewhat as she is used to being the “wiser” one, one who sees more and gives advice, and now she’s in the position of a student. While that lady likes me and seems to respect me a great deal, i think it’d be very easy to lose her favour by mentioning some random fact about my life, such as that at one point in my flat we also had several cats… And I’m sure many more things could cause the same effect.
And I see no reason to think she’s any different professionally, one-on-one with her patients than she is in casual situations… If this is the way a very well-educated (she graduated from one of the most prestigious universities in the country) and experienced psychologist is, then I think it does say something about the profession in general. In my experience, shrinks – and I have dealt with quite a few in my life – are all quite quick to judge and rely on very simple or simplistic explanations, which involve – and it is not in a casual situation that I heard it but during a session – “strange” (expressed to me about my then-boyfriend she had been ‘treating’ for weeks or months during the couples therapy before she came to that very conclusion). I think psychologists are sadly amongst the least reflective people I know.
SLV, I’ve recently dealt with a therapist in a non-treatment setting, and this woman only reinforces my pessimistic view about the profession. She seems to create a persona for herself, talking repeatedly about her overflowing compassion and gratuitous redundant boasts about a sole achievement. When I mentioned something to threaten her apparent hoped-for reality, she sprung into moral authority stance, dispensing unsolicited life lessons. And like so many therapists, her high-handed lessons were based completely on absent data, including the assumption I welcomed her tutoring in the first place.
Of course, the wisdom her patients likely devour with a spoon is a vainglorious and obnoxious when aimed at a peer. She clearly NEEDS to play Spiritual Guide whether her subjects want it or not.
In truth, the adult therapy client IS a peer. The context camouflages the real social dynamic.
SLV – Not meaning to be rude but I have to ask why is this highly-educated woman taking English lessons? It sounds like she’s been educated (indoctrinated) in this country.
Psychotherapy is a religion, and unfortunately like too many religions you are taught to believe your dogma without question or variance or nuance. And it’s not really just religion but patriotism and many other human endeavors. I really feel most people who get into being a therapist or those who become addicted to the therapist’s couch are terribly insecure and have to have “The Answer” to the problem of the human condition. They simply can not process that there may be as many reasons for human behavior as there are individuals and individual circumstances. They also tend to box everything in because they want everyone else to be just like they are, with the exact same set of issues and problems. For whatever reasons they simply can not see that people, and life, isn’t always that way or that simplistic. This certainly isn’t to say that we can’t ever share similarities in our personalities and experiences or that we can’t ever make generalizations (as long as we recognize them as such and don’t attempt to make them absolutes). I found therapy to be not only a waste of time but an actual harm to myself that I, like other issues in my life, am taking a long time to get over. Sounds like she (as many therapists) wants to be superior to others – it’s funny how therapists tend to hyper-focus on real human foibles that tend to be their own personal struggles and flaws.
disequilibrium1, in my experience many therapists/psychologists are like the woman you described. It seems to go hand in hand with their profession – assuming the air of superiority. I believe they truly do believe they treat people just like doctors treat their patients. And if you don’t welcome their advice – well, your bad obviously, for using defence mechanisms. Not to mention it’s again your bad if you do welcome it and it leaves you damaged – then they act surprised why you had accepted something you felt wasn’t right for you. I pity logic for all the times it’s been raped and twisted by therapists.
GW, I’ve found putting people and their problems in boxes and ascribing labels and patterns to be prevalent in therapy and maybe its main problem. I’m not a therapist or a psychologist yet I don’t really label anyone “strange” or “crazy” because I believe there’s always a reason for people’s behaviour – it may not always interest me or be of my concern, but it’s surely there if we want to find out. I may say someone/something is strange when I hear about it during a casual chat with a friend over coffee and there’s no data or no need to go deeper into the subject – just a casual chat over second-hand news type-of-thing. But I find it just scary and funny at the same time that a mental health specialist – after months of alleged study and dealing with the subject in person – concludes someone is crazy or strange and that’s all. I thought the very idea of psychology and therapy was to explain the “strange” and that using words like ‘strange’ or ‘crazy’ goes against the grain. I remember I asked my former therapist why she thought my ex was strange – and she said “well, if someone is strange, we don’t know why, that’s what makes them strange” – without a shred of embarrassment, in a very nonchalant manner; this is what you get from a person claiming to get into the root causes of people’s peculiarities and predicaments. Why would I pay someone money for a few months just for them to tell me what I kind of already know and came to find out the reasons for? Apart from her concluding he was strange, there wasn’t much I got from that therapy, she told me a few months later that maybe she wasn’t experienced or intelligent enough to understand our case – and she said that not to apologise but because there simply wasn’t a way she could reconcile so many contradictory facts about our relationship and no longer knew how to disguise it. At this point she didn’t care anymore, I think, the damage was already done and she didn’t want to see me again (she openly suggested we not meet again) as I was obviously too questioning.
I’ve found therapists to be very superficial and – what struck me the most in the beginning – they totally don’t care whether things add up or not. They often throw around various explanations for particular behaviours, which, when put together, totally contradict each other and make it impossible to arrive at a comprehensive big picture. That’s why my former therapist found me so questioning – because I wanted to make sense of the bits and pieces she said. While to her it was apparently legit to just stay on the level of bits and pieces. It’s almost like it was forbidden for her to think for herself – she was angry when I didn’t want to accept her insights as they went against some facts and I wondered aloud how to make sense of it and how to reconcile them. I think most therapists don’t understand that theory is just a tool and can be helpful but it’s not the be-all and end-all of therapy – and it seems like they adjust the client’s situation to fit their theory rather than the other way round. And they don’t care whether things add up in the end or not – yeah, I agree, it is like a religion.
Oh, as to why she’s learning English, just for fun / personal reasons. I’m in Poland and I believe – after reading this page and other materials on the internet – that it’s pretty much the same everywhere when it comes to therapy, same problems, same complaints, same approaches also – after all, it’s based on the same “traditions” and they teach it everywhere around the globe, as legit science, of course.
SLV,
Oh, so much of what you say echos my experience with therapy. Some examples:
“Why would I pay someone money for a few months just for them to tell me what I kind of already know and came to find out the reasons for?” Yes, I assumed therapists were professionals, knowledgeable and able to deal with complexity and depth. But in my experience, they were not. (I say “they” because I’ve tried several.)
“I’ve found therapists to be very superficial …” Oh, yes! That is so frustrating. It seems so unprofessional. Once I said, in dismay, to a therapist, “Everything you say seems superficial!” She replied, “I’m genuine.” I was speechless at that (as I was so often in therapy in response to something that seems so superficial and/or unprofessional.)
“That’s why my former therapist found me so questioning – because I wanted to make sense of the bits and pieces she said. While to her it was apparently legit to just stay on the level of bits and pieces. It’s almost like it was forbidden for her to think for herself – she was angry when I didn’t want to accept her insights as they went against some facts and I wondered aloud how to make sense of it and how to reconcile them.” Yes, yes. I tried asking questions, because I was trying to make sense of what the therapists said. But I often got responses like, “Are you sure you’re not second-guessing me?” or “Do you realize you’re asking me to give up my control?” or “I have my reasons,” or “If you care about evidence, then you should see a cognitive therapist.” (This from a therapist who previously had said that cognitive therapists “Don’t get it.”) It was like being in a very different culture.
“I think most therapists don’t understand that theory is just a tool and can be helpful but it’s not the be-all and end-all of therapy – and it seems like they adjust the client’s situation to fit their theory rather than the other way round. And they don’t care whether things add up in the end or not – yeah, I agree, it is like a religion.” Yes, that seems consistent with my experience.
Mary, I feel too that therapists had their templates, and then convinced themselves and me that great things happened. As unfounded as it was, we could have been tossing cheese rinds in the air.
It is funny, both amusing and ironic, how irrationally hysterical therapy evangelists get when they encounter someone who found the exercise foolish. Their intolerance of individual experience makes a poor case for the religion they so cherish.
Dear all,
I’ve been reading over most of the comments and I unfortunately realized that I may be one of those people whose therapy has gone wrong. While I do acknowledge that it has taught me a lot about myself and about the others and I am grateful to my therapist for helping me in times of terrible hardship, I do feel that this experience has left me somehow scarred. I am writing to ask if any of you has found some really effective ways to cure infantilization ( I used to feel like a child whenever I went to my therapist’s, a feeling which had already been maintained by a very close relationship with my family who have always considered me kind of a beloved family pet, not really an adult). Another problem I have as a result of therapy is the tendency to ruminate negative thoughts and to be self-absorbed, unable to paricipate in whatever is going on around me. A third thing that I have noticed is oversensitivity to other peoples’s body languages and linguistic patterns, to their tendency to contradict or to repeat themselves. While this may be a good thing ( insight about people’s character), it is also very annoying, I keep having the impression that everyone around me is kind of mad, including myself. That is why I find myself unable to enter romantic relationships and even friendships. I am very self-aware now, which sometimes prevents me from making decisions or acting purposefully. My question is: has anyone found remedies to counteract these types of behaviour ?
Thank you, I wish you all the best
Anna, the bad parts of your therapy, the infantilization, the rumination, the hypersensitivity describe my therapy aftermath as well.
I haven’t found corrections or remedies for tendencies per se. (I hesitate to use the word “healing” to describe the mind and emotions, because I don’t feel emotions and processing can be clearly delineated.) However, I do find some effectiveness in replacements, such as jumping into experiences, pursuing goals, leaving my comfort zone. I still have to stop myself from habits I feel therapy instilled.
As for everyone around me being mad–yes, I see irrationality in everyone. I think that’s part of the deal. I try to be humorous about it, since, after all, I have my daft parts too.
Over the years, I’ve tried to push through my somber, analytical personality to be–I hope– more spontaneous and lighthearted. This was nothing I got from therapy, but an attempt to cultivate qualities I admired in friends.
Hi, disequilibrium1. My name is O.V. and I’m a Counselling and Family Therapy student in Auckland.
You wrote, “as I read how therapists are trained to think, attitudes toward difficult cases, and the defensiveness toward official complaints, it’s clear why therapy left me feeling worse.”
I wonder how many “professional literatures” about psychotherapy you’ve read, because most of the books you refered to were from clients’ point of view, and you only pointed at the weaknesses of one therapy model which is Person-Centered Therapy (House, Richard (2003) Therapy beyond Modernity. Deconstructing and Transcending Profession Centered Therapy. London: H. Karnac (Books) LTD.). And I think generalize all therapists/therapy models based on this one book isn’t enough to support your argument about how all therapists are trained to think. I mean, there are hundreds different therapy models that a therapist can use. Most models train therapists to be flexible and active in creating a therapeutic condition, and having genuineness and congruency in their behaviours to the client is a must. They should not just passively listen then give advice.
And I also wonder, if they’re all bad, why do so many people still need them?
Anna,
My experience has been in some ways like yours and in some ways not. I tried a lot of self-help books before trying therapy, and those seemed to increase a tendency I had for a long while toward what I call “internal self-consciousness,” and “hyper-awareness,” which seem to have a lot of overlap with the rumination, negative thoughts, self-absorption, difficulty in participating in external activities, over-awareness of others’ body language, linguistic patterns, etc. Therapy just fostered those tendencies even more – – the opposite of what I was looking for.
Like Disequilibrium, I don’t have any “remedies” (and also don’t find the term “healing” at all helpful), but I think that just keeping on trying, not giving up in the face of failures, but still not pushing myself too much, has helped, but in a very gradual way.
Hi I’m a counselling and family therapy student at NTEC!
It’s really pleased to read this post I got an idea about how bad therapy can effect person image. We never know at the first sight of the session but once we attend to the session we can understand it how it goes. For me personally it’s really rude to hear. It’s good to hear negative side also from a therapist process.
Hi My name is chamari perera, I am a student , studying counselling and family therapy in New Zealand,This is an interesting and powerful post.you have written this by your own experience and it has given me a grate support for my studies.Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.
My name is Tarsem Singh I’m a student studying Counseling & Family Therapy in Ntec Auckland NZ
When I read this article so feel that ‘the ex client have around her lots of negativity in her thinking ‘I think when she went for a counselor she got every time bad experience by her counselor and she is not psycho client but some time from her talk like a psycho patient on the other hand she have also experience of counseling she saying she gated bad therapy by therapist. And some time she saying she is society person and she disturb by humanity but some time she is talking about her problem what happening with her all thing an interesting for every therapist.
Hi, my name is Diana, I’m a student studying Counselling & Family Therapy in NZ. It was really nice reading your informative blog and I feel really sorry that you and many others had bad experiences with their counselling sessions. I admit that there are many bad therapists out there and being a student of counselling I feel sad that these experiences frame other professional “good counsellors” in this lot of Bad therapists. I feel that whenever a client has a discomfort or feels that the therapist is being judgemental in a counselling session, he or she should right away stand up and discuss about their concerns with their Counsellor.
However, I also understand that it is difficult to stand up against your therapist at that very moment but therapists should realise and take the client’s concern seriously to avoid more damage to the client’s mental and physical health.
Thanks for sharing your experience it gives me immense knowledge about how the psychotherapy is evolving.
Diana,
I am glad to see you write, “it is difficult to stand up against your therapist at that very moment but therapists should realise and take the client’s concern seriously”. Yes, it can be difficult to stand up against your therapist — I think that for many of us, learning the skill of standing up for ourselves is an important part of what we need to get out of therapy. But when we do try to stand up, and the therapist doesn’t take us seriously, it just reinforces the message that we are second class citizens — precisely the opposite of what we need.
I so agree. I have stood up to therapists and it was useless. They told me: they never said it; I misunderstood; they said it because it was the TRUTH; blah, blah. People who go into this field want power, pure and simple.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience that you have been through.
the only thing that make me puzzled was you went to visit therapist because you did not have social life ?why would you see the therapist when you did not have any other kind of issues, i feel that there was something missing which you are not presenting on this blog.However,your journey with therapists was disgraceful .
sujita
student of counselling and family therapy
new zealand
Hi I am sharon susan john, I am studing Counselling and Family therapy at New zealand… I really thank you for posting this, because of this people can know more about bad therapy… In my opinion the counsellor should be more friendly.. If a client is not happy or satisfied with the counselling session then the counsellor should not impose their therapy on the client.
Hi ! I’m Parneet Singh, I’m a student of Counselling & Family Therapy in New Zealand. I appreciate that you’ve shared your experience with us. I’m sorry for what you’ve been through. Your experience was quite shocking and it just made me realize that how bad counselling can affect a client’s life. Because of these few “bad counsellors” clients are losing their faith in counselling. But I appreciate that you still believed in consulting another counsellor and fortunately, that session benefited you. I feel that whenever a client goes for a counselling session the client should always look for warning signs to differentiate between a good and a bad therapist, and the time you feel uncomfortable you should end the sessions for your own benefit.
And once again thank you for creating this blog, I believe it would be very helpful for me in my studies.
hi, My name is Ramandeepkaur i am counselling and family therapy student in newzealand . I read the post thoroughly it is very interesting post that shows how vital the result of counselling for the person who is attending it.A therapist should pay attention o the emotions of the sufferer and try to treat him/her in different manner. This is your personal experience and this will be helpful for me in my studies thanks alot for sharing your experience.
Ramandeep,
I agree with you that “A therapist should pay attention o the emotions of the sufferer and try to treat him/her in different manner.” But paying attention to the emotions is not enough: The therapist also needs to take into account the thinking and values of the client. Indeed, one problem I had with some therapists is that they only seemed interested in feelings, not taking these other aspects of me into account.
One particular problem is that if a therapist thinks in simple terms, but the client is complex, then the therapist cannot see the client as a real person. For this and other reasons, more attention needs to be given to the problem of getting a good fit between client and therapist. It is very difficult for a client to find information about a therapist that is relevant to helping a client decide whether or not the therapist might be suitable for the particular client. So the client may need to spend a lot of time, money, and energy just trying out therapists. That is not a good system.
Hi there, I’ve read your post and feel sorry about your experiences. However I disagree with some of your comment as if therapist does not help the clients at all. In my view being a counsellor or therapist is as much as similar with a doctor. Doctor is a person who diagnose the patient, while patient needs a perfect doze to work out with his body system.
It is not fair to generalize that psychotherapy does not treat clients. There are facts that clients have been treated well or else the profession of therapy might not even exist. I do respect your bad experience that you had but it should not be taken 100% negative. Anyway I really hope that there’s no hard feeling as I am not the right person to judge anyone.
Wann
Counselling and Family Therapy student
Sorry but you sound like a bunch of naive kids.
You shouldn’t be therapists because you are clueless.
Hi Fiona, Instead of an ad hominem attack, how about addressing the issue the students have raised?
hi I’m nayomi I’m also counseling student.. I have two three ideas about this blog. one is when we feel to have a counseling session we should know why we are going to have that and also we should find suitable counselor for that. we should have clear idea about what we are going to expect from the counselor.. that is client responsible … when we are talking about counselor side he or she should welcome their client and also treat in a good way. sometimes counselor’s also can be make mistakes.. it’s depend …. but counselor’s always trying to do their best to their client…when I’m reading this blog I feel this client didn’t have clear idea about what she is going to have from the counselor that means whats her expectations.. I agree with the client what she has happened in her first counseling session.. it was very awful… but then after she had good counseling sessions with another counselor. my another idea is she didn’t have suitable reason to see the counselor.. according to her idea she had normal life before she see the counselor.. but she wanted to have more socialize that’s why she decided to see the counselor .. that means she was over expectation.. from the society and also from the counselor as well.. I agree with her first counseling session was not good.. but she couldn’t satisfy with her another counselor sessions as well.. so I’m not agree with that.. thankyou..
nayomi,
You wrote, “… when we feel to have a counseling session we should know why we are going to have that and also we should find suitable counselor for that. we should have clear idea about what we are going to expect from the counselor.. that is client responsible”
This seems very unrealistic to me. How in heaven’s name does a client find a suitable counselor for what they are going to counseling/therapy for? Although more information is available now on the web than when I tried therapy, there is still very little — for example, most therapists list what they treat in very general terms, such as “Depression and anxiety”. But, for example, there are many types of anxiety. A therapist may not have experience with all types of anxiety. Also, there is a lot of research indicating that client/therapist rapport is important. That’s not something a prospective client can tell from a website. Often it’s really not apparent in the first few sessions whether or not the therapist is on the same wavelength as the client.
I think that helping a client find a suitable therapist should be part of a therapist’s responsibility. Yes, the client needs to give some input, but therapists need to become knowledgeable about their colleague’s (as well as their own) strengths and weaknesses in order to help clients with that first, and often very difficult, step of finding a suitable therapist.
Hi I’m Karolina and I’m a student studying Counselling and Family Therapy in Auckland, New Zealand. It is sad to read about this client’s experiences when consulting therapists regarding things she has gone through in life. Though you are very creative, stylish and so figuritive in your expression, however, I seem to realise that your self worth is very low. You have loudly sing out the failures of the therapists you have approached but do you ever think about the problems you carry arround with vey high expectations of solutions from those therapists you have approached without even taking time to sit and think that the solutions you wondering around for is with you all the time..Rather than hunting around for solutions as a way of jeopodising services provided by the so -called therapists you have criticised.
On the other hand, as a counselling student, I feel that this is supposed to be a good wake up call to all in-office therapists as well as up-coming ones that clients are to be of paramount importance when in session and therapist must deliver to the best of their abilities, making sure that clients “don’t walk in with one problem and walk away with more” which can result in detrimental comparisons and criticisms of therapists as in this case.
Karolina,
You wrote (I assume to/about Disequilibrium), “Though you are very creative, stylish and so figuritive in your expression, however, I seem to realise that your self worth is very low. You have loudly sing out the failures of the therapists you have approached but do you ever think about the problems you carry arround with vey high expectations of solutions from those therapists you have approached without even taking time to sit and think that the solutions you wondering around for is with you all the time.”
This sounds rude and patronizing to me. Does it not to you? It does not sound like the impression I have gotten of Disequilibrium — there are a lot of things she has written on this blog that indeed indicate that that she has thought a lot about the problems she “carries around with her,” and that part of her problem is that she thinks about them too much– yet the therapists she tried promoted the problem behaviors she deals with.
Psychoanalyzing someone who doesn’t request it is condescending and imperceptive, traits that disqualify one as a competent counselor.
Imali
Hi, My name is Imali . I am a student , studying counseling and family therapy in NTEC College Auckland. First I want to thank for your post. I really appreciate about it, because I have learnt about different kinds of qualities that counselors to have, and also which kind of needs that clients hope from the counselors different way. As a client he/she has to find a suitable counselor that he/she wants.
As a counseling student I will be starting practicing counseling near future. According to our counseling training program we use the Partners for change Outcome Management System (PCOMS) to track each client’s progress through therapy. We also use the Out come Rating Scale (ORS) tool to measure how a client is progressing from session to session, and the session Rating Scale (SRS) tool to measure the strength of the therapeutic alliance between counselor and client.
My lecturer says ,”To date , the SRS scores that our counselors are achieving is averaging out at a score of 37/40, which is an incredible achievement, considering that these scores are client generated” furthermore he says clients are also returning for subsequent appointments off their own bat, which in an international student counseling setting, is quite remarkable to witness, as “asking for help ” in a number of cultures is considered taboo- that fact that such an environmental cultural change is occurring so quickly is further evidence of the outstanding work our student counselors are doing.
Imali,
I am glad to hear that your training program is introducing you to use the Partners for Change Outcome Management System (PCOMS) , the Outcome Rating Scale (ORS) , and the session Rating Scale (SRS) tools . My impression are that these are sincere and often very helpful attempts to improve therapy. But I hope you realize that just using these scales will not perform any magic — it’s adjusting your behavior on the basis of the ratings that will make or break the effectiveness of your professional behavior.
Best of luck in this endeavor!
I suspect PCOMS would have been of questionable help in my case. Caffeinated and aggrandized, I mostly was convinced therapy was delivering magical transformation. I collaborated beautifully with my therapists, meaning I played my role dutifully in their needs to be great healers. It wasn’t until much later that I realize I acquired no real life skills, solved no problems, made no substantial change in coping with life through therapy. It wasn’t until much later I believe I made improvements in other ways.
So I would have positively answered the simple questions about my “well-being.”
My scornful therapist team was the exception, and I doubt the inventory would have helped since I already gave them frequent feedback. Though I told them many times I didn’t find treatment helpful they invariably deflected it or interpreted as “material.” Clients only were to be disbelieved.
So while I think client feedback may help a conscientious, flexible, receptive therapist stay on task, I don’t see it as a foolproof insurance policy against self-delusion and arrogance.
Video here shows the inventory, starting at 1:34. The inventory asks clients to rate their “well being” personally, inter-personally, at work and generally.
http://www.scottdmiller.com/
From the best I can determine, this deluge Feb. 25 posts, except Fiona’s appear to be students of S. T. who teaches a New Zealand counseling program open to students 18 and older with high school credentials.
I remind you I’m a citizen who posted an opinion, and the majority of respondents who found their way here seem, like me, want to talk about the duplicity and pseudo-science they experienced in counseling. We represent no threat to your juggernaut.
This class deluge seems unthinking and disrespectful to the established discussion and culture here.
Can we then ask S. T. if my assumption is correct, and if so, what is the expectation of this exercise? (And speaking of ad hominem, several comments here are presumptuous, “clairvoyant” and hostile diagnostic cloak.)
For all the clairvoyance I don’t see the students comprehending the point of the post and subsequent discussion, which explores what for me were systemic flaws in psychotherapy including the engineered phony relationship, the objectification of people and emotions, the authoritarian/supplicant dynamic, the distorted illusion of the therapist’s real capabilities, the obsession on flaws and wounds and the questionable application of therapeutic “insight” into real life.
Though I see some merit in an outcome management system (you might write Barry Duncan and his cohorts about that one) I don’t see that as the definitive answer to harm in therapy. A damaging relationship can be an extended folie a deux, the client slipping into a role to please the therapist, with both convinced that even the most ridiculous therapy is greatly beneficial. Think how many have been bamboozled by faith healers, fortune tellers and palmists. I personally was under the grand delusion I was doing something important, mountains were moving, only to realize years later the exercise was the dust of nothing. See Yvonne Bates’ book above, Ellen Plasil’s Therapist and Debbie Nathan’s Sibyl Exposed.
S.T., if you’re the instigator, I hope you’re teaching your students about scientific method and argument. And as scientists, your students need to be as curious about negative outcome and those who report it as successes. The few questions seem hostile challenges rather than sincere investigation.
Hi there,
I’ve been following your blog since its inception, and I highlighted this blog as a an excellent resource for 1st person Consumer feedback to my class (I am teaching them about client feedback mechanisms).
I asked the students to read the entire blog, and to offer their perspective on a public platform, on which the blog is published.
What you won’t have read is the subsequent assignment I set them which was a self-reflective exercise that asked them to reflect on how reading the experiences on your blog might influence their own work with clients – and it’s fair to say that in reading their answers that the influence is marked in the positive in terms of them being mindful of privileging the clients voice, which seems to be a key component or desire of many posters to the blog.
I can find no commentary restrictions as those you mention, and I see no reason why the students can’t offer an alternative perspective from their own positions as student therapists – many of the comments they have posted are a mixture of empathy, query, and opinion (all legitimate hallmarks of free speech).
My students have flown 8 – 10 thousand kilometres to study in NZ, at enormous cost –they are some of the most sincere people I have ever met, and I deliberately directed them to your blog because it’s a rare opportunity for them to see first person commentary from real people who have had some negative experience of industry – but I under no circumstances silence dissenting opinion on the issues raised, and I have come under fire from the therapy industry myself for being so outspoken in favour of clients.
Instead of attacking them and dismissing them, why not engage with them in open debate and discussion, otherwise the “closed shop” mentality that you so accurately describe as being a hallmark of the therapy industry could well be recognised in your unwillingness to accept alternative perspectives on your blog?
To suggest deleting posts, in a forum that itself so desperately wishes to be heard by industry, strikes me as an oxymoron – however, your call I guess.
Kind Regards,
Steve
Steve, wait, you expect me…to debate? I thought I detected a whiff of combativeness in this 12- post bomb.
Free speech is a misunderstood term. At least in the US it means we won’t get jailed for criticizing the government. We still face consequences spewing at an employer or shouting from a tabletops in a restaurant. There are consequences when we bellow in a library, organize a flash mob at the art museum or ambush an ongoing discussion. But that’s a side topic.
From my viewpoint, the deluge felt a decision to “bomb” the blog. A few comments were presumptuous, feigned clairvoyance and ad hominem, an unperceptive, insensitive interruption of the ongoing discussion. As you might gather reading many of the posts, there’s a great deal to process in unraveling harmful therapy. Many of us have been hurt, or at least scammed by a so-called treatment, and this is one of the few corners of the internet where we’ve shared our decompression. I’ve squandered thousands of dollars, much time and much hope. Some of us have surrendered our judgment to undeserving authority figures or a specious cure and now feel the fool.
This blog enlarges the discussion from single bad apples to what we feel are the weaknesses of the larger system–at least for us. There’s slim literature about harmful therapy. (I’ll link to one of the scarce articles, published in a New Zealand journal.) http://www.therapyabuse.org/p2-emotional-abuse-in-therapy.htm. This blog holds plenty to read, and perhaps learn from if you’re interested in client experiences beyond debating them.
It would be gratifying if involvement in this blog did make the students better counselors. I’m sorry, but I didn’t see much understanding of it in these posts. As you said, you were setting up for debate.I’ve carefully represented my experiences and perceptions as only opinion, and I needn’t defend them. If you have on topic, respectful questions, I (or maybe someone else here) will respond as time allows. I have no official status except as one person with an opinion.
Fair enough: I’m assuming the students opinions are similarly welcome?
I’m not deleting the comments, if that’s your question, though I feel using mass blog participation as a lesson insensitive to the community and discussion here. You’re teaching your students to –debate –ex-clients who were deceived or harmed in therapy?
Steve,
I hope you will consider the comments below on some of the things you have written.
“I asked the students to read the entire blog, and to offer their perspective on a public platform, on which the blog is published.”
“offer their perspective on a public platform” does not take into account that this blog, like most blogs, is moderated by its creator. Although I can see that your instructions to your students were well-intended, I think it was rude of you not to ask Disequilibrium if it was OK with her to use her blog in this manner.
“why not engage with them in open debate and discussion” This in particular is a form of using Disequilibrium in a way you have not asked her consent for – asking her to put forth considerable effort into an assignment you have given your students, without asking in advance if she is willing to put in that effort. It is not her job to teach your students.
Moreover, it is especially inappropriate to expect someone to engage in debate with your students, when that is not the purpose of the forum the person has established.
Also, you seem not to realize that not everyone is “into” debate. Many people, including myself, consider debate to be a sport, like tennis, quite different from discussion.
I hope that you will apologize to Disequilibrium for your thoughtlessness in using her blog, without her consent, in a way that requires her to go to considerable effort. That would set a good example for your students, an example of taking responsibility for one’s mistakes.
I’m teaching my students to learn from client feedback, and to think for themselves, and not to be indoctrinated – by any narrative.
Then I suggest rather than unfriendly interaction with an ex-client, you look to the excellent writings and videos of Professor Scott Lilienfeld, who teaches that very subject, quite directly.
That sounds rather invalidating Steve because the abused client isn’t putting forth a story – Your use of the word “narrative” that suggests they may have misinterpreted the abuse.Are you suggesting (trainee) therapists should doubt the validity of a clients account of a damaging therapy experience?
Hi Fiona, define validity: a self-referential guide, as you would have learnt from the “bad therapy” exponents, is a dangerous one – and clients can be as misleadingly self-referential as therapists can be.
Steve, once again you have no comprehensive of Fiona’s post, yet persist in flaunting your impercipience.
Your combativeness here is a lesson to your students in how to be an ATROCIOUSLY HARMFUL therapist. You don’t begin to understand the conversation, you don’t listen, you’re not respectful and your only agenda seems to be winning some undefined competition that benefits no one.
I offered you the courtesy of discussing your class bombing privately, but you didn’t want that.
You have turned into a full-fledged troll.
Your comments are no longer welcome. (Steve will now return to his class and spin this episode to save face.)
Its extremely hard to maintain our ‘objectivity’. Most of us end up being “self referential” and polarized due to the shocking invalidation & arrogance we encounter when making our complaints. Funnily enough.
Fiona, I completely agree with you. I thought Steve’s rejoinder was gibberish. Therapy clients don’t owe anyone justification for their choices and are at will to leave “treatment” for any reason. It adds to the disrespect I have for the therapy industry that practitioners seem so incurious about client harm.
Dis, thank you for your answer.Unfortunately, going out of my comfort zone and taking risks is one of the things I can no longer do. I wasn’t much of a risk taker before going to therapy, but I think that this experience has made me even more anxious and more cautious since now I tend to believe that something is wrong with the others, therefore I am no longer willing to engage in relationships as I used to do, as I feel I am too sensitive and easily hurt.
Anyway, thank you for the blog. Since I discovered it, whenever I feel down, I read over the comments and they remind me that this is perhaps not the real me, but just a different persona who happens to be around for a while, as a result of therapy. This makes me feel better. I hope that one day I will able to come back to a more serene self.
Anna, I identify with a great deal of what you’re saying and I’m mild mannered and head-first, anything but an emotional King Kong. I’ve had a long ongoing process discarding therapy-think. Therapy also left me hyper sensitive which makes relationships more difficult.
I feel therapy taught me to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-sensitive, hyper-wounded. It’s an ongoing project, a habit I try to break. Therapy was supposed to be a tool to help me, and if it’s a bad tool I can choose not to use it.
My efforts to re-emerge have included reading, conversations…and simply living. Again, I’m no skydiver, outward bound type. But along the way, I’ve needed to protect myself, loved ones, things I’ve wanted to accomplish, and this call to action has left me stronger. I’m stronger by accumulating my own competence. I’ve gradually realized my opinions, my perception of an experience are as valid as anyone’s.
I agree something is wrong with people, including myself. I believe we’re all filled with fears, self-doubts, blind spots, protections and aggressions. This realization can flip to be a strength–knowing the ground rules, knowing good people can in circumstances fail us, so we might interact without completely surrendering judgment. Watching human foibles can be ironic and humorous.
I do this sunny optimistic thing that negatives can switch to positives if I can looking for it. I think it does get better. I actually learned more being duped in bad therapy than I ever might have otherwise.
It can get better.
disequilibrium1; your empathy, your respect, moves me to tears, it is truly humbling, the irony, imo is you’d make a great therapist, some of these same qualities i witness in how you support people here and created this platform, are which is why you are not a therapist – if that makes any sense what-so-ever!! **************** and as an ex-client of bad therapy, a trainee psychotherapist, and qualitative researcher who espouses positivism, i cannot even begin to express my views on these student/tutor posts – other than i don’t feel comfortable with turning the ‘subject’ into an ‘object’ of inquiry, even for the benefit of learning…. as for debate… no, my negative experiences of being re-traumatised in a reductive psychoanalytic psychotherapy, (i know i have not shared my experience), but i can say if i ever did, they are definitely not up for debate, i wouldn’t be looking for that… reflection maybe, if i trust you enough… from my heart, that’s all i can say… xxx
I don’t see the point of this blog as “consumer feedback to the industry.” I see this blog as a unique effort to empower people to “just say no” to what has become a very powerful industry without having to justify that stance or to debate the pros and cons that may or may not exist within the industry. Such a debate has credence from within the industry, but for those of us who (for whatever our reason) are ready to claim our “just say no” independence this includes saying no to the debate itself. We, for ourselves, and not as industry witch hunters don’t want to be hooked back into the socially accepted influence and manipulation we believe is (and has been) personally harmful. It’s not about one or two “bad apples,” but about systemic flaws that lead to the tragedies many of us have experienced and I see this blog as support for personal empowerment more than debate. And am deeply grateful for what it’s meant to me.
Pam, I agree, thanks to the responses here, I think this blog has evolved into an examination of foundational assumptions about therapy and how that has disserved us personally. We certainly owe no one justification or debate for personal choices, and it’s revealing that anyone seems to experience us that way.
The psychotherapy industry sometimes seems to engender such devote obedience, that submitting to it equates to moral servitude. And here are a few consumers exploring that not only did therapy fail to cleanse our souls, it outright swindled us. It’s amusing that a few people’s opinions–out of the vast ocean of therapy evangelists on the internet –would stir anyone’s discomfort. I can count psych-skeptic websites on a few fingers.
We each have our own definition of emotional health of course. But mine includes a tolerance for individual differences. That therapy boosters experience this page as a call for battle only reinforces my personal opinion that the treatment fails to deliver the promised insight.
Only in retrospect do I understand my own gullibility, believing that I had some duty to submit to therapy, or that this child-like submission would heal me, whatever that means. The power paradoxically came in saying–no.
(Pardoned my delayed direct response to your lovely post.)
Yes, a platform for personal empowerment… why should people who come here, enter into a debate about their experiences or more to the point, enter into a debate about why psychotherapists and counsellors are so quick to blame clients when ‘things go wrong’ – asking them to give more back to the industry – and then wonder why they get a No!
So warmed by your comments. I’m scarce, big busy day, but perhaps I’ll muse more when I have time. However I thought Steve behaved very much like the harmful therapist I had, demanding some kind of justification, making my life and choices a negotiation he now was involved in, twisting conversation into gibberish and turning what should have been a quiet exchange into combat. My worst therapists were trolls too, sans internet.
I told him I didn’t feel the post put the students or school in a good light and proposed to delete them as an idea that seemed good at the time.
I think it revealing that some members of the psych industry appear so threatened by this page as if EVERYONE universally must embrace therapy. I think there’s a real power dynamic at play. My allergist handed me a sheet the first day stating treatment didn’t always work and to be alert to specific side effects.
Kelly, Pam, again, I’m so appreciative of your post New Zealand-bomb comments.
There were so many aspects of the New Zealand posts of Feb. 24-26 appear to me to be poor training of not only future counselors, but of any student or young citizen.
First it appears the teacher imparts a philosophy that “freedom of speech” means saying anything you please, wherever, you please with impunity. This is a complete misunderstanding of the concept.
Secondly, the class posts showed no non-combative curiosity or insight into our 4-plus year discussion. Asserting and challenging with no with interest in learning is counter to counseling technique.
Finally, the teacher responded antagonistically when I told him that trying to exploit this blog for challenge and debate was a misstep. Instead of considering or admitting a mistake he escalated hostilely with a community member and me. I assumed this teacher might have wanted to save face in front of his class, which is why I allowed him the opportunity to do that privately.
I feel this “lesson” was a destructive example for counseling candidates who I hope would be learning inquiry, empathy, respect, humility and of course, listening.
So, this is a mutual admiration society for disgruntled ex-clients, and no engagement with any other opinion, save for the blog moderator, will be tolerated. If you are going to run an online cult, then perhaps you need to advise readers, prior to them posting on a public forum? It’s just laughable that the very “engagement” and “understanding” that you pretend to clamour for, is so absent in your own position.
Save face? I BOUGHT this discussion into the public forum – you are the one trying to shut it down – the students are reading everything you and I post – what they are learning about clients as a result, is something I could never have taught them, unless they had seen it with their own eyes.
Disgruntled? No, more like entitled.
Steve, please, show these posts to your fellow faculty, administration and professional colleagues. Disseminate your lesson far and wide. Clearly you’re very proud.
Hi Steve,
Do you really want me to debate the comments your students posted? I will surely go through their points one by one. Not least this idea that client’s ought to know what they are looking for before they arrive, really? Client’s often turn up with a vague notion of what they might be looking for, or are in crisis, they don’t have clear ‘goals’ and why ‘should’ they. Secondly the idea that therapist’s always have their client’s best interest at heart. At best, this is an ideal, but it really is naive and simply unfounded. Please ask your students to email me at k.dickson@ioe.ac.uk if they would like to discuss these and other points individually. I will let them know what my daily rate is. I don’t remember anyone agreeing that this site could be used as a learning platform for your post-grad in counselling and psychotherapy.
Steve I had written a thorough response to your statements but my laptop is screwed up. On this, my friend’s, I will tell you: I am a lawyer, and for 10 years was the attorney to several state licensing boards in Illinois which disciplined doctors, therapists, counselors, psychologists. Etc. This is very important: THE ONLY TIME A PROFESSIONAL WHO DOES ANY TYPE OF ‘THERAPY’ IS DISCIPLINED IS WHEN THEY SLEEP WITH HIS OR HER CURRENT OR PAST CLIENT. That is how it is. Also you haven’t seemed to read this blog at all. I have written this many times already.
Hi Resharpen: it seems you have found what I have observed: that the primary role of a professional association is to protect its own members.
The problem is the professional bodies need proof .They need stuff written down emails,letters texts, they need black and white – if they don’t have these the complaint will not be upheld.
I have been to several psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists who were (in hindsight) mentally deranged – I advise people to never ever seek succor from someone who is being paid to care about you.
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@ Steve the therapist trainer do you teach your students about this erotic transference malarky and what is this weird phenomenon where female clients try to seduce the therapist wearing sexual clothing etc
I use my own name, don’t hide behind a pseudonym , and have always stood publically for my positions, which more often than not have been against the very people (and those who represent them) who you say have hurt you. Why not publish the link I sent you privately – tell the whole story, rather than the one you are simply trying to portray?
My students are adults – they are quite capable of both making their own minds up, and of calling me to account if they feel they need to – they don’t need my permission.
How about you publish under your own name, and display the same open and transparent position you are asking of me (which, by default of this engagement being on a public forum, has already been achieved).
You seem to assume that I am part of the “monolith” – look up the word “iconoclast”, and re-read the link I sent you.
Playing the victim….
There are layers of accountability because we all have personal agency.
Some of the women turning up for ‘therapy’ with my ex therapist were dressed up in very sexualized ways with shorts skirts, low cut tops etc and I did think (I’m being honest) they should know better.
That might sound very hypocritical in light of my criticism of the Red Flags book….but I did/do think I’m more of a legitimate victim than them because I didn’t deliberately try to entice him.
Steve,
Are you aware that many people attach a stigma to people who have had therapy? It is only reasonable that people talking about their experiences with therapy use a pseudonym. We have this choice, for the same reason that therapists are bound to respect the confidentiality of what their clients tell them.
If I comment on a professional blog (i.e., one for my own profession), I use my name, not a pseudonym. But I have no objection to people using a pseudonym or just “anonymous” on such a blog — especially for younger people, or people new to the blog, I can understand this.
You have the choice to give your name or use a pseudonym. I have the same choice.
Steve,
You said in response to Disequilibrium,
“How about you publish under your own name, and display the same open and transparent position you are asking of me (which, by default of this engagement being on a public forum, has already been achieved).”
Your position has been transparent only in the sense that you have used your own name. But it has not been transparent in the sense of making your intentions clear before the fact. In particular, you did not reveal your intentions of having your students comment on this blog before the fact.
I personally don’t care whether or not someone uses their real name (unless, of course, they use someone else’s), but I do care about making intentions clear in advance (not after the fact). That is one of my main complaints about therapy: The lack of transparency of the therapists’ intentions. So in not being transparent before the fact, you are behaving like a non-trustworthy therapist.
Also, your frequent request to us to back up our skeptical view of effectiveness research is in contrast to your unwillingness to back up your view with details – you just refer to books. In other words, you, like so many therapists, do not set a good example. I have looked at the video you linked, and you do come across as sincere in your effort to improve therapy. At the same time, on this blog you have behaved like a poor therapist, the kind that does harm. So, yes – to me you do seem to be part of the “monolith,” as you put it.
PS A possibly relevant quote from the review of Wampold’s book that I mentioned:
“I believe in trying to be fair to others and to respect their perspectives when they differ from mine. This is often difficult, and I’m not always successful at it, but that doesn’t dissuade me from trying. In particular, I am not entirely comfortable criticizing other people, but believe that sometimes it is the lesser of two evils. This is the case in some places in this commentary. I will try to present my criticisms in as kind and respectful a manner as I can, but am aware that I am sometimes clumsy at doing so. I hope my comments do not sound like a rant, and apologize in advance if they do. I ask the reader to please try to be tolerant of any clumsiness I may exhibit in my attempts to be kind and respectful.
Related to this is my perception that I seem to have a tendency to be iconoclastic in some ways. Thus, I offer the caution that what I say might have the effect of shattering some of the reader’s idols. I apologize if this causes pain; I do it not to cause pain, but to try to do my small part to make the world a little bit of a better place. I realize I am taking the risk of causing pain; I hope that it is not too much.
I am writing this commentary on Wampold’s book from the perspective of a psychotherapy client who has had more negative than positive experiences with psychotherapy. I recognize that many people have had positive experiences, and I am certainly not opposed to psychotherapy per se. However, I think it is important to remember that some of us have had counterproductive experiences with therapy, and that our experiences and perspectives are important in trying to understand the field and improve it so that it is more effective with more people, and with fewer negative side effects.”
Yes, the amusing irony of the criticism is that psychotherapy itself is so inscrutable and asymmetrical. The client does the emotional disrobing, while the therapist plays riddle sphinx. Treatment is behind closed doors. Often the client has no understanding of the direction of the treatment or the risks, or the rationale behind his provider’s decisions.
That a psych practitioner would use this forum to debate our members only testifies why I find his profession so dubious.
Kapow! Crunch! Smack! Zap! Wham! Bam! Sock! Whack!
Keep punching Steve.
Keep playing the victim, whatever-your-name-is.
She was in fact a victim of therapy, not playing. What do you think about people who use victim-blaming language in other scenarios, e.g., people who would say that a person who has been abused/bullied/raped/harmed is “playing the victim”? And what would say about other people who attack those who choose to protect their privacy with respect to sensitive or personal subject matters?
Disequilibrium1 has created a supportive community for people who have been harmed by therapy, who have conned by therapy, or who challenge the validity of its framework and power dynamics, and its role and impact in our society. The burden of proof is on the industry and those who make positive claims that it has the ability to help to show that it is safe and effective, and that it does not utilize frameworks and interpersonal dynamics that are harmful. The burden of proof is *not* on people who have been harmed by the industry to justify themselves. That would be like having a religious person who believes in god/allah/flying spaghetti monster join a secular website, or a website for people who have been harmed by religious cults, and demanding that they engage with religion and show that god doesn’t exist. The burden of proof is on whomever is making a positive claim (and especially on those who make health claims and attempt to collect money for it).
I wasn’t attacking anyone for protecting their privacy: I was simply pointing out the uneven playing field: which seems to be a core theme on this blog vis a vis Counsellor / Client.
You’re complaining about an uneven playing field due to one party being more hidden and one party more exposed on a blog?!!! And a blog that doesn’t sell anything, or make any health claims or money based on that, and that allows everyone *equally* to use a pseudonym to protect privacy? Oh the irony!
And for the record, while you have revealed your name, disequilibrium1 has revealed far more about her personal thoughts, feelings, and experiences than you have. While I know your name and not hers, I know much more about her than you from reading this blog. If you want to start evening the playing field, tell me about a time when you’ve been hurt, and your process of recovery, and how it made you feel.
Steve: I was simply pointing out the uneven playing field.
Disequilibrium1 (Takes a puff on pipe and strokes chin): Hmmmm. So Steve, do you experience your life as a series of playing fields? Do you experience every discussion as a competition? Is everyone with a disparate opinion a threat to you? Why do you think that is? What would happen if you dropped your combat stance and let yourself be vulnerable?
Discussant: The burden of proof is on whoever makes the claim, be it positive or negative. However, we didn’t visit this blog to “prove” anything. There is plenty of evidence that therapy is effective, but since models of therapy only account for 1% of client outcome, its not the methods, that matter – its the therapist, and frankly, some therapists are just crap at doing therapy, and yes, some do great harm – I’ve often had to clean up after them, and worryingly, most of the time, it’s a Psychotherapist that has done the damage.
I say worryingly, because in NZ, Psychotherapists have recently become registered, and are perceived (by themselves at least) as being more competent than Counsellors or other therapists, when there is no evidence anywhere in the world that supports this contention.
I am a strong advocate for safe and effective therapy, and my premise is that any therapist in practice should be rated for their effectiveness – by the client.
Not surprisingly, there is plenty of literature that addresses therapists reluctance to be performance measured.
It was (I think) William Rollnick (of Motivational Interviewing) who stated:
“It is easier to get a urine sample from a crack addict, then it is to get a practice sample from a therapist”.
And Bill would be correct in his assessment.
I’m not here to debate, but I will question your certitude about philosophical burden of proof.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
Please see “null hypothesis” and “Russell’s teapot” and “shifting the burden of proof.”
“there is plenty of evidence that therapy is effective, but since models of therapy only account for 1% of client outcome, its not the methods, that matter – its the therapist, and frankly, some therapists are just crap at doing therapy, and yes, some do great harm”
Where is the evidence? Please post a link to a systematic review that critically appraises the evidence identifying the process mechanism that lead to psychotherapy effectiveness. Other than SR’s on CBT i have yet to come across this evidence base. And there is yet to be qualitative synthesis of people’s views on the experience of being in psychotherapy. But as this now a learning platform, please do post this evidence. I will be more than happy to read it and be enlightened.
Thanks
Kelly
Steve said “There is plenty of evidence that therapy is effective.”
“Effective” is pretty fuzzy word. I agree that there is evidence that therapy is effective (according to some criterion of effectiveness) *some* of the time. But the question is: How often, and for what types of problems, and what types of people? If you search this site, you will find some summaries I made of a fairly recent article on effectiveness of therapy. The overall impression is not exactly spectacular. (I won’t give the exact reference in this comment, since this site is very slow on my computer set-up, but after I post this comment will try to find it and, if it’s not too late by then, post a pointer to it in this part of the thread.)
Steve,
I found it. The paper is:
D.R. Kraus et al, Therapist effectiveness: Implications for accountability and patient care, Psychotherapy Research, May 2011, 21, (3): 267-276.
The discussion of it which I gave on this blog was on March 9, 2014 at 9:57 pm.
I hope you will read my discussion/summary (or, if you don’t trust me, find the paper yourself and read it.) It indicates that effectiveness rates of psychotherapy are pretty low.
There are only a few stories we tell ourselves most of are conditioned to follow the happy ending plot,that explains why people feel therapy is effective and worthwhile – from childhood we learn that when we tell the truth we are told to shut up dont be nasty generally people recoil at negativity-no one wants to hear the story that ended in discomfiture frustration and damage do they…
Hi Mary S: have you reviewed the thousands of study outcomes in the 5 volumes of texts I have posted to this site? How does Kraus stand in relation to those?
Most existing psychotherapy studies are so poorly designed and riddled with shady research practices (e.g., too small sample sizes, hiding data that didn’t show the desired outcome, the file-drawer effect, publication bias, selection bias, confirmation bias, allegiance effects, demand characteristics, Hawthorne effects, inadequate blinding, failure to use active controls that control for expectations, etc.) that they don’t rule out the placebo effect. In the very few psychotherapy studies that have used valid methods with active controls, psychotherapy fails to beat placebo.
Additionally, most psychotherapy studies have failed to comply with due diligence in tracking the harmful side-effects, and thus fail to meet minimum ethical standards for utilization on the public.
See some of the articles here, for instance: http://www.trytherapyfree.wordpress.com/links
Hi Mary, you may as well apply your summary to all research: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/
Fiona, astute point that we’re “conditioned for happy endings.” Consider additional factors such as 1) we see therapists at vulnerable, distressed times in our lives. 2) traditionally, the client often goes to therapy for an “expert’s” narrative and interpretation 3) we presume the therapist’s authority and expertise, earned or not. We’re highly likely to collaborate on a story to gratify the therapist.
This review is from: Erotic Transference and Countertransference (Clinical Practice in Psychotherapy) (Paperback) David Mann
Although at times it read a bit beyond me as a layperson, it did give me much insight into my subconscious motivations and drives that lead me to experience a very vivid and extreme episode of erotic transference. The experience was intense and although very painful, the gains were great. Thanks to the author(s) for the help.
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I found this review on Amazon and it made me shudder.
No pain no gain…give me a break ,its tragic not to mention the guy who wrote this book is totally obsessed by erotic transference its all he writes about and some of it sounds very creepy.
In response to Steve’s post, “Hi Mary S: have you reviewed the thousands of study outcomes in the 5 volumes of texts I have posted to this site? How does Kraus stand in relation to those?”
No, I haven’t reviewed them all. Have you? If you send me references to one you think is particularly good, I’ll try taking a look at it.
Steve,
I’m not quite clear on what you were trying to say in your comment, “Hi Mary, you may as well apply your summary to all research: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/” Since there is a limit to indents on this blog, it is helpful to give some sort of reference to what a comment is in response to. Were you referring to my discussion/summary of the Kraus et al paper on therapist effectiveness?
In any event: I am well aware of the Ioannidis paper you linked to; there is a whole literature that has sprung up around this idea (not just restricted to psychotherapy or to medicine) since then. The implication of this literature is not that “everything” is false, but that results need to be scrutinized case by case. That’s why I don’t read just abstracts of papers, or rely on summaries in books; I read the whole research paper and evaluate it on its merits. This particular paper seemed to be much better in the quality of its science than most I have read.
So I will reiterate what I said in my post March 2 at 12:04 pm: If you send me a reference to a paper that you think is particularly high quality that backs your claim that therapy is effective, I will try to find the time to read it and report back on it.
A couple of links from Discussant’s page:
http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html
(Why people believe fortune tellers, tarot readers, etc.)
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work/
(Why bogus therapies seem to work.)
A related link on gullibility
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-3.4/valhouli.html
First post here. I read the article, and have been slowly working thru the comments. Many thanks to all who have contributed. I have found much here that has helped me feel less alone and less confused about my own very painful therapy experience. Many great insights and articulate accounts. My own experience was traumatic on many levels, ended badly, and i have not been the same since.
What I have come to realize is that both I and my therapist were victims in a way, of a process and a belief system. The whole thing was like a trap that caught us both, and we both came away wounded, though fairly certain her wounds are superficial while mine are deeper than deep.
And fact is she had the responsibility to contain the relationship and protect me as I became more and more vulnerable and exposed. She failed to do that, I am left to pick up the pieces. My only recourse is to try other therapists, and that has begun to feel like an exercise in futility, as many of them seem to have a working assumption that my lack of understanding is the main issue, and that with a little help I will learn the right way to process all this.
I do think this forum could use some balance, and I will say that my own experience did include some deeply encouraging connection with my therapist, and I do feel gratitude for what she gave. But there is no escaping the bottom line — more traumatized, not less.
Adam, welcome. I’m gratified to learn this forum has provided some break in the isolation. I also found comfort from a long-established web community for those who have been harmed in therapy, and they have volunteers who will correspond.
http://www.therapyabuse.org/
Like you, I felt that therapy was a folie a deux, a symbiosis where the therapist needed to play the powerful healer role and I needed a shaman. I feel hoodwinked that a service promising me more authenticity sold me illusion and delusion.
I’m glad you got some benefit from therapy. My therapy was like a temporary caffeine high. The benefits I ultimately received were paradoxical, my realization there are no shamans, I own the narrative of my own life and no one else has jurisdiction over me.
This forum grew from a sole essay I wrote in 2009, so I’m an accidental moderator. I like Discussant’s recent summary : “a supportive community for people who have been harmed by therapy, who have conned by therapy, or who challenge the validity of its framework and power dynamics, and its role and impact in our society.”
Since all but a small handful of the media content, university departments, businesses, books and websites are devoted to the unquestioned admiration of therapy, I’m comfortable with one small platform for agnostics, atheists and skeptics.
disequilibrium1, thanks. Your essay above is thought provoking and well written. My experience was not so bad i guess compared to yours and some others. But for sure I came away harmed and subsequent attempts with other therapists either did nothing to ease the pain, or in some cases worsened it.
Thanks, I know about TELL.
Actually, I’m not sure I benefitted in any concrete way. It could be a catalyst for some level of healing in the future, but that is speculative and for now I am living with many painful wounds and with no clear path to work thru it.
Also while I did say more balance here would help, to be fair this is not a general therapy forum, it is specifically for people to engage with others who have problems or wish to raise questions, which as you say is hard to come by.
Hi Adam, I have general question: in NZ, we have the Office of the Health & Disability Commissioner that is able to receive complaints about a wide range of Health Professionals, including therapists. There are also a number of voluntary-to-join professional associations to which a client can make a complaint to. My question relates to these types of associations:
How many clients on this forum have made complaints against the therapists who hurt them, and what was the outcome of the complaint?
Actually, I’ve just thought of another question: what was the “type” of therapist that did the hurting? Counsellor, Psychotherapist, Psychologist, Alcohol & Drug Worker, Psychiatrist, or Other?
In response to Steve’s questions, (1)“How many clients on this forum have made complaints against the therapists who hurt them, and what was the outcome of the complaint?” and (2) “what was the “type” of therapist that did the hurting? Counsellor, Psychotherapist, Psychologist, Alcohol & Drug Worker, Psychiatrist, or Other?”:
1. I did try to make a complaint against one of the therapists I tried. She was a psychiatrist. It was difficult to find information about how to make the complaint (this was pre-web), but I managed somehow to find some state agency (perhaps the medical licensing agency?) that said they took complaints against MD’s for things like rudeness. Since this psychiatrist had laughed at me at some egregiously inappropriate times, I tried filing a complaint. I got a polite letter back saying that the complaint needed to go to the County branch of the American Medical Association (AMA). But when I contacted them, they said that my psychiatrist was not a member of the county branch. So I tried the state agency again, explaining the situation. The person who answered my mail was quite kind, saying she would try submitting it anyhow. But eventually I got a letter saying it was out of their jurisdiction.
2. I mostly tried psychologists, but did try two psychiatrists and one counselor. I only went to one session with the counselor and the first psychiatrist I tried (the other psychiatrist was the one I tried filing the complaint about.) The reason I didn’t go back to the counselor: I had asked her not to do something that I had a problem with (it was a boundary thing); a while later she did it. I assumed she had just forgotten what I had requested, and so reminded her politely. She said she had done it deliberately. I was flabbergasted. I sat in my car for several minutes trying to calm myself down after I left her office, then drove to a friend’s house to ask him what he thought of her behavior and my tentative decision not to go back. He said very strongly that someone who played that kind of game was someone I shouldn’t go back to.
“What I have come to realize is that both I and my therapist were victims in a way, of a process and a belief system. The whole thing was like a trap that caught us both, and we both came away wounded, though fairly certain her wounds are superficial while mine are deeper than deep”
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Thats a really good way of framing it Adam.
I was victimized by my therapist – I walked away deeply damaged because he had deliberately engendered a phony romantic transference acting out a farce of loving and caring…but at least I maintained my feminine dignity by refusing to wear micro mini skirts and not flopping my mammary glands out for him like the other desperados were doing.
Having said that I do feel sorry for them…they must have felt dreadfully embarrassed when they realized what he was up to.
Hi Steve, i have not pursued filing a complaint. Has crossed my mind, but in my case there were no egregious violations. It was just a long series of subtle missteps that added up to something huge. So i assumed any sort of investigation would find no obvious fault.
And that, actually, is part of what is so damaging about all this for me — without any blatant misconduct it is very easy for people (subsequent therapists, family) to dismiss the whole thing, which creates more distress and self doubt.
I also do not necessarily want to get her in trouble, actually would like to reconcile directly with her, but that appears unlikely.
My therapist was a Psychotherapist.
Adam, at worst I dealt with a team of bullies who didn’t want me to leave. The rest would have been considered ethical by the profession. The paternalism, rumination and artificiality was extremely poor for me.
I eventually started to use my therapy experiences paradoxically, realizing the hoax of it and my case and understanding how I was fooled. It was very painful to admit I was that gullible, but still preferable to how therapists treated me and defined me.
As vacuous and my therapy and therapists were for me, time and experience have been great teachers. The therapy that deluded me that mountains were moving was a whole lot of nothing. Therapy games were no substitute for learning to live my life.
disequilibrium1, definitely sounds like you dealt with more blatant misconduct. I understand what you mean bout learning to live your life. But people can get into situations where they are largely unable to live their lives due to illness, emotional problems, loss and grief, etc. And need someone to turn to, even given the artificiaity of therapy.
That was and is my situation. And I have heard of people who *did* find healing in therapy, so i am continuing to pursue it, though with fading sense of trust and hope.
Adam, I know what you mean by feeling stuck. Life’s demands can get overwhelming, as well as all the other things you mentioned. I have a mildish progressive disorder which affects my energy level, and I’ve searched for years for even some relief.
For me, whatever happened in therapy only bounced back to conditions outside it. As many, I’ve found my own mood lighteners, yoga, creative work, even studied voice, though yes, it takes energy to push forward even with those things. A fellow slug–which I certainly can be–told me she tried to do at least one thing every day to move forward even if it’s cleaning her medicine cabinet.
It sounds like you’re now in therapy with a larger awareness of the risks. I hope you feel better, however you get there.
Hi Kelly, these links provide a useful literature review of the effectiveness of therapy, and correspondingly, what is not (or less) effective:
In response to Steve’s posting several books that discuss therapy effectiveness:
Bergin and Garfield: I have not read it; when I considered buying it, it was very expensive.
Psychotherapy Relationships that Work: Yes, I read it – possibly an earlier edition with more authors?
Wampold: Yes, I read it – I think the first edition (2001?) – and wrote an 18 page review (about ten years ago?) which I sent to a few people, including Wampold.
Heart and Soul of Change: I’m not sure if I read this one, but I have read two or three of the books by Duncan, Miller, and coauthors. In my view, the best was the first one I read: Psychotherapy with “Impossible” Cases: The Efficient Treatment of Therapy Veterans, by Duncan, Hubble, and Miller (1997). The ones since then (that I’ve read) have had a slightly snarky tone that didn’t seem to be in the earlier one.
The literature reviews are limited, as unfortunately they lack transparent/comprehensive critical appraisal, shame as it wouldn’t take that much to introduce some rigour into their work, but alas it is missing. I am keeping my on eye on mental elf, NICE/SCIE, cochrane and other systematic reviews for evidence on how process leads to change. So far they are still focusing on symptomalogy, which makes sense considering the historical lack of EBP there actually is in psychotherapy… Kelly
• Steve (and his students): I am issuing my remarks to you, Steve, and your students. First of all, thank you for showing your students our blog. I agree that it is good that they are exposed to all opinions re: the worth of therapy. For the record, as far as only I am concerned, I am NOT against all therapy and therapists. I have had some friends helped by therapists. However, my experiences have been the opposite.
• To begin, I take opposition to much that you and your students have said here. I should start out saying, that you & students are from a culture different than the rest of us on this blog. As far as I am aware (and Disequilibrium can correct me, if need be), most of us who comment here are from the USA, and many are from Europe. My ex was a cultural anthropologist, and from the get go, people from different cultures are Different from each –the words they use, their assumptions re: how people should behave, or are behaving, etc. I have never been to New Zealand, so am unfamiliar as to our differences, but we must acknowledge that they exist, if even to a limited extent.
• Also, and I feel I MUST point this out, I unfortunately, could not really understand some of your students’ remarks. Are they going to be doing therapy where they speak English to their clients?? If so, I think they should be observed first to see if they can be understood. I feel funny telling you this; I myself have parents who came to the US from Europe, was raised in a language that was NOT English, and didn’t even learn English until kindergarten. I just think it is crucial that clients comprehend what their therapists say.
• With that said, I understand Fiona’s point. Your students are 18 years old (correct?). They are young, and to no fault of their own, just haven’t had much life experience. Have any of them ever even been in therapy??? It doesn’t seem likely, as so many of their remarks concern something they have studied or perhaps heard in their classes. I do respect their remarks, even so, but must explain how I feel about therapy. And I will address some of their remarks here.
• One student said that we must look at the ‘training model ‘that a therapist uses. If only it were that easy. First of all, just because someone was ‘trained’ in a certain method does Not guarantee that he or she will Use that method. And, Many of the remarks I will be making in my comment here, I have made in the past on this blog, including the following – that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT ‘TRAINING MODE ‘ a therapist uses. And the following also does NOT matter:
• How much a therapist charges:
2. What degree(s) he/she has;
3. How many years he/she has been practicing;
4. What theories he/she uses or doesn’t;
5. What schools/universities he/she attended;
6. The fact that there are ‘no good proven’ theories;
7. The fact that there are TOO many theories;
8. The fact that the therapist him/herself went thru therapy;
8. The fact that . .. (Fill in the blanks here).
• WHAT Matters:
If the therapist is a decent person, with a lot of common sense, who RESPECTS the client and shows it, actually listens, doesn’t USE the client for the therapist’s own purposes, isn’t on a power trip, and doesn’t say awful things to the client, and SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY, helps the client.
• Any therapist can use ‘any’ training model and be a horrible therapist. This is because MANY BECOME THERAPISTS FOR VERY WRONG REASONS, including the following:
o they have a ‘belief’ or “philosophy of life” that they feel a Huge Compulsion to ‘announce to the world’ because ‘it runs their life’ or they feel it has ‘saved’ them from a ‘terrible existence’(just life a cult leader). In my own experience, I had a woman therapist who had been married for decades, and hated men. (her husband had had affairs). She generalized her experiences to “ALL MEN. . . “ are: basic animals, ungrateful primates, absolutely selfish creatures, and HATE Women. I fought with her, saying that I believed men vary from each other, but she never listened, just replied to me in an ugly voice “That’s JUST HOW MEN ARE.” This experience I will also use to address one of the student’s comments that: a client must immediately ‘discuss their concerns with their therapist’. Hon, if you read this blog, you would know, right away, that MOST of us did just that – but IT DID NOT MATTER. The therapist never really listened to us. At minimum, the therapist should have gone off and objectively thought about what we had said, but never even did that. The therapist, 98% of the time, just looked down at us, because they KNEW THEY WERE SUPERIOR TO THEIR CLIENTS, and ‘announced’ the TRUTH, like they were G-d.
• Another reason many become therapists: 2) Many are angry people who can take their anger out on their clients easily – clients are vulnerable, and desperately want help, and won’t fight back. My first therapist had a full-blown borderline personality disorder; anger seeped from her continually; she totally lacked compassion for me. When a boyfriend treated ME badly, she blamed his behavior on me – only way she could get out her immense anger at the world, which was her primary reason of doing therapy. Any concern for the client, or good treatment for the client was VERY secondary. When I told her I had to terminate treatment, she cried and cried begging me not to go, whimpering: “Everyone leaves me, and now you are leaving me too”. A second later, she was screaming at me, saying that things were so ‘unfair’ in our sessions, because when each session began, I ‘insisted’ (according to her) that I had to talk about MY problems first. Yes, she really did say that. She had NO boundaries. I am a good listener, and sometimes would listen to some things she had to say about herself. I replied “YOu have forgotten WHO has been paying for my sessions; I HAVE, NOT YOU. The sessions are for me to tell you MY problems”.
• And this is yet ANOTHER reason why many become therapists:
o to seek help for THEIR problems. I can’t begin to tell you how many people have told me that their therapists just ‘had’ to discuss their own problems with their clients. When I began with my first therapist, I had NO idea that this wasn’t right. One of the students proclaimed that a client should look for ‘warning signs’ that the therapist was not any good, and then ‘end the sessions’. Very nice, except: WHAT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE WARNING SIGNS??? And, worse than that, what if you see them, and the therapist flat out tells you you are Wrong???
• Plus – I did end the sessions with almost All my Therapists. And then what? What was I left with?? Tremendous sadness & anger. There was absolutely NO role model, no advice, Nothing at all re: what I should do next to get help except the old : “Find another therapist’. I had already gone through more than a dozen therapists who were out of their minds – how many MORE did I have to go through?? I finally regained sanity (or gained it, how knows?!) when I realized that Therapy was NOT going to help me. That I had to find another way (which I have successfully done, I might add).
• Other terrible reasons some people become therapists: 4) Many have mental problems themselves, and in a very bizarre way, think they can ‘work them out’ by doing therapy. And PLEASE do not tell me ‘they just should have seen therapists themselves’. Some did – and it changed nothing. Again, because so many therapists have so many problems, the odds are that the therapists they saw could never really help them.
• 5) Many just want raw power, and, in most professions, can’t get this need met. In being a therapist they do Not have a BOSS; They can abuse their clients as they please, or order them to do what they want. Don’t tell me there is a governmental disciplinary board, they are a JOKE, unless the therapist sleeps with his/her client. And don’t tell me that the client can always drop them as a therapist. Many clients are so weak & vulnerable, and/or have such low self-esteem, that they are convinced, at the get go, that the therapist has unqualified knowledge. And even if a few clients drop them, so what? There are plenty more miserable weak people who will seek out therapists, so they have an almost endless supply of people to abuse. For example, I had a therapist who told me, very belligerently, that of course men didn’t like me because of the way I ‘acted’ – never explaining what that was, and never trying to help me ‘change’, etc.
• 6) Many can’t get intimate with others, they are too scared, etc., BUT as we all have intimacy needs, they fulfill these needs by getting ‘intimate’ with their clients – after all, when we listen to someone’s deep feelings, we do feel closer to them. In this way the therapist gets his or her intimacy needs fulfilled without having to be vulnerable.
• A few other very important points about being a therapist:
• Unlike any other profession; the therapist ONLY does her work alone with a patient. There are never any ‘witnesses’, to observe whether the therapist is doing an adequate job. Most therapists I know do not even have a Receptionist! I am a lawyer, and even if I mistreat clients, or bungle something, there are very frequent opportunities for OTHERS to see that – Judges, other lawyers, receptionists, etc. Doctors have nurses & receptionists, etc. when I have confronted a therapist on what he/she said, I have heard “I never said that”; “you misunderstood”, etc. People who want to be abusive, use sheer power, etc., can get away with murder if they are therapists.
• One your students claimed that seeing a therapist ‘was similar to being a doctor’, who diagnoses a patient. There are Big differences. One is what we call the ‘standard of care’, which is what traditional medicine recognizes as the standard, accepted treatment for an ailment. Example: a patient breaks her arm. The standard of care: a doctor sets the bone, and puts a cast on it. VERY different when a client, for example, gets depressed because her boyfriend left her, and goes to a therapist. The therapist may do ANY of the following: be compassionate to the patient, and listen to her, saying little; yell at the patient to ‘look at your own actions’ as to why he left you; tell the patient ‘that is just like when MY ex-husband left me, because . . . “; lecture the patient, telling her to ‘pick yourself up by the bootstraps’ and go find another boyfriend, and command her to do that NOW; and on and on. The therapist has MANY more options re: what is considered ‘standard’ treatment of a patient than does a doctor. The doctor setting the patient’s bone WILL most likely successfully treat the patient. Will the actions of the therapist successfully treat the individual client? Who knows.
• And, finally, one up your alley, as someone who teachers future therapists:
• The entrance requirements, and what comprises ‘supervision’of future and beginning therapists are NOT high or good. When reviewing the requirements to become a therapist, except for obtaining a Ph.D. in psychology, the requirements are not that demanding. For example, I found out that to get into MSW programs, universities do NOT require an interview. All you need is a ‘C’ average, and a B.A. in psychology, etc. to get in. Here they are graduating people whose goal it is to become therapists, and the colleges really don’t know if the person they are admitting can do even a mediocre job working with people. My daughter is applying to a nursing program, and they REQUIRE an interview. Besides needing to see her grades in her science courses, so they know she knows the material, they rightly demand to see how she handles herself with people.
• Also: those students obtaining a Masters in Social Work (MSW) are NOT required to take even one course in ‘relationship’ or ‘couples’ counseling. Yep. Yet, how many clients seek therapists for these problems in these very areas?? There is nothing lawfully which at all prevents an MSW from doing therapy in these areas. This is pathetic & Unbelievable.
• As for supervision: where I live, in California, the required internships (means placement in a clinical setting) for graduating, in MFT – marriage and family therapist programs, does NOT require that the student actually be supervised by a licensed MFT. I found this out when I was a member of a support group, it was run by one of these MFT student interns, and after a while I experienced the fact that she did NOT like me. She admitted this to me, but that she ‘was working on it’. Yeah, but she was still awful to me in the group, singling me out, saying cruel things, etc., and I had to drop out. Before this time, I called her ‘supervisor’ and asked her to observe the group, her response was laughter, followed by ‘I don’t do that’. So I researched, and yes, the supervisor HAS to ‘supervise’, but the regulation readily defined that did not require ‘in-person’ supervision of the intern. All the intern has to do is to meet with their ‘supervisor’ (ahem) once a week and tell the ‘supervisor’ (only) what the Intern’s experiences had been. Huh?? How is the intern to LEARN from his/her own actions?? I HAVE SEEN THIS IN NO OTHER PROFESSION. When I was a law student, I was supervised in a clinical course, when my professor read all the legal documents I had drafted, and also watched me personally in court. Physicians undergo internships and residencies where far more experienced doctors WATCH what they do, and how they treat patients. I know people who studied to become car mechanics and plumbers, for example, where they had in-person supervision. Why do we demand less from those who allegedly can ‘heal’ us emotionally, than we do from people who fix our pipes and cars??
• One last comment. Steve, you said “clients can be as misleadingly self-referential as therapists can be”. I wouldn’t disagree. BUT – and this is a big BUT, unless Disequilibrium disagrees with me – this blog was meant to be a Safe Place for those of us whose lives have been damaged by therapists. Many blogs, on-line support groups, etc. are also set up as Safe Places. As far as I am concerned, we don’t need or want these types of comments of yours. I have heard them far too many times, from people who refuse to hear me out. You certainly have blogs, other places where you can post these types of comments to your heart’s content – I can only post my feelings and how badly I have been treated by therapists in the past on this blog, and perhaps a few other places. And I certainly invite my fellow ex-therapy clients on this blog to agree or disagree with me.
• And, finally, New Zealanders, that’s about all I have to say at this time. I wish you well.
Hi Susan, thank you for your comprehensive post, it is most appreciated (including the bits where you disagree with me, or take issue with me / us).
The students age in range from 18 – 54, and represent 6 different countries; the outcome research would agree with your list of “what doesn’t make a difference in therapy”, so no argument from me there; there is no literature that I can find that shows that Supervision makes ANY difference to therapeutic competency or client outcome; I have been very public in my criticism of professional associations, and have taken some tremendous heat for doing so (and I would do it again):
http://tvnz.co.nz/breakfast-news/call-social-worker-registration-video-4866939
I have asked my students not to place any more comments on this blog, and simply read the responses that either I or other readers post.
This is a superb summary from a clients perspective, and this is what I want the students to learn.
Resharpen,
Great post. I don’t agree 100% with what you say, but the overwhelming majority of what you say tells it like it really is. Thanks!
I visit this blog ever now and then because despite of my disagreements with Disequilibrium on certain points I appreciate the fact that she exposed the dark side of the psychotherapy profession and did it in a very expressive and compelling way. Many of her critical observations of the mind games played in therapy room that violate basic rules of kind and respectful human interactions are right on the mark. As an MH professional myself, I am in no way feel uncomfortable or offended by her criticism of the profession. On the contrary, I am happy that someone was able to express in such a compelling form what I was trying to communicate to my colleagues for a long time unsuccessfully.
How she moderates comments here and what kind of online community she creates is none of my business. I have my own website where I moderate comments how I see fit. Whoever believes that I squash the “free speech” is free to air their frustration elsewhere.
@Adam Now, I’d like to say a few words to Adam because from how he described his experience in therapy, it looks very similar to mine.
Just like in your case, Adam, my therapy experience wasn’t as bad as Disequilibrium’s, but harmful enough to make me practically non-functional and to leave me in the state of profound suffering for many years..Just like in your case, what happened in my first therapy could not have been qualified as unethical by the official regulatory standards, which made it impossible for me to pursue justice through official channels. What was happening in that therapy was a series of power games and emotional manipulations in combination with empathy failures, ignorance and plain incompetence. And, also, just like you, not only was I not able to heal my wounds in subsequent therapies, but I was traumatized further, the second time mostly through the therapist’s ignorance and his unwillingness to deviate from professional dogmas, and the third time because the therapist violated the formal ethical standards on top of many other missteps. I filed a complaint about that last violation since I had the evidence that it occurred. That therapist has been disciplined by the board.
Another parallel I see in our experiences is that, just like you, despite the traumatic outcome, I can’t in good conscience call my entire therapy experience nothing but harm and a waste of time and money. There were quite few eye-opening moments in all my therapy experiences that I recall with gratitude because they advanced my growth, which has taught me that everything that happens to us has a purpose. Was it worth the price I have paid? No, it wasn’t. No one should pay this kind of price for life’s lessons. But regardless of whether it was worth the price or not, the growth did happen. This is the fact I can’t deny if my honesty and personal integrity are important to me, which they are
Anyway, I can go on and on because this subject is like a rabbit hole. The more layers you explore, the more other ones unfold..Here is my website http://www.therapyconsumerguide.com which you may find interesting. It’s far from finished. I have hundreds of topics in mind I want to write about but it’s usually super hard for me to sit down and put ideas into words..There are some personal stories there you may like and other topics of interest..
Marina, thanks so much for jumping in, and likewise I admire and appreciate your insights I’ve seen here, on your pages and on other venues. (I wonder if our smaller divergences stem from my need, as a brainwash-ee, to purge as much of the psych framework/vocabulary as I can.) But you definitely inspire my explorations as we travel this rabbit hole.
I can’t possibly know if my experience was worse than anyone else’s, and if you’d been there you would have seen merely mean people who got meaner. The consequences came from my deification, which therapists clearly encouraged. I needed to grow up, and therapy led me into more submission to authority and regression.
My most collegial and smartest therapist was my analyst–she did say some life-wise things–but three weekly hours exploring myself sent me into what I best can define is a meditation psychosis. I was so delusional I destroyed valuable friendships. I gained no wisdom or transformation upon return except the horrible realization how suggestible and malleable the mind can be.
I certainly recommend Marina’s blog http://www.therapyconsumerguide.com, and look forward to future additions. In fact last night a search engine brought me to a topic no longer there–therapy buzz words–and I hope you restore some older posts.
Marina Tonkonogy, thanks for sharing all that. Sounds rough what you went through. I do think my experience was similar in some ways, though I did not experience much in the way of games or obvious manipulations. It was more to do with inability to hold boundaries. My T was very involved with me emotionally, treated me as special in various ways, encouraged my outpourings of intense feelings and desire for her, and even fed those feelings some.
She did all this because, i believe, it made her feel good, and she had some level of mutual feelings for me (though nothing like what I felt) and because we shared a significant connection. It could be a sort of “emotional seduction” as was mentioned earlier in this forum. Then it became too much for both of us, and we stopped.
She badly underestimated my vulnerability and her own power. It was, to quote something I read, “like a child playing with a live bomb”. It went off, and she wanted to get away quickly. I have not been the same since, and the termination itself triggered a new set of terrible wounds and pain. In part because she was very subtly laying the blame on me, and it took me a while to realize I had done nothing wrong, she had failed to contain the process and keep me safe, but could not own up to this.
As for personal growth, remains to be seen. I can rationalize the experience and say it was necessary and will lead to growth. But that is speculation, all I really know is what I feel right now, which is disillusionment and unbearable longing and emptiness.
@Adam P
The therapeutic encounter tricks the client into thinking they are in love.
If you are in a one to one situation with someone and they are expressing intense interest in your childhood experiences if they are acting warm supportive and are sympathetic ,encouraging you to speak at length about all your feelings and intimate concerns your mind will think ‘Oh I must love this person’. Your therapist engendered an erotic transference.
Because she was a female it wasn’t overtly sexual – with men its (nearly) always is.
Fiona, yes no doubt about it, it felt like I was in love. And to such an extreme that I could think of nothing else. And because there was probably a maternal attachment that had developed in parallel with the love and desire, it was a devastating experience, especially following termination.
I could see what was happening rationally, but the experience was speaking to me at such a deep level, that I was powerless. And regardless of the artificiality of it, there was real attraction, and I feel now that I should never have been put in an intimate setting with this woman. If I am honest I probably would have fallen in love with her no matter what she did, but her behavior did indeed engender the feelings.
I am sure you are right about the male T version of this being more overt. But I can also say that the subtlety is in its own way a confusing torment that makes you question your reality.
The maternal thing … subconsciously she reminded you of your mother,the therapy had potential to be a reparative experience for you because its possible you lacked sufficient mirroring (by your mother) of your specialness and in terms of your brain wiring up in an optimum way this would have been developmentally traumatic.
A boy’s most important developmental period is his first five years & he gets his sense of self-esteem from his mother.
This woman caused things to be triggered psychologically in you which could well have caused chemical changes resulting in actual realignment of your brain circuitry stirring up an addiction to her and the neurological psychological health rewards (you mistakenly thought) she had on offer.
When she later behaved selfishly & insensitively it caused intense confusion mainly because she had linked into a very primal vulnerable part of your little boy psyche. Early love sculpts the brain and that very early trauma can alter the structure of the brain likewise the trauma from a re created re enacted primal scene with a female therapist can alter the structure of the brain.
Its probable you might not have fallen in love with her if you had met her in an alternative setting because theres probably all sorts of things she does in a natural setting that would turn you right off…
Fiona, thanks for your thoughts. I think you hit on some important points. Not sure if she subconsciously reminded me of my mother, but i remarked to her “you remind me of someone but I can’t put my finger on it” and “it’s like I knew you in a past life”. There was something very powerful happening beneath the surface.
But there was also real attraction in the moment, and its very hard to discern how much is maternal vs real world. No other female T had much effect on me, and none were physically attractive to me.
The possibility that it could have been reparative — this is what keeps me up at night, because that was my sense (although my rational mind was saying move on, this is dangerous, she did not contain boundaries or keep me safe).
And so after termination, I launched a desperate campaign to get her to take me back. Even initiating contact with the hope of some reconciliation seemed to increase my sense of well-being. And each time the door was shut, I spiraled down.
This goes back to the re-parenting concept that has been discussed in this forum. I don’t know what to think, but there was powerful attunement and mirroring happening with this T, it had the feeling of being unprecedented. And it may well have been impacting chemistry or neural pathways.
But to have this profound mirroring happening, and then to have a rupture, to be pushed away, and then to suspect that her own needs were taking precedence… yes extreme confusion, and distress that i have only begun to process.
Are these things you are bringing up Freudian concepts? Thanks again…
No its stuff I researched about why men are so traumatized by narcissistic women – Its widely accepted that we hold an unconscious image of our parents called an Imago and when we meet an Imago match we feel the ‘in love’ state.The love object resembles the childhood caretaker.
Did she say why she wouldn’t enter into dialogue after terminating you did her supervisor speak to you?
She sounds like a narcissist tbh.
Fiona, somehow I missed your March 6 reply. We did have some brief dialogue following termination and she was nice at first, but it soon become very parent-child. I had to plead, she resisted, then gave in a little. This increased the shame, humiliation, powerlessness.
The reasons given were — “I care about you deeply (which was probably true)”, or “its in your best interest” or “for your healing”. But she would never say directly what she really meant — you should have no more contact with me because this process has traumatized you. Everything was subtly framed in language that brings it back to me, and takes the focus off of her.
Of course it is in her best interest to not admit to this, to avoid self incrimination. But the failure to own up to this creates a sort of two layer wounding process. It’s a subtle form of “gaslighting” I suppose. And for a long time I felt guilty and foolish for reaching out for help.
I also think the whole thing left her scarred and she wanted to get away from it asap, to avoid the guilt and accountability and the doubts about her work. And I think she may have refused in order to appear resolute and not reverse any prior decisions (even though I was clearly doing very badly), and perhaps was tired of the whole thing.
No her supervisor did not speak to me. This never came up.
Thanks Disequilibrium. Yes, absolutely, I will restore my older posts. Don’t know when, but I will definitely do it gradually over time. As I am in a process of metabolizing and making sense of my entire experience with the industry as a consumer and a provider, I notice that my visions change as I grow and change. I gain new insights on the same concepts and topics and my older ways of describing them are no longer reflective of who I am today.
It may be that our divergences stem from your need to purge the brainwashing out of your system because you’ve consumed too much of it. I’ve never really been gullible and susceptible to brainwashing. I could easily get inspired by the ideas that resonate with some of my own visions, but I have never blindly followed anyone, whether it’s a person, a group, an organization or a movement, nor do I automatically accept any idea spread by anyone. That goes beyond psychotherapy. I don’t accept most of the messages coming from the mass media on the variety of topics and consider them a sheer propaganda, and I challenge most of the conventional thinking and conventional wisdom expressed in many dimensions of our society. Everything goes through the filter of my critical thinking.
I was able to stand my ground better than many other people before I started therapy, and while I had a strong impulse to idealize my therapists and accept what they say unquestionably, I fought that impulse every step of the way…
…Anyway, we all get hurt as we navigate our way through life, we make mistakes, we learn from them (hopefully), we grow (also hopefully), some of us share our experiences, our insights and our lessons with others, and others will make whatever they want to make out of our stories. As I always said, I can only control my intentions when I put information out. How this information is received is out of my control, and so I don’t worry about the response it will create.
Marina, I definitely plead guilty of blind obedience to therapy in those days. However, I fault my therapists more for behaving (and likely seeing themselves) as divine authorities and stoking my idolization. Now when I catch myself saying/writing/thinking a psych word or concept–and they are pervasive–I try to stop myself. The framing troubles me personally. Of course, psych concepts are in our cultural fabric, and my one-woman half-boycott–psych words almost are avoidable– is my little quirk.
Since I see us as travelers together in sparsely populated wilderness, maybe it can be a bit …I don’t know…surprising when we agree, agree, agree, whoops, don’t agree. Anyway, I admire what you say and insight you’ve offered in other venues.
A piece in the NY TImes says that one in four American women take psychiatric medications. Further searching said the source for that stat was a report by Medco Health Solutions, covered in several 2011 consumer-aimed articles.http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/opinion/sunday/medicating-womens-feelings.html
Here are more stats from a 2011 Harvard Health blog.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/astounding-increase-in-antidepressant-use-by-americans-201110203624
I’ve never been on psychotropic drugs and not raised that complex topic here. However the idea that this large a population percentage requires “treatment” is jolting.
I have been doing a fair bit of reading on psych drugs, owing to the frequent pressure I get to do SSRIs for my depression, because as everyone knows depression is caused by a “chemical imbalance”. The literature/data actually shows that there was never ANY evidence to support this theory, has been discredited over and over for decades by study after study.
And in fact drugs like SSRIs and antipsychotics actually *introduce* an imbalance, which leads to all sorts of problems over time. It is frightening in its Orwellian-ness.
I know a couple of people for whom antidepressants are a godsend – but that doesn’t mean they are good for everyone who has any kind of depression. We don’t really know enough about any genetic, etc. contributions to these things, so it is really a matter of trail and error, and luck, if meds are appropriate for someone.
The psychiatrist I tried said I was depressed and should take antidepressants, even though my score on the Beck depression inventory did not indicate depression. (i think she changed my diagnosis to “cyclothymia” at that point.) The state of the art is really pretty amateurish.
Mary S, the data seems to show that antidepressants can help in the short term, but at great cost. The book I am reading about psych meds demonstrates again and again that long term outcomes studies show that medicated patients fare THE WORST over time. Studies from major govt and private institutions are analyzed, always with the same basic conclusion.
The following quote from Italian Psychiatrist Giovanni Fava drives this home:
“Antidepressant drugs in depression might beneficial in the short term, but worsen the progression of the disease in the long term, by increasing the biochemical vulnerability to depression… Use of antidepressant drugs may propel the illness to a more malignant and treatment unresponsive course.”
The book is filled with such quotes from psychiatrists, researchers, etc.
Disability due to mental illness has skyrocketed in the age of psychotropic drugs. The above quote makes it plain why this is so.
Here is another mind-blowing quote:
“I spent the first several years of my career doing full-time research on brain serotonin metabolism, but i never saw any convincing evidence that any psychiatric disorder, including depression, results from a deficiency of brain serotonin”. Stanford Psychiatrist David Burns, 2003
I just noticed that Steve Taylor put a couple of comments on this blog on October 17, 2010. In one of them, he said, “I have an easy to follow rule: I don’t go where I am not invited to go, and I invite my clients to “bounce” me any time they like if I am heading into a cul-de-sac, when where they want me is on their main road.”
His behavior on this blog the last few days shows that he does not follow this rule here. That’s disappointing.
Mary, I’m not too surprised that a therapist’s kindly-empathic schtick amounts to marketing copy, and in truth one will happily throw a patient under the bus if his expertise or pride is threatened.
Since it’s not my first rodeo, I was entertained to see the great blusterer throw his thunderbolts. But I imagine the consequence if a therapist displayed that rage at a vulnerable, distressed patient like the February 27, 2015 at 4:48 pm “entitled” post. Or how about the twisted narrative in the February 27, 2015 at 8:08 pm “Keep playing the victim” post.? Then the next day we get the gaslighting “I wasn’t attacking.” And we’ve yet to see any contrition, any apology, any self-awareness of this amazing performance.
Is this an isolated event, or is this systemic? I can’t answer that. I know that in the private world of therapy, some variation of this happens some of the time. It happened to me, broadly and subtly, and I read frequent accounts on forums. And I know in the vast ocean of psych literature, there appears scant specific exploration of it save more general goo about the client’s best interest. Even a recent book on ethics ridiculed clients.
I allowed the trolling comments through because some of us experienced some form of this, and here we have Exhibit A clearly before us in print. In my experience, a therapist’s kindly-parent-figure mask was conditional on my idolization. Respectfully question the therapist or the treatment, and here comes the defensiveness and fury. That’s a consequence of this asymmetrical system therapy creates. The guy in power needs to stay there.
Disequilibrium: I do realise that you claim to have been harmed by therapy: I also realise that I’m a convenient target for your seemingly obsessive vitriol, you being anonymous and all; I can’t speak regarding therapists who worked with you or others – it’s just that the sort of therapy experiences a number of people on this blog are describing sounds like something out of the twilight zone: no credible training organisation I know of (for example) would teach that clients dress in such a way as to seduce therapists.
Clients having blind obedience to therapy / therapists? Thunderbolts? The language being used on this blog reminds me of de-programming, most often observed in religious or personality cults.
I offer up an alternative perspective, reinforce same with some pretty credible evidence, and you (and others) make me (and my students) to be people akin to ISIL / ISIS.
I know that this is not a very classically “therapeutic” thing to say, but I’ll say it anyway: get a grip.
They were dressing up with short skirts showing skin because he was flirting with them.
They were trying to entice him he was a creepy sleaze bag but they played into it.No doubt he expected me to do what they did but I refused I told him he was out of order and made a complaint.Personally I feel they have a small amount of accountability for it. Of course this goes on – especially with male therapists.
Steve, thank you so much for demonstrating how practitioners behave when their expertise is challenged. I point out your invective; you hear it as an accusation of immolation, beheadings and world conquest.
Thank you again for illustrating how easily a therapist can distort and misstate the narrative. When a client views her provider as an authority figure this kind of gaslighting can be quite harmful. If the client asserts a challenge treatment easily will become an ongoing power struggle.
I hope the students will understand this is an example of how easily an unwitting therapist can harm his clients.
I hope the students also realize that a therapist gripped by this extreme degree of countertransference is obligated to get a consultation to modulate his dyregulation. Ask yourself how effectively you’re teaching, representing your school and your profession with posts like this.
disequilibrium1:
Oh of course……….I take an alternative perspective on the issues you raise, and now I’m an abuser to boot?
My actual clients would be very amused at your summary – I’m neither an authority figure, or a person who they would have a power struggle with – in my office, the playing field (yes, there’s that term again) is much more level – informed by the fact that I’m having my clients measure my performance with them every session (on-going assessment of the therapeutic alliance, which is the most powerful predictor of achieving positive client outcome).
A Freudian huh? Thanks – I’ll pass – the man was barking.
In the meantime, I will continue to advocate for greater transparency and effectiveness in therapy, and I will continue to advocate for privileging the clients voice within the therapeutic space.
And you can continue to advocate for……………………whatever it is you are trying to achieve in this public discourse?
My goodness, and I thought it was just the “monolith” I was up against……
Perhaps Steve isn’t legit….funny that he has never heard of women dressing up for the gratification of men therapists hmm thats a bit strange…maybe someone should check his credentials…
Dear all,
I am writing again to ask you if any of you had some experince with EMDR. I had many sessions of EMDR years ago with my therapist and they didn’t seem to make an obvious change. However, last year, after a break of two years, I had a very powerful one, meant to do away with a specific fear that I had. While indeed the fear disappered and hasn’t appeared since then, I felt that was the moment when it was replaced by other, worse things, such as deep pessimism and the inability to plan ahead or look hopefully at the future, simply the overwhelming idea that there is no more time or opportunity for me to do anything with my life.
Another question I would like to put up for debate is how one can get rid of the suspicion that what one has find out about oneself during therapy is not actually true, things such as being one’s family power games victim etc. It is as if a new reality, a much bleaker one has replaced my view upon life, and now, inspite of telling myself that it’s just an impression, I can hardly ever recapture a more serene opinion on the surrounding reality and on my relationships…
Anna, I haven’t had EDMR,and from my reading, see it draws mixed opinion. On my own though, I’ve swapped one specific anxiety for another.
I severely question “finding out about myself,” because any recall can’t be validated and is inevitably distorted. First, the therapists encouraged rumination on the worst of life, which of course excludes the good parts, and the boring parts. Instead of offering understanding, this review seemed instruction in how to whip myself into pessimism and depression by reliving the worst of times. Reliving the best of the past seems just as valid.
Likewise, I think therapy was a brain scramble, and it’s difficult sometimes not to be depressed about how depressed it left me. I ultimately decided though that a past-life review really wasn’t “knowing myself,” because I can’t change the past anyway. “Knowing myself” how I respond and create going forward is just as or maybe more valid. I’m less certain what knowing myself means anymore.
But I identify with what you say about bleak. I wish I could scrub all traces of therapy from my brain with a brush. I’m guilty of playing the Pollyanna glad game, so when something bad happens I look for the silver lining. With that goal I often find it. I also look for people, places, assemblies that can enrichment me. (All this is difficult when I feel overwhelmed.) Destructive therapy showed me a selfish side of human nature a lesson with its own value in the long run.
Anna,
I’d like to suggest that perhaps “what one has found out about oneself in therapy” in fact may not be true. In other words, maybe your “suspicion” is a healthy one, one that may in fact be true. What we learn in therapy may often be a figment of the therapist’s imagination, or just their ill-thought-out theory, something that they encouraged or even “led” us to believe that may not have a strong basis in reality, or which may be of less import than they seemed to lead us to believe. I think it’s really healthy to question what therapists tell us or encourage us to believe.
I don’t know how old you are, but as long as you are alive, there is time and opportunity to do something with your life — maybe not something spectacular, and maybe with down times between the gratifying times, but still things that are worthwhile, either in the moment or in a more lasting sense. I am so sorry that therapy has left you with this bleakness, but I do think that with time, it is something you can get rid of — kind of like cleaning up your house after a flood.
hmmmm…
I just googled Steve Taylor NZ . Evidently he is a therapist that likes a bit of outspoken controversy – he certainly doesn’t shy away from an argument.
Thanks Fiona. I tried googling him earlier, but didn’t look at more than his home page. But after seeing your comment, I looked further, and found things like http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publish/31/article_15710.php and http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED1306/S00085/counsellor-applauds-critique-of-nz-sex-education-report.htm.
I was beginning to worry that he might be representative of practitioners of client and outcome informed types of therapy, which have seemed to show the most promise for improvement in the therapy professions. But I now think he probably is not. That gives me a little more hope from where I was earlier this evening. Glad I decided to look here to see if there was anything more about him.
Hello, again, thank you for your answers. I re-read my last post and I realized I made a mistake. The question is in fact ” what if this new reality IS the real reality”? What if I am indeed of victim, what if I am indeed helpless, what if things won’t get better, what if the patterns I have seen in myself and others are true and here to stay… I have never asked myself these questions before going into therapy…Since I started to read this blog, I ‘ve felt some comfort in the thought that this is not the real me, this is just the result of ” bad medication”, and I will come back to my senses one day, but at times fear that this will not actually happen seizes me and doesn’t let go…
But, as Dis1 says, there is a lot to unlearn, there is a lot to undo…hopefully time will heal this.
Anna, I agree with the bad medication. Unlike the psych industrial complex, I’m uncertain how Life Works, yet find–sometimes– what works for me.
Some of my thinking post-therapy can be persistent. I make a large effort stop hyper-sensitivity, to see stop seeing other’s the dark side and stop focus on the worst of human nature.
Therapy instilled the disservice of magical thinking–a delusion it would transform me if only a “knew myself,” that there was a “cure” for whatever I had, that it somehow could alleviate life’s pain. I now realize that it sold me a fantasy.
Over the years, I found my own way to exist on the planet, a merry irony in my case. I also found that if I can forgive a certain amount of error in others–again individual mileage will vary–sometimes I can find the best in them.
I have found bad experiences recede. When an unfairness leaves me debilitated the best salve was to rise again, though I know that often is a gradual process.
As you describe, I was never the same after therapy. Maybe it’ been a process of doing some weeding, plowing others into the ground so they only spring up occasionally. For me though, perspective continues to shift, and parts of the bad experience has helped me live better.
To Anna’s point, I’ve come to conclusion that discovering what “reality” is is a very tedious process that takes a life time. That’s what life is, at least to me. It’s a never ending process of separating the weeds from the chaff. And to do that successfully, I constantly make sure that I am neutral enough to be able to consider everything but not to be sold on anything. That is to say that I can consider anyone’s point of view, anyone’s insight on me and my situation, but I don’t automatically accept it, as well as I don’t automatically accept my own beliefs about me, my life and about anything. This last part is very important, because often we believe that we are thinking our original thoughts but we aren’t. Since the day we are born and throughout our entire life we are bombarded with all kinds of messages from family, friends, teachers, peers, co-workers, therapists (of course!), politicians, media, employers, all kinds of “experts” and “pundits”. Brainwashing a.k.a social engineering is everywhere you look, not just in therapy. We are breathing it in all the time, and in such conditions it’s very difficult to separate what’s yours from what’s somebody else’s and to get to your own truth. It takes a lot of deliberate effort to do that.
I am able to connect with my truth when I am able to quite the mental chatter in my head and to distance myself from all my thoughts and beliefs. At such moments I only listen to my body, because this is the only agent of truth to me and the only entity who can tell me what reality is. Everything else is deception..
To Disequilibruim’s point, the impact of bad experiences for me recedes when I relax my moral judgments. That is to say that it’s not important for me to focus on how morally wrong someone’s behavior was. I acknowledge that it was wrong, but it’s more important for me to see it in the context of what specific role that particular experience served in my life and what my role was in it. Since there is nothing I can do about someone else’s morality or health, or behavior, or their personal choices, I prefer to focus on mine. I can only manage my own choices and so there is no point for me to invest my emotional energy on endlessly condemning other people’s misdeeds. It’s just basic common sense. I can still be angry at those who hurt me, but I manage my life much better when I focus on understanding myself and my reasons for making the choices I make.
In that sense, yes, “knowing” or, better say, understanding myself helps me tremendously. What I think is irritating about what therapists do is that they don’t help people to “know” themselves as much as they think they do, because, unlike what they believe, they don’t have unlimited psychic powers to see all the underlying causes of someone’s suffering. Some of the insights my therapists offered were helpful to me because they resonated with my own intuitive knowing of my “reality” that I just couldn’t put into words. Others were completely off and I dismissed them. My therapists, unfortunately, were not able to dismiss them when I let them know that their assumptions were wrong. That was the irritating part – their conviction that they really “knew” what was going on. But this lack of humbleness is just a part of human nature. Each one of us suffers from the arrogance of the ego that comes out every time we feel the need to assert ourselves and to make someone else wrong.
This is one of the “dark” characteristics of human nature that I acknowledge and accept. I don’t necessarily “focus” on it and the expense of not “focusing” on the higher dimension of human nature that carries all the properties of “light” such as compassion, cheerfulness, empathy, kindness etc. I simply accept both just as they are without making one “good” and the other one “bad”. They are just as they are, they both have a purpose and they both will continue to be parts of who we are as humans. When I put things into this kind of perspective, I no longer focus either on “badness” or “goodness” of anything and anyone. That reduces the suffering but also reduces the need to idealize or emphasize the “good” experiences, the “good” people and the “goodness” of human nature.
Lot of interesting points. Agree about the body being what’s true. And the conditioned mind being so full of distortions and, well, conditioning. And the concept of an expert sorting out your neuroses being questionable.
But with regard to therapy, all of this brings me back to a simple concept — maybe what is most legitimate in therapy is just when the therapist listens with patience and empathy and attunement. I mean isn’t that what heals?
All of the specific modalities, techniques, analysis and so on could be considered questionable or even dangerous. But simple listening and mirroring, and letting the client speak their truth and feelings out loud in the presence of a witness who is not part of the client’s everyday life and making someone who is struggling feel a bit more connected… there is fundamentally nothing wrong with that and potentially a lot that is right.
Seems the trouble comes when therapist assume the role of master, sage, fixer of problems, etc as you say.
“at the expense”. Sorry for all the typos 🙂
Marina, great point about other’s bad deeds and morality. A colleague used the metaphor of fish hooks and the choice to refuse the hook of someone else’s misdeeds.
On reflection my therapy seemed to encourage my black and white thinking, that there were good trustworthy people (the therapists) and bad people (bad parents.) That didn’t serve me.
In my case, speculation about causes wasn’t helpful–causes would always remain speculative–and much of my childhood circumstance was ongoing. So I did better out of therapy– creating new approaches for the future. My true teachers have been friends, bosses and co-workers who taught me through example.
I share your feelings about the body and have done many physical modalities from yoga to acupuncture to rolfing.
A couple of people told me they felt so much better around age 50,because they stopped caring what others thought. Similarly , I’ve felt better when I let go of such an urgent need to receive outside approval.
Paradigm shifts do seem to travel in a circle, how we see others, how we see ourselves. Maybe it’s like driving on a winding road, a process of steering and readjusting.
Adam I agree with you about therapists doing damage when they pretend to be fixers and sages. Witness fine; superior not.
Not giving a damn about what others think, as you get older, has definitely been my experience. The fact that life is very short and that I can’t afford to spend my precious time on this earth worrying about all kinds of BS, opinions of others included, the awareness of this fact downed on me a few years ago, in my early 40-s. Now, being 46 (will be 47 this summer), and getting closer to 50th mark, my life’s priority is to dismiss anything I encounter that doesn’t serve my soul’s needs. This makes it much easier to let go of anything I feel needs to go.
Our experiences in therapy and other life experiences clearly have been different.
Friends were not of much help to me during my adult years, and bosses and co-workers were just a source of stress. I’ve been blessed with the great marriage though, so that compensated for many other “bad” experiences.
Therapy, as I’ve mentioned, was a mixed experience of “goods” and “bads”. I definitely was exposed to some degree of “gaslighting” by therapists, which was harmful. At the same time, my therapists never insisted that I accepted their “truths”. They were sure as hell that they knew what the “truth” was and that I by the virtue of being a “patient” couldn’t possibly be as enlightened as they were and that arrogance drove me crazy. But they didn’t insist that I accepted what they “knew”. They also never insisted on me staying in therapy. A part of me wished they did because that would’ve made me feel like they cared. By the way, this is something I hear many people say when they tell their therapy stories. I hear a lot about therapists abandoning clients, never about therapists insisting that clients stayed in therapy. I only learned about such instances from your story. I understand that you were in therapy many years ago, looks like about 30 something yeas ago. So, that particular scenario might have been more prevalent back then, but certainly not now.
Anyway, our therapy and life experiences are clearly different, even though some parts may be similar. And our experiences certainly shape our views.
Agreed, most of the stories I’ve read recently is about abandoning clients.
However “counselor tries to keep you in therapy against your will” is listed as one of the 50 warning signs,” and I either read or saw it elsewhere in a lecture.
I didn’t experience the therapist’s attempts to retain me as caring. He tried to retain me through insults, using what he knew about me, and it felt like control, a battle of wills. He decided that my dissatisfaction with therapy and desire to leave indicated some sort of transference and breakthrough as opposed to how I saw it, that the exercise was worthless.
Adam, I think, you are right, non-judgmental listening and non-judgmental presence with the other human being, allowing someone to unfold their story and their inner world and express themselves however they want may be one major curative factor.
The problem is it’s easier said than done :-). We all want to get this non-judgmental listening from somebody else, but we are unwilling and unable to provide it. Some people do it better than others and so it’s always somewhere on the continuum. While it’s essential for therapists, (and, frankly for everyone) to develop this skill and this attitude of acceptance and non-judgment, there will always be a limit of how far one can go with it. When we hear someone say things that contradict our moral values and core beliefs, it’s hard, if not impossible to stay non-judgmental and accepting. It’s just not in our human nature. The best we can do is to be aware of our judgments, opinions, biases etc so we could be as present with someone as we can.
Besides, what you are proposing is not new. The first person to propose this idea was Carl Rogers, a therapist who started the Humanistic school of thought in psychotherapy. The reason why he came up with the idea was precisely the one you mentioned, he didn’t believe that therapists should fulfill the role of a sage. His famous concept of “unconditional positive regard” for a client is a classic concept and a part of psychotherapy textbooks. Unfortunately, life proved this concept unrealistic. This is not to say that the idea is invalid. The idea, actually, overlaps with the one that many spiritual teachings hold about humans, that at our core we are all good-natured. It’s just, in practice, it’s impossible to adopt this attitude when you relate to others. May be, people like Dalai Lama or someone of that level of spiritual development can do that, but no one else. This certainly can’t be taught in therapy training 🙂 or any other training. It’s an inner quality, not something that you get through training.
disequilibrium1, I read with interest some of your remarks from a while back, pertaining to client criticism of therapy:
“I find it outrageous how primed colleagues seem to believe the therapist over the client.”
“My highly unscientific survey also found the Psych Industrial Complex largely scornful to anyone, complaining or not, who deigns to criticize a therapist. Textbooks authoritatively explain these ruptures with torrents of client-blaming.”
I have been living this for the past few months as I have tried to find a new T, following the traumatic rupture I had with my ex-T. One remained mostly neutral and one other was pretty fair to me. But the rest compounded the wounding to vary degrees, with the last launching an attack on me in our 2nd session. He was so incensed by my claims of being harmed by therapy, that he couldn’t stand it.
The client-blaming was implicit in some cases, even reflexive and unconscious. At first I believed it, that ex-T was fundamentally beyond reproach, and the problem was with me and my distorted thinking and lack of insight. The underlying problems are unquestionably about me, but to not have the therapeutic failure and the very real trauma that resulted acknowledged explicitly by my original T, nor by her colleagues, from whom I was seeking a sort of proxy accountability, has been destructive and is decidedly unethical.
It’s to the point now where the primary factor in considering new Ts is whether they understand anything about traumatic ruptures in therapy, and whether they can give me a fair shake on this.
I even consulted with a guy who specializes in impasses and ruptures, and he did a subtle number on me, redirecting focus on the ex-T’s feelings. He acted like me and T were equal partners in a dispute. Who advocates for the client as someone asked…
My subsequent therapist seemed to want to sweep the incident under the rug while exploring what I did to provoke the therapist’s wrath. I disagree with the internet blogs and articles I read on ruptures–they promote the industry rather than have insight into the consumer.
I just got a copy of the Sue Elkind book and there is some very good stuff in there. She describes things re: ruptures that are very close to my own experience. She used the metaphor of a surgeon leaving the patient on the operating table with an open wound, which is same way I framed it in my head.
Cant say I have found much of use either in terms of online content. And I don’t recall seeing much at all about the most extreme rupture — termination forced by the therapist against the wishes of the client.
BTW, here is something from a blog re: termination rupture that might get the blood boiling. The blog is written by a life coach of some sort…
Q. My therapist has abandoned me–just terminated our sessions. Does this seem fair or right?
A. Generally, no. But a professional won’t do this, unless you’ve consistently demonstrated an inability or unwillingness to be compliant with treatment. If you’ve utilized his/her guidance and suggestions, there’s no reason to end a therapeutic alliance–but if you haven’t, and you’re struggling with the same issues after a reasonable time frame (three to six months), then they have every right to determine that you will not benefit from continuing with them, and should refer you out to someone else.
Yes they can terminate but they need to go through a process they cant spring it on you.
I think you are viewing her thru the rosy coloured specs of love-she doesn’t like her authority challenged-sounds like narcissism.
I’ve read some horror stories online..one man developed an erotic transference and was abruptly and callously terminated by the therapists supervisor apparently he turned up for his session and the two of them were waiting for him-he is now totally fixated on her and can hardly function he is convinced one day they will be together and married.
Adam, that makes my blood boil as well. It assumes that 1) psychotherapy actually is effective. 2) change happens in a predictable trajectory.
More therapist arrogance.
Adam,
In your March 27, 8:27 comment, you said, “The blog is written by a life coach of some sort…”
Just wanted to point out that in my understanding*, a life coach is usually not a registered therapist of any sort. So they can pretty much do anything they want without even the little bit of accountability that a registered therapist has. I suspect some of them are former therapists who have had run-ins with client complaints and professional sanctions, so have gone the “life coach” route to avoid any accountability in their practice. So I would trust a life coach even less than a registered therapist.
*See e.g., http://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-10-professional-life-coaching-myths/
My biggest problem during my therapy era was my general ineptitude negotiating workplace politics. I was only vaguely aware of my shortcoming, so don’t know how an off-site coach or anyone else could have helped. However I could have used the most assistance with practical skills, as opposed to a some mythical transformation therapists thought they were selling.
Fiona, my T did not spring it on me, we actually talked about it for a while, but I was very conflicted. It was after termination that things got terribly painful – attachment rupture among other things. She did not plan for me going into a spiral and major crisis. And I had NO idea this would happen or I would have resisted termination. And then she refused any more support, then insisted on no more contact. I think in part because I *did* challenge her authority. She did not like me questioning her decision nor pointing out what went wrong.
THere is still some rose colored thinking, and a lingering feeling that she could be my soulmate (part reality, part illusion). Whatever the case, i am fixated terribly. Every day for several months she is on my mind. It is a torment and prison I wish I could escape.
Mary S, yes my understanding is that a life coach is not licensed in any way. Did not mean to imply that the quote I posted was from an actual therapist, but seemed the source was in the general domain of therapists and therapist-like professionals, and so came from the same sort of point of view.
“focus on the ex-T’s feelings”
Your therapist wants you in the adult to adult state he doesn’t want to acknowledge that she had allowed the situation to regress to a parent child interaction. Can you complain to her professional body – I know you still feel loving towards her but she should be held to account.
Yea maybe so. He mostly seemed to want to take responsibility off my ex-T, indirectly, by talking about my part in the outcome and about her feelings. I called him on this and he eventually apologized… sort of.
Re: parent-child, I think she resorted to this post-termination because I was reporting to her that termination was having a powerfully harmful impact on me. She perhaps did not anticipate this, a real failure, and did not want to face this and did not like having her authority questioned, especially because I was saying so in strong and insistent language.
I am reluctant to file a complaint because of the lack of overt violations, and because I don’t want to completely poison the experience. And I am still trying to contact her to reconcile things, but I am probably deluded on this.
I see therapy as such an distorted, synthesized relationship it’s easily a set-up for this to create all sorts of emotional chaos. I’ve tried to reason my way back to sanity, through reading, through seeing the therapist as someone who could have been my classmate, now doing a job. For me, life has had a way of eventually refilling the holes, replacing the hurt with other experiences. I also find life great therapy–to recover from therapy.
disequilibrium1, yes the artificiality of it is dangerous. If this is well understood by both parties and the T is skilled and diligent I still think good things could happen, as in any meaningful relationship. But for me it ended up being total chaos. So many of the “primary vulnerabilities” were activated then left hanging there — fears and anxieties around trust, betrayal, abandonment, disintegration, failure, rejection, separation.
And because of circumstances in my life, it has been very hard to fill the holes with life experiences. And this in fact relates to another damaging thing implied by my T — that this should be seen as a life lesson, a necessary happening on the road to healing. In time, might well be. But she focused on this while downplaying the harm done, dismissing what is happening now in favor of what might be, with a subtle implication that for me to see it otherwise is yet another pathology of mine.
It seems the mental health industry likes to call just about normal anything a pathology. I wonder if there’s such a thing is normal. That therapists take any normal human response and label it something to be “healed” is just so much salesmanship to be.
Filling up the holes–for me takes time. I had one unfairness, unrelated to therapy, that hurt me for years. I eventually reclaimed what I feel they took from me. I’m less inclined to use the word –healing–and more like the word– receding.
Blogger Tomasz Witkowski’s book is out in English. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/psychology-and-psychotherapy-how-much-is-evidence-based/
Here’s a link to his blog, with some new entries since I last linked to him in spring of 2014.
https://forbiddenpsychology.wordpress.com/
Sorry for my english I am from México. Is very weird, as some nowadays pro-antisichiatrist firmly bealieve that there would be much more helpfull from their former sicotherapist if they move and removed into their client childhood traumas, you firmly state exactly the contrary. As times goes on and i find myself more self-focused and confident i find out that psycotherapists (no matter the brand) are just a bunch of hustlers that make their lifes out from the pain and the grief of the people. It is very disheartening that just a very few (most of the time, people like you and me that were harmed by the so called Therapist) can feel totally confident in our critisism against their field. And more because i do not see any glimmer of self-criticism within them. It seems that this fraud will last longer. I do not see the resolution of our own conflicts in any place that is not our own self with the real support of real good friends or a new and caring environment. Real emotional break downs come from a lack of love, emotional an sexual abuse in childhood or from really extraordinary and strong events wich can not be healed just by putting ourselves again in threat with this hustlers. I disagree in one point with you, because while i found totaly healer to find real autocompassion -wich i find is a way to start the healing process-, you find very uncomfortable this emotion that you insted named self pitty. As i see every person needs different aproaches to solve their own struggles wich shoul be solve at one own time wich sometimes can be a lifetime. To be patient with our own soul and be brave and courageuos is better than try to seek answers where there are not. A good friend to cry with could be more usefull than to pay to someone that does not care about us but care about the money, wich i actually find really disgusting. Thanks a lot for keep on making surveys and strong statements to the field (sicotherapy). Bianca
Thank-you very much for this blog. I came across it a couple of years ago when I was having difficulties with a therapist and struggling to prove what was going on in the sessions. Trying to raise it, formally and informally, with the therapist and also with the clinic manager, also went nowhere. I won’t go into much detail here because I can see – with relief – that both the blog post and other commenters have described similar experiences. At one point when I asked to be referred to another therapist in the clinic because of not getting on with her, she declined, stating that in her opinion I was a high suicide risk and therefore not worth another therapist starting a course of treatment with me (I had never expressed any suicidal thoughts or tendencies, was not depressed, etc). When I look back on it now, this was a shocking remark for her to make to someone she claimed to believe was a suicide risk. But it was my first experience of therapy and I had little idea how it was supposed to work.
Before terminating treatment with that therapist, I attended a session with a dictaphone running in my coat pocket, to record what was happening. This is legal where I am – and there had been a recent precedent of a journalist posing as a gay patient to capture on tape evangelical Christian therapists or counsellors trying to “heal” gay clients or patients of their sexuality (!).
I have mixed feelings about the experience. The recording confirmed and evidenced my complaints and misgivings about the therapist’s behaviour. At one point she even goaded me saying something like “what can you do about it, there are no witnesses here”. But I realised I couldn’t “use” the recording because she could just lie and claim it was a one-off. Or that her behaviour and comments were somehow appropriate in the context of previous (unrecorded) sessions, as part of some cryptic therapeutic dynamic intended to challenge me in some ultimately healing way etc. It brought home to me how hard it is to prove the more subtle forms of abuse (abuse of persons, abuse of power, abuse of the intimacy of a relationship).
But it was a boon in other ways. The recording also made it clear to me that I was doing everything “right” – I was raising my concerns clearly and sensibly and being given the runaround. If she wasn’t hearing me, it wasn’t because of failure on my part. And if she was trying to “help” me, then she had chosen a very strange way to do it, and I was right to say “No thank-you” and this should have been honoured. When you have been gaslighted, the discovery that actually you are Ok, is wonderful. So, although not practically useful in the way that I hoped, the recording was empowering.
That gave me the confidence to terminate treatment with that therapist and clinic immediately. And also to trust my own judgement, and to trust my self-respect. The practical ineffectiveness of the recording-as-evidence also helped me realise that sometimes I will be up against dishonest, manipulative, abusive, gas-lighting people, and although I would love to be able to “prove” what they are doing, I may not be able to. But I can still be confident and secure in those situations if I know that I am acting with clarity, integrity and self-respect. Ultimately what bad therapy did for me was encourage me to rebuild my relationship with myself.
I sometimes think that the mental health community operates like a faith or a religion – and there are more or less healthy ways of practicing and growing in a faith, and more or less responsible and informed ways of interpreting a religious text, but the ambiguity allows for a lot of charlatans, bullies, narcississts, and insecure people, to thrive – at the extent of their patients and clients, who in coming to therapy actually do have the humility, courage, and authenticity, that the profession praises and is supposed to exemplify. I do think therapy, practiced well, can be wonderful. But I get the impression most of the therapy that is done or practiced, is mediocre or worse. So the challenge is to work out your own relationship to the principles of the faith/religion, authentically and honestly, regardless of the bad examples, interpretations, and manifestations of it around you.
ZM, I suspect the mind games of therapy are not readily discussed or easily described, so it seems easy to feel isolated, wondering if we’re the only one. Yet, the more I read, from even happy clients/patients, the more I’m aware of the quiet domination and control that seems to happen in some therapy. This influence is usually subtle–as social signals frequently are–but it can leave clients captive to treatment that clearly has not benefit.
I experienced what sounds like a similar difficulty in leaving treatment–the “authority figure” telling me how much I needed him, sidestepping that our current relationship was nothing but disagreements and his one upmanship. During the grievance process, my therapist even admitted to the comments I reported, but manipulatively asserted they were for my benefit.
As you describe, I found it quite difficult to believe my own perceptions over what “the doctor” depicted and found it quite painful to detach from its tentacles. As first I felt intimidated like a captive who escaped her oppressor. (Yeah, I was a compliant-extremis.) Then I felt to blame for the rupture and that I’d defaulted on some moral obligation to submit to the therapist in the service of self-improvement. I eventually got around to seeing the guy as a vainglorious jerk. Then I got to the forehead thunking stage that I ever believed this guy had the slightest thing to offer but a shaman performance. I single-handedly might have revised the stages of grief.
I believe that social signaling often is extremely quiet and nuanced, so the damage easily can sneak up on us. We have someone promising to help our distress actually doing something different.
Theodore Dorpat’s: Gaslighting the Double Whammy has a chapter comparing psychoanalytic treatment and cult control. Any television program on cults makes me very reflective.
Thank-you for your comment. I looked at the Introduction of the Dorpat book on Amazon preview. I liked that he is a psychiatrist calling out his colleagues. it made me consider that maybe some well-intentioned therapists fail to develop ethical practice because of lack of good role models and peer support to do right by their patients/clients – rather than all of it being narcissism and similar. A friend and I once went to a public lecture on psychoanalysis that was also a CPD session for practicing therapists. It seemed to all be free association, and quite irresponsible (eg the eminent guest speaker (vainglorious jerk?) speculating that a patient of his who tripped as they left the room, and who had never tripped before, was secretly expressing their wish that the therapist hug them). My friend and I are laymen and we walked out halfway through this, but we seemed to be the only discontents – and so perhaps a trainee therapist attending that event would feel social pressure to lap up these words of wisdom. This doesn’t make it ok but it does mean some of it may not be malicious, and speaking out helps not just patients but therapists (if they are willing to hear it). I take your point re cults.
Thank-you for sharing your experience of the grievance process. That is a big relief to me. I had always wondered what might have happened if I had tried to take formal action with my red-hot recording. I just had grave misgivings that even if I could prove the facts, there’d still be some kind of manipulation. When I had first tried to report the therapist to the clinic manager, the clinic manager called me by appointment to hear me out, and the first thing he said was “X is a really good therapist, she wouldn’t do anything to hurt you, what were your concerns?”. I said to him – what is the point of calling me to investigate a complaint and beginning the discussion with a declaration of the therapist’s innocence and my being mistaken, before he even knows the facts? He apologised, and said “Ok, tell me what happened”. After that conversation I did feel like banging my head on my desk.
I think that may have been when I found this blog, and it was a ray of light. It was very helpful because it was articulate, balanced, researched, and forthright, and the comments and discussions made it a community and a dynamic resource. Thank-you again for creating it.
On power relations and domination – I’d add that my negative experience of therapy also made me a lot more sensitive to how power can be falsely implied or be real and misused in a relationship. And so I think this has changed the way I conduct my relationships for the better – in that, I try not to do that. But at the same time, this doesn’t feel like servility or abnegation of power, because it means actually knowing what power I have, whether the limits of it might be further or broader than I realise, and what an appropriate use of my power might be, and what I can do to check this or correct it if I am mistaken or discover that I am causing harm. Basically: how do I manage myself to not do to anyone else what an unethical therapist might do/have done in this situation 🙂 It has been a surprisingly positive and long-lasting outcome of that horrible therapy experience. And I’d say this blog is an example of an author and readers who are ostensibly in a position of political/professional disadvantage to the profession but who have explored the limits of this to discover room to manouevre and used it powerfully and ethically.
ZM: Thanks so much for your encouraging words. I again thank the community here for such thoughtful discussion and glad you’re part of it.
That “X is a really good therapist,” reply is so head-banging. So much thinking seems so absolute: “X is a good therapist” so he can do no wrong in their minds. They’re helping, so they can’t hurt. That worldview is so simplistic and naive, like those professionals approach the world through a child’s eyes, and not in a good way. Likewise, the conference speaker you describe sounds like a pure fabulist. The NY Times recently published a similar psychiatrist’s article: mind-reading the deep thoughts and fears of pedestrians he observed from a window. Very few commenters even questioned the nonsense.
http://www.therapyabuse.org/ has helped scores with the complaint process and can give you an informed opinion. I understand there are only a few categories of ethical transgression, so a lot of harm can fall outside these definitions and not be censured by state boards. The statements my therapist admitted to would be insults by any common definition.
It’s disturbing that it’s the consumers asking these questions. The critical thinking I see from therapists seems largely cross-fire around each other’s techniques, psycho-dynamic vs. CBT, pills vs. talk, but not about the entire paternalistic framework and wild, unfounded assumptions.
ZM, thanks again. Like you, I consider my harmful experience changing and eye-opening in so many ways. It’s changed everything I believe about charismatic figures and experts, group dynamics and compliance, science vs. popular wisdom and more. Most importantly, I’ve arrived at holding my own truths, even when an authoritative voice tells me I’m wrong. It’s been a difficult, painful lesson, but an interesting one.
I came across another post on psychotherapy as a cult: http://cigognenews.blogspot.com/2012/12/psychotherapy-as-cult.html?m=1
Looking at it from this perspective made it even more clear why the one-sided aspect of the therapist keeping their life a private mystery (so as to maintain the aura that they have special knowledge without exposing their own lives which reveal that they’re mortals who are not any better off) is such a key element of the manipulation.
Also, reflecting on how one of the brainwashed cult members committed suicide made it clearer how the consequences of investing too much faith in these things like therapy and then discovering that it was designed to exploit your vulnerability can be devastating.
ZM,
I’m glad to hear that you were able to get out of your counterproductive therapy situation without too much damage. There is a lot of research indicating that the rapport between therapist and client (some call it the therapeutic alliance) is one of the best predictors of successful therapy. The better therapists are aware of this, and are open to either trying to improve the relationship or to helping the client find another therapist who can form a better relationship with the client. So trying to change therapists if you don’t have a good working relationship is a sound thing to do — and a therapist who discourages you from doing so is at best misguided. (When I first tried therapy, in the mid 80’s, there was still a lot of talk about “resistance” and trying to distinguish it from the possibility of “incompatibility”. Unfortunately, a lot of therapists still haven’t gotten beyond that misguided thinking.)
Dear all,
I am writing again to ask if anyone has had some experience with EMDR. I know it is supposed to rewire your brain somehow, but does it have any side effects ? I had a very powerful session some months ago. I felt it has changed something deep inside, in a good way, but the some months later I had some blood tests done ( having to do with the pituitary gland, therefore with the nervous system) and they came back very bad. While there is still no explanation for them, I somehow feel they have something to do with this session, do you think this is possible ? I am saying this because the symptoms associated with the pituiatry gland-problem started precisely around that time, except that only now am I able to make the connection between the two. Thank you.
Anna, I’m lay-person, ex-client, so have no way to answer your question, nor had experience with EDMR. I’m sorry you have health issues.
Somewhat off topic, I delayed attending to physical health problems because I believed what were eventually revealed as endocrine and neurological symptoms were psychological issues I could “work through.”
Anna,
I’m no medical expert, but would guess that the pituitary problems have no relationship with the EMDR. First, it seems highly unlikely that EMDR could cause glandular changes (no plausible mechanism). Second, coincidences happen very frequently (simply because there are so many possible coincidences). Third, the pituitary problem probably started before the symptoms of the problem became apparent. In other words, if the symptoms started about the same time as the EMDR, then the pituitary problem probably started earlier.
Reblogged this on Broken Cisterns Hold No Water and commented:
Really good points.
Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately, although I had told my T from the very beginning that I had had endocrine problems in the past, she never even once brought it up, she just dismissed it as rubbish…It is so sad, given that the body matters as much as the psyche, I wish I had known that back then, but I was so enchanted with therapy, that nothing else seemed to matter…
Heavens. Endocrine problems are so important. There are so many physical conditions that cause depression and fatigue.I think they should be addressed or ruled out before the murky intervention of therapy. Even then, physical disorders are subtle and difficult to diagnose, and persist, no matter how much I’m at peace with my parents.
disequilibrium1 , so important what you said. I was dx’d with chronic lyme disease several yrs ago. It is well documented to have significant emotional and psychological impacts. Because mental and physical health are walled off from one another in our healthcare system, it’s easy to get dragged down the wrong path. How many therapists understand the emo/psych effects of chronic infectious disease (e.g. Lyme), endocrine problems, or heavy metal toxicity, to name just a few conditions.
Plus, enlightened health practitioners know that much of what takes place in the brain is influenced by the state of your gut, aka the “second brain”. If someone is presenting as “mentally ill” you can bet their gut is a mess. Even things like ADHD and autism can have direct links to gut health.
Our healthcare system is fragmented rather than integrative. Everyone is a specialist and nobody talks to anyone else. I think this manifests most noticeably in two areas — mental health and dentistry. And coincidentally these are two of the most dangerous areas of healthcare.
Fortunately there are some really great people out there who understand things holistically and can connect the dots between mind and body.
Adam, I’m sorry about the Lyme disease–I’ve heard how brutal it can be and hope you’ve found relieve from it.
There are so many physical conditions that can cause fatigue and depression, so many disorders that are difficult to diagnose, I don’t believe the possibility of a physical problem can ever be ruled out. Yet the psych industrial complex sells patients they feel bad because they’re thinking wrong, they don’t want to “do the work” to help themselves and similar shaming. I have genetic disorder that was not clearly evident until I was in my 50s, yet subtle signs were there sooner had the therapists been observant. It’s likely a mitochondrial disorder, relatively mild compared to how this can manifest, but certainly affecting energy and mood. It’s had-banging trying to explain it to doctors and nurse practitioners who don’t know about it. (Worst case was the horror story of Justina Pelletier who was taken from her parents and locked in a psych ward for over a year.)
The chronic fatigue community reports they have to fend off every manner of psych vulture and charlatan pretending to “understand” their illness, again from pure fanciful thinking rather than solid research. Thinking now is the condition is on a mitochondrial level.
Agreed about physical problems that can produce psychological symptoms. I know someone who started having psychological problems, but luckily someone told her they could be produced by a parathyroid tumor. She had her parathyroid checked out, and indeed she had a tumor (benign, but causing havoc with her hormone balance). Surgery to remove the tumor resolved the psychological problems.
I never heard a psychotherapist talk about physical problems or suggest they need to be ruled out. Yet my I had early symptoms that I trained person should have observed, particularly when face-to-face with me for those many weeks. One woman in my group therapy talked spending the weekend in bed. The therapist ridiculed her. A thyroid imbalance was never mentioned or suspected.
Sorry to hear about your own struggles. Yea lot of complex conditions and syndromes out there. Requires professionals that are truly holistic and integrative and committed to being medical detectives. Also helps if the patient becomes educated and informed. I also have chronic fatigue, debilitating much of the time. THere is fair amount of talk in the Lyme world about mitochondrial issues. Have you tried things like ALA, Coq10, NT Factor, Resveratrol, or IV NAD?
Well, though I’m glad someone talks about harm in therapy, the researchers queried least likely people to understand the subject–the therapists themselves. The result struck me as murky and naturally failed to touch fundamental flaws in the structure’s foundation. Note many of the citations are quite old.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/16506073.2014.939593
Asking therapists! A bit in here on harm from client’s perspectives (not checked if those ‘clients’ are also psychotherapists as is often the case too!)
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/20797222.2001.11433867
Kelly,
Thanks for the link. It is good that someone is finally asking clients. But I can’t help but wonder how much the “analysis” was influenced by the author’s own perspective. Possibly she might be a good therapist for some, but definitely would not be for me. I just don’t think she and I could get anywhere near to being on the same wavelength. Her “what makes therapy helpful” conclusions/recommendations sound like just another version of a “one-size-fits-all” approach to therapy — but an approach that sure doesn’t fit me. I agree that (as research suggests) the therapist-client relationship is important — but I don’t agree that there is one type of relationship that is therapeutic for all.
Her “what makes therapy harmful” conclusions/recommendations have some elements of fitting my experience, but these elements are combined with things that just seem off in a different world/culture to me. For example, “The counsellor’s selfrighteousness, judgement and critical disengagement from the clients problems, are experienced by clients as being belittled, condemned and diminished,” more or less fits with some of my harmful experience, but “A harmful counselling relationship is drained of human presence and transforming power. There is no alive human connection, no two way glow. The counsellor is experienced as insubstantial, with no solidity, no ability to hold traumatic experience or pain,” is just off in a different world than the one I know.
“I can’t help but wonder how much the “analysis” was influenced by the author’s own perspective”
Just to say – I couldn’t agree more, this kind of research, more than any either needs to be conduced by non-psychotherapists, or have a more transparent account of the authors biases and reflexive positioning….
I just scanned some of it, ugh.
I would like to see two recognitions in the field need to be made.
1) Definitely a 1 size fits all cannot be possible… even if you identify ‘common factors” holding the concept of uniqueness is vital – i think Rogers would agree….
2) There’s a high chance that therapy ‘doesn’t work’ for more people than it does
You might get that glow for a bit (I don’t trust that glow!!), coz all glows wear off, and don’t they need to be found inside and in real life, outside of the consulting room – (if that’s what you want)
No – i don’t intend on making any money as a psychotherapist, i will encourage my clients ‘to leave and get a life’ (tongue firmly in my sarcastic british cheek there)
lol
xxx
Yeah. That author had me at “client feels held in the safety of the good heart space of the counsellor.” Hear my response in a strong American accent: …. Ho boy.
Though that author interview clients, her reported results painted, opaquely with the authors’ biases. I can’t imagine words like “heart space” and “being-ness” coming out of any client’s mouth.
I agree completely. I don’t trust that glow. I think of the throngs who swear by and pay thousands to various charismatic human potential gurus. Those throngs are CERTAIN they’ve experienced something wonderful. Then they return to the guru to pay more thousands to become even more enlightened.
Scott Lilienthal talks about real science and quotes someone (I’ll find it a citation is necessary) that real science means bending over backwards to prove the theory wrong. I don’t know where one begins with being-ness.
Kelly, I am happy to see a journal article that interviews clients. And I can agree with the assessment of blatantly harmful therapists. Meanies, selfish clinicians will be harmful.
However, cynical, sardonic me is not sold on the heavens-opening-angel-choir description of effective therapy: “provides an intense beingness” and “clients noted a higher power which resulted from such a deep encounter which made both therapist and client able to transcend limitations and glimpse the highest human potential.”
That first paragraph was a zenith in convolution as was much of the description of effective therapy.
Had I been interviewed shortly after therapy, I would have had the same glow and warmth. I was convinced I’d undergone something heavenly and magnificent. I only learned later that the kangaroo pouch, while comforting, offered no real skills for effectiveness in the rough and tumble of the workplace, or life. Many people have different needs to better their lives, and this article (am I being fair?) makes it seem like love-is-all-ya-need.
But I’m a very tough customer. 🙂
You gals are fast, i didn’t read it yet! but i can imagine… i am knee deep in reading about ‘repairing ruptures in the therapeutic alliance/relationship’ (Safran)- it is linked to the idea of avoiding harm and negative outcomes… less let’s all love each other in being-ness and healthy dose of skepticism towards transference interpretations – but not seen any research asking about people’s experience…. I did just read somewhere about client’s who stay in therapy for ‘too long’ and the importance of leaving! Sorry brain scrambled right now, hope message makes sense! lol
I’ve now read the asking-therapists article. I think it does have some value — a big part of it was finding out about the therapists’ knowledge of and experience with negative effects. In particular, 94.5% of respondents said they agreed that “negative effects of psychological treatment exist and pose a problem,” whereas only 11% said that they had received information about negative effects during their basic clinical training. So this suggests that training needs to be improved considerably!
Therapists do take “ethics” courses. But from books I’ve seen, the focus is on avoiding the appearance of impropriety and defense against malpractice accusation. I see scarce mention of the ramifications of bad actions for clients. The discussion gets even murkier around deterioration, which, in the grand footsteps of Freud, can be blamed on the patient/client. No one comes out and says–hey, we’re treating adults like five-year-olds. We’re pretending to be gods. What do we expect?
A pretty decent article at psychotherapy.net: https://www.psychotherapy.net/article/therapy-failure
The authors point out mistakes therapists commonly make. A lot of them seem to be neglect of common sense and common courtesy, but nonetheless are very common problems in my experience with therapy.
I agree that common sense and common courtesy are foremost. Under the subhead of common sense I’d add humility and humaneness. I’ve seen too many therapists who infuse their practice with the sense they’re omniscient.
I know many clients think that homework assignments are helpful and groovy. However, I cringed, just reading about a therapist sending a client home with an procedural instruction in living. Maybe the client will feel a pride of accomplishment, but the underlying message is the client is perpetually accountable to The Authority simply in the act of living. It’s like having one’s adulthood annulled.
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This reaffirms my growing suspicion that psychotherapy is causing more problems than it is solving. I went to a psychologist once for social anxiety. He started digging into my past and made me feel like I was emotionally abused by my mother (Yes, he was very convincing. And, whether or not I was is irrelevant to “now”). When it became apparent to both of us that this was starting to cause a delusion he made me feel like I was lying. I started to show concerns about the field of psychotherapy and he started to go after me, using all the sensitive knowledge I gave him against me. All the stress triggered my OCD. For the next two sessions I was making believe that his therapy was working. He appeared delighted to have me a patient and “help” me; perhaps he thought he had cured me. In actuality, he broke me. Years later, the therapy still sort of haunts me. If I were unwise, I would have stood up for myself and told him this psychotherapy is B.S and walked out. But, since everything was well set up for me to look like a fool, I played along with his game until the time was right to not come again. Why did I say longer than I should have? I did it for myself because I would feel less guilty to have talked about my mom if I were to leave on a positive note. But, I can’t blame myself. I went to therapy for one problem and I left with three problems.
My final conclusion was that the psychologist is nuts and I am an idiot to listen to anything he says. Frankly, I don’t care what their textbooks say because I have not been yet convinced of any scientific proof that what they are doing is working (e.g. http://healthland.time.com/2012/11/27/can-branding-save-talk-therapy/). The local bar would have treated my social anxiety better.
Drew, I can relate. I have also realized my ex T was possibly nuts, or just not very skilled, and that most of what she said was specious. And yet I internalized her labels and assessments and it and has affected me intensely. I too am broken and haunted, also traumatized and emotionally devastated.
I read the Time article. Interesting though sometimes when I read anti-therapy stuff in the mainstream press I wonder how much is it being fueled by the Psychiatry industry and the take-no-prisoners assault on anything that threatens the biological mental illness story/myth that they need in place to sell their plastic pills.
Adam, thank you. For what it’s worth, I hope you get over this soon. No matter what your circumstance is, it’s not worth worrying and worrying endlessly. I’ve got a bad habit of this, and it always ends up being a complete waste of time. Everyone has a god given right to express their opinion. I believe you. Look for the facts… A doctor is supposed to make you feel better, correct? Do you feel better now?… I don’t think so. Does this mean that the doctor royally screwed up?… By the definition of what a doctor is supposed to do, I’d say yes. Whatever she did / whatever you said was completely fabricated by her failed therapy that would have never happened if you didn’t see her. Do you think she’d stand a chance trying to defend herself on this webpage?
BTW, point taken about the drug industry. They have plenty of shenanigans as well.
I wish I could not worry. On the contrary, it has become an obsession. It plagues me night and day. Good point, I do not think she would stand a chance of defending herself here.
Drew wrote, “A doctor is supposed to make you feel better, correct? “.
That brought to mind one session with a therapist, when I was getting especially frustrated with how much what she was doing didn’t make any sense to me. I said something like, “What is therapy anyhow?” and she replied, “I sometimes tell my patients that therapy is like magic: We talk, and you feel better.” I was (as I often was in therapy) speechless, but what ran through my head was, “When does the feeling worse stop and the feeling better begin?”
I don’t know if they think we’re really dumb, or if they’re just off in a fantasy world, or if they just get their jollies playing with us, like a cat playing with a mouse. Whatever it is, my experience was that it typically didn’t help and just made matters worse.
When I wrote “dumb” a couple of minutes ago, I meant in the sense of “stupid”, but it dawned on me that part of what I was saying was that I was so often “dumb”, in the sense of “speechless”, in therapy. So I guess there’s some irony there — the therapists often managed to “dumb me” (render me speechless) — perhaps not intentionally. But maybe those “dumbing” comments they made were a habit they developed as a kind of conditioned response, because they forestalled statements of disagreement and promoted de facto submissiveness. (That does sound cynical, but I guess I do have to consider it as a possibility.)
I highly recommend seeing the movie “Love and Mercy”, which is about Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys. It very well portrays Wilson’s relationship with his psychologist, whose “therapy” consisted of being with Wilson 24-7. The acting was Very good; from the first scene with the psychologist, my mind was immediately flooded with memories of my own former therapists, many of whom were power-hungry, controlling excuses for human beings. I’m very sure that most who see this movie will just assume that Wilson’s psychologist was just an ‘extreme’ case, not realizing that the whole field of therapy is riddled with horrible problems.
Everything in my so-called treatment was the therapists’ impulse, invention, and faith healing –a 180 contrast to a physician’s real treatment for an actual illness. The therapists convinced me they held some authority and I surrendered to their fantasia. Every moment of intervention was absolute pretentiousness that I was too credulous to discern. I feel like a patsy for buying their performances and handing them my story and vulnerability to use as instruments to swindle me.
Yeah, that therapy is nuts. The good thing is that you were able to rationalize and detect something wasn’t right. The unfortunate people who build the perception that it’s okay to be submissive to another person are really making themselves vulnerable in life, in my opinion.
That submissiveness is the key. In no way do I think its “healthy,” whatever that is, instructive, or a pathway towards competence or personal expansion. It’s merely a cash machine for the false authority who dominates.
One characteristic I love about humans is our uncanny ability to rationalize for ourselves. It is what makes us human, and I just love it. I love the fact that one day somebody said the world actually isn’t flat. This process of being skeptical and figuring things out (for what makes sense to us as individuals) is so damn important to being human. It is, in my opinion, the best tool we have to defend ourselves and fix our problems. When somebody tells you to put that tool down and “give in” to their way of thinking, they are actually not helping you at all. They are disarming you, distorting who you are and they could in fact be narcissistic ( http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20025568). It is natural to seek advice from a good friend. But, does a good friend ask you to “give in” to their way of thinking?
Resharpen, I haven’t gotten to Love and Mercy yet–a movie in which the villain is the therapist. However I did scour the internet to see if a professional might stick his neck out to discuss therapist Eugene Landy’s methods and I found–zilch. I’d think high-profile cautionary tale a good occasion to discuss ethics among the profession and with the public. So I will: “Folks, if your psychotherapist moves into your home and takes over a share of your business this might be a red flag.”
In the end, people struggling through life-issues (and you’re not human or haven’t lived if you haven’t struggled) are looking for love, understanding, compassion, and change. No-one can change the past but some can offer love, understanding, and compassion. Why would anyone trust compassion and understanding from someone who charges by the hour any more than they would believe love and affection coming from a prostitute (Hurry up and put your clothes back on, so someone else can use the room). Am not being facetious here… but people should seriously consider a dog if they lack friends or family for emotional support. When I feel down or troubled, my dog looks up at me and wags his tail and looks at me with kind eyes. My spirits rise immediately. He’s also a great listener. Better yet, he doesn’t charge a fee. My advice… Please consider visiting a local shelter and offer a home to one of the thousands of dogs that need homes. So many wonderful dogs needs homes. You will likely find the best friend you’ve ever known… one offers true love, compassion, and understanding. Here is one of many beautiful articles about how dogs have helped soldiers struggling with post traumatic stress disorder… http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-dogs-can-help-veterans-overcome-ptsd-137582968/?no-ist
Jim, I’m with you on the value of a dog’s (or pet’s) companionship. In addition to being great listeners and regarding us as rock stars, they have such a wonderful sense of play and joie de vivre which is contagious. And their enthusiasm for being with us doesn’t clock out at 50 minutes.
News flash: a few psychotherapists have decided that treatment might cause harm. As usual, they merely skim the surface, speak for the client rather than with him and do ample client-blaming. And of course it was “difficult to answer” how clinicians assessed whether treatment had negative effects.The research survey yielded no more than 5 percent responses. Note the references went back to the the 1950s-1980s.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16506073.2014.939593#.VZmUYkbIDKH
A psych activist James Coyne banquet:
https://jcoynester.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/what-we-need-to-do-to-redeem-the-psychotherapy-research/
Another Coyne summary on another blog:
http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2014/06/10/salvaging-psychotherapy-research-manifesto/
The full article:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/266020903_Salvaging_psychotherapy_research_a_manifesto
Home page to his blog with more articles, links and space for comment:
https://jcoynester.wordpress.com/
Before my blog of discontent, there was Frederick Crews. I understand he converted from being an enthusiastic Freudian analysand to being a disgruntled ex-patient. While enthralled he even taught University level level literature through a Freudian lens. He went on to throw bricks through Freud’s window through a series of articles and books.
I understand most psych professionals disavow undiluted Freud these days, his foundational thinking and techniques certainly still malinger in his raft of unsubstantiated speculation and practice Psychodynamic therapy, psychoanalysis-lite still incorporates many of Freud’s unsubstantiated principles. I find Crew’s points still relevant, even if the heyday of psychoanalysis has passed. He launched his arguments in two essays in New York Review of Books which were later published in http://www.amazon.com/The-Memory-Wars-Freuds-Dispute/dp/0940322048.
Some links:
All about Crews
http://human-nature.com/articles/crews.html
Transcript of a PBS interview
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health-jan-june99-freud_crews/
A blogger continues Crews’ discussion
http://web.csulb.edu/~kmacd/paper-CrewsFreud.html
Most of this is very perceptive and I agree. However not all therapists are like this and there is a move to change.
I so agree there is little in the literature about the critique of therapy and its harmful affects on clients. Shockingly so. There is also an good book called “in Session” by Deborah Lott.
There can be an arrogance that the profession is always right, and they do have a tendency to find a dysfunction of personality in every situation. Also if you want to discuss anything to do with the therapy there may be a reaction of hostility, threats of therapy cancelled or this is your pattern. What concerns me is the power some therapist throw around without thought to morals. Yes they may Sed righteously hide behind boundaries and ethics, but is it actually helping the client? Is it moral. Each individual client needs to be considered. Just a note that psychologists, psychiatric nurses and psychiatrists work very differently to counsellors. Can’t compare them. Counsellors not usually employed in the mental health system.
It’s interestingly there are so few critique books, at least the Lott book (and another I can’t remember) were written by journalists. I personally feel an arrogant, patriarchal, dehumanizing tone in psych literature I’ve read and the discussions I’ve had with professionals on their blogs and in book review discussions. They’ve been marvelous, defensive debaters with an evident need to prevail, largely incurious about viewpoints such as you read here.
The precedent of Freud, who called his patients “rabble” seems to be as strong as ever.
I can’t fathom or characterize a large, unseen universe. But from what I personally observe, I conclude that their unvalidated practices and defensive arrogance may be less a characteristic of the “bad apples” and more a flavor of a wider culture.
It’s been a while since I posted here (as SLV). Not sure if I spoke of my findings re my mind-boggling experience with therapists and my ex-relationship. You may recall I was in harmful couples therapy, I didn’t have much luck with individual therapy or consultations either.
Long story short, what I found (thanks to someone who’s NOT a therapist) is that I was involved with a narcissist, quite possibly a psychopath (he is. no-one diagnosed him, but hell, he is one). None of the therapists even hinted at that possibility, the most helpful one identified his actions as emotional abuse at the same time providing a badge of an Adult Child of an Alcoholic, which became his main pity ploy ever since. And he even went to therapy – which basically resulted in humiliating me in more sophisticated ways testing how much callousness and sadistic behaviour I was willing to explain away by his victim status and wallowing in pleasure watching my cognitive dissonance.
Problems with identifying abusive behaviour seem to be not so infrequent among mental health specialists. I recently found this discussion, for example: https://www.facebook.com/NarcissisticVictimSyndrome/posts/787175864732986. One of the people there even compared the dynamics of a client-therapist relationship with the dynamic of narcissistic abuse. In another forum for abuse survivors someone noticed that narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths are (almost always) impossible to treat anyway, so the business has to feed off their victims. INTERESTING THOUGHT. It may well be true, though I think in the case of particular therapists it is probably more ignorance than conspiracy…
Looking back at my encounters with mental health professionals, I exhibited really classic signs of a victim of narcissistic abuse, I reported many typical red flags. But I was never once told I might be involved with a human predator (of course, it would be enough if they said I was abused but NOT label him a victim at the same time OR it would suffice if they recommended me the right read, just in case, even if they’re not sure).
I don’t know if any of you are familiar with Lundy Bancroft’s book “Why does he do that?”, which is a study of abusive men. The book is great and should be obligatory read for any woman. In the book, Bancroft speaks of why couples counseling is not a good idea for anyone involved with an abuser. (But first you have to know you are with one, if you don’t – you’re in deep sh..) He also debunks myths about how traumatic childhood leads to inflicting trauma on others or about abusers having problems with “anger management”. The book was published in 2004, but it seems like not much has changed since then.
After I discovered what I had been involved with, I decided to let my former psychologists know trying to spread awareness about abuse. My college psychologist expressed regret I had “not found my answers with her” and happiness that I did on my own… She also told me she’s been interested in the subject the last few years (hmm, we had therapy some 2-3 years ago, why didn’t it cross her mind?) and wonders how to spot such people and defend ourselves against them, etc. And told me one of the characteristics we can measure is that they have no empathy. I’m not sure if she was being brief or exposing her ignorance (the problem is they fake empathy and they have no conscience, they will lie, project, manipulate and so on, empathy is not exactly a telling clue). Another psychologist told me (she even wrote it in bold and underlined) she did not agree the topic of narcissistic abuse is neglected. And that I have every right to be disappointed but I should wonder whether I am not doing a disservice to the victims by the tone of my mail (I still don’t get how, as I was writing to her, not anyone else) as it might discourage someone from seeking help, which could result in alcohol or death… And told me to think if I’m not misrepresenting the whole profession; she wrote “have you wondered about those cases when a psychologist saved someone’s life?”. What does that have to do with anything?
The couples therapist, who retraumatised me, didn’t even bother to answer me. She prefers to pretend nothing ever happened and she had no part in this – although she was not “just” unhelpful but abusive.
So basically therapists see no problem, even though those who specialise in domestic violence see it. From my perspective, the issue is clearly neglected – an abusive relationship is one of the most dangerous things that can happen, I don’t understand why it’s not prioritised. Spotting a person with a personality disorder or their victim seems to be too much to ask from a professional even after giving them an extensive list of red flags. I really don’t know what those people learn during their studies. I thought cluster B personalities (narcs, p-paths) were absolutely mandatory in the curriculum. Seems like maybe they don’t believe such people actually do exist, or maybe it IS one big conspiracy after all. I don’t know… Sorry for the rant. I’m disappointed and disgusted.
Do NOT apologize. I agree with you completely. I have never heard one therapist ever admit to being wrong, to genuinely admitting they had ‘missed’ something during the therapy, etc. What do they learn in school? Beats me. I just researched curriculum for an MSW program ((Boston College). Coursework heavy in things like : History of the profession; Public Policy; Research and Analysis; Addictions; etc. There are courses in things like Personality Disorders, but think they should cram the first four into One course, make students take Many courses in practicum, where they see real, live troubled people in the flesh, and watch some ‘master’ perform good counseling on them. And let them critique it with the master; Most importantly, ASK THE CLIENTS how THEY felt about it. I bet THAT never happens.
More bad news. Now, many, many MSW programs are entirely ON-LINE. Yep. Boston College’s website says it will dismiss any student for unethical, etc., conduct. HOW in the world can they watch or know any student’s conduct, if they never meet or see them???? As usual, they just care about the almighty dollar. They don’t care if the public gets screwed by their graduates who are flakes. And to make us shed more tears, projections show that this profession will grow by 20 percent in the future!
As for books on abuse, an excellent one:
Emotional Abuse, Silent Killer of Marriage; a Thirty-Year Abuser Speaks Out,
by Austin James. Author takes a deep look at his abuse after wife dumps him; show s how he changed.
Love this quote: Many years ago the distinguished MIT linguist/activist Noam Chomsky said: “One waits in vain for psychologists to state the limits of their knowledge.”
http://tanadineen.com/writer/writings/FMSNewsletter.htm
The more I reflect on my therapy experience, the more it feels like feels like the aftermath of a cult. The god-like figure who subtly imparts his demand obedience to him and the doctrine, the magical thinking, the purification ritual, the atoning aspect feel more like superstition, occult or pseudotheology than “health care.”
I found nothing curative or even real about it. My so-called treatment was all predicated on delusion–particularly the therapist’s.
resharpen,
Thanks for the book recommendation – sounds interesting.
I recently learnt that in my country some post-secondary schools offer a 1-year course in psychology, which supposedly prepares you to work as a counsellor or a psychologist. You don’t even need to have passed your secondary school leaving exam (Matura), which is something very basic if you want to consider yourself a decently educated person, and it’s normally a shame if you don’t pass it. So… it’s getting worse.
I have a friend who is a 58-yo retired psychologist. She is depressed and takes antidepressants. She was considering therapy and even asked ME what I thought about it… LOL, even though back then she didn’t know about my experiences with therapy. She told me she could use therapy, but she knows the mental health environment and that it would be hard to come across a competent person. So, as far as I know, she only takes those drugs. A few months later I even asked her if she wanted me to return the self-help book she’d lent me, about battling depression with CBT, and she told me she knew it all by heart. And that what she was saying was unprofessional, but true – only drugs helped her, but told me to keep searching since I’m “still young”. I took it that with a bit of luck I might find an illusion that serves me 😀 What’s also interesting about this lady is that despite her experience, she’s never worked as a therapist as she thinks it’s a very delicate job and requires tonnes of responsibility and she wouldn’t feel up to it. I never noticed that kind of humility in any therapists I encountered, especially not the 32-yo couples therapist.
Btw, my ex couples therapist wrote me back saying she’d been keeping silent because her supervisors advised her so, but that she wasn’t indifferent. She wrote she knew no therapy without mistakes. And that what happened is a signal for her to think what she did wrong, but also for me – why it was impossible to help me despite her wanting to help me. [So you see, there’s progress – now it’s not just me to blame, but it might be also her.] And that her job involves telling people what they may not want to hear, but it’s just its nature. Oh, and she answered my mail finally because it was different in tone from the previous two (the previous two were direct but not derogatory, in the last one I wondered whether she got them or she wasn’t open to dialogue) – it’s like I have to hold myself back from expressing my thoughts/feelings to deserve an answer, after all the malicious remarks and arrogance I faced from her in therapy. She also wrote that I wasn’t open to dialogue – how is that possible, since she kicked me out of therapy and then didn’t answer my mails? And that she wouldn’t continue the mail exchange, as she just doesn’t speak to clients this way. Oh, last but not least, a majority of satisfied clients give her a better overview of her work than my one complaint. So much for welcoming feedback.
Disequilibrium1, it does feel like the aftermath of a cult. And the client is the scapegoat – I was simply scapegoated by my couples therapists. If you’re familiar with the Girardian mimetic theory, a scapegoat is needed whenever there’s a problem in a community to release the tension. I was the easiest target in the couples therapy setting. And the client is always the easy target, they’re the only target in a 1-to-1 situation. To be fair, from my talks with others who have faced the same trauma (narcissistic abuse), a lot of them couldn’t find adequate help, but there are also some who could and value therapy as milestones in their healing journey. But they’re normally talking about therapists specialising in trauma, recommended by domestic violence hotlines etc., who are aware and wary of the dynamics involved in unequal relationships of any kind, and it’s probably what sets them apart. Unfortunately it’s not a standard in therapy in general.
selviafr, I see psychotherapy and its attendant problems in everyday human terms. A student wants to help people, or thinks she does, and sets out to be trained as a therapist. From what I see –please correct me if I’m wrong–the training,much jargon, diagnoses and clinical procedure–seems largely disconnected to the problems we face in living. And no schooling confers life wisdom on anyone.
So enter the client with Life Problems, often unrealistic expectations, seeking a fix from the therapist. By that time, the therapist has learned a to perform as some sort of sage that who can help with this Suffering. And maybe the therapist with all these adoring, idolizing clients starts to believe her own publicity after a while.
So I see the therapist doing just what the Queen Bee, who convinced her followers she was really hot stuff, did in junior high. But therapy ain’t the high school cafeteria any more.
I’m usually careful to couch things in terms of my own experience, and I’m generalizing more than usual today. Anyone free to disagree. However I base my impressions on books and blogs and my own experience. I’ve seen little humility or grounded humanness in the psych writings I’ve read. So much of it is an oracle act.
Disequilibrium,
I can also speak based on my experience and reading, which will be limited. And it mostly revolves around the subject of abuse, because of my situation. So it’s just one perspective, however the experience with mental health professionals was vast enough to draw some conclusions about their attitude. I first saw a psychologist when my parents were getting divorced, I was a teenager, it was standard procedure. [I discount the time I was 6 and a psychologist had to assess whether I could go to school one year earlier – although he was a family friend, I didn’t like him for some reason and drew him naked. Well, I guess I always had some dislike toward them, perhaps sensing that all the assessment and labeling is not “natural” to human psyche, so I had to shame him back.] Anyways, the “divorce” psychologists struck me as rigid, they later described me as a non-conformist – I only wish I had been more non-conforming and not seek their advice is my adult life. They labeled every family member this or that and it eludes me still what the point was. My parents got divorced anyhow, 2 years later they got back together anyhow to continue their toxic relationship.
Anyways, I didn’t really ever meet a humble psychologist. Even one that seemed very considerate and empathetic turned out to not so open (the one who asked me to consider whether I wasn’t misrepresenting the profession and doing a disservice to potential clients.) My college psychologist was neutral, nice – I think she’s a good example of what you’re talking about – she totally didn’t use common sense, but instead analysed bits and pieces of my childhood (usually the same over and over) or told me some stories from her daily life to illustrate her points. But the stories, although from her life, seemed contrived or overanalysed. She was sticking to her rigid patterns instead of using her brains. I almost felt like it bothered her too. She was around 60, so I think her life experience was much more valuable than whatever she learnt at school, but perhaps it’s against guidelines to use common sense over psychological theories.
In many cases, psychologists analysed me deeply knowing little about me. And when I say deeply, I don’t mean they actually took time to think. I am scared they are not used to thinking but they like to label. And how am I going to verify whether their theory (about childhood whatever – usually a childhood so distant one is bound to forget) is right? It either sits with me or not, and if it doesn’t, I’m in denial. Their shallow-deep analysis brought in nothing significant – this is the problem. After I was done with mental health industry, I did a lot of reading, I talked to people who faced the same issues as me – and I am having realisations of my own, about my childhood and how it affected the rest of my life etc. YES, about childhood. THEIR kind of thing. But I am having them without a therapist, based on the wisdom of experienced people, some of whom have been in therapy. And they are NOT the ”insights” my therapists fed me in the past. So I think there might be some wisdom and utility to psychotherapy, but many times it is simply misapplied. Because of their omniscient attitude and, I dare say, often times they probably don’t understand their theories themselves. Otherwise they wouldn’t be ”connecting the dots” in such a sloppy manner. They don’t ”feel” those theories, they just learnt them by heart.
I agree the jargon, theories and diagnoses are removed from normal life and reduce human life and experience to a set of technical issues. So of course, treating a person as if they were a piece of IKEA furniture won’t make sense. There are, however, instances, where their formal knowledge and labels would come in handy – and that is my former situation. The problem with narcissists and psychopaths is that a regular person can’t fathom they exist and are among people we know. We can’t normally imagine a person without a conscience and therefore we apply human traits to abusers, trying to understand their mentality, which results in further harm. And here, a mental health professional operating with jargon and labels would be very welcome, because they are supposed to know what a narcissistic personality disorder is, what traits a psychopath possesses, how they operate. It’s actually very valuable knowledge, because – due to our own humanity – we cannot sort them out when they’re close. So pinning them down would definitely help. Or pinning down the victim – because there is even a narcissistic victim syndrome, so it’s not like it’s rocket science. But ”specialists” prefer to talk about ‘childhood’, totally disregarding the client’s context, as if the problems existed only in their head. And it’s just a matter of ”switching” into a different mode or ”realising” something. That mode and the realisation will inevitably be self-deprecating, because if nothing is really the problem and it’s all in my head, it means there’s something wrong with my head.
I also met psychologists who were quite shallow in their approach and gave dismissive answers to my problems, not digging deeper, not asking more questions, simplifying the issue and acting surprised it wasn’t over. I think the problem is many health professionals do NOT focus on the present and the current predicament of the client. On what IS. When I sought professional help, I wanted them to help me sort out ”what IS”, the current situation, so I could have an overview of it. They seemed not to have understood nor respected that need. They just didn’t CARE about the situation, its complexity, its relation to my daily life and emotional state. They were not interested in understanding the overt, they were only ‘interested’ in the covert (in me, of course). They were not interested in connecting the dots in the present, they only cared about relating a dot from my present to a dot from my past. I think it’s impossible to solve anything that way, because it’s the present that affects us and ‘binds’ us. You have to start with the outer layer and not the core.
In my view, psychotherapy got it all wrong. Or backwards. While my problems or all the problems in the world may stem from childhood, it is a current manifestation I am suffering from and it’s very real. I’m not an island and my circumstances, along with other people do affect me, and I have all range of experiences, stages and problems in life, even though I had only one childhood. I think childhood or other deep theories should be brought in as last, as CORE issues to help understand oneself to make better choices in the future. But I’m not the only one creating my reality, we are very much part of society, family, environments and it affects us more than times long gone. I think first we need to understand the context, because the context is what we’re embedded in, what affects us immediately and what we can see – so understand normal, daily stuff – crappy job, bad economy, nasty neighbours, an ill family member, a toxic spouse, lack of time to pursue a passion, etc. Understand the whole and how it affects us, and only then focus on why we are in such and such place in this whole and if it was at all possible to end up elsewhere. But, I think, a lot of ”specialists” want to impress (themselves?) and find connections and patterns where there aren’t any or – even if there are – they’re just a little thread of the web the client is caught up in and therefore of no practical use. But tell them that and they’ll imply you’re resistant, immature, whatever
Selvaifr,
Thanks for the link to the Facebook Narcissistic Victim pages. I essentially binged-read it. So sad that a) so many therapists don’t pick up on the possibility that maybe the majority of the problem lies with the other person’s behavior, and b) so many entries point how the clients notices the narcissistic behavior in the therapist.
Mary S,
Once you’ve learnt about narcissistic abuse, it becomes easy to spot narcissistic behaviours in others, where otherwise you would just give the person the benefit of the doubt. My couples therapist didn’t seem a full-blown narcissist when I met her, but the way she handled the therapy was definitely narcissistic. Like Disequilibrium says, they become used to believing in their omniscient powers. I don’t know the details of my therapist’s work or history, but psychotherapy isn’t her only job, she also engages in ergotherapy and teaches clinical psychology in a psychotherapy institute. So the hours she’s worked as a psychotherapist are probably limited and her experience is not that vast. She could have had the opinion of herself as a great specialist, and she sometimes let it slip through her jokes. So she was a bit of a narcissist about that – however being proud of your work or even boastful doesn’t mean you’ll disregard criticism in the face of challenge – you can choose to improve your skills or preserve your image. She chose to preserve her ego – and fragile ego is a sign of a narcissist. There was, in fact, no real threat to her ego – all she had to do was admit she didn’t know. No one would think less of her because of that, quite the opposite – it would have been the ethical thing to do. But she chose to play pretend. Like she was so convinced she couldn’t be wrong or that some things were beyond her scope of knowledge or experience that she had to keep up appearances. So preserving your image, failing to look at your part objectively and shifting the blame onto others is just classic narcissism. And the way she did it is also classic – intimidate, play things down, ignore things you don’t want to deal with, shame the other person, make THEM take responsibility. It’s very easy in the setting where you have the power. She was more interested in her image of a great therapist than in helping someone in need. And, when I met her, she didn’t come across as a particularly egocentric person, she seemed rather nice and open. But still, my problem was such a perceived threat to her ego that she chose her ego over “primum non nocere”. It makes me wonder a couple of things:
1) for her ego to be so fragile she can’t be all that convinced about the quality of her work. The person who knows they are good at something is confident and eager to improve. And they know they’re good because they get feedback and they see results. Psychotherapy is such a discipline, where this feedback is not so clear-cut. It’s not clear how long it should take the patient to improve and when he does, the progress can be attributed to many other things apart from therapy and therapist, that it may be hard to establish the impact of therapy. Some patients don’t improve and the therapist has to explain it somehow too. There are so many blank spaces there that some therapists probably have to build an illusion of their greatness to continue to feel good about themselves professionally, instead of considering that the job and the discipline they chose may not be all it was cracked up to be. Thus, they end up with an inflated ego so they don’t have to look at the blank spaces.
2) It is a requirement, at least in my country, that a therapist has undergone their own therapy before they start their practice. Their issues should not interfere with the client’s. What is the use of that if my therapist told me I “angered” her and that’s why she took the side of my ex in some cases – isn’t it childish? It’s sandbox mentality. Isn’t it shameful to admit such a thing unabashedly and not see it as wrong or unprofessional? Well, I can’t help but think of a child in adult skin, again, arrested development, which is essentially narcissism. Perhaps there is some deeper connection between the fact that so many therapists act as narcissists and the fact they are so unwilling/unable to spot narcissists.
Just because a therapist “has” to have undergone therapy means nothing to me. Their own therapist could have been as “beneficial” as the ones we have discussed here; and/or if either the student therapist or the ‘elder’ therapist she sees, is a narcissist, then she can just manipulate herself to achieve her goals, etc.
selviafr, I completely agree with your point that therapists are extremely unlikely to receive accurate feedback about their interventions. Beyond the fact the quality of a life is on an “uncontrolled” continuum, I think there’s a high likelihood of indoctrination, persuading the client to give the therapist the feedback she desires. I certainly did that. Not to mention all that attention and coddling creates a temporary optimism, just like many of us like to feel on New Year’s Eve. New book, new page, I AM REBORN. But we’re not.
In contrast, an orthopedist has evidence of an incorrectly treated broken leg.
And yes, therapists receiving their own therapy: destructive and ineffective therapists are products of their own defective factories.
selviafr,
To add to your point (1): I think there is also a lot of denial, as well as the lack of feedback.
As for the feedback problem: Now with the web, it is potentially possible to get more feedback to therapists, and in a form that also gives useful information to prospective clients. If I am shopping for a new lawn mower, I can find web reviews that give pros and cons for different makes and models — very helpful to make a decision on what type fits my particular needs. And college students have Rate-Your-Professor type websites that give them information from other students on different professors’ strong points and weak points, so they can make an informed decision or at least know what they’re getting into. Sure, some people give uninformative reviews (“Great!” or “Horrible!”) in both cases, and certainly would for therapists as well. But if a site encourages specifics rather than just summary judgments, it is likely to get more informative (and hence helpful) reviews. And these are also useful feedback for manufacturers, teachers, whatever. But when I have seen sites with reviews of therapists, they contain all glowing comments … with perhaps some small print saying that some responses were omitted because they were “inappropriate or negative”. So it sounds like there is some censoring. That does a disservice to clients in three ways: They aren’t able to make an informed decision, the therapists don’t get useful feedback to help them improve, and the worst ones don’t get weeded out. I’d like to see therapist organizations (whether existing or ad hoc) provide websites that give useful feedback.
Mary S,
It almost seems like it’s too much to expect a site with adequate and useful feedback – because therapy feels somewhat of a cult and doesn’t treat client feedback seriously but has their own explanation for client’s dissatisfaction. In my country, there’s a big website for posting patients’ reviews and I posted there too. The review was negative, it went through, although not without some problems – I got an impression like they weren’t exactly clear on what they accepted, although my review didn’t break any rules. So it was accepted in the end, but I know that on the same site people have had problems with publishing negative reviews, so I guess it depends on the doctor/therapist. I set up the profile for my therapist to review her, so she for sure didn’t have any connections with the site. Some months later glowing reviews started popping up – a few months there was nothing, only mine, then suddenly new ones got added every couple of days, then some few weeks of silence and again – a few new glowing reviews, almost at once. And some of them expressing surprise at the experience of the first reviewer. Not sure if she told her patients to write them or wrote it herself or whatever. They didn’t sound genuine – no doubt she has satisfied patients, but the reviews just didn’t come across as natural.
And like Diseq said, clients may feel obligated or persuaded to review their therapist positively. They may lack awareness about what they can expect – well, indeed, many times it’s so fuzzy it’s hard to say what we can expect of a therapeutic process (unless it’s maybe some more crystalised therapies like a 12-step CBT or things like that). My therapist came across as a person who has coffee with her clients; indeed, she always treated me to coffee. What I mean is at her best (or: on her best behaviour) she was a person who listened to you over coffee, showed understanding and chatted back. At her best, I say, until the problem turned out to be a little more than what you’d expect of your cousin/friend over coffee. But if people come to her with problems she CAN handle or at least THINKS she can handle, she probably gives them this chat over coffee treatment and it genuinely helps them, so they are satisfied. The effect could be almost the same as having coffee with a friend, but a friend is maybe not so patient or would like to discuss their things too or doesn’t have time. The therapist has time, will listen, the client will feel understood and maybe will even come up with some solutions, “see the light” as they finally devote an hour to themselves in a nice coffee atmosphere. Yeah, it can work, but it has its limitations – it’s limited by the therapist’s scope of knowledge and, primarily, by her ego.
resharpen,
I agree with your comment that having had therapy oneself is no guarantee that someone will be a good therapist.
selviafr,
Good point about how therapy can be helpful for people whose problems are the kind of thing you might talk over with a friend over a cup of coffee, but where a therapist has the advantage of giving you undivided attention. Unfortunately, not all people go to therapy for that reason – yet the profession does seem to make claims of being helpful for more serious problems. So there needs to be more “truth in advertising.” As you say, the first kind of therapy is limited by the therapist’s knowledge and ego. And I think sometimes therapists (especially the ones with big egos) get indignant (or blame the client) when you don’t respond favorably to their perceived wisdom, warmth, or whatever. The “profession” seems very unprofessional.
Mary S,
Exactly. I remember very well how the couples therapist was indignant at me not readily accepting her theories/explanations. In the beginning she seemed open, but later she became annoyed and started taking it personally. Instead of being investigative, she chose to control me – by silencing, shaming, jokingly calling me a but-woman, or angrily saying I was fussy and hard to please. You mention warmth – yes, once she said “you must have felt (this or that)” and seeing I wasn’t reacting to it but moving on, she repeated more firmly “I said: you must have felt (this or that)”, as if she was expecting me to be grateful to her (faked) understanding, after months of mocking and disrespect. WTF? It’s beyond me how anyone can let themselves behave like that – you have to be shameless to do that You said it right – the profession is unprofessional.
I’ve yet to see a mental health professional respond directly to any doubts or questions I’ve had about their interventions. All they can do is lash out with ad hominem comments. I see the huckster beside his medicine wagon, “ladies and gentlemen, we have a woman with no faith.”
resharpen said:
“Just because a therapist “has” to have undergone therapy means nothing to me. Their own therapist could have been as “beneficial” as the ones we have discussed here; and/or if either the student therapist or the ‘elder’ therapist she sees, is a narcissist, then she can just manipulate herself to achieve her goals, etc.”
Definitely agree. It could mean something but how do you know. All sorts of things can go wrong in therapy. It’s sort of like the way dysfunction and sickness gets handed down thru generations in families.
I watched a short YT video and read some articles by the supervisor/therapist of the therapist who left me in ruins. Very patronizing and infantilizing and filled with idealistic and self-serving platitudes. I imagined my T laying on the couch and absorbing all this, then regurg’ing it to clients.
diseq said:
“selviafr, I completely agree with your point that therapists are extremely unlikely to receive accurate feedback about their interventions.”
Yes and apart from how they would receive feedback, here in the U.S. there really is no mechanism to give feedback in the first place. At least not in my experience. And I’ve never been to a T that solicited any from me. There’s always Yelp but that seems to be seen as off limits for reviewing therapists. Somehow they are in some magical realm where this sort of review is not kosher. I would love to give an honest and balanced review of my T on Yelp.
AdamP,
What you said about your therapist’s supervisor makes me think of initiation rituals in hierarchical organisations, such as army, fraternity, that kind of thing – first you get disrespected, then you can proudly disrespect others.
Yelp makes me think of the show “Web Therapy”. Not sure if anyone here has watched the show – it’s comedy and it’s really good, imho. The main character, played by Lisa Kudrow, is an abominable therapist – manipulative, cunning, malicious. The show is funny and the disturbed protagonist was obviously created in such a way that she leaves the viewers in awe of both her cleverness and her lack of remorse. It’s designed as cartoonish yet it felt strangely familiar.
This is a most interesting blog. I know 4 people helped by therapy don’t know why just 2. I found it Ok years ago to talk to
Years later when it was time to process and improve, therapy was not useful for that. When I looked into it 18 ninths ago I was told insurance taking therapists aren’t as good. Not fair to those who are good.
Five years ago a therapist said I won’t judge you if you have an affair or do something immoral. This is just a sham. Maybe you should judge that just a lttle bit. Maybe tell someone they could get hurt. My values tell me affars are wrong. Common sense tells me not to go where I might gt hurt. Therapists never told me I could get hurt. I guess I have more ethics then some therapists.
Therapists don’t seemed to have figured out how “unconditional positive regard” thing when a client does something ill-advised. Hurting others does have consequences. And because therapists are not present and only hear one side they’re not in a position to make a normal, human assessment of a client’s decisions and dilemmas.A “victim” sometimes creates his own difficulties.
A wonderful articles list from Sigrun, one of the first commenters here.
http://bivirk.blogspot.no/2014/12/litteraturliste.html
Diseq,
Thanks for the link. One article that caught my attention is Leitner et al, Patient’s perceptions of risky developments during psychotherapy, available from http://www.zora.uzh.ch/69327/. It seemed quite good, and supported the point other researchers have found that the therapist/client relationship is important in reducing the risk of harm from psychotherapy.
Professor Keith Laws gave a talk recently on the bullshit research that is being used to prop up a case for CBT for psychosis in England.
The British Psychological Society and the National Institute for Clinical Excellence appear to be in cahoots to prop up a series of lies.
You can watch his lecture at youtube
These people are shameless. No evidence. None.
Multi-million £ scam.
Thanks so much, Jane. I’ve only begun the video. But the link to the Lilienfeld paper on Causes of Spurious Therapy Effectiveness warrants repeating.
Click to access Lilienfeld-et-al-Why-ineffective-psychotherapies-appear-to-work-a-taxonomy.pdf
Thanks for the link to the Lillienfeld article. It’s interesting, and includes things that therapists need to be aware of, but in most cases probably aren’t aware of.
I hadn’t entirely finished the Lilienfeld et al paper last night when I posted my comment on it. I finished it today, but was left with the thought that empirically supported treatments often seem like procrustean beds that the client is deformed to fit. For the heck of it, I did a web search on “psychotherapy procrustes bed” and came up with an article by Arnold Lazarus titled “Clinical/Therapeutic Effectiveness: Banning the Procrustean Bed and Challenging Ten Prevalent Myths”. (It’s easy to find by searching, so I won’t give a URL — I find those just make this website take longer to load.) He does give the impression that it is possible to use empirically supported treatments, but in a way that is not a procrustean bed, but that instead is tailored and integrated with other things to fit the client. That’s what therapy should be! (But, not entirely sanguinely, there is still the problem that there aren’t empirically supported treatments to fit all clients’ problems; although possibly if I had found someone like Lazarus to begin with, therapy might have been effective for me. But once I acquired a history of “negative effects,” I became much more difficult to help.)
My search yielded me the entire Lazarus chapter to which Mary refers.It has a nice critique of many therapy myths, but believes that cognitive technique saves the day. It seems though that diaphragmatic breathing and other calming techniques doesn’t require a therapist or someone with an advance degree to teach.
http://tinyurl.com/nw23s6b
Thanks again, Jane. I have so many responses it’s difficult to begin. First is my amazement that mental health professionals, that body posing as exquisite experts on the human mind, seem gobsmacked at the suggestion that “talking” might be harmful. I thought…the industry rose to heal the rest of us from distress that was largely caused by talking. And that most psych enterprises are largely about abuses around….talking?
I’m not surprised so few studies even acknowledge harmful effects. (Laws said two out of 50.) It’s headbanging that the mental health discipline is so much salesmanship rather than science.
There are patient forums on the net with plenty of narratives about harm in therapy. And when a provider fancies himself a wondrous shaman, an appeasing client often will collaborate with the dominant person’s need.
Jane,
Thanks for the link. This really is disturbing, but it ‘s good to see that Laws is pointing it out.
But, speaking of psychological societies engaging in questionable behavior: In July, a report was released giving evidence that the American Psychological Association had changed its ethics guidelines to support the participation of its members in developng “enhanced interrogation” methods such as waterboarding. (Search on APA Hoffman Report to get lots of links.)
There was a major NY Times coverage on this. They give non-subscribers 10 free monthly articles, or the Times will be in library electronic databases.
Can’t find the NY Times comment. but a reader pointed out that at least high-ranking APA leaders who condoned the torture policy specialized in teaching and writing about–ethics.
Adam: so sorry to hear of your situation. Have you ever taken medication? I have, and it definitely has changed my life for the better. I know many are against this; I want to explain I am NOT advocating this for everyone. For me, it was the opposite of the disgusting fare that the therapists tried to slam down my throat.
“Adam: so sorry to hear of your situation. Have you ever taken medication? I have, and it definitely has changed my life for the better. I know many are against this; I want to explain I am NOT advocating this for everyone. For me, it was the opposite of the disgusting fare that the therapists tried to slam down my throat.”
—
Resharpen, thanks. Tried meds a long time ago, and for just a few weeks. Had intolerable side effects. Since then have done quite a bit of reading and I don’t think I could ever do it given what I’ve read. I would need a trustworthy Dr to make a very compelling case, but how could they given that the whole basis for psych meds seems to be a debunked myth?
Glad the meds are helping you. When did you start taking them and has it been continuous?
Though empirically supported treatments seem a darling of an industry segment, I don’t see people on psych forums praising them. Clients reported they were condescending, rigid, reductionist, formulaic, assuming all will be will if the client just changes his attitude. The industry so often seems wrapped in their own self-congratulations they leave the customer out of the conversation.
Somewhere in deepest Africa there is a colony of fleas living in the hairy ass of a baboon which, collectively, have more of an ethical sense than the British Psychological Society.
Jane, judging from the outcome of my own complaint, that nearly all therapists I’ve met via internet flee like rabbits from the specific questions I raise (inevitably deflecting through ad hominem attacks )and a recent therapy “ethics” book that outright ridicules clients, I conclude from my perch that ethics is a scarce commodity in therapy industry. I use that word industry quite deliberately with all its connotations of marketing and salesmanship. The American Psychological Association had its own recent exposing regarding its policy on torture.
Flea indeed. Or flee.
Someone recommended me this article while talking about issues other than therapy, however reading it I couldn’t help but think of my therapy (now officially crazy-making): http://www.psychotherapy.com.au/fileadmin/site_files/pdfs/TheDoubleBindTheory.pdf
I think double bind may be quite common in therapy and it’s a pity that so few people are familiar with the concept, even though it’s ca 60 years old now. The article is not about therapy, though the author makes some references and offers some critique towards the end. Still, it’s an interesting read, I think.
selviafr ,I read about a double, actually triple bind in Karen Horney’s writings, which explains these contradictions in nurturing, dependence vs. independence, friend vs. foe, as a root cause irrational drives.
I definitely experienced a double bind in therapy: an intervention presented as for my benefit, but in reality all about the therapist.
Very interesting article. In my experience talk therapy is good for true crises like clinical depression, self-harming and the like, but useless or worse for common human issues like loneliness that arise from inherent personality differences (e.g., introversion) or larger societal issues such as prejudices, materialism, etc. Like you I have found talk therapy not to help a whit with social isolation. What is funny (gotta keep a sense of humor here) is how deeply talk therapists actually or ostensibly believe they can help people effect change other than in the context of true psychological crises. I suppose the younger ones are idealistic and the older ones simply overlook the sham nature of their profession since they, like all of us, need to earn a living. Philosophical and religious systems that have struggled through centuries to understand, explain, and provide some relief for the human condition are a far superior source of help than the largely self-serving and vacuous field of modern psychology.
I wonder how often it is helpful for true crises. I have severe depression and chronic illness and have yet to experience any sort of significant healing or progress in therapy. For me therapy has been either benign or destructive.
I agree, many of them seem deeply convinced of their power to transform. I have asked some therapists to explain how they do this, describe the mechanism of their therapy, and I rarely hear anything I can understand. They seem to fall back on theory. Or say something obscure.
When I read therapy websites now, most strike me as utopian fantasy stuff. All these grand promises. My former T offers “increased self-awareness, new skills, and insight” and will “help you create the life you want”.
Adam,
So much of what you say in this post fits my therapy experiences too.
Mental health marketing is more shameless and vague than late-night infomercials. I’ve seen ad copy like you describe, live a richer life etc. Then there are the implied messages, the green fields, the open arms at the beach welcoming the sun. All that is false shamanism at its finest.
Mary S: Sorry to hear that, but glad we have a place to talk about it.
Disequilibrium: I had to laugh at your comment about the green fields, etc. So true. The ad copy though is what really gets me. Crazy thing is when i looked at my former T’s site prior to seeing her, it seemed reasonable and even sorta persuasive. But when I read it now, it seems so transparently unrealistic. Not only that, but I realized it is rather poorly written, like she thew it together on her lunch break. Strange how the red flags were there but I just could not see them. I fear though that I am becoming quite cynical about all this.
Everyone I know has pain, disappointment and challenges in our lives, and it’s only human to hope someone or something can lift our burdens. It’s equally human to want to transcend our limitations. So when an accredited, degreed “professional” promises (actually or implied) life on a higher plain, it’s natural to attach ourselves to this magician. And we have an entire culture telling us whatever our moral failings, if we want to improve, we should see a therapist. And don’t over-burden our friends with our pain and problems.
But it’s nearly sacrilegious to question the validity of therapists’ salesmanship.
I’ve never brought an “acute” problem to a therapist. I do recall that the presence of therapists actually triangulated and interfered, rather than helped me solve real problems and challenges I had when I was there.They never understood my challenges, but both of us had to pretend they were useful.
I recently quit therapy after seeing a therapist for quite a few years. In many ways she helped me work through many issues, however recently I noticed our relationship was not exactly healthy. As a matter of fact the relationship was a repeat of a significant harmful childhood relationship. Over the years I have actually been to my therapist house on numerous occasions from just riding a long in her van to drop her daughter off after picking her up from school, to bringing her computer back online, to attending her divorce care party with others from her group she created at the church we both attended. I stopped going after I realized what was going on. I’ve met her sister, daughter, what used to be her boyfriend, along with other important people in her life. We have on one occasion gone out to eat after having a session of therapy. I grew to really care for this woman. In a conflict of interest she was seeing who used to be a friend of mine until that person tried to control me and use me. When she couldn’t she dumped the friendship. My therapist at the time still sees that person and since she is in her fifties and has no one else to take care of her after death responsiblities, the therapist agreed to help her. She has also been to my ex friends home to help her clean it up as she is a hoarder. I question my therapist when I stopped and wonder is this healthy? I mean what other therapist does these things? Where are the boundaries? Now im hurt and frustrated due to the conflict of her seeing ans being friendly with my old friend plus her lack of clear boundaries with me which is a repeat of older relationships. Im so hurt and im never going to another therapist again.
Phoenix,
That therapist clearly violated professional boundaries in numerous ways. I am so sorry you had to experience this. Quitting seeing her was the wise thing to do. It might be helpful for you to contact the people at the TELL (Therapy Exploitation Link Line) website.
There are many testimonies from clients around the fantasy of their therapist becoming their friend or their mate.Then I’ve read clients describe how this so often backfires when it does happen. I second Mary’s suggestion to contact http://www.therapyabuse.org.
One cautionary tale about a therapist taking over a client’s life is the recent Brian Wilson biography, Love and Mercy. Some “historic” celebrity conflict of interest stories are told in “Hollywood on the Couch: A Candid Look at the Overheated Love Affair Between Psychiatrists and Moviemakers.”
When I was in the worst of the recovery, someone suggested I read the extreme nightmare case, “Therapist” by Ellen Plasil. Seeing such a large transgression –financial, sexual and social– helped me see my less extreme situation more clearly.
Very interesting posts as always since I last logged on. Thought I would add a few more thoughts. It’s a few years now since I quit the therapy course I was on and quit therapy sessions. I think that being on a therapy training course and concurrently being in therapy – which is very often a condition of being on the training course – provides a fascinating insight into the therapy cult/industry. I saw two different therapists. The first wasn’t too bad although came out with one or two quite judgmental comments in the early sessions and visible sighed with frustration/annoyance when I confided in one of the problems I was experiencing. No doubt it is something he encounters often and he was thinking something along the lines of: “Oh God – not another to deal with this stereotypical problem. I’m just so sick of this!”
Lol!! The next therapist I saw was quite the wolf in sheep’s clothing and relished playing little and not so little ‘mind games’. I think she was a narcissist probably even verging on psychopath. Thankfully I quit before she could do serious harm, but – had I stayed with her – after two years of therapy (the required amount of time for the training course) I think I would have been thoroughly indoctrinated in this particular (dysfunctional, imo) school of counselling.
So it is into this rather sick little self-serving merry-go-round that students enter. Becoming indoctrinated by a certain school of counselling and then bringing this particular flavour of therapy to their eventual practice. A continual loop of dysfunction and dependence with issues unresolved and mind games being played out by the therapist to prevent any kind of closure.
I’ve been exploring some of my issues that go right back, imo, to the reasons I sought counselling in the beginning. It’s to do, as is so often the case, imo, with dysfunctional family dymanics being played out. As the family is the first institution which we enter – quite unwittingly of course with no choice at all – and in which we are usually brought up, it provides a wealth of opportunities for both good and bad experiences.
As long as one or both parents and maybe other adult relatives with some input in family unit and thus child’s upbringing are carrying out the bare minimum in terms of child-care – keeping the child clothed, fed to some extent and with some sort of roof over the child’s head – then the children will remain in their care. (This is not necessarily the worst thing that can happen – however woeful it is for the child, sadly – as State ‘care’ for children can be spectacularly bad – even worse than the family unit which the child was removed from. But that is another huge area of discussion.)
But I digress. What is fascinating to me is that despite over two years of intensive therapy training and a dozen or so therapy sessions my own (very obvious I would have thought and not at all uncommon) dysfunctional family background had not been explored in any depth at all.
The reason that each and every one of my fellow students were there would have been for issues revolving around their parents and how they were brought up in my opinion. This is not to lay a huge guilt trip on parents as they do one of the most difficult jobs in the world with zero experience and no qualifications. It’s just that a child’s upbringing will have a huge effect on their psychological well-being or not. Obviously there are also personality differences and so on. (Which is the nature versus nurture argument which continues to fascinate.)
What am I trying to say as I seem to have rambled? I think a good, experienced counsellor could have unravelled my family dynamics in as little as six sessions. Thrown light on what had been going on and how I had learned to cope and how my role in the family had shaped by psychological behaviour as an adult.
Instead of which I endured two years of dysfunctional therapy training and two separate counsellors neither of whom seemed either willing or able to responsibly explore my family background. Both were judgmental and both unnecessarily provocative, displaying little if any sensitivity.
So glad to be off the sick merry-go-round.
That said, I am sure there must be good counsellors and people who have been helped by counselling. It’s just sad that there are also people who are harmed by it.
You mentioned a new book some while ago by Paul Maloney called The Therapy Industry: The Irresistible Rise of the Talking Cure, and Why It Doesn’t Work. I managed to get hold of a copy from my local library and read it. Maloney, strangely enough, is a Counselling Psychologist who focusses more on the social and organizational causes of psychological distress than the individual. For him therapy provides a poor and often highly ineffective diversion from the real causes of human misery. I found a good YouTube link to him promoting his book, he’s a lot less acerbic in this clip than he is in his book but it’s still worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9klGXGexrdQ
Jane,
Thanks for the link. Very interesting.
Take heart, you anguished souls bothered by others who crack gum or chew with their mouths open. It’s not their poor manners; it’s you. You, along with 20 percent of the population, have an impairment called misophonia, which disrupts your life. “Experts” think it’s because of “enhanced neural connections in the brain between the auditory, limbic and autonomic systems,” according to the Wall Street Journal.
A graduation student has made a 483-person study. Psychiatrists are considering proclaiming this a new “disorder.” But take heart, the mental health industry understands you. Those zany counselors offer a form of cognitive therapy to treat “sufferers.”
http://www.wsj.com/articles/annoyed-by-loud-chewing-the-problem-is-you-1445277757
I have to say I enjoyed reading your blog. I totally understand not going back to therapy – hell, Jack Lemon gave up alcohol without therapy in the 1960s, so it’s not completely necessary.
I had one horrible experience with a therapist in SW London – reading your blog I think he was using Gestalt Therapy techniques. Everything was done using condescent and scorn, he would get confrontational for the sake of it and set up traps for me to fall into. One session he’s moaning about me not getting out there – next he starts having a go at me when I said I was doing a dance lesson – he comes at me with questions like “Do you think it will help going to a dance if you have social anxiety” and kept deliberately interrupting me so I could barely get a breath, never mind, sentence out. Then at a later session tears into me for me letting him do that!
I understood, I guess, that he wanted to toughen me up – it doesn’t work doing it that way though. But then he started getting facts wrong and being egotistical about it by using childish stuff like finishing off sentences to change their meaning to make his point. I had enough – crass I can actually handle, but stupid and inaccurate crossed the line.
A lot of therapists I meet are divided over this – especially with older ones they everything revolves around patient being at fault for therapy failure. But there are many that feel that a lot of therapists shouldn’t be in the system – I was once told the Priory will ask for past therapist’s details if a patient feels therapy failed because of the therapist’s aggression and/or attitude, especially if they had successful therapy right after. And some therapists will never give referrals to a therapist whose name keeps cropping up.
I swore of therapy again after that until my GP suggested I try it again – I went into a tirade about that but he was understanding and made a few recommendations to get a better one – I was on beta blockers and could stay on them indefinitely but he felt I could benefit from therapy.
Luckily, my next therapist was a breath of fresh air and after a year we finished it as there was nothing left to explore – my mind was calmer and, funnily enough, I noticed a huge difference in my social life. I entered the therapy with trepidation – I thought she’d rant on about patients helping themselves, but in fact she looked horrified as soon as I mentioned aggression and when she asked me to recount the experience she described him as ‘not a very good therapist’. She was straightforward, no ‘you don’t know you feel this way’ crap or mind games.
One thing that really made her stand out was one session when I described my week as crap as I couldn’t carry out some exercise she asked – she was not only fine with it but we had a really meaningful discussion about it and she got across that I wasn’t to rush things or pressure myself, she was just concerned about me putting myself under pressure. We often did things like experimental exercises to challenge my beliefs (it was CBT) and some pshycoanalysis talk therapy, but I was always asked to create my own homework and it wasn’t like previous therapists where it was impossible exercises out of the blue. That was where there was a huge difference between her and previous therapists – usually therapists will let you talk along, wait until the end then make a left field comment which will have you stew on it for a week then repeat the same process until you leave. It’s quite a manipulative technique, but she never did it. I knew I had met someone worth her salt when in a session I mentioned the whole ‘helping yourself mantra’ and she rolled here eyes immediately.
It was amazing – I still understand you not doing therapy again. Hell, it might even be for the better. Getting over the bad therapist was a difficulty that took longer than the social anxiety treatment I go with the decent therapist and I had considered going back to a psychoanalyst and getting a decent referral – but one friend that’s in the profession suggested not to open up old wounds. To be happy I had made a huge breakthrough with my issues. It doesn’t always have to be about therapy.
ellirgal, sorry you found yourself in this “club” and glad you found something effective. This page has a disproportional amount of comments about Gestalt therapy specifically. And though I’m unsure if one of my therapists was (thought he) was using Gestalt with me, he also was confrontational.
In all cases,informed consent seems to be non-existent. It seems the therapist simply ambushed the client with criticism and contempt. There is no way to determined if the therapist did this out of some controlled, if misguided technique, or was simply had lost professional demeanor and was acting out of his own hostility and need for dominance.
Socially, my therapy only reinforced me as childlike-like and needy, an feeble infant beholden to powerful adult figures.Needless to say, this did NOT leave me more successful in any context. Happily, my overall anxiety has decreased with age and a sense of accomplishment.There can be many approaches to solve the problem.
Sadly decent therapy usually costs top dollar. Many better clinics or therapists will adjust to a patient – whether it be because therapy wasn’t as expected or that even if they need to handle tricky patients.
Some people just can’t be helped and will have to come back to successful therapy at a later time. But I realise now that the number of such cases is lower than some therapists think. She would have worked quite hard before concluding we could no longer work together if that were the case. Such is life and it happens in some endeavours. But with some therapists even suggest the idea of a bad therapist and they look hard for reasons it was the patient’s fault – I get the felling being trained to analyse minds many of them use it to be manipulative.
It is sad that high standards in the therapy can cost £85-100 per hour – many people don’t have that or insurance to cover it. I have heard on some forums that people have had success with college therapists or pro bono – sometimes people will do that kind of work if they can (a bit like some legal people I have known in my line of work), or they just might prefer working in a student counsellor setting to working privately.
The thing that kills me is that clinical trials tell us which therapies work (I did a maths degree so understand the stats) yet we can’t seem to ensure therapists themselves are alright – one therapist I met once did mention some professional therapist organisation in Australia that are quite stringent on who they let be therapists. Hopefully it is a sign for the future where standards and accountability may come in to play in future.
Though therapists have convinced me they’re on par with physical medicine and steeped in the same science and methodology. They’re anything but. The “issues” to be treated are presented as described by the client/patient, who usually doesn’t understand them, or she wouldn’t be at the therapist’s office in the first place. The therapy relationship is so contrived and artificial, it doesn’t allow the provider a view of how the client negotiates everyday life.
Then we all cope with difficulties in different ways. And we see and experience similar situations differently. In retrospect, my therapists were delusional and self-deluding, the last people I’d want to emulate.
I have had therapists who charged me a lot of money who were terrible. About ten years ago one charged $140 an hour/session for marital counseling, who screamed at me while I was weeping, said I was “acting like a victim”, and I screamed back at her, and only then did she shut up. (Am skipping a Lot). You are offering a ‘simple solution’: ” see an expensive therapist” in trying to resolve a complicated problem. SOME THERAPISTS ARE TERRIBLE NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY CHARGE. Troubled therapists come in all stripes and colors. In my case, what has helped me have been certain Workshops, Wise Friends, and Very Helpful Books. This is what I have found to help ME. Everyone is different.
I can’t begin to understand how sitting in a room sniveling, or sitting in a room with someone masquerading as a wise man or women makes me more effective in life. Their phony “esteem building” or bromides didn’t help me. I had to create my life myself, earn my own respect through friends I made, colleagues whose respect I won, what I survived and what I accomplished. No therapy performance could do that for me.
There have been a couple of mentions on this blog about claims that certain kinds of psychotherapy can help chronic fatigue syndrome. I have come across some recent discussion of this, related to a study called PACE that purports to find that psychotherapy is effective for CFS. But the study has been severely critiqued (based on what’s in the published paper), and the authors are not releasing there data so others can scrutinize it. To see some of the discussion, search on PACE together with any of the following:
The Self-Taught Author
David Tuller
Julie Rehmeyer
Keith Laws
Thanks, Mary. if I understand correctly the CFS community has expressed that the mental health industry has done a lot of damage to patients by claiming to treat their heads while dismissing physical complaints. This forum below has linked to and discussed my blog as well as over-promising therapy in general. You can search PACE study.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?forums/general-me-cfs-news.14/
The psych industry seems shameless and limitless in what it purports to cure.
Hello, another survivor here of the so-called therapeutic relationship. Apparently this relationship is one of power imbalance and subtle emotional domination. The therapist has a social institution at the background that allows her to do whatever she wants with the patient/client. I’ve been out of therapy for 6 months and still think about my therapist every single day. I was emotionally seduced to the point of completely falling in love with her. When I tried to act on it she became really cold and withdrawn. She gave me her informed consent papers the moment I tried to push boundaries and tried to have a relationship with her. I felt cheated, I was hurting and she was just taking my money and not really caring or even recognizing what she was doing to me. I decided I had to quit therapy because I just couldn’t take the emotional humiliation anymore of being infantilized in my desire for her. At the end she was somewhat happy to let the troubling ‘client’ go and basically let me take all the responsibility about what happened. I was attracted to her from the very first session and let her in on that. I guess she decided that she can exploit that attraction for money until things started going awry and then.. well then she can hide behind the social institution and just not give a fuck. Meanwhile my depression intensified, I’m even more isolated socially, basically a walking wreck. I exchanged a couple of emails with her a few months after leaving – it’s her way or the highway. I felt particularly hurt by something she said in one of the emails: “It’d be a pity if we don’t establish normal human relations, based on trust and closeness, normal human closeness”, she could’ve continued it with: “you just have to pay for it”.
I want closure but I doubt that I’ll get any, every day I’m thinking of going back
but I’m scared of what would the emotional cost be this time.
T.T. I’m sorry you’re therapy was so painful and damaging. I’ve read clinicians propose that “falling in love” with a therapist somehow is therapeutic. I throw that baseless theory on the enlarging mountain of unproven speculation, I’ve read numerous accounts how hurtful this dynamic.
I believe that therapy inevitably is a role-playing relationship. It’s engineered with well-planned restrictions on client and therapist. Despite arguments to the contrary, I’ve yet to meet a therapist any more emotionally aware or unselfish and than any other human being. In fact,the therapist well could have an economic incentive added to the usual vanity to stoke the client’s passions.
The client’s attraction also might be conflated with the therapist’s implicit or stated “powers” and promises to help the client “heal.” Then the client doesn’t receive actual spontaneous feedback received in a normal instance of unrequited love. AND the therapist has his own conflicts–his professional mandate to avoid romance with a client. I’ve heard stories of therapists stoking feelings then coldly and abruptly ending the relationship because the possibility of sanction.
Therapists’ professional ethic only seem to cover romantic intimacy with the client. However that leaves wide latitude for emotional seductions which can being painful and harmful.
diseq said: “Therapists’ professional ethic only seem to cover romantic intimacy with the client. However that leaves wide latitude for emotional seductions which can being painful and harmful.”
Yeah this is such a dangerous loophole and easy out. If a client complains of emotional seduction or unrequited love, who even cares. As long as nothing egregious happened, it’s a non-event in the eyes of the biz and society. Get over it.
I can say from experience that being lured into an intense emotional entanglement, without any actual romantic or sexual involvement, has been totally ruinous. And like you say, it is conflated with other aspects of the therapist — healer, quasi-parent, friend — and so there is immense confusion about what I was responding to, and just what the hell was going on.
T.T: OMG, that is so close to describing my experience. I was emotionally seduced in the extreme. I was not attracted to her from day one but after a while it was total obsession. So there was pathetic and humiliating unrequited love and infatuation + childlike neediness and dependency that became like an addiction.
Has been 18 months and I think of her every day also. She haunts my consciousness 24/7. I got to glimpse everything I ever wanted, closely enough that I could almost grasp it, but it was a set up. Like a cruel practical joke. Every need was exposed up but none could be gratified ever. Meanwhile she was feeding off my worship of her. When it became clear that she was ruining me, she abandoned me to a hypothetical “next therapist” who would magically clean up the mess. Never happened. Then she just cut me off completely.
And like you I got the responsibility and blame. Subsequent therapists just piled on mostly. Institutionalized exploitation. Even hints from me of suicidal thoughts post-termination only roused defensiveness from her, suggesting I was being “subtly manipulative”.
One deeply entrenched therapy parlor game is that we can create psych-biographies–i.e. Timothy worked his way up to CEO to compensate for his father’s slight in kindergarten. None of this is provable. Nor do I believe the theoretical Timothy can “break the curse” by saying the kindergarten memory aloud to the kindly therapists.
I wonder if anyone has sat down the first day of therapy to be told “everything we say together from now forward is pure fabrication.” Everything seems accepted as proven physics.
Though my “seduction” was of a different sort–being “seduced” into the ritual and seeing my therapists as priest-like figures–I definitely fell into worship that was degrading at the time and humiliating in retrospect.
The more I reflect, the crazier the concept. The client is directed to be earnest, and raw, more “real” and open than he is in ordinary life. Yet the therapist’s actions are contrived, engineered and role playing. It’s not a relationship, it’s playing out an unscripted drama, but with one side performing a “character” and the other side being himself. And the client is fed the fiction that everything that happens is to benefit his “healing.”
One of many major problems I faced with therapists was that I questioned their viewpoints and misinterpretations of my life experiences. I did not pay a therapist a hefty ransom to enter their court of delusions but to solve my problems at hand. And constantly, one therapist in particular, wanted to find more and more problems that weren’t there or weren’t connected to my reason for being there. Very invasive and very subjective. Sadly that therapist exacerbated my struggles and I still am cleaning up the mess she made.So much for the demigods they make themselves out to be. There is a joke in corporations about Seagull Managers, they come in, squawk, make a mess all over and leave. Applies here as well.
I’m very heartened to see this blog, I don’t know if it is related to the ‘therapy is a con’ one, which I have commented on before. You sound like the same person.
I have to wonder how much of the problem is just… intelligence. You would think, and hope, that therapists would be capable of perceptive and ethical behaviour, regardless of IQ, but .. I wonder. I don’t know what you do for a living why do I think you are a lawyer? If so , the fact may just be you are more capable of critical thinking, insight, and just swifter than the therapists you have been to. Surprisingly, this type of thing seems to include a kind of swiftness of empathy also.
I have been extremely harmed by therapy, a psychiatric nurse in particular. In retrospect, she was minimally educated, small-minded, lacking the broadness of vision to really have empathy for a range of people. I ASSUMED that because I was a member of the general public that her ‘therapy’ was also tailored to me, but all that ever came out of her mouth were things like ‘you are not like most people, why don’t you just act normal’. As a creative person, especially, this was more and more devastating the more I heard it.
I know this is a highly politically incorrect thing for me to write, we are supposed to all be “the same” , and be warned, anyone who will comment on this, I TOTALLY was “humble” and cooperative, in all those years of crappy therapy. I am FORCED to now to see things otherwise. This is NOT arrogance, it is a painfully arrived at conclusion.
Saw an interesting documentary from 2011 called Kumare. Tired of how his Hindu culture had been exploited and commodified, he embarked on a filmed experiment: can a guy from New Jersey re-invent himself as a guru?
The answer was -yes-and he succeed far beyond his expectations. Much to his puzzlement, he attracted a circle of followers taking his classes (he did have real yoga knowledge) and engaging in his absurd, improvised rituals. His disciples swooned that he delivered a revelatory and life-changing experience being in his presence.
I had mixed reactions to Kumare as a film–it could be slow moving and redundant in places. I have even more reactions to the ethics of fooling distressed followers for a film. (Many of them still found the experience genuine and stayed in touch.)
But the film did hold many ideas for me. Presumably unlike many therapists, Kumare knew he was a fraud and admitted the large dilemma of attracting genuinely distressed people seeking his help. Unlike many therapists, he knew he was over his head. As he admitted he was a fraud, no one believed him. Realizing his limitations, he listened and advised his “students” to look toward the guru within. He eventually revealed his shaven, American-accented, civilian-clothed truth.
It was interesting that a costume, fake accent, facial hair and ridiculous rituals created a “wise man.” It was all show business. But that’s what therapy is for me: my vulnerability answered by an invented guru’s arbitrary exercises and affect. But unfortunately my therapists believed their own publicity and never told me they were charlatans.
Kumare is on Netflix and various video-on-demand services.
Has anyone here come out of therapy with intractable, obsessive, addictive infatuation for their therapist? The technical term sometimes used is “limerence”. I am going on 20 months now of this (terminated 18 months ago).
Total nightmare. Intrusive and repetitive thoughts. Like a phonograph record that keeps skipping and playing the same short bit of music over and over. Gnawing sense of unbearable loss, all consuming shame. Sexual and general obsession. Cant shake it.
Seven months of therapy with way too much intimacy and just enough special treatment from ex-therapist, plus physical attraction, plus me coming in desperate and on the edge and with a life of much deprivation, plus maybe some very slight familial resemblance in her face and hints of maternal bliss, plus a certain chemistry between us, plus being understood by someone in a way I have never experienced (or the appearance of it perhaps), plus her desperate need to be needed, plus the utter confusion and disorientation of having powerful feelings for a hidden and obfuscating performer…. and then abrupt termination. Was like she implanted a device in my brain that forces me to think of her 24/7, and then disappeared.
I think I need to look into some sort of neural training intervention or technique. Anyone relate to this?
Adam, I can imagine this kind of infatuation is hell because you’ve received unreal feedback from the object of your obsession. Even if our real-life crushes like to collect admirers –I’ve certainly been caught in that net–we likely will receive some realistic feedback that the person we adore is a lost cause. But our therapists have been play-acting with us, performing the role of our perfect listening ear, beaming his or her attention our way as they pretend–for an hour–to be devoted to us, our pains, our lives. No wonder it’s falsely seductive.
My issue in therapy was different. My therapists were parent figures and I couldn’t shake my irrational need for obedience to them. It was obsessive though. I’m maybe the last one to offer a solution (see me here , blogging!) beyond the object-receding-in-the-rearview-mirror strategy. After my worst therapy I did make a big move both in geography and career which took my mind off things for a while.
Diseq, thanks, yes the lack of feedback is one of the nightmares. I know this was discussed on this blog previously with some great insights. Therapists are taught to avoid self-disclosure. Keeps the focus on the client, etc etc. But it can also feel like emotional abuse. The client spills their guts, and then the therapist cruelly withholds. I could never figure out who I was talking to, what she felt, why she behaved as she did. Drove me insane. Was like getting stuck in the early stages of an intimate relationship, doomed to keeping reliving it. I really think my brain has been changed by the experience.
I had some parental stuff going on too. And like you the obedience was irrational, and also automatic.
Adam, only conjecturing here, but it sounds like a mashup of her “following her training” or what she thinks is her training, conflated with her vanity needs, mixed in with the reasons you went to her in the first place.
I didn’t have a therapy attraction, but I’ve been stuck in other impossible infatuations with guys who needed adoration and gave me just enough encouragement to stoke me. They can be like performers needing fans.
Therapists set up expectations they can’t possibly fulfill.
Feel like I need help to sort this out, but I don’t trust the system at all, its assumptions, its speculative theories, its claims to wisdom or insight or higher consciousness. Therapists seem as damaged as anyone else, maybe more so. And the basic dynamic seems so convoluted and antithetical to autonomy and well-being. At best it seems like a drug that is palliative and highly addictive, and then the patient is worse off when the drug is withdrawn.
I’ve found that once you begin to challenge the system and assert a claim of therapy harm, the system goes into self-protect mode. If you are too vigorous in your assertions, you become a liability. So every interaction with the system now involves some level of dishonesty. And because their individual and collective egos are threatened, I have to edit my words, lest I upset them, and so I cant say what I really need to say, and the dysfunctional role playing is perpetuated as is the stifling of authenticity.
This goes for ex-therapist, all the therapists I consulted with or tried after her, two people I talked to at one of the organizations that trained her, and even therapy support forums online like PsychCentral. The whole system is there for you… until you start asking the wrong questions and pointing out the delusions.
I found that as well. My follow-up therapist only coached me “he wasn’t a bad therapist; it was a bad match,” in effort to dissuade me from reporting him. She imposed diminishing metaphors on the situation. I lost my eventual complaint. They really circled the wagons. I find the kindly healer cloak often drops the minute a criticize a therapist or question the assumptions of the profession.
A therapist describes her bad therapy
http://tinyurl.com/z36ffos
She only ended when it was no longer part of her required training.
Wow. This is one of the best if not the best. sites about therapy abuse. I have days when I wished I could stop reading aobut this kind of abuse. I cannot.
— Reasons for abuse, I agree with all of them on this forum. The reasons the therapist abused me. Power, his problems etc.
The surprise of what happened. Sick, disturbing, shocking. I didn’t report it for a few reasons. I live in a state where professionals and business owners can crew you financially and emotionally. Extremely corrupt and greedy. Also,
I knew him for less than five months. Not too many people get that you can be hurt quickly. There’s probably clients/patents who went between one and 4 times who were hurt who cannot tell anyone. I confronted I’m a little bit the last time I went to him. He got defensive. When he called me a month later he said I should come back to therapy. He did the mirroring of words and thought so much it was so incredibly weird. Never did anyone play on me like that. And yes, there are those wh feel played on and go back. That was me. I stpped when the emotional l and phsyical threat was terrifying. I do mean terrifying. I paid for terrifying. NO one got int. 2 therapists later, they didn’t get it. They only got that I was hurt and he was a bad therapist.They said they didn’t want to hurt me like he did. Later a hurt me by her stupidity.
I believe the damage starts the moment a therapist starts to play a role, pretends to know anything more than he knows. leads a client to believe that he can deliver her from the pain, confusion and dilemmas of life. They’re merely human beings who’ve been taught theory, arbitrary labels and protocol, nothing more. The trouble begins they elevate themselves as more evolved than the client or begin to believe their own publicity.
diseq — Re: believing their own publicity, yea I get the feeling they lose touch with reality, from being isolated in the little room and presumably getting very little feedback from clients. Probably start to develop delusions of grandeur in the absence of reality checks.
I wonder too how many are doing a sort of doublethink routine, developing an awareness that the system is deceptive or harmful, and then repressing this in favor of some fantasy. I observed this in my ex T — a determined defense of the process even in the face of harm to me, then finally a brief teary confession, then at the end a return to make-believe.
I cant stop reading or thinking about it either. The thoughts are intrusive and obsessive. And my therapy was not even overtly abusive. But it was devastating and humiliating, and there is an overpowering urge to keep trying to re-engage her, in am attempt to alter the outcome. Something i read in a book about suicide captures the motivation behind this:
“To obliterate a humiliation or rejection by resumed (or increased) action… to overpower weakness; to repress fear; to efface an insult by action. Counteraction is related to the need for achievement and for inviolacy (to have one’s own psychological space uninvaded).”
I know what you mean about nobody getting it, even (or especially) other therapists, who have a vested interest in not getting it. Totally alienating and isolating.
I take responsibility for mbeing sensitive. Some sensirive people should avoid theapy I went in with less problems than many people. Looking back, I was too naive to know I was kinda living an OK
Well written piece. Comprehensive, perceptive, thoughtful, and provocative.
I never knew that here in the UK therapists can be completely unregistered, discovered this recently by looking at this blog that deals with therapist abuse in the UK
https://unsafespaces.com/2016/04/27/protected-titles-or-protected-functions-how-best-to-regulate-psychotherapy/
Hello again! I haven’t read the comments in a long time, only from time to time, but since something happened today I came back, read some and want to share a few insights.
A few posts above Francesca mentions the question of intelligence. That ties in nicely with the experience I had that brought me back here. Namely: a few days ago I went to visit a therapist who specialises in trauma, abusive relationships, the Dark Triad – these are not just a few of her areas of expertise but also her primary professional interest, it seems. She’s in her 60’s, so quite experienced, accredited and so on. I went to see her as her profile seemed to fit with my particular problems. During the session she identified my two previous experiences with therapists as abusive. She expressed concern over the fact that I had made complaints about them saying she’s a bit afraid I’d do that to her if she didn’t “get it right”. I asked her if she thought it was because they didn’t get it right or because they were harmful. She said I made a good point and it was because they were abusive. OK, so we got that out of the way, it seemed… She gave me a contract to read at home while she would think about how she could possibly help me. We agreed to meet again this week. Today she sends me an email saying she has decided not to work with me. Well, that was painful… I actually felt good talking to her, she gave me space to express myself and she seemed knowledgeable, as well as had a few good insights. The reasons she gave for not committing to work with me were that she didn’t want to be yet another specialist who’d let me down and that she had other commitments that might stand in the way of giving me the attention and time I needed as a client and meeting my expectations…
Now, about intelligence. The therapists mentioned in the session that it looks like I was “too intelligent” for my former therapists and the reason they got abusive is that they didn’t like to be challenged. I found it to be a very good insight, because this is indeed how it felt with them – however (as I told her) I found their reaction to be too low/primitive for someone who should know better so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. But this benefit of the doubt is something that allows bad therapists to exploit us. After all, you can’t X-ray the soul and confirm or disconfirm their findings… My point is a therapist’s behaviour will sometimes really be low and cowardly/bullyish if you just don’t buy what they’re saying and dig deeper. Even though, of course, they should have high moral standards and have completed their own therapy and so on. But it will be – and the fact that another therapist (who seemed to the point) noticed that just confirms that those things are possible, although they’re appalling.
A broader point I am making is that therapists will act as humans – which is often used to justify any wrongdoings on their parts, but this is totally not my intention here. They will be “only human” including all the worst things that humans are capable of, including low to zero moral standards, including fighting off criticism when their ego is threatened and so on. You’d think that because they should be more aware of all those mechanisms and they have had their own therapy that they won’t stoop to this kind of behaviours, but it’s obviously not the case.
Now, back to the therapist who turned me down. What I really think is that despite knowing I had valid reasons to make complaints about former therapists and herself calling their conduct abusive and appalling, understanding that it was their lack of ethics and not knowledge that led me to do that, she was still concerned. Maybe she also had doubts over whether she could help me – that makes me feel like a special case again, which is not a good feeling. She told me I could search for someone else on the site that lists accredited therapists saying there are some equally competent as her – although she knows that there are none in the area whose primary area of interest is what she specialises in. Although I value her for letting me know straight away I find it unfortunate that she refused to help me probably based only on her fear (of me?). I really had no intention to report her even if things didn’t “work out”. I think she might have also been afraid of not giving me what I needed/wanted as she stated I seemed to want to put a label on my experience while she doubted I’d get that label. (Perfectly fine, but maybe it was also a way of protecting herself just in case – if there’s something she cannot help me with / understand). Plus saying I was too intelligent for the other therapists – yes, it’s on them, but maybe it kind of scared her I’d be too much to handle or something like that? I don’t know. But you see, just as I was getting my hope about the industry back, I got knocked down yet again. What does that say? I don’t know. Either things are hopeless for me or I should be looking elsewhere… I really don’t know. It would be nice to connect, open up and listen to sometimes some valid insights – which is how I imagined this therapy to be after the first session – but seems like it’s out of reach for some humans. Because they ask questions and seek answers – well, such is my experience anyway.
Selviafr
From my reading and experience, it seems a certain percentage of therapists are intimidated by clients how deviate from the subordinate, obedient, grateful dynamic and actually question their therapists’ efficacy or ethics. Considering the near dearth of literature about harm in therapy, I can only conclude therapists are afraid of the subject. I hope you find what you need either in or out of therapy. I think there are many paths outside of therapy to feeling better about life.
selviafr: My guess is that she is protecting her livelihood by avoiding working with you because she feels the odds are too high that you will end up taking action against her if it doesn’t go well. It’s understandable, but it also demonstrates what happens when client and therapist needs are in conflict. It’s a business and the client will be sacrificed in order to protect the biz. My last therapist said and did things that were harmful to me because her self-image and beliefs as a therapist were threatened. Subsequent therapists colluded on this. Better to throw a client under the bus than acknowledge unpleasant truths.
As for therapists being human, I agree that this is the default defense in the case of wrongdoing. They enjoy a double standard — they market themselves as more evolved and together than the rest of us, but if they screw up they are only human and cut them slack. It’s also a fundamental deception. The client rightfully expects a higher standard, and pays for the privilege, then is ambushed by the therapist’s previously hidden neuroses.
AdamP, I agree. But what does that say about therapy in general if therapists screw up like this acting “human” when they’ve been through their own therapy?
I guess you’re right about the therapist I wrote about. If it’s really the case, it makes me into a contentious, fussy client who will only seek retribution once something doesn’t go her way. Which is not the case and she seemed to empathise with me about my previous experiences calling them abusive. Still, when push comes to shove, she’d rather be on the safe side, i.e. being suspicious of me after all. That’s a fairly large margin of error she’s assuming if that’s the case. Maybe that’s not the whole picture, though. But still, yet another negative, disheartening experience with mental health industry.
I have thought about that also–therapists presumably have done a ton of therapy of their own, have had supervision and training. And yet some are still apparently quite unstable and neurotic, and can do a lot of harm to unsuspecting clients. I guess it means that having gone through therapy guarantees nothing, and might even make someone worse. And possibly it also suggests that the mental health biz attracts a lot of people who are quite damaged to begin with. There is also the possibility that therapists they saw or trained with were themselves troubled, and thus the dysfunction perpetuates down the line, as in families.
Yea large margin of error, good way to put it. I don’t blame you for feeling discouraged. If you’ve had bad experiences, my money is on the system being the problem rather than you, based on what I have seen and heard.
AdamP, that’s not a pretty picture of therapy, but looks like it’s true.
I plucked up the courage and wrote the therapist asking for reasons for her decision in light of the fact that she specialises in what I came to see her with and apparently had the time to take on a new client since she agreed to the first session. I told her I’m sorry for being nagging, but this whole thing makes me feel like I’m a hopeless case since even such an experienced therapist like her with exactly the area of expertise I was looking for turns me down. Well, perhaps she won’t answer – that’s ok. It’s just that the whole thing makes me wonder and kind of ruined my day yesterday…
I’ve just read urexchange with adam, selviafr -to me, it sounds, like what the author of the blog said once – therapy, whatmay help is just a shot in the air. ur new therapist saw this -perhaps uncionsciously -and backed out. her cowardice was what struck me. clients going to therapyare incredibly courageous – willing to open themselves upto a stranger, while shrinks areas as cowardly as the next person. to me, having a real calling as a therapist would be “risking”. I’ve read ur older posts and they are moving-I dohope to write more. Iwish I had reasonable advice as to ur current situation – I have none. And I regret it.
Anna
Hi Anna! Thanks for your kind words, I appreciate it.
I heard back from the therapist, although it was after a few days when I’d thought she wouldn’t answer. She did, but all she said was that she was sorry that I wasn’t happy about her decision and that she’d found out about another therapist who’s worked with abused women – gave me her contact info and told me I could contact her or, if I considered her too far from me (as it is a ca. 1 hour trip) then maybe ask her if she knows someone closer. And that was it.
I had already booked an appointment with another therapist in my town, so I went – she seemed nice enough, kind and willing to help, but also quite nervous… Some things bothered me, such as the fact she doesn’t have a clear cancellation policy and that she mentioned people who were going from therapist to therapist because they fail to give something and just expect the work to be done magically. I told her I was not one of those people and explained why. Then, on my way home I had a thought – I don’t know if actually those people exist at all, yes, you hear about them, but I actually don’t imagine anyone in distress not wanting to do things… Might be just another therapy myth. But ok, for the time being I’ll stick to her and see how it goes.
Another reflection I had is that there is something wrong with my country – I am now abroad and have seen 2 therapists – ok, maybe not everything went perfect, but it was a far cry from what I experienced in my country. I cannot imagine them being so condescending here. They were really surprised themselves at what I told them about my previous experiences with this industry, truly surprised. Well, there is something wrong with my country, I know it’s not a politically correct thing to say, but it’s true.
. After the 3rd therapist in a year I figured out they did not know ho w to help me.
Therapists tell you they have heard it all. Then someone like me comes along and they are somewhat clueless. (I have always had self esteem issues..)
I am done with therapy for a long long time.I tried to find someone who gets it a little , they just don’t or won’t.
Hi Minne,
In my experience most therapists have a really narrow framework and are not interested to extend it if they encounter some thing that doesn’t fit. I think it is possible to find a therapist who “gets it”, but who knows where they are? Most likely it will be someone experienced and with a real interest to help people, curious and open-minded – but such are few and far between and there is no guarantee. I think there is a tendency now to acknowledge that therapy is not the only way, that there are alternatives.
Therapy established itself firmly in our culture, so that the average man tends to think it is a real fix for people with problems, like a doctor is when you have physical problems. But it is not and psychology or psychiatry is not a science like medicine is. It’s good to be reminded of that from time to time, and yesterday it was a lecture by Stan Grof that did it for me. Grof has been researching altered states of consciousness for many, many years starting off as a psychiatrist. While one may or may not agree with his theories and findings, he has a great point questioning or rather dismissing the foundations of psychiatry and psychology – there are many theories, none of them really substantiated, while, as he says, it would be hard to imagine chemists arguing over what happens when you put this and that substance together. Therapy seems pretty much guesswork. Aaaand, as he rightly points out, we all have our own natural resources for self-healing. Therapy culture often gets in the way of those.
So why have I sought therapy recently anyway? I’ve found that having space to express myself and talk to someone who holds that space is healing and in my last two encounters with therapists they had some insights that I found fit and that I could later elaborate on on my own. That means their framework does fit my case – at least superficially (most probably!), but I can still gain some revelations from it. It gives me some perspective, which I find fits, so I buy it. But all the same I can imagine they can get it wrong. I no longer expect them to be wiser or more perceptive than me, it’s just that they may happen to have (!) certain knowledge or frame of reference that could be useful. Plus, they listen. But even though my expectations are so low, I am aware that it’s hard to find therapists even with those few qualities.
A new subject area: Suicide rate has risen by 30% in the U.S., yet MANY THERAPISTS ARE GIVEN LITTLE TRAINING. Read: “quantitative findings from 2 national surveys of MSW deans and directors and
of MSW faculty on suicide education and qualitative findings from a series of
faculty focus groups. Results suggest that MSW students receive 4 or fewer
hours of suicide education in graduate school, and most deans and faculty do
not have plans to increase suicide content. Barriers include lack of faculty
expertise, crowded curricula, and other educational priorities. Implications are
discussed.” Yeah. I like how they used the word “implications”. We know what the implications ARE. From the get go, therapists’ training is awful. Couple that with the kind of people who become therapists, and no wonder we have all been through disasters when we try to get ‘help’ from these horrible people.
Minne, I found that self-esteem, a pet psych-phrase, could not be found in psychotherapy any more than it can be sold in a bottle. I earned a little of it through survival, time, experience and proving my own competency to myself. I wish the psych industry would stop promising merchandise they don’t have.
7 years ago I went to therapy with a relationship issue. I went to see the same shrink I had previously seen a few years before, and that first therapy with him was successful.
It was successful not because he produced a solution – it was not what I had been looking for. I needed a space where I could talk and be understood and supported, I deeply felt that I would find the solution myself when provided with such space and support. It did happen. AFter a few months of weekly meetings and my being intensely focused on my emotions and on organizing my thoughts, controlling the fear and also facing the fear, the answer came to me. I can remember asking him “when does therapy end? “”When you feel it’s finished,”he answered. It was exactly the same I felt. After a few more sessions we wrapped it up.
I was deeply grateful to the man – not because he offered some magic tricks, but because he was my companion on the way which I defined. Basically, his role was to listen with what I thought was genuine interest, accept me fully as I was, sometimes ask a question that would smartly discourage me from bashing myself.
So, deeply grateful as I was, I knew at the same time that it was really me who helped myself and he was the one who helped me do it. The feeling was as if I was trodding a dangerous and difficult path and there was someone walking a few steps behind me, walking this path with me.
Fast forward a few years later (happy,beautiful years). Sudden death of my mom whom I was very, very close to, painful death which I witnessed. My poor dog getting louder and louder due to stress and neighbours giving me a lot of s… because of it, to the point of suggesting they would kick me out. Loss of safety , of any basic stability. Then, becoming unemployed. Then, a new relationship (first in a few years) and an issue in it that devastated me and led to a breakup (rightly so).
The same shrink. Suddenly, very directive. LAUGHED AT ME at one point. Kept pursuing his own vision of the situation. After a few months I got out, increasingly feeling sth was VERY DEEPLY WRONG. The guy’s words? “You ‘ve never completed your therapy.” There were countless moments when I was so shocked I was speechless.
Of course, I ended up feeling even worse than when I started the f…..ing sessions. Like something was wrong with me. When we started, I felt terrible but absolutely bent on doing the same I’d done a few years before- and finding a solution that I felt was deep down inside me. I started doubting myself, my thoughts, my feelings.
After about a year I moved from my small town to a big city in search of a job, being almost completely broke and feeling increasingly worse. In crisis, I encountered a few more “mental health professionals,” hoping to get meds. One yelled at me for not having taken off my winter jacket. I had asked for the cheapest meds possible, as I was in a very poor financial situation. Well, she prescribed meds that were completely new and rather expensive. DId not work at all. I felt like I was losing my sanity. Another asked me intimate questions claiming that “he could not help me if he knew nothing about me.” Then he gave me the very same pills that I’d told him did not work. Why? He asked me if I had suicidal thoughts. I said I didn’t, so he figured they did work after all. Of course, he told me I had to go to therapy.
At the same time, I had to take any jobs I could get to support myself. As an English teacher teaching private courses I had to smile and be f…ng cheerful in front of students.
Once again I tried to get some help.I found a renegade feminist ngo shrink – was EXTREMELY helpful, just normal, human. I felt I was losing my sanity and she really helped. Sadly, she got seriously ill and went to hospital (we never had a chance to have another session).
Eventually , I got pills that were cheap and worked from the local crisis intervetion centre, a terrible place in itself ( a v young psychologist straight from the uni who was terrified when she saw the state that I was in – that really gave me a feeling of safety, lol, a psychiatrist who chatted about current politics and stuff like the football euro cup and wanted to know my opinion; I just went with it and pretended it was ok, didn’t have the power to fight anymore).
I found a psychoanalist who worked for the ngo established by the feminist shrink and figured that since they shared the same values she would be helpful.
It was perhaps the worst experience. Never had I met a person so cold. She was not rude or anything, just not showing any emotons whatsoever, weird, nor human. I knew sth was off but a part of me wanted to believe there was hope. She didn’t like anything I was saying, my own thoughts on the situation were of no interest to her, she said I was talking like I was a shrink myself while she wants the basic story, basic facts (I DID tell the story, I was not chaotic – what she meant was that I had no right to my own interpretation of it – that was sth SHE would provide, what I think counts as s…. ) Well, her interpretation was that it was all my fault really, I was a narcissist, I was not normal living in a bubble that burst and now thank God met her and she will help me know what I should think and how to navigate the world. I was at the bottom of bottoms at the time and let her do it to me. Did not leave. Went home,went to bed, lying there in terrible fear that I am a sick weirdo. Did a narcisstic personality test that said I wasn’t a narcissist. Did not help. I have felt sth is wrong with me ever since. I have made bad life decisions (not only, there were also good ones, but I know I have let people treat me badly solely on the basis of that feeling that was planted in me – that I’m abnormal, have no right to anger, should adjust). I believe my huge vulnerability at the time, lack of any security, isolation (knew just one person in the new city where I started living) and previous hurt from my ex bf and the first shrink combined allowed this owman to havesuch an impact on me. I used to be confident, joyful but also respected the more difficult part of life: sadness, despair, mourning. Now I’m a mess. Thanks psych industry. It truly is like a cult, as disequilibrum wrote. A cult I have not recovered from.
Thanks for the blog. I wish I had come across it earlier. I’m sure some found it at the time when it helped them save their lives.
Anna
I meant to post my story at the very bottom, not as a comment to selviafr ‘s post. not sure how it happened, sorry.
@selviafr It seems that your ex-shrink did not have the courage to discuss the reasons of her not taking you on as a client. Took the easier way. I’ve also noticed that a client who’s had bad experience with previous therapists is seen as liability.
Anna-apologies for the very late response. I’m sorry you went through such hell at low points in your life. The dishonesty is how therapists label their own neediness and unacknowledged hostility as helping us.
I am in the process of setting up my own business. My passion is women, men and children who live in violence…..My other passion is corruption within the system i.e therapists and pychologists. My never ending goal and desire is to truly expose their bad txt book practices, and what I mean is if you haven’t walked in the one’s seeking help shoes how could you possibly know how to heal? Bad therapy is phenominal and has been for years and it is truly shocking that the therapists get away with damaging and destroying fragile lives who are already fragile and shattered. I had been violated one after the other from counselors and and pychologists due to severe issues I was dealing with which I won’t detail here……..This went on for 8 years reason being after 2-4 sessions with the therapist I felt more angry, I felt bad about myself, i felt more shattered and I would think ‘what would I know he/she’s the expert i’m the un-well person seeking help. Long story short I would leave and find me another counselor. I was in desperate need of help you see and that’s what I would do was strive to work on myself with the knowledge that only I could help myself. So I sort all types of therapies for my wellbeing, my sanity. After 8 years of shockingly violated therapy and loads of different therapists I realised there was NO hope whatsoever. We go for help because we feel insane and need help or for whatever reason we seek help. Unfortunately only to come out of our therapy sessions feeling more insane and more violated spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. I was also made to feel from them that due to my traumas i was un-intelligent in everyway. I was suffering from severe trauma but I knew my worth and knew I was highly intelligent…..but more than that I knew I was a special human being. I came away from them shattered everytime over a period of 8 years. I also had relationship counseling, long story short due to domestic violence from 3 different counselors and oneof them a psychologist……My partner was very violent more so metnally and emtionally than physically. He managed to charm the counselors and the psychologist to where although I was the violated one they all made me out to be the crazy one. It was horrific! I had arrived at the conclusion that I was more sane in my un-well state than all the idiot, ghastly, un-professional, violating counselors and psychologists put together. So much so that I went and did a degree in counseling. In my un-wellness they didn’t understand us little people….They belittled and degraded us and twisted our words much like our violent partners and the pain within me understood that the majority of the people in New Zealand were in serious trouble as our fragile, shattered lives were entrusted in the hands of these professionals. I came to understand that unless you have walked in our shoes you could never heal us NOT ever, nor understand ever. There are great counselors out there but my GOSH they are truly hard to find. And sometimes though not all the time but the best counselors are the one’s that have lived the nightmare of acute trauma. They are the most compassionate people worth knowing, and the ones that often become activists for the broken hearted, forgotten and the misunderstood. They are angels with broken wings. Due to my life of violence I was definitely an activist for the down trodden. It was heartbreaking to see so many counselors do such alot of damage. For over 30 years I have experienced terrible support workers, counselors and psychologists abusive staff within the woman’s refuge. How shockingly incredible that they get away with it and have gotten away with it for years. Not only that but millions a year are funded for the wellbeing sector to pay these idiots to make us more un-well, hence the keep their job forever. Lastly; they wonder why mental health statistics are high and growing extremely higher with idiots and hitlers at the helm. Incredible!!
I also felt that way when I walked out of many therapists’ offices: not heard; terribly depressed, and hopeless. I also thought many had NO compassion. What I ended up doing, was never wasting my time/money with those jerks again, and instead turned to the following: 1) I took meds for depression and anxiety (from a psychiatrist); 2) began reading incredibly helpful books (which I can give you list of); 3) Turned to wise friends for support and sound advice; 4) Began taking workshops that transformed how I saw things – like Landmark Forum, etc. There may be readers on this blog who disagree with my turning to meds, BUT they saved me, and began me on the path to leaving an emotionally abusive marriage.
Hey there I did exactly what you did, all of the above because I had lost trust with the professionals, self help books helped me more….As for the medication for depression. Y’know! I never ever believed in medz for my depression so i wouldn’t touch it for years. At 42 yrs old I decided to take medz for my depression and wow I would truly encourage people to take it now. They were a definite Upper for my usual all time lows. I felt great, just awesome
LK, pardon my highly tardy response. I’m sorry you had to undergo this violence and indignity again and again. It adds insult to injury that insurance or the tax dollars pay for these scams. I think the benefit may be paradoxical. The insight comes from seeing it for the ruse it is.
Dear Dis1, I have found your blog recently and have been reading through the comments. One of your comments in particular has prompted me to post here. It was a comment about the self-help industry/self-help books and that they’re just the same as therapy.
You are absolutely right. Reading self-help and therapy books did to me exactly what in-person therapy did to you wonderful people. I was going through a distressing time, turned to self-help and other therapy theory books and it all went down hill. It became a vicious cycle. The more I read and tried to apply the techniques the worse I felt. The worse I felt the more I believed my problem was more and more serious and would buy more psych literature which would make me feel worse and I would search for the next book that would give me the answers.
The books do what a real live therapist does: severely undermine your belief in your own resilience, competence and the ability to decide what is best for you.
Eventually I grew increasingly frustrated and I came across this quote by Einstein in which he says that madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Inspirational quotes usually make me gag but something about this one hit home. I had to face my extensive self-help/psych library and the fact that my problems were nowhere near solved.
I decided to do the opposite. First, I just stopped reading. Then I started reading criticisms and critiques of therapy, psychology and psychiatry and now I am finally getting my confidence back but I am angry about the years I wasted because the increased distress I experienced from self-help really impacted my quality of life.
Self-help is also a con in that the people or case studies presented never actually help themselves but come to see the therapist-writer who directs them on what to do. I could say a lot, lot more but I will leave it at that.
I am also delighted to see Tina Dineen mentioned in your writing. Her book was instrumental in helping me.
Time and money wasted. At one point I didn’t know which is worse. Also could have been looking for a better job for the almost 2 hrs I committed to transportation to therapy, waiting ofor therapist and actual therapy. I thought the therapist cared about me. When I found it he did not I was saddened. For some it is the income. For others it was the desire to control. I speak about it mostly to help others. It does nothing to talk — for me it no longer matters. Tried a CODA group, it helped for 3 months, kept going anyway, felt better when I stopped. I Finally Asked Myself What is really wrong. I CAME UP EMPTY. THINGS are mostly Ok even though the challenges are very tough. I think the LOrd has a plan for me and us. A mere mortal cannot help bc of degrees or some credentials.
LTE, pardon the highly tardy reply. I learned much too late that counseling training can’t possibly install life wisdom. Until providers stop the pretense of superior powers, dishonest.
I tried self-help books for a couple of years, but they seemed shallow, so I tried therapy, assuming it would be more realistic and individually tailored. It also seemed shallow and one-size-fits-all — but was more harmful than the self-help books, because it involved people talking to me in contemptuous ways to my face, without the distance and privacy that self-help books gave.
It has been truly startling to find out how many therapists suffer from their own serious mental health issues. Had I known I would have never gone to see a therapist for my own extremely minor and temporary issue, only to emerge with serious emotional difficulties after being subjected to what I would call sadistic narcissism. This experience was made even worse by trying to fix the problem by talking with other therapists who refused to see anything wrong with it, as if therapy exists outside even basic notions of morality, the absolute power of the therapist being the only concern.
I have had difficulties wrapping my mind around my therapy experiences but blogs like this help. It’s puzzling that a profession which demands absolute trust from clients, and even treats the slightest lack of trust as a disease, has had the least trustworthy people I have honestly ever met in my life. Never in my life have I been subjected to such disrespectful behaviour.
You are SO right! Sorry that you, I and so many others have had to go through this. It got to the point that I WOULD DIAGNOSE MY THERAPISTS’ MENTAL PROBLEMS. My very first therapist had borderline personality disorder; she was so extreme that when I called her to ‘break off’ therapy with her, (I couldn’t do it in person, because she was SO Dramatic – another symptom of Borderlines- that she would have been screaming & threatening me in person, which I wouldn’t deal with); she told me that MY problem was that during MY sessions with her, I always ‘insisted’ on talking about MY problems first (always followed by her talking about her problems, of course). I am still so proud of what I told her that day: that I was paying HER money for MY sessions; she was not paying me to listen to HER problems.. That shut her up. But I’m sure she didn’t change one iota for her other ‘clients’.
I also want to add that in many professions, the professionals ‘defend’ each other. I myself don’t do this; I am a lawyer, and if someone tells me of a bad experience with a lawyer, I not only commiserate with that person, but hand them the tel. no. of the agency which disciplines lawyers.
However, I do think that therapists defend each other more than other professionals do, in other professions. Partly, because many are not that ‘bright’; (I do believe this); also because they are so troubled themselves they don’ t know how to handle the criticisms, or really don’t think anything IS wrong with what the other therapists did, as they DO the same, or similar, things themselves.The whole profession is one big MESS.
Yes, so much disrespectful behavior from therapists — much, much more than in ordinary life.
When I’ve asked questions to try to understand what the therapist is doing (because I just don’t see how it’s supposed to be helpful or even professional), I’ve gotten responses like, “Are you sure you’re not second guessing me?”, “Do you realize you are asking me to give up my control”, “Consider me to be something like a computer: what you say goes in, mixes around with my training and experience, and out comes a response,” “I love to talk about my theories,” or “I have my reasons”. That’s contrary to the client’s right to informed consent.
And the therapist insisting that I said something I didn’t.
And saying crazy things like, “I think you’re harming yourself by focusing so much on differences between you and me. You need to focus more on how we are similar,” and “From what you’ve said, she [the previous therapist] felt close to you, so I don’t see what the problem is.” Those just don’t make sense to me.
Someone who shows no signs of caring whether or not what (s)he does makes sense to the client is not fit to be a therapist. A good therapist realizes that (s)he needs to earn the client’s trust. Therapists with even that minimal qualification seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Most therapists seem to be off in a fantasy world.
Short Version: Not surprisingly, the typical therapists is immature, arrogant and insecure; more often than not, they are emotionally disturbed as well. Surprisingly, most therapists are poorly trained, ignorant, robotic, and quite stupid. Nuff said.
Resharpen, I agree on the whole profession being a mess. The defensiveness of therapists doesn’t just border the absurd, it rests there by a comfortable margin. Two different therapists told me that there are no therapists that could be considered bad. This statement is so baffling that to try and understand it feels like grabbing onto water, which I believe is the intention. Therapy is now the only profession in the world that doesn’t have bad practioners. This isn’t an attempt to have a reasonable conversation with anyone, it’s about getting into a battle formation to protect the collective ego against perceived threats. Mind you, I question if there is a single good therapist.
The common theme seems to be how therapists need power at the expense of everything else, like with you Mary S. I believe this is a fundamental quality of the profession, instead of an anomaly of “bad therapists”. Right from the start there is no respect for healthy boundaries, like not trusting a virtual stranger, and in fact the goal of therapy seems to be to destroy all boundaries, especially if those boundaries are an impediment for the therapist’s power.
The reason that I went to therapy for was minor, but I have talked with a few victims of serious abuse and everytime the trauma manifests as a skewed idea on what they consider acceptable behaviour from others. As humans we learn what is acceptable behaviour from how we are treated, and this can lead to problems if people are subjected to abusive behaviour, which they will then consider normal. In my mind therapy should be about providing the client perspective on what exactly is acceptable behaviour from others, but instead I found that therapy was all about questioning any expectation I could have from other people, and from the therapist in particular. If I was upset because a person had treated me counter to my personal standards, then the problem was instantly deemed to be my personal standards, even if the standard didn’t create any distress 95% of the time. Of course if I simply accepted people treating me badly then at least outwardly I would be “over my issue” and perhaps the therapist would feel good about all this progress. The clear aim of the therapists has seemed to be to create the result which I see in victims of serious abuse. This is beyond baffling to me. This is not an anomaly, this is the goal.
It seems to me that as victims of their education, past abuse, and/or their own therapy, therapists have lost (or never gained) the understanding of what is acceptable behaviour from others, and in absence of such morality every human interaction is viewed as a power struggle. We need a mechanism to determine if a person being negative towards us is giving valuable feedback or if they have ill intent. This is crucial in order to function among humans, and it’s not innate. Without an idea of normal human behaviour the therapist has no internal mechanism for judging if the complaint towards them is reasonable or not, and therefore all complaints are simply treated as challenges to their power. They have to be treated as such because a deeply damaged therapist would otherwise be constantly manipulated. Of course, if a person is that unable to function it’s immoral for them have a job where they supposedly advice others on how to function. This is a situation of being treated by a doctor who has the black plague.
This idea of power being the only virtue repeats over and over. I find the concept of “unconditional positive regard” to be just another facet of it (although I have only experienced unconditional negative regard from therapists). Therapists have no idea what sort of behaviour is good, so they have to resort to blanket positivity. This is the thinking of a child. All positive feedback from the therapist, regardless of context, is supposed to be seen as caring, while all negative feedback towards the therapist, regardless of context, is seen as an attack. I don’t believe that therapists even understand that there are any other dimensions to human relationships than power. The conclusion seems inescapable to me: the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Quoting from Commenter: “I don’t believe that therapists even understand that there are any other dimensions to human relationships than power.”
I hadn’t thought of it that way, but this certainly fits some therapists I have tried.
A way I have often looked at it is that many therapists seem amoral — not “immoral,” because that implies some recognition of what is and is not moral; but “amoral,” meaning having no sense of morality.
I completely agree about the amorality.
I agree with all the distortions you describe, the false boundaries of trusting or surrender to a stranger, the maintenance of power. Even “unconditional positive regard” is paternalistic role playing. I never see the believers stop to consider that.
Unconditional negative regard – well put. They always assume that something is wrong with you, always undermine you. The client ends up as a person without boundaries. I ended up questioning myself almost every time I find sb’s behavior towards me unacceptable. Frankly, I have no idea how to regain myself. It feels to me that stifled emotions would have to be felt and expressed. I am permanently tense. I keep reliving the s… in my head. I don’t expect anyone here to tell me what to do (yes, I’ve developed a habit of assuring people that I don’t have expectations – another “gift” from therapy) and I think each person here has found their own way of dealing with consequences of abuse.
My plan is to go for a very long hike (a couple of months) hike across Europe. I am hoping that being extremely tired physically may help me relax mentally.
This is yet another post that rings a bell. All the patterns I’ve noticed in the behavior of “mental health practitioners” are described by so many of you here. My initial reaction to such behavior was simply disbelief (like, it is so sick it just can’t be true!), than suspicion it might really be happening, then resignation.
I have also come to the conclusion that therapists are mostly truly damaged people themselves and taking part in the therapy mumbo-jumbo is part of their coping strategies.
Frankly, those people seem to be lacking in any knowledge in human psychology (yes!) whatsoever – given their reactions to clients’ problems, namely reactions that do not help relieve the pain and solve the problem but exacerbate the situation and confuse the client further.
I could go on and on…
I am pretty sure that years from now people will see therapy as phrenology is seen now.
Critique–pardon the highly tardy response. I hope you were able to go on that hike or find some other head-clearing. I’ve gone through many stages of grief, disbelief and perspective trying to understand my harmful therapy. I agree that some of the least perceptive people I know are therapists. Their thrones are their Wizard of Oz curtains.
“It has been truly startling to find out how many therapists suffer from their own serious mental health issues. Had I known I would have never gone to see a therapist for my own extremely minor and temporary issue, only to emerge with serious emotional difficulties after being subjected to what I would call sadistic narcissism. ”
Sorry to hear that. Similar deal for me. Problem is the client knows so little about the opaque and evasive therapist. Musn’t self disclose they are taught, and so the client is in the dark about this person who will proceed to draw out all their vulnerabilities, shames, inner torments. And then surprise, you find out much later the therapist is a fragile as a child, or riddled with neuroses.
I went in with fairly serious difficulties, but I came out completely wrecked, having become entangled in a codependent train wreck. The result was obsession for the therapist, unexpressed rage, debilitating shame, and more. She said she “stood by the work” even while urging me to continue therapy at once, with another therapist. When the client, upon termination from therapy, urgently requires more therapy, it’s hardly a success. Other therapists were so threatened by my claim of therapy harm that they practically sh*t themselves, or simply denied it and blamed me. Collective cowardice and conspiracy of denial.
I’m in the wretched position of feeling desperately in need of help to deal with the rage and old wounds that were burst open by this childish and unstable therapist, but not trusting the biz at all. The thought of sitting across from another therapist, listening to their half baked theories, their vague methodologies, their infantilizing lectures, their pretentious speechifying, their ambiguous and confusing discourse, and their irrational urgings to trust them and the process… cant bear it.
I don’t know if I’d say heart breaking or gut wrenching. I spoke to great women at TELL and they suggested a long break from therapy. They were so right!
There is so much the therapist did wrong and they lies were so evil.
The level of insanity was scary. I am told it will never happen again but I just am not as sure as I could be. He knew what to say but he also reminded me of a bumbling idiot. He brought sex into the room and I think he could be borderline sex addict. I guess almost anyone can be tempted do so some bad thing and I wasn’t above it. But I am very very thankful nothing happened.
I spent so much time trying to figure it all out. It was a weird game. I am over most of it but an ounce of prevetion could have prevented such a waste of time and money…and I really am not the same.
IAMOTN–pardon this highly tardy response. I’m sorry for your entanglement, but happy TELL was able to help you leave. I too wish there was more information and truly informed consent. I spent much time questioning my sanity for contradicting the great expert. The first step in this consent would be providers presenting themselves with much more humility.
I can tell you that I have a number of therapists who are family members, among them one vicious narcissist who says she became a therapist because it was the only way she could relate to other people; one whose son committed suicide in his 30s and who frankly didn’t seem that upset about it on the outside; another one whom I suspect politicized her work to include women being upset about social inequality as a type of mental illness; one who aspired to become a ‘lay counsellor’, though didn’t, and is very “neurotic” also. I had the double whammy of growing up tended to by these people, and then trying to remedy the situation with yet more therapists. I’m 45 and still not particularly functional in any conventional sense, and have spent most of my life in one type of crisis or another. I’m finding other ways to get better, fortunately.
Critique, what a terrible situation and how horribly wrong for it to happen to you. This is the damage caused by therapy. As humans we are always trying to not make other people upset with us. We need boundaries to determine if people have gotten upset with us for a good reason, and if they have, we will try conform to not make that person upset anymore. With good people around this system works out great. Boundaries are necessary, otherwise we will try to fulfil the wishes of bad people. Trouble comes when we meet people who get upset for unreasonable reasons, and therapy is nothing else than being subjected to a person who gets upset over reasonable boundaries. A therapist with emotional difficulties will of course have unreasonable emotional reactions and trying to conform to them is the birth of trauma, like it must have been with you AdamP. Afterwards a person is left in shambles, not knowing what’s right or wrong anymore. Even more damaging that other therapists get upset with you just for telling them about reality, what an impossible situation. The fact is that even therapists with non-abusive pasts will have no understanding of healthy boundaries because of their education.
I see that deep down most people here hold out hope that maybe the therapist would suddenly turn into a reasonable person. I see that most of you deep down doubt your perception of the events, since it has gotten no understanding from therapists. Maybe there is a way of explaining things, maybe a phrase, maybe a standard of ethics that could be pointed out. My advice is to let go of this hope. There is no possible way to stop the therapist from attacking you, there is no winning this game. By accepting the notion that the therapist is a reasonable person you have already entered a hopeless situation. You would have to start by untangling all of their education, a gargantuan effort for anyone. The goal of therapy is to remove all boundaries since mistakenly therapists believe that having boundaries is the source of all ills. When a person shows resistance by having a boundary this is seen as a deep issue surfacing and it must be poked until the resistance, the boundary, is removed. It is true that a person without boundaries would not show as many signs of distress and in some sense it’s understandable that therapists would think this is the pathway to bliss. It is also true that some boundaries can be an indication of a trauma, but those boundaries are not the trauma itself, instead the lack of a better boundary is the trauma. Like the boundary of not trusting anyone is just the scar tissue that covers the lack of a healthy boundary of only trusting well intentioned people.
Like many of you I used to wrack my brain trying to figure out meaning from the therapist’s insanity, but this was just dragging me further into it. The only thing to do is to reject the game they want you to play. It’s not easy since therapists do their very best to convince you that this game will lead to salvation, nevermind that no such thing has ever happened, even for therapists themselves, you just need to be even more trusting and more open and have even less boundaries. They most likely believe in their own scam as well, which helps convincing others. The only way out is to see that this is like arguing with a homeless man if there are dragons chasing him; the mistake was made in entering the conversation, not in the arguments used.
Commenter,pardon this highly tardy response. From personal experience and reading, most therapists seem so gripped by unquestioned truths that they can discard all evidence that challenges their worldviews.They label our challenges as resistance and transference rather than considering any error in their foundational assumptions.
Was thinking about some of the basic dishonesties in the profession. How are thee dishonest, let me count the ways…
– First, they tell you very little up front, almost no informed consent.
– Then, if it goes badly, there are few resources to help a traumatized or harmed client. Typically, the help consists of some referrals to more therapists. The biz has not seen fit to organize any infrastructure for this purpose.
– If therapy goes badly, good chance the client will be blamed, either implicitly or explicitly. The outcome might also be framed as an anomaly, rather than an indication of systemic dysfunction.
– On the other hand, if therapy goes well, likely it will be framed as a validation of the system.
– When it comes to acknowledging client harm, therapists will often choose to protect the profession and their colleagues over the well-being of the client (at least in my experience).
– They describe what they do as “treatment” but then employ methods that are closer to religion or cultism or didacticism… love bombing, reparenting, behavior modification, thought modification, instructing, etc.
@ AdamP:Absolutely! They just leave you high&dry and blame you. Your last point – yes, that was one of the things that shocked me so much!!! I thought the whole thing was about supporting the suffering person and telling them they’re not crazy, validating them, etc., namely – client independence. Well no, they want to change you and, basically, tell you what to think. The whole thing is a mindf….
@Commenter
Thanks for your kind words. Yeah, it makes no sense getting back to therapy as you will most likely encounter similar s… . The biggest problem is that one is left alone to deal with the aftermath of the situation, as Adam said. The only thing I want is to be myself again.
I’m glad that you were able to see through them fast enough.
BTW I posted my story (with therapist encounters described) as a comment to selviafr’s 19th May post instead of putting it at the bottom of this conversation – a mistake , not sure how it happened.
Critique said, “The only thing I want is to be myself again.”
Oh, yes!. But often that can be oh, so difficult. I can more and more often be myself, but there are still times when I am “with” a therapist in my head. And it’s often so hard to get out of that (crazy) state. I am so lucky that I do have some other things that I can often get absorbed in; I feel so sorry for people who don’t have that internal/past experience resource.
critique said: “Frankly, those people seem to be lacking in any knowledge in human psychology (yes!) whatsoever – given their reactions to clients’ problems, namely reactions that do not help relieve the pain and solve the problem but exacerbate the situation and confuse the client further.”
This is certainly what I experienced. My last therapist seemed to lack understanding of core concepts, such as attachment theory, developmental trauma, and how problems in these areas might manifest in therapy. She was like a deer in the headlights. And as you say she reacted in ways that were re-traumatizing and confusing. I still cant believe I paid someone to have a dysfunctional and harmful relationship with me.
Commenter said: “A therapist with emotional difficulties will of course have unreasonable emotional reactions and trying to conform to them is the birth of trauma, like it must have been with you AdamP. Afterwards a person is left in shambles, not knowing what’s right or wrong anymore. Even more damaging that other therapists get upset with you just for telling them about reality, what an impossible situation. The fact is that even therapists with non-abusive pasts will have no understanding of healthy boundaries because of their education.”
Agree. You make some good points here. A therapist with emotional problems + their education and indoctrination = no win situation. The odds of having a healthy relational experience are quite low. And yes other therapists are bound to throw salt in the wounds because they have been trained to think about clients in a distorted way. I found myself so backed into a corner that I could only think to vent on Yelp. It’s a way to equalize some of the power imbalance by making a public statement the therapist cannot ignore. It’s an opportunity to turn the tables by evaluating the therapist, interpreting THEIR behavior, and so on.
To further give an idea of the mindset of therapists, as I see it, based on the attitudes of my various relatives-who-are-therapists… compassion has almost nothing to do with their choice of work. It’s about power and norms, and ‘how much compassion can you expect, how much suffering do you have to suck up’. It’s about teaching clients what is ‘reasonable’ compassion, and when they are ‘s**t out of luck’. Compassion must always be subjected to social norms.
The narcissistic therapist I mentioned above ( the woman previously known as my mother), prior to doing training at a psychoanalysis institute, worked in human resources, as manager. She specifically and unashamedly told me that she saw being an analyst as the next step after being a manager, therapy was just a more ‘in depth’ version of that. She also said that she was so invalidated and insecure growing up, that she she needed to become a therapist in order to have some backing for her perceptions.
I think many therapists are frustrated people who lack the creativity or guts to re-imagine life for themselves, and content themselves with passing their frustration on to others.
Regarding respect, a friend of the family who was a social worker once retorted to me that ‘there is no time for respect!’. For her it was inefficient, or some kind of luxury that would interfere with the “real stuff” of life.
Vis a vis their clients, I think most therapists, even though they are getting paid, still see their clients in a “beggars can’t be choosers” mode. The sense is that the client is such a mess, or so needy, that the therapist is doing them a favour.
Of course this a projection of the neediness of the therapist him/herself. I believe all my relatives who became therapists did so primarily out of their own need to heal themselves, or to spend time around (other) distressed people, but thought that doing so as a therapist was the more dignified ‘end of the stick’.
It allows them to immerse themselves in the theories, to be in therapy-mode permanently, but without the vulnerability. It’s not surprising that so many clients come away feeling the therapist is less mature than them.
Francesca, pardon my year and a half tardy response. I appreciate your insights. I personally find theory as the root of much of therapy’s evils. Taking human feelings and experience, distancing it, chilling and extracting it, is a strange way of learning to better function or learning any truths.
Francesca: I did come away feeling my therapist was less mature than I am (and I am not all that mature). Frightening to realize this after the fact, and it’s a testament to how well-camouflaged therapists are, until some conflict arises and their true self emerges.
As for parallels between therapists and managers in business, interesting analogy. I imagine in both cases it’s some need to control others as a means to compensate for insecurities. As someone (Eckhart Tolle) said: “power over others is weakness disguised as strength”.
I agree, therapy can go really wrong. I was lucky I met a very good one by chance when I started therapy in Paris. Actually, I wrote down my experiences – also how to find a good therapist, I put it online for free here: http://whatispsychotherapy.be/
Um I ogtta say alot of what you wrote was non-sense. I am a counselor by trade and I worked with a lot of abusive counselors, psychologists and support personnel in the wellbeing sector. I was shocked at the way they treat people so much so that I will never work with an organisation again. I have seen such horrific abuse from these experts that I am at the moment creating a website titled Professional Violence. You may have found a good one but in our Country looking for a good one is like looking for a needle in a hay stack. I have witnessed and been a part of horrific abuse from professionals for over 30 years. As I read about what you have written, you really haven’t done alot of research on it. I think you should stick to whatever it is you do. You shouldn’t write about things that you really have no clue about. You have some good things in there but the majority of it, NOPE!!
I wish there was a bad therapy survivors forum where clients (and possibly open-minded therapists) could offer solutions towards changing the standards of this profession. Most of what I see online are self-promoting professionals who gloss on the healing ‘benefits’ of therapy without giving equal attention to emotional harm that can also ensue. Do the consent forms that clients sign even mention it? It’s like the therapist gets to slip away from the responsibility despite the fact that the development of any relationship depends on the interaction of the parties involved not just one side. The client ends up paying the price of therapy’s failure, and then, there are also those stories of clients killing their therapists in a fit of uncontrollable rage… In that sort of extreme situation, yeah, therapy failed big time. The stigma on the psych profession still remains for good reason. How can you really trust someone who is paid to ‘care’? The first obvious red flag is the 50 minute hour. If therapists want to call it an hour, maybe they should show some integrity and work for a full 60 minutes with the client instead of gipping them the 10 minutes to keep for themselves and their note-taking! This is the only business I know that is legally allowed to financially shortchange their customers, crazy, huh?
I wanted to promote passing a state law (for each state) that when a client enters into therapy, the therapist must present them with a document containing certain information. The information would include what is considered ‘normal’ and ‘not normal’ (or not acceptable) for therapy. Examples: therapist is NOT to sleep with you; not to scream at you; not to tell you the therapist’s problems; not to make racist, sexist, etc., statements, etc. Also – it would contain the tel. of the state agency the client can call if he or she needs to make a complaint about the therapist’s behavior. However, as for myself, I don’t have the energy at the current time to undertake this. Any ideas?
I’ve been through a number of trial runs with different therapists (long, complicated story), and I’ve noticed how their consent forms are all different depending upon how the rigidness or looseness of the therapist’s personality. Some therapists would have several+ pages for the client to sign whereas others would only have one very bare bones page with a statement in bold not to call them in case of emergency (call 911 instead) which I thought came across as really hypocritical of their so-called ‘caring’. I understand that therapists don’t want clients taking advantage of their personal cell numbers, but I think all of these sorts of boundaries should be clearly discussed in the first session. The therapist needs to know enough (they’re supposedly the trained professionals after all!) to initiate this critical conversation in the beginning rather than expect the nervous, ignorant, or timid client to bring it up first. It’s just common sense to me, geez! I realize the info is out there online for consumers to research themselves, but why shouldn’t the therapist also show responsibility and take the time to clarify these details further when talking with the client? If there was a substantial forum for tackling the consequences of bad therapy (and bad therapists), maybe the participants (like us) can come up with a list of rules that therapists should be doing to better protect their patient’s mental well-being? Is there someone who could help create and run a forum like this? There’s strength in numbers, and I believe there are plenty of clients who have been hurt by this process (intentionally or not) and deserve to have their voices loudly heard so that others can also be more aware of what they’re getting themselves into when trying to decide whether therapy will be helpful or harmful. Unfortunately, the client won’t know until they risk going through with it.
Eve B: You make some good points. I was given the most paltry informed consent prior to destructive therapy. But of course it is much easier for them not to, as there is no real oversight, and if they gave an honest rundown of the risks it might eat into profits. If the product you are hawking is heavily flawed, better to go light on the detail. In general the profession seems mortified and avoidant around the topic of client harm.
Yes therapists get to slither away quite easily it seems. All they have to do is execute the “refer out” charade, which is a convenient loophole. Because they have co-opted the language of medical doctors, the client is duped into thinking something ethical and professional is necessarily taking place. In reality it can be a completely self-serving move.
As for client blaming, seems to be be endemic.
So, bad therapy in outline might be: very little consent up front, harmful experience, client blame on the back end, therapist sneaks away.
I just don’t see the point in enforcing rules on people who are fundamentally incapable of even a normal human interaction.
So long as the bad therapists are penalized for their bad therapy conduct, it could help minimize the harm they could do to others later on, especially if their reputation is in the public eye. It doesn’t matter what they’re incapable of if there’s enough word of mouth about their ineptitude so that they lose their paychecks (the clients). The APA can try to protect their cohorts all they want, but they can’t stop clients from candidly speaking out. Even though I’m not pro-therapy, I still do somehow believe that there are some good therapists out there. The psych profession system as a whole, however, definitely needs to be re-revolutionized and rocked upside its head. I think the fear of these professionals from prioritizing the harm being caused is when therapy becomes more of a private practice money-making business than a personal and sacred process that is supposed to help heal the injured mind.
I also believe that there are indeed some good, ethical therapists out there. But the general ethical standards are so low that the profession is a haven for the ethically challenged.
For example, my impression is that when a client posts a poor review of a therapist online, the negative comments get removed (I suspect by some outfit such as reputation-dot-com). I think the profession could be improved considerably by *requiring* therapists to allow uncensored comments on a site where clients could give “reviews” of therapists — perhaps something like rate–your-professor. Such a site could be set up to encourage clients to give helpful reviews — e.g., what are strong points; what are weak points. And make it unethical for a therapist to have a negative comment removed!
As another example of the low standards of the profession, search on “Dilemmas in Ethical Practice and Strategies for Decision Making ” to find an announcement of a workshop with that name that was offered for continuing education credit for therapists. The presenter has lots of “credentials”. The description includes,
“At the end of this workshop participants will:
1) Be able to identify three of the five general principles that underlie all APA Ethics Code Standards
2) List three areas of vulnerable areas for practitioners
3) Identify three key steps in ethical decision making”
Identify three of five? List three areas? Identify three key steps? This sounds pretty Mickey Mouse to me — not what I would consider promoting high standards.
I think a rate-the-therapist review site is a great idea, Mary! I just noticed that there is something like that for professors and physicians, but neither have really shown detailed postings by consumers. The setup where strong/weak points can be commented upon sounds fair to me. Unfortunately, therapy is a profession where slander can immediately ruin a practice so I can’t see the APA or many therapists brave enough to support this kind of effort towards protecting the client.
I think those cases which lead to obvious client harm should provide the basis for what still needs to be enforced and changed within the standards of the therapy profession. The problem lies in the grey areas when the therapist can’t see that their ‘help’ is really hurting the client. Or neither side recognizes it until it’s too late… I suppose the client can always sue the therapist, but how often does that happen?
The idea is great and needed but from experience I can tell you, even with a site like Yelp, that negative comments will be removed. The psychiatric/psychology associations are too powerful and can make it difficult for sites to display negative reviews. Psychology is just a humanized religion where the therapist is Deity. It’s a con game from my experience and most people playing the game are delusional and conditioned (ie brainwashed) to certain responses. Start a journal and take care of yourself – it works and is far less costly in terms of both money as well as energy.
I’ve followed Yelp for years, and there seem to be plenty of negative 1 star reviews for all sorts of businesses mixed with the positive ones. Institutions with self-serving motives want people to believe that changing their minds isn’t possible (which would be ironic for the therapy profession). There’s still enough bad stigma attached to the psych field that it’s worth the effort to keep the awareness of bad therapy in the public eye. The APA can’t stop the truth, especially not in this internet age. A journal can’t give the kind of feedback or perspective that an external, supportive audience can. At least forum participation is free. I often wonder why psychologists believe they’re worth $200/hr, and why I’d be willing to pay that when there’s no guarantee of a ‘cure’ anyway. It does make me feel awfully stupid and gullible the more I think about it.
In the last few years Yelp has had a tremendous backlash regarding negative reviews and has been quietly deleting them to save face, so to speak. My personal experience with reviewing a particular therapist on both Yelp as well as a few other sites leads me to say this. My reviews were professional and respectful in tone but called the therapist out for what I saw as unprofessional on her part. And, yes in the age of the internet money speaks volumes over free speech when it comes to commerce. I don’t disagree that we should speak up but we also need to find means to make an impact so that others are spared the financial and emotional turmoil a bad therapist can cause.
Thanks for your supportive words Mary and GW! Does anyone have stats on whether therapy has helped people more than causing harm?
Eve,
Re ” It does make me feel awfully stupid and gullible the more I think about it”: The profession is very good at appealing to our weaknesses to get us believing that they have something to give — even the high price contributes to the “promotion” of the profession. We’re too trusting and somewhat gullible, but not really stupid for falling for their line. I think that most of them have fallen for their line as well, and really believe they have something to give, which makes it hard not to trust them.
Regarding Yelp, I posted a negative review of a therapist earlier this year. It’s still there. My therapist’s response to this was to recruit a few people to write positive reviews. Very symbolic. To protect her business and her self-image, she immediately sought to negate me, where before when I was compliant she was totally “there for more”. As someone said, the biz, despite its marketing, is always self-serving before it is client-centered. Might seem obvious but it’s worth acknowledging explicitly.
Hey AdamP, would it be ok for me to check out your Yelp review? In my city, I don’t usually usually see many postings with doctor reviews as I’d like, but there still seems to be at least enough mix of poor to good reviews so that Yelp doesn’t appear as obviously biased to protect these sorts of shady professionals. As easy as it is to bash bad therapy/therapists, allow me to try to be an ‘angel’s advocate and ask about those who seem to have benefited positively from therapy (though I still believe more are harmed than helped). There has to be some good to it if (that’s a big IF) practiced properly and with a compatible connection?
EveB — Re: sharing my Yelp review, I prefer to preserve my anonymity here. You can find a variety of therapist reviews on Yelp by just searching on different locations at random.
By the way, does anyone know how or would like to help create a small forum community that’s an extension of Disequilibrium’s blog comments? I can’t find the kind of support we have here in discussing the concerns regarding therapy from the client’s point of view and the therapy profession as a whole. I honestly can’t find any online forum that tackles these kind of topics in depth…It just seems easier to me to read our discussions in a more flexible format than one lengthy scrolldown page. Disequilibrium has kindly given me permission to ask you all about this idea.
I had finally gotten in to see a therapist I met through a group s/he runs. It was like dealing with the soup Nazi to get a place in her therapy schedule. I truly admired her in group, so I felt she would be safe based on those interactions.
For the most part, I found there to be an essence of a “shaman” hierarchy that could be, at times, of oppressive nature. Under the urging of keeping an open perspective, the trust in myself and experiences faltered and my boundaries of my own truth that I skewed to his/her omnipotence. Part of this is attributed to the “lead” dynamic of the therapist as tested & board approved rationality over the more “unstable” client. The other part is my own willingness to be influenced by that process and distrust myself because of that hierarchy.
I found the facade in group was more publicly friendly than in private therapy. In essence, I detected a judgement though the declaration of none was reiterated. This judgement became apparent in my deciding to leave another group s/he ran in which I was invited to. Because I am becoming more judicious of my boundaries overall, I am closing the window on the sometimes destabilizing “open minded perspective.” This is a good thing in my experience.
The second group of which I was part of, elicited a nonverbal initiation pecking order that was palpable. It was not as welcoming outside of the group as it was within. The public V private facade was much different and the spin each put on my personal inventory with her in private put my therapy in private at risk in the sense of safety of disclosure. This is because his/her loyalty to these group members spanned a consistent number of years. I was new. The majority rule tends to influence leadership.
The group was often told to “call others out on their BS” and to me, this is not safe nor professional encouragement. Creating conflict in a situation such as this is anything but safe. IOW, your mileage may vary and not everyone is in agreement that this is a prudent approach. These individuals are not trained in therapy and this hard line delivery can damage a person who is not of the same approach. For me, this, influenced me to drop out rather than endure high conflict of being “called out” for presumed “BS”. I knew the spin being put on the truth and despite my attempts to clarify the truth, I was met with hostility by my therapist in a way that the words were “do what is best for you” but the other ironic surrounding argument was to return and say goodbye. I had thought about leaving since the first incident with a group member but I stuck it out and kept my mouth shut. I was encouraged to call this person out on it, which I disagreed with. The next time with another member, I tried my adult skills as prescribed by therapy and was met with being shut out.
In all of this I was encouraged to return under the guise that I owed them a goodbye. I disagreed, stating I owe myself boundaries and insist I protect myself from unwelcome drama. I was not gaining the skills, tools and shared wisdom I get from other groups. Furthermore, this is not my job, my family nor friends to which I wished to continue engaging with. Life is hard enough.
S/he was not happy with me and it was clear. Nonetheless, I felt so much better knowing I did not elect to attend a goodbye session with a bunch of people who were not protecting me and demonstrated a hard line approach in creating and utilizing conflict under the label of “growth”.
My therapist said we can still meet individually, but the truth is, I feel uncomfortable. I know the group was a “lab” for them. I do not want to be in a lab. I want to be in a safe environment as I transverse a world in which I already have difficulty navigating.
I really like my therapist, but this experience has made me question their training. I feel there is an insistence of seeing me as therapy-resistant in group because of my decision. This therapist does not agree with my reality on the matter. For once, I fully support my decision. That said, can I trust this person to help walk beside me through therapy rather than leading me in a safe and compassionate manner.
Funktional apologies for being a year late in response. I’ve never subscribed to the unfiltered honesty school, making my friends in peril of public appearances with not-their-best look hairdos. I don’t consider rebuking others for what I deem their weaknesses as a social skill. I admire that your perceptive powers and survival skills. In real life, I’ve appreciated the few occasions friends have pointed out my unnecessary drama. But I felt it out of friendship and not as some mandate imposed therapist. No one was “pleasing” a therapist in his brutality.
My therapy group itself actually was mostly kind and polite, maybe because we all were intimidated by the bullying therapists. The worst damage was done in my 4-week “termination” period, extended two more weeks until I had the guts to end it.
This is an awesome blog. I do hope you set up a forum or at least something other than a super long comment thread!
I don’t think I’ve had bad therapy (actually, I’m not so sure of that), but I do think therapy is of incredibly questionable value in the first place. I would even go so far as to say that nobody has ever, or will ever need therapy.
People need kindness, understanding, support, but not a therapist charging god knows how much for a 50 minute hour.
Funny thing is, I’ve been doing some reading about client dropout rates in psychotherapy. This is naturally of concern to therapists because it effects their bottom line.
The most interesting thing is, that in all the articles I’ve read, and all the various reasons proposed for therapy dropout rates (which can be as high as 75% for newbie therapists, and drop to around maybe 40-50% for everyone else on average) not ONCE is the possible explanation offered that maybe therapy just isn’t useful for some people, or doesn’t work.
I firmly believe the reason why they push the ‘therapeutic alliance’ so hard in therapy is because in therapy you’re basically paying for a friend/parental figure who is on your side for the duration of the appointment. I think therapy preys on our natural attachments to people we share with and care about and turns those instincts into money.
I am sure therapists do become therapists because they want to ‘help’. I think they go into training genuinely believing that they will be taught skills not available to lay people. I am also equally certain that by the time they realize they’re not really offering anything anyone with care and compassion can offer, they’re in far too deep to back out and they just start practicing.
It’s also interesting how many new therapists report ‘impostor syndrome’, in other words, they feel like frauds – because they are frauds, but because there is this big industry around therapy, they take that self awareness and they box it away in a therapeutic term which allows them to charge people for doing very little of any use.
I do think a therapist could be useful to someone with no friends or family, just in terms of a last ditch filling of social needs, but I also think friendly volunteers or subsidized social clubs could fill the same function at a fraction of the cost.
I agree with your words, Therapy Skeptic! I think good therapy/therapists are exceptions to the rule, but it has little to do with the training they received. I think the insane rates they charge for ‘talking and listening’ to someone’s problems reflects the profession’s requirements and bias towards higher graduate degrees as if extra years of study and writing PhD thesis papers can really turn someone into a better therapist. So even the psych institutions bilk their own kind because of course, these deluded students have to pay for that extended ‘education’ and fancy certification. Then, the cost passes onto the clients who usually can’t afford to pay out of pocket, much less get to choose a therapist who could fit their needs.
I don’t particularly like the word ‘disgruntled’ to describe all of our perspectives on this blog since the term gives off the same negative vibe as ‘whistleblower’ or ‘snitch’ even though what we’re saying is truth. I’m sure there’s a better word, and I’m trying to think of it…
I too wish for a forum format. I’m still researching and looking into further information…
I wholeheartedly agree. Few if any people need psychotherapy. We all need healthy ways of dealing with various problems and, of course, human understanding and acceptance. Talk is good. That’s why I journal. I found it to be just as useful, and more so, than spending $110 an hour for a woman who sat there and disputed most everything I said, tried to make anything that sounded even remotely negative out to be a positive or tried to make anything sounding remotely like self-denigration (gosh, I thought therapy was useful for dealing with negative habits and emotions) to be rooted in bad experiences rather than me trying to deal with something I wanted to change. On top of that, add the fact that this particular therapist tried to be a positive Mother figure to me – which I didn’t need – I had a good Mother but needed to deal with some of the bad elements of my relationship with her. In retrospect I see a great deal of unethical practices with the woman in addition to her projection of her own problems onto me. Add to that the fact that I am convinced that most of these people carry a grab-bag of psychological cliches with them and toss them into the session like confetti and defend them like religious or scientific dogma. The only thing I got out of her and a few others besides grief, and resentment was that I was talking and when I could keep her at bay so to speak – something of substance to examine came out for me to deal with. Thus, I eventually caught on that I needed to journal and deal with my issues on my own. Much cheaper and far more beneficial from my experience. Most of these people are leeches and cleave to their patients like prey. Definitely a vampiric element to some of these people. Their motto should be that of P.T. Barnum’s – “There’s a sucker born every minute”.
Yeah, my therapist spent a lot of time blaming my parents. And yeah, they were deficient and sucked and weren’t terribly good at parenting, but I had this strange feeling the whole time that what was being attempted was almost some kind of alienation. Like, if the therapist can make you feel as if they’re the only one who can understand or help you, then you just keep coming back to them. And it worked, for a while, until I realized that there’s nothing magic about just telling someone something if they just sit there and probe for more feelings. My therapist loved to wind me up and send me out in a distressed state.
I read a lot about people who like therapy who think leaving a session in a state of dissociation, or being unable to function for the rest of the day is just ‘part of the work’. No. It’s a sign that serious damage is being done to your psyche.
TS, apologies again for being late in response, for I so appreciate you voice and insights. I wonder too about how the thoughtful, educated people therapists often are can lie to themselves about superpowers they don’t have. I assume they have so much invested in their businesses, education and vanity that very few change course. There are exceptions like the late Robert A. Baker, an academic psychologist who, at the end of his career, wrote a blistering critique of the occupation. I agree that many institutions and activities fill the need that we hope for in therapy.
Sorry for the multiple posts, but I have another grudge. Whenever people are wounded by horrible therapy experiences, the first thing that is recommended to them is to go and see another therapist. So sick! I see post after post on public therapy forums of people who are so much worse off after therapy, and all anyone can do is recommend more therapy. It’s insanity.We need to acknowledge that therapy is dangerous and bad for a significant number of people, and if you’ve been wounded by a therapist to the point of exacerbating existing conditions or creating new ones, the answer isn’t doing more therapy, it’s getting as far away as possible as quickly as possible.
You are so right. There ARE other things we can do to help ourselves, besides therapy and BETTER than therapy. In my case, when I left my husband, I turned to very good books, took a good non-judgmental look at myself, and also spoke to wise friends. Since then, I have been through Landmark forum, a transformational workshop, and “Law of Attraction” materials and meetup groups. That is what is working for me; it doesn’t mean that it would necessarily work for someone else. But I strongly encourage people to look for things that will work for them. They are out there -believe me.
I really think that anything that offers social interaction and positive feelings about oneself will work. What those things are will differ from person to person.
In the thick of therapy, I couldn’t help but notice the way I felt was the way I had felt when entangled in past bad relationships that I knew had no future. That gut feeling has always been a sign to me to get away from something.
I stayed with therapy several months longer than I would have, because frankly, the culture is slavishly devoted to therapy and people will attack you for saying that therapy is anything other than wonderful. You start to wonder if there’s something wrong with you for not feeling the same way as everyone else appears to.
Therapy has become so much a part of the social fabric that questioning the wisdom of seeing a therapist is almost as taboo as questioning democracy. People assume therapy is a good thing, even if they haven’t been (actually, especially if they haven’t been.)
And, those who do subjugate their better instincts and become devoted to therapy defend it more staunchly than anyone else. Because hearing the negative things other people have to say about therapy gives voice to the niggling doubts they have to push aside to continue to charade.
IMO, anyway.
Therapy Skeptic: Definitely agree about all the urgings to leap back into more therapy following harmful therapy. I see it in the forums too. My own therapist urged me, almost frantically, to find a new therapist at once, do not delay! No matter what happens in therapy, the answer is always… more therapy. Was a huge mistake for me.
The absurd irony is that what many people who’ve been thru horrible therapy need most is to vent, openly and candidly. But most therapists aren’t going to tolerate honesty about therapy as a system or concept. So the client is painted into a corner.
People have become so indoctrinated into the therapy concept that the idea of stopping almost doesn’t register. LIke you say below, part of the social fabric. Apparently everyone needs a team of nannies and caretakers — therapist, couples therapist, life coach, controlling and paternalistic doctors, spiritual advisor.
You’re so right! It’s like the idea of not doing therapy isn’t even on the table.
I’m glad there are places like this to vent.
The forums are a nightmare. And you know what? Therapists like to deny that what is talked about on those forums represents typical therapy. But I’m not sure. I think the absolute mayhem that is wreaked on people is very typical of therapy. I just think that a lot of the time, people stay hooked in the attachment phase indefinitely, even past termination sometimes. So they idealize the therapist even when the therapist is acting in a way that any other person would never be forgiven for acting.
And those people (the ones who are clinging to the illusion of therapist as ubermother or uberfather) get very angry when confronted with people who have had the scales fall from their eyes, because the things people who have been hurt by therapy say reflect both their deepest fears, and the base truths of the therapeutic ‘relationship’. (Which should simply be called a transaction, because that’s what it is.)
Therapy is associated with talking out your feelings with someone who can really understand what you’re going through, and that’s what many consider to be good. Paying somebody $200/hr for less than an actual hour just to listen and pretend to care about you is what’s outrageous. There’s still plenty of negative public stigma to therapy and therapists. Even the movies tend to show therapists as ‘crazy’ shrinks.
Movies show everybody as ‘crazy’ in one way or another. There would be little dramatic / comedic value in having a sane, sensitive, ethical shrink in any kind of movie. So I don’t think the crazy shrink trope counts as stigma necessarily.
I maintain that therapy has ingratiated itself into the social sphere (though this may not be true everywhere) because ‘see a therapist’ is recommended at times when people really just need a kind ear. People have started abdicating the parts of friendship which are annoying or tedious or just not fun to professional ‘therapists’. I see it recommended everywhere online, for instance. Someone reports a personal problem, others start squawking on about seeing a therapist immediately.
It’s like, listening to your friends be sad or uncertain or scared or in pain is no longer something people want to do. And then they complain they have no friends. And then they go and see a therapist. Cycle complete! A lack of social coherency and care creates the need for these emotional vipers who sustain themselves by standing in for the functions that would be naturally filled by friends and family, and perpetuate their own existence by continuing to break the natural chain.
Money cannot be exchanged for empathy and care. It can be exchanged for goods and real services. I don’t see anyone on this board flipping out over a dentist charging them $200, for instance, because a dentist will actually do work that really relieves pain.
Therapists, on the other hand, perpetuate pain and take money for it.
I think it’s sad that people can’t rely on friends or family to listen to their pain, and I’m not sure why anyone would feel safer sharing their personal demons with a stranger much less be willing to pay for that. I tried it myself because I thought I needed it to manage my work stress except I ended up feeling worse due to other stuff that was pressured out of me. I then started to question and research the entire profession to find out what and who I was dealing with. From what I learned, therapists charge for their time, and I suppose we clients should feel lucky if they genuinely care about us and whatever we decide to tell them. However, it’s still our money, and they don’t deserve a nickel if we don’t believe they’re worth it. The problem is, it’s easy to be suckered into a bad deal and bad therapy when you’re emotionally vulnerable. I wonder how many infuriated clients have actually attempted to harm their therapists or successfully sued them for malpractice? A vicious cycle indeed…What comes around, goes around…
The thing is, I don’t think people do go to therapy to deal with or talk about inner deamons. They go because they perceive themselves to have a problem of some kind. Maybe depression. Maybe intimacy issues. Maybe they can’t stop eating cardboard. Something that feels unresolvable alone drives them to a therapist’s office, because as we’re all told ‘therapists help people.’
It’s the therapist who invariably leads the client down the path of ‘feelings’ and ‘childhood experiences’ and sows the seeds of attachment. It’s the therapist who sells a bill of goods of ‘unconditional positive regard’. It’s the therapist who acts as a cross between a parent and a priest. And it’s the therapist who, having stoked those needs, shames and frustrates them with talk of boundaries, etc.
People go into therapy with one set of problems, are told they have ‘attachment’ or ‘dependency’ issues, and proceed to live that out, encouraged by the therapist who makes their bread off that delusion.
It’s criminal, it really is. Modern day snake oil.
TS, I agree. Every human being is flawed and I’ll assume have vulnerabilities. My therapists, and all but a very few I’ve read from present a lofty authority which easily can lull a client into childlike servility. From there the therapist can implant the idea that the mere state of humanness is some kind of abnormality. I see this as being destructive to both the person and society in general.
A dark, but funny take on the ‘therapist blog’ trope: http://bestherapist.com/
Therapy Skeptic: Yes, therapists do seem to disavow the forums. Even the people on the forums say they are not representative of reality. It’s wishful thinking and denial. I’d argue that these forums are exhibit A for the ugly reality of the biz.
I got hooked into an attachment thing. And yes it persisted well beyond termination. Persists still, but intellectually and logically I see it for what it is, an aberrant and contrived version of a human relationship. I can’t really blame people for getting hooked into these things, given that deepest needs are exposed and manipulated. But at some point you gotta take a hard look at it and acknowledge the perversity of it.
“And it’s the therapist who, having stoked those needs, shames and frustrates them with talk of boundaries, etc.”
Yes! This to me is a central aspect of the abusive and manipulative nature of therapy. The therapist provokes all this sh*t, the client responds with overwhelm and neediness, then is punished for it. So warped. I think therapists are so accustomed to the therapy dynamic that they can no longer discern its impact on people.
And all the talk about boundaries is so incomprehensibly condescending and infantilizing. Every third client seems to be emailing their therapist too often, the therapist will then ‘teach’ the client about boundaries, the client will dutifully obey, likely suffering in the process, not realizing that the boundaries are artificial and unnatural and possibly also self-serving.
Your point about ‘teaching’ is an excellent one. I so often see therapy apologists saying how therapy is a place to ‘learn’ how to have relationships, or ‘learn’ how to deal with disagreements (which are usually caused by a therapist acting in a manner which a normal person would never get away with, but therapists can act as they like). I’m pretty sure a therapist who picks their nose and eats it in front of a client would be seen as ‘modelling’ some kind of healthy behavior once it got twisted through the lens of therapy.
Surely most people who go into therapy already have plenty of life experience with boundaries and such. Even the ones who break them know they’re there. Clients who ‘stalk’ therapists, for example, know they’re not supposed to be doing that. They’re not being taught anything. Everyone I’ve ever seen admit to that kind of behavior was ashamed by it, but felt a compulsion toward it.
And that’s because the therapist lulls them into the notion that for that one hour, they can be soft and vulnerable and open and loved. And then at the end of the hour, all that goes away and a client is expected to become self contained and independent until the week, when they will suddenly and magically become open and vulnerable all over again.
That is not how the human animal works. Not at all. It reminds me of The Little Prince:
“I have no need of you. And you, on your part, have no need of me… but if you tame me, then we shall need each other. To me, you will be unique in all the world.”
Therapists use a variety of psychological techniques to ‘tame’ clients, breaking through to the softer inner parts of them. but they do not take the rest of the fox’s words to heart:
“You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.”
The therapeutic relationship perverts, distorts and takes advantage of the natural bonding mechanism of human beings. The therapist avoids sharing of themselves, thereby avoiding their own attachment, but provoking it strongly in the other. And they take no responsibility for what they tame. None at all.
“And that’s because the therapist lulls them into the notion that for that one hour, they can be soft and vulnerable and open and loved. And then at the end of the hour, all that goes away and a client is expected to become self contained and independent until the week, when they will suddenly and magically become open and vulnerable all over again.”
This is one of my primary rants. It is really a sort of classic abuse pattern. To lavish the kind of attention that opens up so many needs and impulses, then shove the client out the door and say don’t bother me until next week, and if you do, I will respond punitively and give a patronizing lecture about boundaries… such a warped model. I’ve talked to some people who claim not to understand such boundaries, but I wonder whether therapy has stripped them of their innate judgement.
As for taking no responsibility for what they provoke or tame, absolutely right. For most therapists it seems that blaming the client for becoming attached or needy is as natural as breathing.
“the therapist lulls them into the notion that for that one hour, they can be soft and vulnerable and open and loved.”
That doesn’t describe my therapy experience. For me, therapy was laced with statements that were shocking, didn’t make sense. I dreaded it, and after sessions felt drained and relieved that the ordeal was over for a week. But then I would (and still often do) wake up in the middle of the night with thoughts of therapy. And still so often I hear something on the radio, or overhear someone saying something, or read something that reminds me of therapy, and get into that state of fear and whatever (I don’t know how to describe it) that therapists inspired (provoked?) in me.
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/psychoth.htm
I found this interesting link on the sham of therapy…Let me know what you all think, please!
I no longer believe that therapists honestly care about their clients because of all the iffy boundary rules and the hold your emotions together by yourself until the next paid session… and especially when events turn out badly and the therapist is allowed to escape the consequences while the client suffers the lingering aftereffects.
EveB: Thanks had not seen that article before. Lot of common sense stuff, but such is the cult-like belief in therapy that the self-evident truths as described in the article don’t seem to register with many people. The idea that therapist training does not equip them to advise on people’s lives or emotions or much of anything is so obvious when you look at it.
I wonder how many therapists, upon practicing for some number of years, realize what a train wreck it is but just keep going because of their investment in it. I found with my last one that she was able to let bits of acknowledgement and honesty leak out in moments of duress when I was saying how harmed I felt by her. But mostly she kept telling me and herself that the “work” was good and righteous. And, above all, I must not stop therapy now. Must go on, can’t go on.
Hey Adam, I’m researching how to expand Disequilibrium’s blog into a forum where it would be easier to post our comments. Right now, an IP board looks like it would be the easiest to set up. I’d like to get it up and running before the end of this week if possible, but I’m really a newbie at this… I’m willing to try this project for a year if there are enough people willing to be members and continue the discussion of harmful therapy and educate people to be more aware before they waste their time and money on so-called professionals who target feelings as a cash cow. If you have any tips or experience on maintaining a message board, please let me know, thanks!
I’m grateful for your article. When people experience grief, struggle with depression, or face relationship problems, other people are so quick to say, “Get therapy! Get counseling!” But, therapy isn’t a panacea, and everyone needs to listen to his/her own instincts and common sense.
My only foray into therapy was many years ago. I’d had a series of personal losses and been sidelined by grief. Instead of giving me the help I needed, a psychiatrist got me to commit to twice-weekly, unending sessions that were excellent for his own revenue stream. He proceeded to belittle and berate me, making me feel much worse and more lost. I’d been told to trust him, however, so I kept going back. I finally left when this man accused my recently-dead father of having molested me throughout my childhood — completely untrue — and tried to bully me into confessing what my dad “had done” to me.
Flash forward, and this psychiatrist is now a convicted and registered sex offender with a revoked medical license. He was projecting his own sick proclivities on to me, and perverting my pricey, time-consuming therapy for his needs! I’m so glad that I listened to my own feelings and got away from the man.
Apologies for my extremely tardy response. I’m sorry what you went through, but glad that you stood your ground to this charlatan. There is a great deal on the web about clients who successfully were manipulated by their therapists to think they were abused and later recanted. I hope you find strength in your self-preservation and wisdom.
I wonder if anyone has come across this therapist on Youtube — Kati Morton:
She seems like a sweet woman, but I find her cartoonish, simplistic, dumbed-down explanations of all things mental health to be terrifyingly ignorant and distorted. I get the sense that her target audience is adolescent girls, so maybe that explains some of her manner. Still, she posts videos by the handful on just about any topic you can imagine, influencing god knows how many people into believing ludicrous things about therapy, drugs, mental health.
In the above video, she reads slavishly from the DSM about BPD, saying nothing of consequence, and just reinforcing the dogma from the biz about these specious and contrived “diagnoses”. Her introductory statement on BPD — “It’s our mind’s way of coping with things”. Ok then.
I get the sense that her compulsive YouTube and social media posting is consistent with the basic makeup of many therapists — craving attention, wanting to be the rescuer, seeking validation from her many naive admirers, displaying little depth or sophistication of intellect or emotion, and probably quite fragile.
This video is incredibly paternalistic and patronizing, and yet almost completely lacking in substance. Therapists are just like plumbers she tells us.
Is she really a licensed therapist? Plumbers overcharge for their services too, but at least some of them can actually fix what you pay them for… Do you think the therapist market is saturated nowadays? In some states, anyone can call themselves a counselor or life coach without any ‘training’ or license. Not that having a PhD and charging $200/hr means you’re going to get a competent therapist either.
My therapist had bogus qualifications. he had a bogus doctorate from an American Bible college and a string of other letters after his name, he had made up. I was totally involved with him for eight years, and he eventually subjected me to emotional torture. I could get no help because at the time no one believed a client who criticised a therapist. Forty six years on, I have been diagnosed with complex ptsd. I have had some good therapy but I am still very dissociated and my memory doesnt take in new information. My experiences are published in “Broken Boundaries” pub. Lulu. I live in the UK and therapy is unregulated. There is only voluntary regulation and as bad therapists are usually narcissists or even psychopaths, they are not going to regulate themselves.
Hi, all! I have Disequilibrium’s permission to ask for volunteers to help with my ‘bad therapy’ test forum. It’s an extension of her blog so that we can expand our opinions and experiences on a more flexible format. I’m still working on the configurations and will activate the site soon. I basically need to know if the link and posting of messages work like they should. If interested, please contact me at eveb771@gmail.com or let me know on this blog, and I’ll give out the link. It’s only supposed to be a small and supportive community of people who need a safe place to voice and vent their feelings about a profession that makes a living off our feelings. I can’t promise how long I’ll be able to keep it online, but if it proves helpful, I’ll maintain it for as long as possible. Thanks!
http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/
If anyone is interested, the experimental forum is at the above link. It’s still in the testing stages, but please feel free to join in order to help me work out the kinks. Thank you!
I made the first post on Eve B’s new forum and would encourage joining her newly formed forum. The format will be easier than the long thread here.
http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/
Apologies for being unresponsive in the last several months. Life and not-to-critical health setback left me more introverted than usual. But I’ve enjoyed the discussion.
thanks for putting together the forum. it could not have come at better time for me, as i have been starting to come to terms that perhaps many aspects of my own therapy may have been more harmful than helpful over the years. i have been spending the past month trying to find and read as much as i could about this topic, a topic that especially feels quite taboo to discuss on other psych themed forums. it will be helpful to have a safe space to be able to talk openly about this topic with other people who have had similar experiences.
Some of us have been having some interesting discussions the last few weeks on Eve’s blog at http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/. Check it out if you haven’t looked at it lately.
Thanks Mary. Yes, I encourage everyone to support Eve’s forum.
Whoa…the initial post and the community around it is…awesome. Count me in as someone trying to recover from trauma long ago and trauma heaped on top of it due to therapy.
Talk about knots on top of knots.
I am joining Eve’s forum as soon as I can get accepted into it.
I also have a website that is my healing process that I am happy to share: http://www.thesandbox.life
Thank you!!
Research study on adverse effects in therapy seeks informants. https://aptmeasureofsafety.wordpress.com/
I encourage those who haven’t to go to the link Sigrun gave and consider participating.
The site explains carefully what the survey is trying to do: Get a sense of what the possible adverse effects of therapy can be. This is just a first step in being able to learn how to prevent these adverse effects, but an important first step. They are taking steps to preserve the privacy/confidentiality of participants.
I have filled out the first survey myself. It is well-designed: There is a first page that is free-response, then subsequent pages that describe particular categories of adverse effects and lets you add to what you wrote on the first page.
I found that the actual filling out of the survey has helped make a noticeable decrease in my continuing adverse effects — not entirely gone, but it was helpful to be able to write out things that I would be reluctant to say in person, or even in a blog like this.
I’m sorry I was asleep and missed this. Please keep us updated. I admire your activism.
For those interested in the subject of power in psychotherapy: I’ve put some comments on Eve’s forum — see
http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/topic/66-power-in-psychotherapy-comments-on-a-website-by-ofer-zur/
and
http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/topic/67-power-in-psychotherapy-the-power-to-name/
(These are both on the Open Discussion part of the forum, so you should be able to read them without having joined the forum, but do need to join in order to be able to add comments.)
I’m going to post this comment here rather than on the therapytheclientside forum, as I am not interested in delving that much further into the subject of therapy at the moment and I don’t feel like being bothered registering for yet another forum.
I am in my early 50s. I have been dealing with a chronic health problem for over a decade now, and it has prevented me from living much of a life. I am able to work full time but there is nothing much left over after that, so my leisure consists mostly of getting a few crucial chores done and spending lots of time online. I have found it extremely difficult to have one foot in the work world, with its social demands, and one foot in a hermit-like existence. Last year, this tension erupted at work, thanks to my inappropriately expressing my unhappiness about my life, to certain co-workers. Additionally, this past year I did not deal well with the emotional attachment I had formed to two female co-workers. (I am a single, straight male.) I haven’t done anything I consider really awful, but I have gotten into mild trouble and been given an oral warning about things.
For the first time in probably about two decades, I decided to go into therapy. I don’t have the money to be choosy, so I opted for using the counseling made available for free, through my work. During the first session I voluntarily laid out the minimal background I thought my therapist would need in order to grasp my current situation. My health problems have come on top of psychological scars. In fact, I had just found a pretty successful workaround to deal with that psychological damage, when, a few years later, the health problems pulled the rug out from underneath me. I didn’t get to enjoy the turnaround in my life for very long. The first session was painful, but, again, it was all my own decision to discuss what I discussed, and I thought the therapist handled it well overall.
In the second session, I got into the problems at work that had driven me to seek therapy. I thought it went reasonably well. The therapist grasped the issues I was laying out. Toward the end of the session I mentioned a disciplinary letter I had received along with my oral warning, at work. The therapist expressed an interest in seeing it so that she would know “what’s going on.” I said I would have to think about it. After the session I had a hunch this was going to result in a power struggle between us.
At the beginning of the third session, I handed the therapist a handout about a treatment I had recently received that has been making a huge difference in my health problems, since she also has some variant of the same health issue. At first she thought I was handing her the letter. I said, no, I had decided not to show her the letter. She seemed angry, but then she said (not verbatim!): okay, fine, so at least tell me why you don’t want to show me the letter. I hemmed and hawed at this point. I said that explaining that would defeat the purpose of not showing her. She wasn’t accepting that. She also said that the way I talked about the letter was “weird” and she made a sort of disgusted face. (For what it’s worth, she reminded me at that point of a sometimes mean friend I once had who was a recovering cocaine addict who had been diagnosed as bipolar.) I felt attacked. She then seemed to scramble to recover control over the session. But she didn’t need to control the session! I had been directing my own treatment since the first session. At any rate, she asked me what my therapeutic goals were. I felt rushed and unable to answer as I would have liked (in addition to which I was still upset about what had just happened). We ended up spending a lot of time on pragmatic communication issues, which wasn’t really what I wanted to talk about.
Toward the end of the session she was pushing the idea that I have Asperger’s syndrome. She did acknowledge that there is a new name for it, but she was still referring to it by that name. She grabbed a copy of DSM IV or V and asked me some questions. For the most part, the answers were “no,” though I did answer yes to at least part of one question.
Near the very end of the session, she noted the paper I had sitting next to me, with things I had wanted to discuss, and apologized that we hadn’t gotten to them. I said that was fine, not really meaning it. We made a little light chit-chat and I returned to work. As I was returning to work, I started to feel as though I wasn’t actually ready to deal with work. While at work, I also called to cancel the next appointment I had made with her. After that I went home early and cried as I have not in a very long time. (I am not much of a crier.) I was extremely shaken that therapy, which I had pinned so much hope on, was already letting me down. I still wanted someone to talk with about my feelings about the situation at work, and there was now no one to talk with.
I re-scheduled a fourth session, with the idea that I would confront the therapist with some of the transactions that had bothered me, but ultimately I canceled again. She had crossed too many red lines for me. I sent the therapist a letter and attached the notes I had drawn up for the fourth session.
I pointed out that my “weirdness” about the letter was response to the double bind she had created by saying that she was fine with not seeing the letter, but that she wanted me to explain why I wouldn’t show it to her, which in this case would have defeated the purpose. (Incidentally, nothing in the letter contradicts what I told her. The issue is a bit more subtle than that.)
I complained about her premature leap to a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome, given that she knew so little of my social history. I had only told her the bad stuff, so to speak. I haddn’t discussed my normal childhood, in which I made friends constantly; nor had I discuss my adult friendships or good relations with previous co-workers. Nor had I mentioned (why would I?) that I have received positive feedback about my writing over the years; or that, despite my mostly quiet demeanor, I do periodically come out with one-liners that other people find funny. (Yes, people generally get my humor, as long as I am not alluding to anything too esoteric. And that used to be less of a problem in my previous workplace where people had a cultural range of reference closer to my own.0
I also pointed out how her diagnosis fit in with her dismissal of my account of a particular key interaction at work. Oddly, she kept emphasizing what I told her the other person involved had said about it, focusing on the surface level of what we had said to each other (which was purely routine), rather than the non-verbal communication, which was out of the ordinary and quite hostile. Funny that I, as the alleged Asperger’s syndrome sufferer, was the one emphasizing the non-verbal side of the interaction. Basically, I apologized profusely for a non-verbal interaction in which I had reacted very out of character to a co-worker’s seeming anxiety, only to be told, third hand, that the other party denied there had been any “incident.” Very odd, I know. I apologize for keeping everything so abstract, but I am not sure how much detail I want to go into at this point.
Dealing with the aftermath of my bad experience with this therapist, I found this site, and ended up reading/skimming the entire thread.
I think my example fits with some of the themes previously raised on this thread. The therapeutic context is artificial, and therapists would do well not to draw too many conclusions about how clients communicate the rest of the time, based on how they communicate in therapy.
Clearly my therapist was not pleased that I was setting a boundary with regard to the letter–and so early in therapy. This, despite the fact that I had revealed so much painful material in my first two sessions. It sometimes seems that therapists are just greedy for disclosure. Whatever one doesn’t want to reveal becomes the most important item on the agenda. I am too old and confident about saying “no” to simply go along with such demands.
I am still somewhat puzzled by the speed with which she suggested a diagnosis. Insurance, for instance, was a non-issue in this case, since my workplace automatically provides x number of sessions. Perhaps she still is required to affix a label. I am not sure. She did also mention that an Asperger’s diagnosis would limit the amount of trouble I could get into at work, for legal reasons. But I was not looking for an escape hatch that I did not actually believe in. When I questioned her Asperger’s hypothesis, she, of course, mentioned that she had been a psychologist for a long time. And yet, I have been myself for a long time; but she didn’t bother to make sure she had an adequate sense of my history. I wouldn’t even have minded if she had that diagnosis in mind, but I didn’t like the way she pushed it into the foreground already in the third session, wasting my session time.
I am feeling quite a bit better now, and fortunately things have been shaping up okay at work. I am pretty sure I can avoid further problems there. I still could use someone to talk with about the emotional difficulties of working full-time without having any sort of normal life to talk about with co-workers.
I had previous experiences with therapy, which I may save for a later post. Nothing truly traumatic happened, but I never felt significantly helped by therapy, and some of my therapists were quite awful. Even when I was younger I didn’t have much qualms about firing a therapist, however.
Half-Hermit,
A lot of what you say fits with experiences I have had with therapy: The therapist engaging in a “power struggle,” using pejorative language (like “weird”), a disgusted look, trying to “be in control”, rushing into questions that the client is likely to need time to think about, prematurely making a diagnosis; the client feeling extremely shaken, needing a good person to talk to but getting the above instead; the therapist crossing boundaries that are important to the client, being dismissive of something that is important to the client, jumping to conclusions quickly and generalizing from very limited information; the therapist seeming greedy for disclosure. Those aren’t helpful qualities in a therapist – a good therapist needs to be cautious in drawing conclusions, respectful of the client’s pacing, sensitive to the client’s needs – and to keep any personal agendas (such as control, power, intimacy) out of the interaction.
But it’s good to hear that you don’t have qualms about firing a therapist – since a lot of them do seem like they need to be fired.
I can understand your not wanting to register for another forum, but you might be interested in looking at some of the posts on the Open Discussion forum at therapytheclientside, since you can read those without signing up for the whole forum. In particular, the ones on power in therapy that I linked in my post just before yours on this site might be of interest.
The most absurd thing about my work situation is that I got into the most trouble for being insistent about apologizing for how I behaved toward someone I have been on good terms with for a few years. I think the vehemence of my apology, if I may put it that way, tipped my hand as to how much I actually care about this person, ultimately making her uncomfortable. If I had just acted as if nothing had happened, I would have been better off.
HH:: Apologies for my 10-month tardy reply, which I hope you can still see. I’m sorry you had to go through this with such an oblivious therapist. I can’t imagine any justification for the power struggle–it strikes me as taunting. She sounds like someone who needs to simplify her life by putting people in neat boxes.
I don’t claim to have more than a lay person’s knowledge of Asperger’s, but I have known someone with it all my life. The fact that you have childhood friendships, express yourself well and seem well aware of yourself and social interactions make me skeptical, like you, of her glib conclusion. I doubt many people with Asperger’s could sort out a therapist’s bunkum so quickly and stand up to her. That should tell you everything.
Attractions are hard and frequently awkward. Attractions in the workplace with a friend are hard. People write the advice columns all the time. It angers me that you were made to feel bad for a merely human response.
I’m also a half hermit with some chronic health problems, so I understand the low energy, the isolation and confusion when what be a bright possibility appears and fades.
I’m happy that things have righted itself at work. (More evidence–no Aspergers.) Again apologies for my tardiness. Feel free to post here or at Eve’s forum below should you be inclined.
http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/
Best
Dis–
I dont know if you still are active or not, so i will keep this short. When I hear back I will gove the whole true story.
I am a victim of bad therapy too. I wince, feel your pain, share your anger at this disgracefull profession. I have to be fair. There are excellent doctors and psychiatrists. If there are good therapists who have had the minimal year and a half of online schooling…..I never met one. To think these scammers call themselves highly educated and are condescendly pathetic to our struggles boggles my mind. I have been hurt badly and am recovering from it slowly. I have been shamed, abandoned, humiliated and disrespected. I was suicidal for 2 months. I have clawed my way back through my own strength and determination. When I think how close i was to dying, I shudder. I am lucky to be alive. And guess what….they all told me how weak I was and how incapable i am of handling difficilties. They lie! I am living proof of some kind of strength to still be alive. I was sexually assaulted as a child. The trauma was horrible. This feels similiar if not exactly the same as that abuse. I feel like I have been violated and abused again. And these highly educated professionals who supposedly are experts in talking to people–refuse to speak or deal with me concerning my complaints and experiences. What cowards. They said I was insecure and lacked assertiveness. Yet i have the courage to stand up and face them and talk about what went wrong, yet they refuse. Who really lacks courage and strength? I hope I can help someone to not go through the hell I have been through.
Alan – It is a courageous thing to stand up and speak the truth about your experiences. With the amount of abuse in our world it is disquieting to think that it exists in the places where we seek solace and healing as well. I do not doubt there are some good therapists but I think part of what happens is many struggle to make a living and end up consorting to abusing the situation by convincing their patients that they require more time than necessary’ or they are not experienced enough to have a plan where the therapy is deemed complete and thus ends the relationship. I am so sorry to hear of your experiences. I have been through several therapists and finally concluded I could do most of the work on my own. Took along time and emotional maturing for me to get to that place though.
I rarely see activity on this thread anymore and don’t get to my email more than once a week. I wanted to respond so that you know you aren’t alone in your struggle but believe you have seen what’s needed to leave that behind and start your healing from both your own life experiences as well as therapist abuse.
If I don’t get back to you again I wish you the very best. Please make sure that you keep yourself from being isolated. Even if you may not be able to talk about these things to just anybody – seek family, friends, and social situations with people you share interests so you don’t get stuck fixating on your problems. That will help towards your healing and finding what’s good in life. -GW
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Alan, thanks for sharing your story. There are others who have gone through their own bad experiences with therapy and therapists so please believe that you’re not alone! Disequilibrium is presently active voicing her opinions in this small community forum if you’d like to check it out: http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/
Alan, I’m so sorry to read that the therapy industry added to your already heavy burden. I too am disgusted with this service (I hesitate to use the word profession) which promises so much that it can’t possibly deliver. I don’t want to indict everyone in the field, but as a body, they behave like tyrants, naked emperors who don’t want their imposture exposed.
I have found an upside in the lessons of skepticism, dismantling most of my deference to unmerited authority figures, and understanding my own self-reliance. I found there are other ways to feel better beyond sniveling in a room with a pretend parent. I wish you peace.
Admittedly, I’ve been asleep at the switch here: distractions, health inconveniences (as opposed to serious threats) commitments and other writing projects, and US politics have been overwhelming. Meanwhile, Eve has set up an honest-to-goodness threaded forum for discussion. I wish everyone well.
http://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/
Glad I found this post. I had a bad therapy session a few days ago, and I feel so bad. She used expressions I said about myself a few sessions ago. She said them as her own conclusion about me, and she was literally flipping through her notes.
When I talked about what I want to do in the near future, she said: “you made plans before,” like she was almost sure I will fail. It made me feel very bad, and the more I think about it, the angrier I am with the whole situation.
I think therapy can do more bad than worse for people who have no major issue. Maybe it’s useful for people who have an addiction or other problems like that, but for people who don’t absolutely need it, I am sure it does more wrong than good. And therapists should not even be allowed to take into therapy people who do not need it. It should be in their ethics rule book.
Teodora, I’m sorry that happened to you. I agree, that there’s nothing mystical about the therapy process and unless there’s definable goal like overcoming addiction it might be better to leave well enough alone. For instance, I didn’t realize when I was in my early 30s that hang-out-with-your-gang days of school and early adulthood were over and it becomes much harder to make and maintain close friendships. I thought something was wrong with me.
I did remain in awe of “authority” long past my expiration date, so had difficulty shaking off the therapists’ insults. It took me a long time to win perspective that an assessment wasn’t true just because a therapist said it.
Their training should include staying off their high horses. Sigh.
Its because they’re text booked one’s guys/gals. Idiots honestly. These people attain a degree by playing God with precious lives. Follow your instincts. If you feel your being violated and re-victimized then you most definitely are. Because of idiots such as these, ok not all but most because looking for a good counselor is like looking for a needle in a hay stack believe me. Because of idiots such as these. Mental health has risen, prison rates have risen suicide in our country in the last year was 600 mostly youth, in a population of 4 and a half million. The year before that it was over 500 lost to suicide and over 500 the year before that year. Crikey!!! Domestic violence has dramatically risen, crime and robbery have dramatically risen. These idiots earn $800-1000 a wk. YES! Truly. To what????? damage more lives. effin idiots arrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh. I’m in the process of writing a book on these professionals pertaining to their monstrosities
I can’t imagine a counselor learning ANYTHING in training that can confer Life Wisdom. Yet most counselors I’ve encountered or read from counterfeit a super-human air of omniscience and divinity. I wonder if they’d help more clients if they did everything to discourage this illusion rather than stoke it. I suspect though that encouraging egalitarianism would be far less lucrative.
Its criminal what they get away with by destroying precious lives time and time again. Gosh the amount of complaints from clients pertaining to therapy is phenomenal. No one gets heard there’s nothing anyone can do. ‘Why they’re qualified’. Just criminal but then that’s the system it’s everywhere. lawyers, police, accountants, counselors, social workers and psychoogists. They get away with it. Authoritive figures, power and control
And of course they’re not real “authorities” in anyone’s life. But that doesn’t stop them from pretending to be.
End of day its abuse, a violation of Human Rights! The how to be and NOT to be, what to do what NOT to do saga. I’d say they definitely don’t practice that stuff in their own homes because it shows in their shallow expertise when counseling. They need to be taught in the institutions they train in how behind un-wellness and trauma are great people, intelligent people, wonderful beautiful people struggling and extremely un-well, but people that when they pull through have the potential how to be great and be whoever they want to be.
Counselors don’t inspire, encourage, uplift, empower and embrace with deep empathy. If your un-well they treat you as such and insist with snide remarks if somethings positive, well i can do this, do that, talented in this area that area.
Their poor attitude: Ignore, not listening or remind you constantly how un-well you are. I am so passionate about this stuff. For over 30 years I have wittnessed corruption within the social service system, honestly it is gut wrenching what these people get away with at a high cost. High pay and destroying and re-victimizing people’s shattered and battered lives. It’s surely getting worse
They seemed to be so blinded by theory they abandon basic empathy and courtesy with another human being. If similar dynamics were established outside the consulting room they easily would be rude to abusive or manipulative.
To be fair, many well trained therapists do study failed treatments and work very hard to understand their contribution to any seemingly treatment failures. I’m sorry you didn’t find one of them. I’m also so sorry you didn’t find literature about failed treatment as there are reams of literature on the subject. We study cases that went south. To learn. You’re right, there are many poorly trained clinicans and it is hard to know how to find one who is healthy,let alone properly trained. Don’t throw the entire profession under the bus. Some of us are trying very hard to be humans with expertise and experience in helping other humans.
Patti, if you sincerely hope to comprehend iatrogenesis, learn to read criticism without patronizing. I didn’t solicit your piteousness nor your instruction “don’t throw the entire profession under the bus.” If you understood ANYTHING, you’d know I’m the last person to welcome your therapist role-play.
Now, I’m patronizing you on purpose. Sadly, you patronized me without the slightest awareness of how you communicate.
Clients understand this essay. It seems you got nothing from it except your need to defend yourself.
If you want to contribute, kindly point us to the “reams” of literature about failed treatment. Most ethics discussion I found was devoted to protecting the clinician from liability issues. I found relatively very little in the literature ocean about foundational, systemic fallacies that harm.
You made no effort to comprehend the discussion or the culture here. Unfortunately, your post is a splendid demonstration of why it exists.
Patti just so you know. I am a qualified Counselor. No, I wouldn’t throw the entire profession under the bus but my gosh most definitely most of them should be under the bus. My motivation and inspiration of becoming a Counselor was due to being extremely unwell years ago. After Countless counselors a couple of psychologists over the years of my unwellness. I felt emotionally abused by all of them. I felt so violated not to mention they did not understand whatsoever what I was going through.
They had no answers. At first I thought it was me, I wasn’t qualified so what would I know, I’m the patient, yet I’d come out angry, crying. I went in feeling bad and I’d come out feeling worse. After a while I’d go see one give them 3 chances dump that one, get another one dump that one, that went on for about 4 years of various Counselors that I thought were absolutely useless not to mention their tendency to be so judgemental, put words in your mouth and twist what it is you were trying to say among other ghastly traits.
It’s not easy telling them what your going through and when you find the courage to do that you get it thrown back in your face.
They play God with people’s lives, my life, and they didn’t have a clue how to heal or genuinely emphasize. Dictators would be a perfect description of them. I have witnessed corruption within the Social Service system for over 30 years.
Please guide me to the reams of literature about failed treatment. I can bearly find stuff on that, Counselors and psychologists are very rarely ever made accountable for the injustices they cause, these things are never recorded that I know of so please guide me to this reams of failed treatment . I would love to see that. I have never seen that. I have seen literature on bad counselors but that’s it.
I became a Counselor because of the consistant failed treatment that I recieved. I totally believed that There is no hope for the little people, the nobies as we’re classed in societies eyes. We’re doomed. Today Domestic Violence, suicide, and mental health issues have risen in our Country 93% since 2011. What’s perturbed about all this is what is this saying about our heighrachy’s i.e. counselors, social workers etc. It says that they are getting paid $800-$1000 per week playing God with peoples live’s when they really don’t have a clue what they’re doing, therefore getting paid to damage lives.
To oppress, supress, undermined and belittle to name a few. I have clients under me at this time and everyone that comes to me, I totally understand that I am dealing with highly intelligent people who are unwell. I go out of my way for the people I counsel. I remind them how beautiful and intelligent they are and how the world needs them. I let them know that I can’t fix them only they can do that. I’m just a guide who has solid tools to get them on the right track or a track due to loosing their way.
I can connect with them on a deep level because I have been in their shoes, had countless of awful counselors and I genuinely give a damn about justice and deep empathy for the people.
The injustcie in our social service system here is disgusting. I’d like my own business where it would clearly be about people first. Make Counselors etc accountable and strong monitoring to be put in place so they are not damaging the people. Its not like that here, its people last with terrible therapy.
I can’t speculate about the universe, only the tiny corner I’ve observed. But based on my experience and my reading, I suspect the problem is in theory, training, foundations and systems.
In nearly all my reading, I see a huge dissemination of pseudo-science presented as fact. Clinicians claim to know the unknowable, read minds, claim causation for which they have no evidence and be generally omniscient. The hubris trickles down the the consulting room where the therapist bases treatment on pure speculation, “interprets” unseen events and decrees causation that can’t possibly be known. Prominent among unproven theories is that some kind of “healing” is actuated through extended wallowing in sorrow.
Somewhere on the road too many therapists have become the kinds of arrogant, domineering human beings that many of us would avoid in social situations. They consider themselves everyone else’s supervisors, priests, super parents and auditors, claiming authority they’ve never earned. All this is obnoxious at dinner, but enfeebling for people who seek answers from these tyrants. In my sampling, very few therapists understand social hierarchy they create or the subtle power signals they broadcast.
I disagree with many of therapy’s truisms: that human beings are to be fixed or healed. We’re all on a continuum of flaws/strengths, calm/anxiety, contentment/distress. I see most, if not all, therapy-speak and labels as quite arbitrary.
In my exposure to it, the mental health industry chronically overpromises. No one “heals” by being in someone’s magic presence. I think the consulting room, at best, provides a sounding board, a resource for an outsider’s perspective, and a space to consider new options. It should be an exchange between equals where no one is an life expert. Even when a client mentally resolves to change and grow, she runs smack up against relationships with bosses, partners and friends who can frustrate best-intended plans. Change is not a sure bet; it’s an ongoing experiment.
Perhaps “humility” is given lip-service in therapy training, as a platitude. I see little evidence in practice.
Love everything said here, sooooo agree. Yes it should be an exchange between equals. After all under the Counselor hat etc….we’re all still human beings definitely not omnipotent like most consider themselves to be where they claim they can fix you if you just bare with them for the next 6-12wks. Rubbish! If the therapuetic education is all embracing, uplifting, respectful, with the main focus being on their wellbeing it can be a pleasurable, uplifting. positive experience more for them of course which is the sole purpose of this all.
Counselors, Pychologists, yes are sounding boards, absolutely. A space to consider new options, so on point, and providing the best options too with the net works that Health workers have available to them.
When I Counsel I see beautiful, intelligent human beings like myself. I have the view that no-one is better than me and no-one is better than you. We can change and grow strive to work on our wellness which is vital for us to do and learn self love and still for the majority of the entire world we can do all this wonderful, amazing work on ourselves and bam run up against bosses, partner’s and friends with their dangerous plans, hidden agenda’s making it possible so we fall back in the hole we’d been in so long. That is so correct.
Healing is a never ending process. But fight for our lives we must and never allow any Health worker to steal our beauty by imposing their belief systems and values onto us. This is not about them as much as they would like to think so, it is about special old you.
People need to follow their instincts in therapy. If it aint working then your most probably right. Get the hell out of there before getting more damaged. Listen to those voices when it says my gosh I might be unwell but this person is talking alot of shit. Follow those voices in an instant
Thanks, Llani.
I think therapy might have been more helpful, or at least less damaging, had the therapists set out realistic expectations for the process and refrained from promises they couldn’t possibly fulfill.
Point me to a bibliography if I’m wrong, but I see little literature which discusses the therapy relationship in real life terms. I argue that far from the loving, safe space it claims to be, it’s actually a model for abuse.
Say we sit down excitedly at lunch and I tell you about this new guy I’m dating, Murgatroyd, Merg for short. Being with him is like being on an exhilarating drug; he focuses entirely on me, making me believe he’s perfectly attuned to me. But then I learn Merg’s rules. I learn nothing about him and don’t dare ask. I can only see him an hour a week, time he cuts off strictly by looking at his watch. Try to extend the hour, the supreme kindness stops. Sometimes I can express myself with him, sometimes he judges me. I tell him about my life and he “interprets” events he’s never witness. If I think he’s wrong, he becomes affronted. He gives me exercises for improvement, imparting that he’s somehow more evolved as a being than I am. But I can never be sure, because I never see him in any other context. He pretends to understand my mind and emotions, telling me that if I go through certain exercises I will “grow” or “free myself” though those terms are undefined.
You might suspect that Murgatroyd is kind of controlling and abusing, but you can’t convince me because I’m so clouded by the exhilaration part.
Is Murgatroyd really a model relationship? Will he teach me a new kind of attachment, as if that can be taught? Am I really safe and secure with him. I don’t see how.
How about I put another psych concept in concrete terms: change and growth. I go to my therapist and talk about my anxiety, and we agree that a source of that is because of my bully boss, Matilda. My boss sometimes yells, but other times demeans me in subtle ways, ignoring me, imparting I’m not competent or saying backhanded things. I strategize with the therapist how I’ll stand up to Matilda. I do assertiveness exercises in sessions. But when I speak up to one of Matilda’s rages, she fires me the next week. Being in a field where jobs are scarce, I’m unemployed for two years.
Or, I vow to be more expressive and less inhibited. I chose a TGIF session where decide to be uncharacteristically, loud, flirt with a surprised friend, and tell a neighbor what I really think of her in the name of honesty. Consequently, I’m minus an invitation the next time TGIF rolls around.
Growth and change sound great –inside one’s head. But we live with other’s own mine fields, sensitivities and moving parts. We operate around consequences the therapist, and often we can’t calculate or anticipate. A big “go you” pep rally doesn’t provide skills to change one’s place in the hierarchy, to try a different direction at a party, to be more visible at the office, etc. I think these are instincts developed through experience and living, and have little, if any, connection with facing how mean mother was.
Your welcome disequilibrium1 and thankyou. I guess being clouded by exhilaration are normal for woman and men. Woman in domestic violence experience this often. They leave a violent relationship and more often than not end up in another. Why? No education around that for our woman and our men who suffer from violence. People ignore those signs that you’ve expressed pertaining to Merg, hence impossible to convince anyone when clouded by exhilaration.
Key is to work on thyself, strive to learn self-love, strive to heal, re-build self-esteem and confidence before jumping into another relationship which always usually ends up abusive and controlling yet again. Learning to see the signs at the beginning when courting. Take precautionary measures to truly take those early warning signs seriously because later on down the track and not to far down the track either, you, me, anyone will end up in the same death trap of power and control, hence jailed within thyself because you can’t escape the trauma of abuse.
The more abused you are the more you stay because your dehumanized in every way. Your being is raped, murdered, disrespected in every way and are powerless within to do anything. Crippled by extreme fear, panic attacks, and depression. These things need to be taught in school to our precious female and male youth. As the majority of people don’t know how to be treated and think that abusive after a while is normal. There needs to be a specific class in school where your taught, how to bielieve in yourslef encouraging them always about their beauty, majesticness and intelligence and taught how to respect others but most important how to respect themselves.
As for standing up against a controlling boss hmmm not a good idea. Like abusers they can’t see reason, common sense, truth and reality to name a few. She’s a boss that’s a dictator, there is no equal ground because like the abuser, she suffer’s from narcissistic personality disorder. There is no equilibrium. They are higher you are lower and that’s all there is to it.That’s their belief system, self-absorbed. Life is all about them and no one else. Precautionary measures when dealing with people like this in the work force, of course, they will sack you if they have the power to do that. They’re horrid that’s why.
Most of us always live with other’s mine fields that’s just life I guess. Family, friends, partners. We or most have people in our lives that strive to bring us down in one way or another but plod on we must in the fight for spiritual, emtional freedom. The fight for happiness, love and peace. The fight to be respected and treated as a Human Being. What is a human being? Spectacular, divine, sensational, stunning, stupendous, magnificent, remarkable, miraculous to name a few. This is who we are TRULY. The good, bad and the ugly all have these wonderful traits. It’s up to us to tap into our potential and our power for change and growth. When we say enough is enough and decide we want better and deserve better and we walk that path recovery and magic starts happening.
I have been in therapy twice. The first time eleven years ago when I was twenty six, and the therapy I am in now, since six months ago. I have extremely severe early trauma of all types, without getting graphic. My first experience with therapy was awful. Ten sessions of CBT. He stood up and became physically aggressive and threw me out in ten minutes, raising his voice to say I stank and should shower and come back in a week. On the second session towards the end I told him about the abuse. He said it was sad but not part of his treatment plan. The next eight sessions He asked me if I had done certain things to take care of myself and get out more, and I lied and said yes. This only lasted about ten minutes. The rest of the sessions we just chatted to begin with. Soon my interest in military history came up, and we mostly spoke about his experience as a soldier in Vietnam after that.
I did not like him, indeed I found him frightening. But I went back because I was told it was the only option to feeling better. I assumed I had failed at it, and was too fundamentally broken to be helped, and did not try any other therapy for eleven years. But my life did grow progressively worse, culminating in me jumping from a bridge one year ago. I have had other bad experiences with mental health. I saw physical abuse and was fondled by staff in a mental hospital when I was seventeen. I have been told by crisis line workers that I should stop crying and man up, that if I could go five minutes without self harming, that was fine, not to phone back. I had a Psychiatrist, when he was the third person after the social worker and priest about the molestation, stuck his finger within an inch of my face and shout that I should stop drinking. He later divulged confidential medical information to my mother despite me being entirely independent. The formal complaint was found to have merit and is ongoing.
But this is where the confusion comes in. Because six months ago I had started AA and my sister found me my first part time job. I have autism and am on disability. Once I got the job, I began paying for therapy. I was in recovery, committed to change, people in AA and the social worker who was helping me were encouraging.But I was determined to pay, in cash. None of this government or insurance based CBT stuff. I found a relational therapist, since I spent a month reading on different modalities and knew I would hate anything that was not relational/experiential/person centered. And then I looked for a person who seemed kind, knowing I would never go back this time to someone who wasn’t.
And it worked, I mean, therapy has been nothing but helpful this time, to a far greater extent than I could have imagined. I certainly did not come in with a positive attitude. But I paid for the first two sessions in cash, and then she found me ten and then ten more free sessions through a private charity. Then I paid for twenty five sessions in cash, but on a sliding scale, $40 US a session instead of 450-$80 US. She volunteered to see me twice a week. Then I got layed off from my job, and she said we could reduce it to once a week but that she would see me for free until I get my job back in September. Its June now. I just asked her after four weeks of once a week sessions and she said she would have to think about it. But if I ever met a [person whose maybe was a yes, this is her. Certainly she agreed to see me a second time this week.
It sounds like paternalism, but adults do this all the time. Ask someone for something they want that may be a yes or no. And it is not just her helping financially.I have improved. I was doing well at the job. I am one credit from finishing highschool. I am successfully maintaining sobriety. I have a small circle of friends in a new town in a year, despite the difficulties I have faced with that with the autism. I no longer get angry or sad and expect others to deal with it, except when it is reasonable to ask for emotional support, and in a reasonable way.
Despite that being my only attempt at suicide, the suicidal thoughts that have plagued me since childhood, are essentially gone. She got me into a sexual abuse survivors program, a relational, therapeutic/fun summer camp thing for five days that’s actually this Sunday to Friday. but it was only after I found it myself and asked her if it sounded reasonable that she knew about it, giving me the referral was an immediate yes. I phoned her once early on in therapy, blind drunk and suicidal and she spent an hour talking me down. If I get angry at her, and I do, she sometimes apologizes sincerely, and sometimes says she disagrees or does not remember it that way, but sees how I would see it that way. I have threatened to quit explicitly five times, and implicitly every third session. She takes race, class and gender seriously. She respects my rather rough lived experience, or puts on a great act.
We agree about politics, modality, and have a similar way of interacting with our different worlds, or again, she is a great actor. She never told me a thing about herself until ten to fifteen sessions in when I asked. She told me she was only a therapist three years, which I knew from her website, and that she had been in architecture and interior design before. I did not know this but I could have guessed from her degree mentioned on her website, Master of Fine Arts. She said she was married and started a family late, and had two very young children and a husband of five years, in her likely early forties. I asked about her background, and she did ask what I conceived of it to be. I said I figured she must be from real money, old money from the way she acted, as Master of Fine Arts is not a normal people degree. And that I figured she must have some leftist leanings what with the relational training and a general vibe.
After I explained my ideas of it, she divulged her background. Father was a Psychologist for forty years, but he died when she was a baby. Mother ended up with the man who raised her, they were together until she was eight, then they broke up. Her mother was indeed real money. Not all that much anymore, but real old. But her stepfather was a real hippie, from the sixties. When they were together her parents split their lives between fine houses and hippie communes, and when they divorced and went to their own lives full time when she was eight, they kept doing that with her, splitting the year in half. But I wanted to know her background to gain a human connection, I did, and we never talked about her again. She does mention resistance. But she explains that I am resistant, but less than some, and it is fine.
That there are some resistances, if I truly do not want to deal with something, I do not have to, and it may be for the best. If I am resistant and do think the core issue is worth working through that, we can do so at any speed I prefer. We do talk about childhood stuff frequently. She brings it up, sometimes and doesn’t push. I bring it up sometimes, because I feel I need to talk about it. And we work on it, knowing how stupid it is, I fundamentally blamed myself for my childhood abuse. I do not anymore. There is more to do, but it is not unguided meanderings. I mean at every measurable level this is working incredibly well. Are you sure you did not have a terrible, unlikely, but not impossible series of bad fits?. Was this years ago when most practitioners were trained in Freudian or hard line Cognitive Behavioral techniques?. Or is my bad experiences the norm and I just got unusually lucky this time?. I do not want to take from your lived experience. I know about bad mental health, and am so sorry you went through that. But I have read this piece three times now in six months. It speaks to me at such a strong level. But then at another, it is so confusing. Thank you to anyone reading this.
Gurney, I’m glad you found someone who works for you;you’ve definitely been through the mill with atrocious experiences. Their unprofessional behavior is unconscionable atop the other issues you describe. I have a family member with Asperger’s Syndrome, and he also describes professionals and teachers who couldn’t meet him on his level. I have challenges, but very different ones, and the exercises of therapy, the emphasis on problems/defects and the paternalism/authoritarianism (I had modern psychodynamic, feminist-based analysis and group therapy) was absolutely the wrong direction for me. I wrote this piece for the population segment who might feel similarly, since the mental health system too often tries to fit its paradigms to everyone. I’ve done much better on my own, just in the living of life and pursuit of goals.
I think the bottom line is how we’re doing outside the consulting room, and you definitely describe concrete improvements. I’m happy for you. I think the important thing are clients being mindful of life goals and picking advisers who generally help get us there. It sounds like that’s happening for you.
Hello. Thank you so much for the response. I thought I had pushed the button for getting a return message to my email, but I must not have, which is why I am only responding back now. I think we are on the same page. It is incredibly valuable for me to know the difference now. In the past I was harmed by bad professionals. But now I know a good therapist from a person wedded to theory instead of helping the client, what a burnout looks like, and what modality I respond to. Therapy may not be my life forever, I certainly hope not. As good as my current therapist is, we discuss termination even now, though it has only been six months. We both figure this may take 1 year, and it may take 3, when I turn 40, but it likely will not be more. She has never encouraged dependency. Allowed it for the first couple months, I was in a pretty bad place. But as soon as I was a bit stronger, she began pushing, reminding me that help was only helpful for so long, that dealing with my own life is needed. Thanks again for the reply, it is kind. I hope you are well, and that your day is wonderful.
I think much of my bad experience was because the therapists were wedded to theory. They seemed so lost in the fun house that they lost connection to basic human experiences, viewing the zebra instead of the horse. (I understand medical students are instructed to suspect the horse, the common event, before suspecting the rare one.)
Therapy definitely was a lesson to me not to suspend my judgment, and to be discerning about anyone who promises me magic elixir, particularly when it comes to the mind and emotions. Hope all is well with you too.
Finally accumulated links on this page and more for a new Links and Resources tab. A thousand thanks to Eve at https://therapytheclientside.invisionzone.com/
Your first therapists are covert narcissists. Unfortunately, you may find covert narcissistic behavior in certain priests, sports coaches, psychotherapists, parents… This is not a specific psychotherapy problem. As for the therapists blaming their patients, it is frustrating for the client, (it happened to me too), it means the therapist hasn’t worked enough on himself. And obviously a therapist who acts like a parent does not understand what therapy is about.
Therapy is like school, an amazing concept in theory, in practice too many teachers/therapists who have little understanding of how to do their job.
In retrospect, I don’t know how much therapists could have helped me achieve my goals–to be a more competent, centered person at work and in relationships. They only interacted with me in my subordinate role–a protégée delivered life lessons through an eyedropper. They didn’t see me at work or with friends.
One gave me superficial tools for handling conflicts–a mechanical “I feel x when you do y” way of talking with others. I was told to take bubble baths to sooth anxiety. I was sent for a beauty makeover which was lipstick on a –frightened deer.
Friends and co-workers have delivered me a few valuable and sometimes tough lessons when I’ve gone astray. But they were shoulder-to-shoulder with me, observing me in situations a therapist never could.
I’ve dabbled a bit more in the whole counselling thing and I think the main problem is that the most important thing is character and personal characteristics. You need someone with high levels of integrity and that’s not something that is necessarily that easy to judge. It can be faked. Also, an institution will only be as good as those that are leading it so if the training providers are harbouring those with serious unresolved issues or personality disorders then they are likely to recruit 1. more like them to keep the whole dysfunctional wheel in motions and 2. some very vulnerable individuals who have never questioned any authority figures but have tended to internalize the cruelty that has been heaped upon them without questioning its validity.
Here’s a new podcast around a New York psychiatrist who engaged in major financial and emotional exploitation of his client for 29 years.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/the-shrink-next-door/
Though my abuse was nowhere near this extreme, I can recognize the dangers now in surrendering to “the expert.”
Reblogged this on Hurt by Therapy and commented:
This is a good read, the author is well versed and makes great observations and points.